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On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused...
OK
What I meant was:
listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything.
Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc
Then assuming sky toss has no counter,
by that logic,
he cannot list counter
meaning
sky toss = sure win?
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the problem is that when terran have something that is really effective it get nerfed unitll it become not worthy
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On February 22 2013 20:26 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. Well said. Zerg players are NOT abusing the mobility and versatility of their race. As it stands, they are abusing Blizzard's balanced win ratio doctrine. Current situation: 1. Go 3 base expand every pro-game, 2. Lose when they can't defend with small number of roaches/hydra/lings/etc, two queens and mass drones, 3. Whine about unit efficiency, lost mining time, because mid-game, APM requirements, etc etc consequently... 4. Blizzard nerfs the offending composition. 5. Complain that SC2 for Zerg is boring. Edit: As it stands, why aren't Zerg abusing their scouting options and doing early game crawler/queen pushes, the same way Terrans do 3 marine/2 SCV bunker rushes? Queens can keep the crawlers alive with just transfuse, forcing the T to build marauders, instead of more production or tech (economic "damage") and expand behind it. OH right, they don't need to do that since the only available openings for Terran can be dealt with a single cycle of roaches and a single queen.
I second every single word of yours.
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On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win?
I see..
I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on...
So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL...
At least this is my view on this issue.
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On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue.
It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming.
Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running.
What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year.
If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier.
and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate.
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I like the idea of reinstating fransform for hellions, as I said in the previous patch thread I think its better to play with times rather than unit stats for balance.
But now that we are almost at the end of the beta I think that someting is wrong in HOTS:
T is a deffensive and positional race -> wrong -> T needs to be very agressive (drops, all -ins) because in late game P y Z have more advantage.
Z has the movility -> wrong -> grab 3 exp, defend and go to the late game, movility? well maybe a zerling counterattack.
P low numbers of powerfull units -> wrong -> besides some all-ins, its always a 200/200 deathball.
Im a bit dissapointed.
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On February 22 2013 21:58 drkcid wrote:
I like the idea of reinstating fransform for hellions, as I said in the previous patch thread I think its better to play with times rather than unit stats for balance.
But now that we are almost at the end of the beta I think that someting is wrong in HOTS:
T is a deffensive and positional race -> wrong -> T needs to be very agressive (drops, all -ins) because in late game P y Z have more advantage.
Z has the movility -> wrong -> grab 3 exp, defend and go to the late game, movility? well maybe a zerling counterattack.
P low numbers of powerfull units -> wrong -> besides some all-ins, its always a 200/200 deathball.
Im a bit dissapointed.
that's why it's broken
races gameplay is paradoxical
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On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:
[quote]
2 rax+bunker hehe
double starport banshee
mass BFH
bio drop
hellions drop
marine+siege tank push
Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate.
I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright.
Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really.
If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective..
I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2.
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On February 22 2013 21:58 drkcid wrote:
I like the idea of reinstating fransform for hellions, as I said in the previous patch thread I think its better to play with times rather than unit stats for balance.
But now that we are almost at the end of the beta I think that someting is wrong in HOTS:
T is a deffensive and positional race -> wrong -> T needs to be very agressive (drops, all -ins) because in late game P y Z have more advantage.
Z has the movility -> wrong -> grab 3 exp, defend and go to the late game, movility? well maybe a zerling counterattack.
P low numbers of powerfull units -> wrong -> besides some all-ins, its always a 200/200 deathball.
Im a bit dissapointed.
It's a bit better in HotS. You can actually play late-game as Terran in current beta build. I guess it can't be much worse from now on..
Protoss is going to be broken forever, because of warp-in mechanic. Skytoss is currently the new brood/inf.
Z is kinda trying to find ways how to play. Camping into brood/inf doesn't work anymore. Terran has new Thors, mines, powerfull HSM, etc.. Protoss has Tempests.
Viper is really powerful and it enables really strong mid-game for Zerg, we'll see...
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100/100 is really the max they can make a transform upgrade cost imo. Think siege tech, and it's not even in the game anymore.
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Why couldnt they just make the hellbat weaker and have the blueflame upgrade to give it its full capacity????
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Looks like yet another change which adjusts a TIMING instead of adjusting the abilities of units to fight each other.
"Dont let them get there" seems to be the only tactic to balance SC2 which Blizzard knows.
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On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:
[quote]
Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2.
you are wrong on some points imo.
First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game.
Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL.
Sky Terran imo, is the strongest.
the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball.
for more details, I would direct you to read my thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592
My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air.
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WOW...
Ive tried Hellbats build, all in, 1 rak expand into hellbat, Roach counter them easy.. AND now it takes even longer to make them and more expencive to get them?
Im back too 2rak every single tvz.. cause you cant beat them in any other way if you have equal skill.
and now zerg cries cause they cant figure out how to stop pushes in 3-4 days? wow..
What about 4gate whit sentries when terran lose even whit 4 bunkers????? DO WE CRY?
What about Baneling bust? or roach timings when we try mech? WE have DIED AND DIED so many times. and stil they just NERF AND NERF AND NERF.. The skill between equal ranked terran/zerg/toss is So retarded. Im Much better than the same ranked toss /zerg in my league. I played toss for 2 days, and i won ALL my games.. LOL A move whit deathball.. super easy
WHat new do we get in hots? Mines taht is easely countered by observer/overseer? Hellbats that arent that good? the drop was kinda.. Half as good as baneling drop.. but now whit just 2, it sucks.. dropping marines is stil what i prefer and what do most damage. Im wondering if i should cancel my Hots i ordered... Its less than 22 % terran left in Master.. now it will be even less... GOod job patch zergs who A move to win.
guess ill get a warning for this. but its worth it
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Vatican City State431 Posts
They want to force Terran players to reach late game against Protoss or Zergs but they forgot that Terran high tier units are crap. If Terran doesn't do damage early in the game they have very little chances in the late game vsP or vsZ.
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On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:
[quote]
spines, queens
spores, queens
wall off, queens
free spores
mono speed lings
maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air.
Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all!
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On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:
[quote]
spines, queens
spores, queens
wall off, queens
free spores
mono speed lings
maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest.
what? lol, skyterran
races should not have a deathball, there should not be enough minerals to make a deathball, instead the economy is so explosive that you can maxout in the first 13-15 minutes with any race
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On February 22 2013 23:25 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
um..this is a stupid comment.
That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines.
except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air. Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all!
Every pro that has talked about end game sky terran has said it is bad ass, but getting there is impossible. I am interested to see if players can find a way once the metagame for HotS becomes more stable. Zerg and terran seem to be on even footing through most of the game right now, but that could change. Skytoss + storm looks pretty dumb, but a decrease in tempest HP or something along those lines might help out. Once the skytoss “death ball” has a weak link that can be exploited, the game might level out.
It is so hard to tell at this point, with few major events really cutting into the new metagame. It took protoss a really long time to learn to only build 3 colossi before investing in storm. Longer still for terrans to build ghost. Maps have not been adapted to the new units and the races new defensive abilities. Hopefully it opens up map design, which should free up some people try new styles.
No doubt, it is going to be fun to watch.
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On February 22 2013 23:25 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
um..this is a stupid comment.
That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines.
except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air. Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all!
Jesus......He said that zerg deathball is unbeatable and I told him skyterran is even stronger but it is hard to make that transition, for more details he could go and read in that thread
Why are you repeating my points???
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LOVE IT! Now you need to also remove that medivac can heal them. also get rid of that OP tempest range wtf is that..
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EPT
