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On February 22 2013 10:31 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 09:38 Jerom wrote:
I thought Terran was going to be able to do mech vs protoss.....
Honestly, they never even tried making it viable, saying that terran mech would work vs protoss while it clearly wouldn't, gave some stupid siege tank buff that won't change anything, and then called mech viable. I am 100% positive that mech isn't going to be viable against protoss right now, but it seems like Blizzard is not willing to change anything to make it more viable. I'm extremely disappointed with HoTS tbh. If anything the real problem is that they tried. The whole hellbat/warhound mess is/was because Blizzard tried. By now they did terrible damage to other match-ups and mech TvP is about as dead as in WoL. And everyone should see that coming. I dont classify the Warhound as trying at all. A super fast marauder with no stim as a mech unit is about as copy paste no clue 0 attempt of a try I have ever seen in my life.
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I am a terran player, and i have been saying this is what should be done. I think Blue flame needs a buff, to make it be used. I never even get it any more.
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On February 22 2013 10:06 quebecman77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 06:33 A.Alm wrote:
Reapers still rape zerg in the early game. I dough this is enough of a nerf. dont worry , they will nerf reaper soon , then mine after all reaper ''can" kill some worker before the 15 min mark , and in some bad time , force the zerg to make some unit clearly need to be nerfed no ?
The problem with reaper is proxy reaper is so so so so so so so good. The reaper itself would be fine if it didn't come out insanely early and proxied which makes it come even faster.
When you see proxy reaper 9 out of 10 times you know it's to good.
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I agree...reaper is just so so good.
Though I am learning to micro my units better!!
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The interesting part about this proposed change is that it's not even close to impossible to stop. It's not like Terrans are hitting a timing and Zerg just doesn't have the chance to make units to defend. The assertion is that the push is just "too hard" to stop.
It should be noted that this isn't like the blink stalker all-in either. This is an entirely new push/unit, and will take some time to adjust to. In contrast, the blink stalker all-in was already strong in WoL and still used competitively, and the addition of the MSC made it obviously more powerful.
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I wish they would have just nerfed hellbats, moving everything to an upgrade is really unfun design.
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On February 22 2013 12:06 aksfjh wrote:
The interesting part about this proposed change is that it's not even close to impossible to stop. It's not like Terrans are hitting a timing and Zerg just doesn't have the chance to make units to defend. The assertion is that the push is just "too hard" to stop.
It should be noted that this isn't like the blink stalker all-in either. This is an entirely new push/unit, and will take some time to adjust to. In contrast, the blink stalker all-in was already strong in WoL and still used competitively, and the addition of the MSC made it obviously more powerful.
The difference is that Protoss has a very powerful late game (arguably the most powerful) with a wide variety of compositions that their opponent has to react to so they have no reason to do anything other than turtle to the late game. Any blink stalker all in is just a Protoss having some fun with messing with their opponents, although any Protoss can do the build and it is very successful they don't HAVE to do the build and thus it feels more risky and surely less necessary because there is no reason why a Protoss would want to stray from where their most clear advantage is. Terran all ins on the other hand are out of necessity. The Terran race is bandaged together with a hodge podge of cheesey all ins, timing attacks with 30 second windows of viability, and catching the opponent with surprises or balls to the wall greed. Any new units or timings are obviously going to be exploited by Terran players because the last thing they want to do is play a straight up game into a late game composition from either Protoss or Zerg. Until this fundamental issue is fixed so that Terran can feel comfortable in a late game scenario on even footing with their opponents then cheesy play such as this is actually necessary and nerfs will not stop it.
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On February 22 2013 03:18 Blizzard wrote:
The biggest issue in the ZvT early game at the highest pro level seems to be the mass Hellion contain leading into the various potential mass Hellbat combinations right when the Armory comes into play. The time between Terran gaining full map control and then converting all their map control units into straight up power units looks to be too narrow.
I've been saying that Hellbats are a bad idea from day one. A mineral only unit that is one of the best harassment units in the game being able to turn into a unit that is really strong in straight up engagements will end up being ridiculously overpowered.
It just makes no sense as a unit.
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On February 22 2013 04:38 aksfjh wrote:
But oracles are the same? I swear to god I hate the ridiculous amount of bias in this damn community and the balance team at Blizzard. Fucking stupid.
Yep, ever seen an oracle/3 gate all in? Pretty damned hard to stop if T doesn't open with reactored rax into 111 and build a couple of bunkers. The current state of hellbats is fine even with the tech lab upgrade nerf, however, any more changes to the hellbat for the worse will drastically reduce the viability of Mech in TvP. I sincerely hope the maintain the power of hellbats since they are the only decent units that hold reasonable well against a robo composition.
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On February 22 2013 13:50 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 04:38 aksfjh wrote:
But oracles are the same? I swear to god I hate the ridiculous amount of bias in this damn community and the balance team at Blizzard. Fucking stupid. Yep, ever seen an oracle/3 gate all in? Pretty damned hard to stop if T doesn't open with reactored rax into 111 and build a couple of bunkers. The current state of hellbats is fine even with the tech lab upgrade nerf, however, any more changes to the hellbat for the worse will drastically reduce the viability of Mech in TvP. I sincerely hope the maintain the power of hellbats since they are the only decent units that hold reasonable well against a robo composition.
Hmm, as I've said in other threads, seems like the tides have turned against terran. Remember the oh so great 1/1/1 that annihilated toss? Have fun fighting it. Now you'll learn why having 100 different openings that all look the same is a bad thing. Every race has something that can destroy mineral lines in a half second. Banelings/hellbats/oracles. Difference is banelings and oracles have no hp. Hellbats are like me sending a warp in of zealots to your base that have 3/3 upgrades at the start of the game.
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Wow, nerf bat to the knee.
In addition to loading limit to 2 per medivac, hellbats will need research as well.
Ouch.
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On February 22 2013 06:30 MaxViktory wrote:
People complaining about "no early game aggressioin" and nothing happening for 15 minutes forget that reapers are sickeningly good and can be incorporated in a macro build during the first 5 minutes all the way until zergling speed comes out!
Yes, but that will mean that then they'll get nerfed.
I remember when ghost/marine was gaining in popularity then... nerf bat muthafu*ker
Honestly T should just follow Z player's lead and just MACRO EVARYGAEM.
Then whine when they lose to oracles.
Then Protoss will get nerfed. 
Welcome to the wonderful world of POLITICS.
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Kinda wish they'd just buff Zerg early game to deal with this rather than nerf Terran. Would be nice to have an option that's not an all-in or boring 'drone for 15 minutes'.
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So wait, can you still produce hellbats out of the factory (with an armory ofc) without the upgrade?
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On February 22 2013 16:02 Lobotomist wrote:
So wait, can you still produce hellbats out of the factory (with an armory ofc) without the upgrade?
Yes but you cant transform the 2 units back and forth.
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Wow, the Terran whiners in this thread are completely out of control...Let's get a count of what changed early game with Zerg and Terran from WoL to HotS:
Terran:
- Widow Mines
- No Siege upgrade
- Medivac Boost
- Reaper auto-heal
- Hellbats
Zerg:
- Tier 1 Overlord Speed
- Tier 1 Burrow
Yeah, clearly Blizzard is trying to destroy early game Terran.
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Obviously it would have been better to have the same damages for the hellbat and the hellion. Thus, blue flame upgrade would be used again.
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That's a good change. Now if they reverted that horribly stupid tank buff from patch 11 you might actually see aggression from Zerg in ZvT.
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On February 22 2013 17:22 MilesTeg wrote:
That's a good change. Now if they reverted that horribly stupid tank buff from patch 11 you might actually see aggression from Zerg in ZvT.
Why would they do that when they feel still comfortable with their mid and late game armies?
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EPT
