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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7923874068
"Now that the highest skilled pro players have been playing the beta for a few weeks, we've been gathering pro level ladder data, pro feedback, as well as watching all the HotS tournaments/show matches that have been going on.
Out of everything we're seeing and hearing from pro players, we think the most important issue we need to deal with rather quickly is early game ZvT.
The biggest issue in the ZvT early game at the highest pro level seems to be the mass Hellion contain leading into the various potential mass Hellbat combinations right when the Armory comes into play. The time between Terran gaining full map control and then converting all their map control units into straight up power units looks to be too narrow.
Even without this threat, Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg. We're most likely going to add the Hellion to Hellbat transformation upgrade back to the Factory Tech lab with an Armory requirement. This will give Zerg more time to scout and prep against possible Hellbat based attacks when they see lots of Hellions in play."
I agree with this change although I am a terran player. i play zerg as well, and feel that the battle hellions were coming out too early for their base strength. It's not in effect yet, but what are your thoughtS?
FOR REFERENCE:
think its this: SCUpgrade/Transformation Servos
in which case it would be 100/100 and 110 second research
110 seconds is the same length as Combat Shields
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as someone whos been f5'ing reddit and tl for a week to finally get a balance update i must say this is a reasonable change, dont think its enough though yet
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Seems very reasonable if the upgrade doesn't take forever or cost a mint. I am glad they are keeping the unit powerful, since it is a back bone unit and should be viable.
Also - this is clearly a quick fix to solve one specific, early game issue, rather than a full patch for all three races. I am sure they are looking at other stuff.
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On February 22 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:
Seems very reasonable if the upgrade doesn't take forever or cost a mint. I am glad they are keeping the unit powerful, since it is a back bone unit and should be viable.
Also - this is clearly a quick fix to solve one specific, early game issue, rather than a full patch for all three races. I am sure they are looking at other stuff.
The wording seems to me to imply it will return at the same time/cost
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On February 22 2013 03:25 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:
Seems very reasonable if the upgrade doesn't take forever or cost a mint. I am glad they are keeping the unit powerful, since it is a back bone unit and should be viable.
Also - this is clearly a quick fix to solve one specific, early game issue, rather than a full patch for all three races. I am sure they are looking at other stuff. The wording seems to me to imply it will return at the same time/cost
You should include that in the OP for people to reference, since I don't even remember what it was. Still sounds like a good fix to a rising problem.
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how about those afterburners! The hellbats nerf are ok but the medivac speedboost time cut by 50%.
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On February 22 2013 03:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:25 c0sm0naut wrote:On February 22 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:
Seems very reasonable if the upgrade doesn't take forever or cost a mint. I am glad they are keeping the unit powerful, since it is a back bone unit and should be viable.
Also - this is clearly a quick fix to solve one specific, early game issue, rather than a full patch for all three races. I am sure they are looking at other stuff. The wording seems to me to imply it will return at the same time/cost You should include that in the OP for people to reference, since I don't even remember what it was. Still sounds like a good fix to a rising problem.
I don't remember either, haha. Will be happy to if some shows me the numbers
Edit: and yes I agree. I think tvt will benefit the most however
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But T will still be able to produce hellbats with an armory, right? Well they'll just rush to armory faster.
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Sounds reasonable to me. I like that getting the upgrade is a semi-commitment to mech play. At least for the early game, since it requires a factory to be attached to a tech lab for that period of time.
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On February 22 2013 03:29 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:27 Plansix wrote:On February 22 2013 03:25 c0sm0naut wrote:On February 22 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:
Seems very reasonable if the upgrade doesn't take forever or cost a mint. I am glad they are keeping the unit powerful, since it is a back bone unit and should be viable.
Also - this is clearly a quick fix to solve one specific, early game issue, rather than a full patch for all three races. I am sure they are looking at other stuff. The wording seems to me to imply it will return at the same time/cost You should include that in the OP for people to reference, since I don't even remember what it was. Still sounds like a good fix to a rising problem. I don't remember either, haha. Will be happy to if some shows me the numbers Edit: and yes I agree. I think tvt will benefit the most however
It was called Transformation Servos and the cost was 100/100 with an easy to remember 110 build time. I am sure someone will have a problem with it, but Hellbats are pretty awesome.
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For reference metabolic boost is also 110 seconds I think.
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On February 22 2013 03:37 MstrJinbo wrote:For reference metabolic boost is also 110 seconds I think.
You are correct sir, the speedy zergling agrees. FYI, combat shield, also 110 Blizseconds to become real.
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United States7483 Posts
This feel like a good change, Hellbats are such a ridiculously powerful modification to hellions to not require an actual upgrade, and this is a good way to weaken early timings without nerfing them at all in the mid game or end game.
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Definitely a good start.
I worry, as the metagame continues to evolve, that both Hellbats and Widow Mines, when incorporated with a bio ball, become too efficient against all Zerg early and mid-game options. Roach/Hydra seems to be the most effective answer so hopefully a lesser threat of Hellbat all-ins can allow Zerg players to set up an economy to properly support Roach/Hydra.
Still hoping for a Hydra boost at some point, +1 range ftw. 
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Hellbat transformation requiring upgrade.
Siege tech does not require upgrade.
WHAT IS MY WORLD
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Good to see they are making reasonable adjustments, instead of nuking the unit into oblivion in a single patch.
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On February 22 2013 03:43 shindigs wrote:
Hellbat transformation requiring upgrade.
Siege tech does not require upgrade.
WHAT IS MY WORLD
i hope they reintroduce siege tech as well, it creates so many tense timing situations in tvz as well as tvt and it never achieved what it was supposed to, which was make mech more viable in tvp
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From what I've heard from Pro-streams is that PvZ lategame is pretty imbalanced due to Voidrays/Tempest being op or whatever.
Hope Blizzard will do something about it soon enough! The game will be so much funnier to watch if it's well balanced.
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still 2 hellbats per medivac?
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwoooooooowwowowowo! ...at least no dmg nerf.
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On February 22 2013 03:42 ShamW0W wrote:Definitely a good start. I worry, as the metagame continues to evolve, that both Hellbats and Widow Mines, when incorporated with a bio ball, become too efficient against all Zerg early and mid-game options. Roach/Hydra seems to be the most effective answer so hopefully a lesser threat of Hellbat all-ins can allow Zerg players to set up an economy to properly support Roach/Hydra. Still hoping for a Hydra boost at some point, +1 range ftw.
But is that a problem? I don't think so. I mean, let's take a look at broodlord infestor in wol: it seems to be very efficiënt against all terran lategame options. Isn't it all fine in wol?
Let's also take a look at the early game in wol:
- terran allins: not viable, even when zergs play greedy
- zerg allins: viable when terrans play greedy
The midgame in wol where it's even, tough terran requires much more micro.
But that's all fine isn't it? So why isn't it fine in hots?
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should just go back to siege tanks requiring an upgrade and leaving hell bats... not sure though.
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On February 22 2013 03:48 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:42 ShamW0W wrote:Definitely a good start. I worry, as the metagame continues to evolve, that both Hellbats and Widow Mines, when incorporated with a bio ball, become too efficient against all Zerg early and mid-game options. Roach/Hydra seems to be the most effective answer so hopefully a lesser threat of Hellbat all-ins can allow Zerg players to set up an economy to properly support Roach/Hydra. Still hoping for a Hydra boost at some point, +1 range ftw. But is that a problem? I don't think so. I mean, let's take a look at broodlord infestor in wol: it seems to be very efficiënt against all terran lategame options. Isn't it all fine in wol?
Let's also look at Protoss. The last leg of WoL was almost all about immortal or phoenix/zealot all ins because P had no cost efficient answer to infestor brood lord outside of vortex, which was dictated by luck more than anything else.
Also, i'm not sure why there's still no mention of sky protoss at it's current state. Are they still collecting data?
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So now you will need on top of the armory a second factory with a tech lab,spend 100m/100g and wait another 110seconds before you can use hellbats...
Good luck holding zerg allins with smart zergs using speedlords to detonate the mines or preventing zergs going 3base 80drones at 8-9min.
They keep adding more and more special rules and conditions for helions and hellbats, they may as well seperate the unit and be done with it.
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Good, but what about skytoss ? What about reverting the useless space cargo nerf ?
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Ton of problem left but they are doing reasonable step, I can deal with it
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The biggest issue in the ZvT early game at the highest pro level seems to be the mass Hellion contain leading into the various potential mass Hellbat combinations right when the Armory comes into play. The time between Terran gaining full map control and then converting all their map control units into straight up power units looks to be too narrow.
...well what did you think would happen when you designed that unit, blizzard?
Like..... I don't understand the logic behind blizzard's balance decisions at all. They realize that the free unit mechanic in general sucks (as evident by the tons of Infested Terran nerfs towards the end of WoL's life in an attempt to bring them into late-game balance), so what do they do in HotS? They add another zerg free unit generator. Awesome.
They realize that single-target disables (i.e. neutral parasite) are too powerful on a spellcaster that also has good crowd control (fungal growth). So what do they do in HotS? They add a viper with two of the same abilities, Abduct and blinding cloud. They make no sense at all.
Terran's in WoL have been enjoying their map control in TvZ with their hellion openings for over a year now, but since those openings have the ability to almost completely leave zerg in the dark, Queen range was buffed to compensate and give zergs more of an ability to play greedier early game and respond to harass more easily. Blizzard, in seeing this, decides to give hellions an upgraded form, so that terrans can capitalize even more on zerg's lack of scouting. What's next, giving queens siege mode?
It's like they have a complete inability to learn from their mistakes. I really want HotS to be a good game. I really do, it has such potential. But blizzard's level of incompetence is just remarkably depressing
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Called it, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398560
At a guess, Blizzard can replace the Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade with Transformation Servos, remove the Armory requirement from Transformation Servos and revert the Hellbat supply nerf in order to find a balance between the resources invested into the tech structure, the production capacity of the Factory and the timing attack. As is, requiring an Armory for the Transformation Servos upgrade probably removes Hellbats from TvP altogether, so now it's a Reactory/Factory, 4xWidow Mine and 1xMedivac Drop at 10 minutes at worst.
It's onto Mass Widow Mine strategy with a Hellbat transition as it stands, I'd bet money Widow Mines will end up with having Burrow removed in favor of a Siege Tank esq transformation and be given +1 Range before the expansion ships.
Anyway, huge sigh of relief that Blizzard pulled the trigger on Hellbats, I was really worried they'd think that awful supply nerf would've actually solved the "problem."
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And blue flame??
Reverse cargo space!
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On February 22 2013 03:45 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:43 shindigs wrote:
Hellbat transformation requiring upgrade.
Siege tech does not require upgrade.
WHAT IS MY WORLD i hope they reintroduce siege tech as well, it creates so many tense timing situations in tvz as well as tvt and it never achieved what it was supposed to, which was make mech more viable in tvp
It did exactly that.
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That basically sums up HotS
I think this change is fair, although I'm wondering if the medivac cargo space should be looked at again. If this is meant to delay hellbats entirely, getting 4 back in a medivac seems fair (and frankly less awkward).
Also for the record, they are putting this patch out way too soon. They should at least wait for the GSTL pre season to finish. Their new philosophy seems to be to give no time for players to find solutions.
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T.O.P
469 Posts
ghost snipe or the nuke time shoud be buff. Ghost is not a really good 3 tier units compare to the others.The hellbat change, i don't really like but i'll try to get over it haha.
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When the game will be more figured out and matches will get longer, we will see if terrans can hold their ground in late game against the new toys Z/P received.
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This is exactly why I was against the cargo change. The unit is so broken that they were going to have to change it anyway, and now the cargo change is a weird artifact of that. But of course Blizzard never reverts any change they make.
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I'm okay with it but i feel they should revert the cargo change if they add this upgrade.
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This would be acceptable if they reverted the cargo space change.
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Are there any Terran all-ins left in TvZ?
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Good change. I also think that reapers are kind of a problem early game, but maybe that can be dealt with with many queens?
I just want to say that I love ZvP atm. The multitude of strategies that are viable for both sides make for very exciting and different games. Such a change from WoL! Z seems a bit too strong through out the game up to the point when P has enough bases to turtle to an unbeatable air army. But fun to play!!! And even more fun to watch!!!!!!
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Well that didnt last long, Why don't they just buff Hydras to counter Hellbats instead? Looks like Terran will be going tech lab first now.
HoTs will end up just like WoL at this rate, 2 players not attacking until 15 mins into the game and playing sim city <sigh>
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After having seen this Hellion contain get crushed by a few proZergs everytime, I conclude they have watched the wrong Zerg Pros. But the Zerg players looked like expecting this build only.
Bringing back the upgrade was only a matter of time though, as the transformation without a warning felt always strange. Felt a bit like Banelings that would be there as soon as the Nest finishes without the morph time.
It is only a matter of time until everyone is used to dealing with the early aggression stuff Protoss and Terran can pull of. Then the Zerg lategame power will be back, with the now added midgame power, included with new toy upgrades they have in the early game. The good point is that Toss and Terran can go into their late game compositions easier that is pretty strong against lategame Zerg.
The question is what will Blizzard/Mapmakers do to this evolution, that looks exactly like Wings. In Wings everyone messed up together. But Blizzard got better, so one can only hope that they will find the right solution.
But it seems to be either Zerg or Terran that will see a 20% rate above Bronze for the first Year.
They plan on bringing in Neo Planet S to the HotS Ladder though. That will bring winrates for Zerg up. So they are planning ahead for worst case !
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On February 22 2013 03:48 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:42 ShamW0W wrote:Definitely a good start. I worry, as the metagame continues to evolve, that both Hellbats and Widow Mines, when incorporated with a bio ball, become too efficient against all Zerg early and mid-game options. Roach/Hydra seems to be the most effective answer so hopefully a lesser threat of Hellbat all-ins can allow Zerg players to set up an economy to properly support Roach/Hydra. Still hoping for a Hydra boost at some point, +1 range ftw. But is that a problem? I don't think so. I mean, let's take a look at broodlord infestor in wol: it seems to be very efficiënt against all terran lategame options. Isn't it all fine in wol? Let's also take a look at the early game in wol: - terran allins: not viable, even when zergs play greedy - zerg allins: viable when terrans play greedy The midgame in wol where it's even, tough terran requires much more micro. But that's all fine isn't it? So why isn't it fine in hots?
Nothing you posted makes any sense. Anyone who tries to argue that Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor was fine in WoL was either ignorant or completely biased.
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I agree with the hellbat coming too early. I have seen several Zerg GM and pro players lose to this early push.
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That's awful :'(
I hope it's 100/100, and not 150/150 or more, that shit is expensive...
It was really cool to be able to just give a reactor to your factory and add hellbats to your bio comp. A tech lab upgrade destroys that.
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Losing to a push is fine though, new strategies can catch people by surprise. The larger problems are typically ones that, even if scouted and properly reacted to, still come out on top.
I haven't seen any matches from the Korean qualifiers but I suspect that Protoss late game being clearly the best right now is a problem. (same issue with Zerg in WoL) I'd love to see Blizzard open to a game where it's not possible to sustain 200/200 armies on 3-bases but that's another discussion.
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Maybe blueflame should increase the hellbat damage to it's full porential.
Right now damage is 18 + 12 vs light. Maybe the starting damage should just be something like 10 + 12 or 12 + 12 and blueflame increases this base damage by 8 / 6. So it would be a bit more of an investment to go into hellbat play and also some more time would be required for them to reach their full potential.
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and what´s up with proxy rax reaper ???????? O.O
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Soon to be anounced Hellbat removed :D, oh Blizz you so silly
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Why can't they just increase price and/or decrease damage for hellbats? I mean it's quite obvious it's far too strong unit for such a little price.
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But oracles are the same? I swear to god I hate the ridiculous amount of bias in this damn community and the balance team at Blizzard. Fucking stupid.
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Now bring back seige-tech and make hardened shields an upgrade...
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On February 22 2013 04:38 aksfjh wrote:
But oracles are the same? I swear to god I hate the ridiculous amount of bias in this damn community and the balance team at Blizzard. Fucking stupid.
Oracle feels protossy, it's fine.
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On February 22 2013 04:38 ALPINA wrote:
Why can't they just increase price and/or decrease damage for hellbats? I mean it's quite obvious it's far too strong unit for such a little price.
How is it obvious? They are slow, clumsy and easily outmicroed by any ranged unit, they should pack a punch for them even to be worth building. Every nerf to hellbats is a nerf to mech and more mass drop bio play in every MU. The unit needs to be good for mech to remain viable.
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On February 22 2013 04:27 ZenithM wrote:
That's awful :'(
I hope it's 100/100, and not 150/150 or more, that shit is expensive...
It was really cool to be able to just give a reactor to your factory and add hellbats to your bio comp. A tech lab upgrade destroys that.
You can still make hellbats from the factory once you have an armory. All this does is delay the ability to transform between forms for both the hellion and hellbat.
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Yes, let's bring ZvT back to WOL status where Zergs can macro freely off three bases for 15 minutes with practically no fear of dying.
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Slowly but surely every terran unit will be nerfed to shitbits except the marine, marauder, and mule. A widow mine nerf is probably coming up next.
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On February 22 2013 03:45 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:43 shindigs wrote:
Hellbat transformation requiring upgrade.
Siege tech does not require upgrade.
WHAT IS MY WORLD i hope they reintroduce siege tech as well, it creates so many tense timing situations in tvz as well as tvt and it never achieved what it was supposed to, which was make mech more viable in tvp
Personally I'd say that it does make mech a ton more viable in TvP. You can actually get two tanks out in time to deal with gateway/blink all ins.
This is coming from my personal experience btw.
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I don't understand their approach one bit @_@ help me please~ They see a unit is quite strong at a certain timing so they change the timing at which it is incredibly strong at in the hopes that somehow your units, all of which suck versus that unit, magically gain some powers at a later timing.
We've seen this approach numerous times whether it be with blink, stim, warpgate or whatever else. They assume by shifting the production time of something it makes a specific timing "less powerful" which is silly otherwise it wouldn't be a timing attack in the first place >.>! Essentially, when they change the time this upgrade hits they expect the timing to fade away and the unit to somehow mesh into the game seamlessly without ever addressing the real issue... the unit itself!!! xD.... Just think back to how many times they patched warpgate timing and how it affected PvP if you're not understanding what I'm saying.
to the poster directly below me: probably because mech is broken ...
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I don't know how they can focus that much on terran things with the current protoss state on the beta. But they're the bosses I guess.
A hellbat change would be good, you can get them too early for what they're worth. But even after the nerf, it'll still be a nonsense biomechologicanic unit.
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On February 22 2013 04:43 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 04:38 ALPINA wrote:
Why can't they just increase price and/or decrease damage for hellbats? I mean it's quite obvious it's far too strong unit for such a little price. How is it obvious? They are slow, clumsy and easily outmicroed by any ranged unit, they should pack a punch for them even to be worth building. Every nerf to hellbats is a nerf to mech and more mass drop bio play in every MU. The unit needs to be good for mech to remain viable.
They are the strongest 100 mineral unit in the game. That's all they cost is minerals and when terran is going mech that is pretty much free. They are to strong for being only 100 minerals. If it cost gas then it would be different, but it doesn't and I don't see how they could make it cost gas either.
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On February 22 2013 04:54 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 04:43 Bagi wrote:On February 22 2013 04:38 ALPINA wrote:
Why can't they just increase price and/or decrease damage for hellbats? I mean it's quite obvious it's far too strong unit for such a little price. How is it obvious? They are slow, clumsy and easily outmicroed by any ranged unit, they should pack a punch for them even to be worth building. Every nerf to hellbats is a nerf to mech and more mass drop bio play in every MU. The unit needs to be good for mech to remain viable. They are the strongest 100 mineral unit in the game. That's all they cost is minerals and when terran is going mech that is pretty much free. They are to strong for being only 100 minerals. If it cost gas then it would be different, but it doesn't and I don't see how they could make it cost gas either.
Out of all the 100 mineral units, one has to be the strongest.
Is the problem that mech is OP and unbeatable? If that's the case, sure take a look at the hellbat. But I don't think a unit being cheap yet very effective is a problem unless it creates actual imbalanced situations.
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On February 22 2013 03:59 Jonas wrote:Terran's in WoL have been enjoying their map control in TvZ with their hellion openings for over a year now, but since those openings have the ability to almost completely leave zerg in the dark, Queen range was buffed to compensate and give zergs more of an ability to play greedier early game and respond to harass more easily. Blizzard, in seeing this, decides to give hellions an upgraded form, so that terrans can capitalize even more on zerg's lack of scouting. What's next, giving queens siege mode?
Why do you think blizzard added hellbats to capitalize on zerg's lack of scouting? Hellbats were added to protect tanks from lings and zealots.
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Man, Terran upgrades are going to be such a mess.. :-( I hope they at least merge it with blue-flame or reintroduce air merged upgrades (though more expensive) or something like that. It really seems very off to have Hellbat upgrade at tech lab requiring armory and free siege mode, what are they doing.. :/
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On February 22 2013 04:43 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 04:27 ZenithM wrote:
That's awful :'(
I hope it's 100/100, and not 150/150 or more, that shit is expensive...
It was really cool to be able to just give a reactor to your factory and add hellbats to your bio comp. A tech lab upgrade destroys that. You can still make hellbats from the factory once you have an armory. All this does is delay the ability to transform between forms for both the hellion and hellbat.
Oh right, didn't pay enough attention :D
I'm cool with it then, that's absolutely fine.
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In the current situation, this really shouldn't affect macro games at all, which makes it a good change imo. You'll be getting a tech lab for tank production anyways, and at least currently, you don't need to get siege mode, which means you don't have to worry about splitting research time.
Do hellbats benefit from blueflame? I don't believe so, right?
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On February 22 2013 03:45 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:43 shindigs wrote:
Hellbat transformation requiring upgrade.
Siege tech does not require upgrade.
WHAT IS MY WORLD i hope they reintroduce siege tech as well, it creates so many tense timing situations in tvz as well as tvt and it never achieved what it was supposed to, which was make mech more viable in tvp
I think that cutting the siege upgrade was a very good change. It's now way more viable to get some tanks out for early defense in TvP. I don't think it causes problems in TvZ and TvT at all.
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I would also look at the Medivac speed boost ability. The drop play coming out of skilled players with this almost spamable ability makes their early drops REALLY powerful. I think the fairest adjustment would be to give the ability an energy cost, nothing obcene, maybe 25 energy per use. This way there is a tradeoff, more mobility/faster medivacs all over the place or more healing for the units involved in the drop or something in between.
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On February 22 2013 05:10 Alryk wrote:
In the current situation, this really shouldn't affect macro games at all, which makes it a good change imo. You'll be getting a tech lab for tank production anyways, and at least currently, you don't need to get siege mode, which means you don't have to worry about splitting research time.
Do hellbats benefit from blueflame? I don't believe so, right?
Wrong. The inability for Terran to put adequate pressure on Zerg makes EVERY game a "macro game." However, it's not a real macro game, it's more of a sit around and wait game, which is awful for everybody.
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On February 22 2013 05:11 Phoobie wrote:
I would also look at the Medivac speed boost ability. The drop play coming out of skilled players with this almost spamable ability makes their early drops REALLY powerful. I think the fairest adjustment would be to give the ability an energy cost, nothing obcene, maybe 25 energy per use. This way there is a tradeoff, more mobility/faster medivacs all over the place or more healing for the units involved in the drop or something in between.
Sorry but isn't incredibly skilled players abusing the shit out of units to achieve magical stuff exactly what people expect to see?
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On February 22 2013 05:16 FancyCaTSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 05:11 Phoobie wrote:
I would also look at the Medivac speed boost ability. The drop play coming out of skilled players with this almost spamable ability makes their early drops REALLY powerful. I think the fairest adjustment would be to give the ability an energy cost, nothing obcene, maybe 25 energy per use. This way there is a tradeoff, more mobility/faster medivacs all over the place or more healing for the units involved in the drop or something in between. Sorry but isn't incredibly skilled players abusing the shit out of units to achieve magical stuff exactly what people expect to see?
Only if it's Zerg or Protoss. When Terran does it, it's broken. Haven't you been watching WoL for 3 years?
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Good shit, I hate losing my armory and not being able to transform, upgrade makes perfect sense.
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It's good that they don't do random changes anymore and actually started to balance the game.
Hell. It's about time.
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Well experiencing a lot of early push i think the game is more interesting this way (with early push), even if i'm loosing a lot cause i try new things, and i have to be more confident about new mechanic and map pool.The problem here isn't the hellbat free upgrade, it's the fact terran can combine units with free upgrade for insane early push. Free Siege tank + Free hellbat is too much, but i think it's more interesting for the game to let the freeupgrade to hellbat and revert the siege mode upgrade
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On February 22 2013 04:51 Nimix wrote:
I don't know how they can focus that much on terran things with the current protoss state on the beta. But they're the bosses I guess.
A hellbat change would be good, you can get them too early for what they're worth. But even after the nerf, it'll still be a nonsense biomechologicanic unit.
Because even tho' Airtoss is really, really good at the moment, it's no where near as over powered and meta warping as the Hellbat was for TvZ and TvT. I think balancing PvZ Airtoss may be as simple as re-adding Scourge to chase down Mass Tempests.
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On February 22 2013 05:30 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 04:51 Nimix wrote:
I don't know how they can focus that much on terran things with the current protoss state on the beta. But they're the bosses I guess.
A hellbat change would be good, you can get them too early for what they're worth. But even after the nerf, it'll still be a nonsense biomechologicanic unit. Because even tho' Airtoss is really, really good at the moment, it's no where near as over powered and meta warping as the Hellbat was for TvZ and TvT. I think balancing PvZ Airtoss may be as simple as re-adding Scourge to chase down Mass Tempests.
The last drop nerf actually did a lot to mitigate the hellbat issues. Nothing has been said or done about airtoss, despite the very, very obvious issues it's causing in EVERY Protoss matchup.
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Honestly this change seriously sucks. Every strong early game push is virtually nerfed, now people are also calling for reaper nerfs and speed boost nerfs. So basically u want to be able to turtle up for 30 minutes and have 1 deathball clash and the game is over. Fun game
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Yeah experienced like mass hydra 3/3 + 10 infestor full energy vs air toss >>>>two or three units killeds, IT are insta depop it's just brain dead stupid and i was thinking of scourge return: stupid a+click vs stupid a+click, cause as it is now, i feel there is no good answer to air toss and i tried everything
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On February 22 2013 04:43 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 04:38 ALPINA wrote:
Why can't they just increase price and/or decrease damage for hellbats? I mean it's quite obvious it's far too strong unit for such a little price. How is it obvious? They are slow, clumsy and easily outmicroed by any ranged unit, they should pack a punch for them even to be worth building. Every nerf to hellbats is a nerf to mech and more mass drop bio play in every MU. The unit needs to be good for mech to remain viable.
Their speed is normal, just like tanks, you can't expect them to be as fast as hellions lol. And yeah they seem too good for their price - 30 Aoe damage vs. light is quite insane for 100 mineral unit.
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On February 22 2013 05:30 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 04:51 Nimix wrote:
I don't know how they can focus that much on terran things with the current protoss state on the beta. But they're the bosses I guess.
A hellbat change would be good, you can get them too early for what they're worth. But even after the nerf, it'll still be a nonsense biomechologicanic unit. Because even tho' Airtoss is really, really good at the moment, it's no where near as over powered and meta warping as the Hellbat was for TvZ and TvT. I think balancing PvZ Airtoss may be as simple as re-adding Scourge to chase down Mass Tempests.
Adding a unit when there's 10 days of beta left. A very simple process.
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On February 22 2013 05:32 BigAsia wrote:
Honestly this change seriously sucks. Every strong early game push is virtually nerfed, now people are also calling for reaper nerfs and speed boost nerfs. So basically u want to be able to turtle up for 30 minutes and have 1 deathball clash and the game is over. Fun game
I agree with you, i feel the reaper timing is interesting now, not oo overpowered nor bad, a good player can take a few drones and disturb the zerg concentration wich is a good thing
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On February 22 2013 05:16 FancyCaTSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 05:11 Phoobie wrote:
I would also look at the Medivac speed boost ability. The drop play coming out of skilled players with this almost spamable ability makes their early drops REALLY powerful. I think the fairest adjustment would be to give the ability an energy cost, nothing obcene, maybe 25 energy per use. This way there is a tradeoff, more mobility/faster medivacs all over the place or more healing for the units involved in the drop or something in between. Sorry but isn't incredibly skilled players abusing the shit out of units to achieve magical stuff exactly what people expect to see?
What exactly can a defending player do against a skilled player using the speed boost to the utmost, These medivacs zoom across the map, zoom past static defense and then can pick up and zoom out without any loss then repeat. The defending player can negate most of the damage from a single drop but the fact that it happens over and over and over with minimal loss will wear down the defender and give the aggressor total map control with a large advantage in resources and tech.
the reason I proposed an energy cost to the booster is so that, with energy, the medivacs can continue to do what they do and let good players do awsome drops but they'll eventually run out of gas which gives the defender oppertunity to ward off as much as possible and then exploit the vulnerability when they are out of energy to create more dynamic, back and forth gameplay where BOTH players can wow us with their skill.
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United States7166 Posts
Fixing the early game ZvT is definitely the important issue, and this will help a lot for sure. But one of my main issues with the matchup won't be effected..
From a design perspective and not a balance one, I really wish there was a way to beat end-game mech army without massing air. You would think that vipers would be the way to support your ground army to beat mech, but so far that does not seem to be the case. For one, they're extremely vulnerable to vikings and widow mines, and the other major issue is just the lack of any reasonable ground army compositions. Roaches, zerglings, banelings, hydras, swarm hosts, ultras, infestors, all these units are simply way too ineffective vs a proper maxed mech army. Zerg's only option is mass brood/corruptor which is so boring for everyone involved (both players, and any spectators). I hope I'm wrong, and that zergs just haven't figured out how to use vipers/support them correctly yet or something. But it doesn't seem to be the case
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Couldnt they revert the changes of the previous patch now? I mean the issue of a early Hellbatdrop wont be there since it comes 2 minutes later.
@Zelniq: Zerg units (or units in general) arent supposed to be effective vs Mech. I dont see an issue since a good mixture and cleverly used units still beat mech. Vipers are more than awesome and revert this so much that mech seems to be very bad vs a good viper+X composition.
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On February 22 2013 05:38 ALPINA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 04:43 Bagi wrote:On February 22 2013 04:38 ALPINA wrote:
Why can't they just increase price and/or decrease damage for hellbats? I mean it's quite obvious it's far too strong unit for such a little price. How is it obvious? They are slow, clumsy and easily outmicroed by any ranged unit, they should pack a punch for them even to be worth building. Every nerf to hellbats is a nerf to mech and more mass drop bio play in every MU. The unit needs to be good for mech to remain viable. Their speed is normal, just like tanks, you can't expect them to be as fast as hellions lol. And yeah they seem too good for their price - 30 Aoe damage vs. light is quite insane for 100 mineral unit.
At one point, you could consider 2.25 movement speed normal, back when maps were tiny and whatnot. Now, if the speed isn't 2.75 or above, it's a really slow unit. Think about how much Zergs complained about hydras being 2.25 off creep. Hellbats are slow, bottom line.
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On February 22 2013 05:44 Zelniq wrote:
Fixing the early game ZvT is definitely the important issue, and this will help a lot for sure. But one of my main issues with the matchup won't be effected..
From a design perspective and not a balance one, I really wish there was a way to beat end-game mech army without massing air. You would think that vipers would be the way to support your ground army to beat mech, but so far that does not seem to be the case. For one, they're extremely vulnerable to vikings and widow mines, and the other major issue is just the lack of any reasonable ground army compositions. Roaches, zerglings, banelings, hydras, swarm hosts, ultras, infestors, all these units are simply way too ineffective vs a proper maxed mech army. Zerg's only option is mass brood/corruptor which is so boring for everyone involved (both players, and any spectators). I hope I'm wrong, and that zergs just haven't figured out how to use vipers/support them correctly yet or something. But it doesn't seem to be the case
Classic Zelniq. Early game TvZ was being fixed. They just now committed to breaking it again.
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On February 22 2013 04:45 Empirimancer wrote:
Yes, let's bring ZvT back to WOL status where Zergs can macro freely off three bases for 15 minutes with practically no fear of dying.
No, let's get back to the early WOL status where every Zerg lose the game in the first 10 minutes?
On February 22 2013 04:08 T.O.P wrote:
ghost snipe or the nuke time shoud be buff. Ghost is not a really good 3 tier units compare to the others.The hellbat change, i don't really like but i'll try to get over it haha.
Maybe because Ghost isn't tier 3 unit at all?
And I love how Terran players are still whining about the Oracles, but when one Banshee come into my base and I don't have the Spore Crawler, it is all nice and dandy. You need one turret per base to shut down 1-2 Oracles, and Oracles are 150/150/3 units, or you need 1 Mine for 1 Oracle.
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On February 22 2013 05:44 Tppz! wrote:
Couldnt they revert the changes of the previous patch now? I mean the issue of a early Hellbatdrop wont be there since it comes 2 minutes later.
It does not come two minutes later, you still can produce Hellbats once you fielded an armory, you just cannot transform them to hellion and back. This nerf needs to stay.
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On February 22 2013 05:44 Zelniq wrote:
Fixing the early game ZvT is definitely the important issue, and this will help a lot for sure. But one of my main issues with the matchup won't be effected..
From a design perspective and not a balance one, I really wish there was a way to beat end-game mech army without massing air. You would think that vipers would be the way to support your ground army to beat mech, but so far that does not seem to be the case. For one, they're extremely vulnerable to vikings and widow mines, and the other major issue is just the lack of any reasonable ground army compositions. Roaches, zerglings, banelings, hydras, swarm hosts, ultras, infestors, all these units are simply way too ineffective vs a proper maxed mech army. Zerg's only option is mass brood/corruptor which is so boring for everyone involved (both players, and any spectators). I hope I'm wrong, and that zergs just haven't figured out how to use vipers/support them correctly yet or something. But it doesn't seem to be the case
This is not my experience at all. I find Swarm Hosts, Ultralisk or Hydra/Roach supported by Vipers to be very effective vs Mech. I mean, sure, your Vipers are going to die eventually to Mines and Vikings, but not before they land their Clouds. And once they land them, basically whole Terran army gets overrun. It's absolutely ok for Zerg to sacrifice Vipers in exchange for gas heavy Tanks and Thors, which rebuild slowly. You need only 1 good engagement and then it snowballs from there. Also, Vipers can pull all Vikings into Hydras (you have to pull as many as possible at the same time, no one by one) and then you have free reign over mech army. I really find Vipers more then enough to support ground Zerg army. You don't have to go for Broodlords now (which sucks anyways in Hots).
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I don't understand, why don't they just nerf hellbat damage and make blue flame give back that damage to hellbats? This way you can still transform your hellbats but they aren't nearly as strong until you get BF, seems much more reasonable.
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On February 22 2013 05:30 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 04:51 Nimix wrote:
I don't know how they can focus that much on terran things with the current protoss state on the beta. But they're the bosses I guess.
A hellbat change would be good, you can get them too early for what they're worth. But even after the nerf, it'll still be a nonsense biomechologicanic unit. Because even tho' Airtoss is really, really good at the moment, it's no where near as over powered and meta warping as the Hellbat was for TvZ and TvT. I think balancing PvZ Airtoss may be as simple as re-adding Scourge to chase down Mass Tempests.
I would love it if they actually added scourge. Not only would it help out ZvP, but it would make watching ZvZ x100 times more exciting (considering the new muta).
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On February 22 2013 05:44 Zelniq wrote:
Fixing the early game ZvT is definitely the important issue, and this will help a lot for sure. But one of my main issues with the matchup won't be effected..
From a design perspective and not a balance one, I really wish there was a way to beat end-game mech army without massing air. You would think that vipers would be the way to support your ground army to beat mech, but so far that does not seem to be the case. For one, they're extremely vulnerable to vikings and widow mines, and the other major issue is just the lack of any reasonable ground army compositions. Roaches, zerglings, banelings, hydras, swarm hosts, ultras, infestors, all these units are simply way too ineffective vs a proper maxed mech army. Zerg's only option is mass brood/corruptor which is so boring for everyone involved (both players, and any spectators). I hope I'm wrong, and that zergs just haven't figured out how to use vipers/support them correctly yet or something. But it doesn't seem to be the case
It is a balance perspective. You're merely arguing that Zerg ground isn't strong enough to beat mech.
And that's perfectly fine to bring up. Haha TL and the "no balance whine" policy, making people take useless precautions since 2001.
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On February 22 2013 05:50 ant-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 05:44 Tppz! wrote:
Couldnt they revert the changes of the previous patch now? I mean the issue of a early Hellbatdrop wont be there since it comes 2 minutes later.
It does not come two minutes later, you still can produce Hellbats once you fielded an armory, you just cannot transform them to hellion and back. This nerf needs to stay.
So it comes 1 minute + X later if you do it that way. You need to produce 4 Hellbats which takes 2*30 if you have a reactored factory. But since you dont have the hellbats at the other side of the map (like with the "old 4 hellbat drop") you need more time for picking up the hellbat and moving them over the map. So it would come like 80 seconds later than the old drop. That aint 2 minutes but still plenty of time.
On February 22 2013 05:56 emc wrote:
I don't understand, why don't they just nerf hellbat damage and make blue flame give back that damage to hellbats? This way you can still transform your hellbats but they aren't nearly as strong until you get BF, seems much more reasonable.
Because it needs those stats it has right now because of TvP Mech. If the Hellbat would be a transformed Hellion Mech would suck even more. It is needed so Mech TvP is at least playable.
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On February 22 2013 06:07 Tppz! wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 05:50 ant-1 wrote:On February 22 2013 05:44 Tppz! wrote:
Couldnt they revert the changes of the previous patch now? I mean the issue of a early Hellbatdrop wont be there since it comes 2 minutes later.
It does not come two minutes later, you still can produce Hellbats once you fielded an armory, you just cannot transform them to hellion and back. This nerf needs to stay. So it comes 1 minute + X later if you do it that way. You need to produce 4 Hellbats which takes 2*30 if you have a reactored factory. But since you dont have the hellbats at the other side of the map (like with the "old 4 hellbat drop") you need more time for picking up the hellbat and moving them over the map. So it would come like 80 seconds later than the old drop. That aint 2 minutes but still plenty of time.
I see your point. Yes, it slows the OhMyGod4Hellions-NO-HELLBATS-AtMyFrontDoor! I guess it's doing what's intended then
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so basically, zerg had to make units. how dreadful. btw, can you still make hellbats straight from the factory? I suppose not.
also, about the lategame mech - it's a powerful composition, but in comparison to zerg, you can't durdle around with 2 base allins, muta play, random harasses, and still have that 'deathball' up at 18:00 mins like nothing happened.
it's a specific style with it's weaknesses.
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On February 22 2013 05:56 emc wrote:
I don't understand, why don't they just nerf hellbat damage and make blue flame give back that damage to hellbats? This way you can still transform your hellbats but they aren't nearly as strong until you get BF, seems much more reasonable.
because you have to look at more matchups than just ZvT
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you can pretty much expect blizzard to nerf terran into the ground just like they did in wol at this point
if protoss win that because
+ Show Spoiler +they have all in or 200 supply attack , totaly fine
if zerg win that because
+ Show Spoiler +they have played smart and amazing , SIM city style 50 drone before unit , totaly fine
if terran win that because
+ Show Spoiler +IMBA NERF THEM . terran can never win
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On February 22 2013 06:14 n0ise wrote:
so basically, zerg had to make units. how dreadful. btw, can you still make hellbats straight from the factory? I suppose not.
Yes you can, but it requires an armory. You just can't reactor-hellion and then instant transform them into hellbats. You can however start pumping out reactored hellbats once you have an armory.
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People complaining about "no early game aggressioin" and nothing happening for 15 minutes forget that reapers are sickeningly good and can be incorporated in a macro build during the first 5 minutes all the way until zergling speed comes out!
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On February 22 2013 05:44 Zelniq wrote:
Fixing the early game ZvT is definitely the important issue, and this will help a lot for sure. But one of my main issues with the matchup won't be effected..
From a design perspective and not a balance one, I really wish there was a way to beat end-game mech army without massing air. You would think that vipers would be the way to support your ground army to beat mech, but so far that does not seem to be the case. For one, they're extremely vulnerable to vikings and widow mines, and the other major issue is just the lack of any reasonable ground army compositions. Roaches, zerglings, banelings, hydras, swarm hosts, ultras, infestors, all these units are simply way too ineffective vs a proper maxed mech army. Zerg's only option is mass brood/corruptor which is so boring for everyone involved (both players, and any spectators). I hope I'm wrong, and that zergs just haven't figured out how to use vipers/support them correctly yet or something. But it doesn't seem to be the case
Ragnarok just RAN over TheSTC's Mech play in a showmatch last night... And he never had to use an "air army" per se. He used Roach/Hydra with Drops and/or Vipers to run over his Mech army. Not saying Mech isn't viable or anything, but I don't see this idea that Zerg has to transition into a pure air army in order to beat Mech. In fact, most Pro Mech players on the Beta right now, at least the ones that stream, are either hitting ground timings before Vipers or turtling into an Air Army. They simply do not stay on a ground army.
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TL;DR
Can we revert the hellbat cargo size nerf or is the hellbat timing with "transformation servos" still make for too powerful of a drop too early?
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Reapers still rape zerg in the early game. I dough this is enough of a nerf.
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On February 22 2013 06:23 quebecman77 wrote:you can pretty much expect blizzard to nerf terran into the ground just like they did in wol at this point if protoss win that because + Show Spoiler +they have all in or 200 supply attack , totaly fine if zerg win that because + Show Spoiler +they have played smart and amazing , SIM city style 50 drone before unit , totaly fine if terran win that because + Show Spoiler +IMBA NERF THEM . terran can never win
Delaying tech a little bit for a ridiculously powerful and cheap unit is not what i call "nerf to the ground".
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On February 22 2013 06:23 quebecman77 wrote:you can pretty much expect blizzard to nerf terran into the ground just like they did in wol at this point if protoss win that because + Show Spoiler +they have all in or 200 supply attack , totaly fine if zerg win that because + Show Spoiler +they have played smart and amazing , SIM city style 50 drone before unit , totaly fine if terran win that because + Show Spoiler +IMBA NERF THEM . terran can never win
I fail to see how not being able to win with mineral only units is somehow a nerf to the ground.
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On February 22 2013 06:37 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 06:23 quebecman77 wrote:you can pretty much expect blizzard to nerf terran into the ground just like they did in wol at this point if protoss win that because + Show Spoiler +they have all in or 200 supply attack , totaly fine if zerg win that because + Show Spoiler +they have played smart and amazing , SIM city style 50 drone before unit , totaly fine if terran win that because + Show Spoiler +IMBA NERF THEM . terran can never win I fail to see how not being able to win with mineral only units is somehow a nerf to the ground.
Well, tell that to every Life wannabe on ladder who just do speedlings all ins and claim imbalance when you *surprise* walled off.
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like it. hellbat still hardcounters lings too much but its a start. now fix reaper and then finally start buffing hydras, SHs and let BLs not be countered by ravens and tempest so hard. i hate superhardcounters that take no skill to use ^^
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On February 22 2013 06:44 Decendos wrote:
like it. hellbat still hardcounters lings too much but its a start. now fix reaper and then finally start buffing hydras, SHs and let BLs not be countered by ravens and tempest so hard. i hate superhardcounters that take no skill to use ^^
Anything else you'd like to add to your shopping list? Range increase on vipers? More expensive DTs? Faster Fungal projectile, perhaps?
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It really didn't take for the 'pros' to feed back that its broken, fix skytoss next please
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Great change.
Next up on the block for the nerf-hammer should be Medivac Boost and then Skytoss.
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On February 22 2013 06:47 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 06:44 Decendos wrote:
like it. hellbat still hardcounters lings too much but its a start. now fix reaper and then finally start buffing hydras, SHs and let BLs not be countered by ravens and tempest so hard. i hate superhardcounters that take no skill to use ^^
Anything else you'd like to add to your shopping list? Range increase on vipers? More expensive DTs? Faster Fungal projectile, perhaps?
oh you didnt know zerg and especially the mentioned units suck hardcore. np dude, now you know
and btw i also think tanks should be buffed. cant think of a P unit that needs a buff right now.
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On February 22 2013 06:58 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 06:47 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 22 2013 06:44 Decendos wrote:
like it. hellbat still hardcounters lings too much but its a start. now fix reaper and then finally start buffing hydras, SHs and let BLs not be countered by ravens and tempest so hard. i hate superhardcounters that take no skill to use ^^
Anything else you'd like to add to your shopping list? Range increase on vipers? More expensive DTs? Faster Fungal projectile, perhaps? oh you didnt know zerg and especially the mentioned units suck hardcore. np dude, now you know and btw i also think tanks should be buffed. cant think of a P unit that needs a buff right now.
If tanks got a buff it would need to be only verse protoss as tanks are strong tvz so buffing them could make them overpowered tvz unless you buff them to only affect shields like the widow mine.
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On February 22 2013 06:53 FakeDeath wrote:
Great change.
Next up on the block for the nerf-hammer should be Medivac Boost and then Skytoss.
Problem is the huge boost protoss got in their drop defense in the form of the MsC. And the 4 speed mutas also arent exactly hurting zerg. I do agree that the spammability of the boost should be reduced, but imo not the boost itself.
And hopefully medivac cargo space for hellbats is changed back to two. Really not needed anymore if it takes so much longer and more expensive to get hellbats. (Not to mention this is also significant nerf for any attempt to mech against toss).
If tanks got a buff it would need to be only verse protoss as tanks are strong tvz so buffing them could make them overpowered tvz unless you buff them to only affect shields like the widow mine.
Tanks in TvZ are a joke compared to tanks in TvT, and already there they arent particulary scary. Zerg also got viper now. Only thing you need to watch out for is early-mid game tanks not becoming too powerful.
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And hopefully medivac cargo space for hellbats is changed back to two. Really not needed anymore if it takes so much longer and more expensive to get hellbats. (Not to mention this is also significant nerf for any attempt to mech against toss).
I suspect it will be changed back.
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On February 22 2013 07:00 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 06:58 Decendos wrote:On February 22 2013 06:47 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 22 2013 06:44 Decendos wrote:
like it. hellbat still hardcounters lings too much but its a start. now fix reaper and then finally start buffing hydras, SHs and let BLs not be countered by ravens and tempest so hard. i hate superhardcounters that take no skill to use ^^
Anything else you'd like to add to your shopping list? Range increase on vipers? More expensive DTs? Faster Fungal projectile, perhaps? oh you didnt know zerg and especially the mentioned units suck hardcore. np dude, now you know and btw i also think tanks should be buffed. cant think of a P unit that needs a buff right now. If tanks got a buff it would need to be only verse protoss as tanks are strong tvz so buffing them could make them overpowered tvz unless you buff them to only affect shields like the widow mine.
i agree partly. i think tanks arent that great vs Z either now that ultras tear through the buffer units like marines or hellbats much faster. so a tankbuff could only be done with an upgrade that comes pretty late in the game.
tanks also are pretty bad in TvT imo. played a TvT 2 days ago were i had 10 tanks sieged up with some hellbats vs mass hellbat/thor that just a-moved in my siege line...it wasnt even close.
i would love to see a lategame upgrade: increases siege time by 2-4 seconds, increases damage by +20-30. something like that.
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On February 22 2013 07:03 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 06:53 FakeDeath wrote:
Great change.
Next up on the block for the nerf-hammer should be Medivac Boost and then Skytoss. Problem is the huge boost protoss got in their drop defense in the form of the MsC. And the 4 speed mutas also arent exactly hurting zerg. I do agree that the spammability of the boost should be reduced, but imo not the boost itself. And hopefully medivac cargo space for hellbats is changed back to two. Really not needed anymore if it takes so much longer and more expensive to get hellbats. (Not to mention this is also significant nerf for any attempt to mech against toss). Show nested quote +If tanks got a buff it would need to be only verse protoss as tanks are strong tvz so buffing them could make them overpowered tvz unless you buff them to only affect shields like the widow mine. Tanks in TvZ are a joke compared to tanks in TvT, and already there they arent particulary scary. Zerg also got viper now. Only thing you need to watch out for is early-mid game tanks not becoming too powerful.
The boost i think won't be affected.
Just the cost of using Medivac Boost.
Maybe putting on a more significant cooldown or consume more energy?
Either way, it is definitely getting a nerf sooner or later.
As for Skytoss,it will be the new BLs/Infestor composition in the future.
Probably a small nerf to Tempest range and Voidray Prismatic.
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I feel like they're too quick to make these sorts of changes lately. Zerg has damn good scouting. Certainly they're capable of anticipating hellbats. If these hellbat pushes are too strong then that's probably an issue with hellbats being too strong. They're 100 mineral units that now require more tech than a thor to make. There's just something wrong with that.
Just release the game without nerfing every new aggressive build into the ground before people have had a chance to figure them out, please.
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So ZvT early game is an issue, but Zerg being able to drone to 60 with 6 queens defending all is not an issue 
But...TvP early game all-ins apparently are not an issue because it's Terran - the other two races should have a myriad of all-in options available to them to outright win the game, but Terran is not allowed to do the same thing, they just need to play better.
On February 22 2013 06:23 quebecman77 wrote:you can pretty much expect blizzard to nerf terran into the ground just like they did in wol at this point if protoss win that because + Show Spoiler +they have all in or 200 supply attack , totaly fine if zerg win that because + Show Spoiler +they have played smart and amazing , SIM city style 50 drone before unit , totaly fine if terran win that because + Show Spoiler +IMBA NERF THEM . terran can never win
Yep. A big reason is because in the past two weeks as Terran's started to use hellbats a lot more certain Zerg/Protoss "pros" and streamers started to complain WOL beta style about Terran being "OP."
You'll notice 99% of the Terrans say nothing because they are too afraid of being labelled as a whiner.
It's quite the shame. Have some balls Terrans. Otherwise have fun as everyone gets Terran nerfed into the ground because they're "winning past the 15 minute mark, they shouldn't be allowed to do that! It wasn't like this in WOL! Whenever i built my 6 queens and only drones i was able to defend EVERYTHING! And then when the timer hit 15 minutes and i had my brood/infestor i never lost! This is sooooooo fucking unfair, I won every time it hit lategame b4, now Terran has a chance  so 'imba' blizzard nerf them"
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I think this is WAY WAY WAY TOO soon to say that we need to patch this.
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I also think this is way too soon. Bu my bet is that blizzard freaked out before the release of hots. So we may also have an overnerf of reapers and airtoss
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"Now that the highest skilled pro players have been playing the beta for a few weeks"
Wow. David Kim deserves the hate.
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Damn, 2 factory build that I used could defend roach burrow allins, but now it might be tricky without hellbats.
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On February 22 2013 07:13 avilo wrote:So ZvT early game is an issue, but Zerg being able to drone to 60 with 6 queens defending all is not an issue But...TvP early game all-ins apparently are not an issue because it's Terran - the other two races should have a myriad of all-in options available to them to outright win the game, but Terran is not allowed to do the same thing, they just need to play better. Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 06:23 quebecman77 wrote:you can pretty much expect blizzard to nerf terran into the ground just like they did in wol at this point if protoss win that because + Show Spoiler +they have all in or 200 supply attack , totaly fine if zerg win that because + Show Spoiler +they have played smart and amazing , SIM city style 50 drone before unit , totaly fine if terran win that because + Show Spoiler +IMBA NERF THEM . terran can never win Yep. A big reason is because in the past two weeks as Terran's started to use hellbats a lot more certain Zerg/Protoss "pros" and streamers started to complain WOL beta style about Terran being "OP." You'll notice 99% of the Terrans say nothing because they are too afraid of being labelled as a whiner. It's quite the shame. Have some balls Terrans. Otherwise have fun as everyone gets Terran nerfed into the ground because they're "winning past the 15 minute mark, they shouldn't be allowed to do that! It wasn't like this in WOL! Whenever i built my 6 queens and only drones i was able to defend EVERYTHING! And then when the timer hit 15 minutes and i had my brood/infestor i never lost! This is sooooooo fucking unfair, I won every time it hit lategame b4, now Terran has a chance so 'imba' blizzard nerf them"
I don't think it's so much that Terrans don't "whine," but 95% of the top tier Terrans are Korean and don't have a direct line to Blizzard Command. Even then, Blizzard has pretty much admitted they don't care about foreign Terrans anyways, since the "cultural differences" makes it impossible for anybody but Koreans to play the race correctly. We have 3 races but only 2 are allowed to lobby for change, and we all know that the community plays a huge role in the balance of the game.
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at least the stats are not nerfed
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In the early days of WoL terrans had so many agressive builds that after some time blizz started to nerf them one by one (reaper, blueflame hellion, stimpack etc). I wonder if they will proceed so consistently with protoss early-mid game agression variety.
I am totally against fast expo being only way to play this game after 1 year of total boredom including eco vs eco leading into 200 vs 200.
Also everyone is so used to economic startegy (greedy) as being standard that anything that threatens it is considered imba.
Having said that I understand this change to hellbats not that I agree with it. Previous nerf to medivac cargo will result in mech being more turtle into deathball startegy which we all are excited for ....
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I find it a bit funny they remove siege mode upgrade to make it easier to mech against toss, and then decide to add an upgrade to for hellbat transformation, almost undoing that previous buff.
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On February 22 2013 07:13 avilo wrote:So ZvT early game is an issue, but Zerg being able to drone to 60 with 6 queens defending all is not an issue But...TvP early game all-ins apparently are not an issue because it's Terran - the other two races should have a myriad of all-in options available to them to outright win the game, but Terran is not allowed to do the same thing, they just need to play better. Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 06:23 quebecman77 wrote:you can pretty much expect blizzard to nerf terran into the ground just like they did in wol at this point if protoss win that because + Show Spoiler +they have all in or 200 supply attack , totaly fine if zerg win that because + Show Spoiler +they have played smart and amazing , SIM city style 50 drone before unit , totaly fine if terran win that because + Show Spoiler +IMBA NERF THEM . terran can never win Yep. A big reason is because in the past two weeks as Terran's started to use hellbats a lot more certain Zerg/Protoss "pros" and streamers started to complain WOL beta style about Terran being "OP." You'll notice 99% of the Terrans say nothing because they are too afraid of being labelled as a whiner. It's quite the shame. Have some balls Terrans. Otherwise have fun as everyone gets Terran nerfed into the ground because they're "winning past the 15 minute mark, they shouldn't be allowed to do that! It wasn't like this in WOL! Whenever i built my 6 queens and only drones i was able to defend EVERYTHING! And then when the timer hit 15 minutes and i had my brood/infestor i never lost! This is sooooooo fucking unfair, I won every time it hit lategame b4, now Terran has a chance so 'imba' blizzard nerf them"
sad, but not far from truth. would love to trade imba hellbats and omfg reapers for zerg's perfect scouting, queens and super-speed
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this beta patch hasn't even been played for 3 months...
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I feel like a lot of zerg complaints are inevitable moving into HotS when everyone's used to nigh invulnerable mass queen drone openings in WoL. It's hardly surprising that it'd be a little jarring suddenly realizing that terrans can attack you again. Maybe give people a little time for that to sink in before we go making zerg aggro immune again.
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On February 22 2013 07:25 TripleOSeven wrote:
Damn, 2 factory build that I used could defend roach burrow allins, but now it might be tricky without hellbats.
And you need an upgrade for tanks to go into seige mode. Oh wait...
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God i hope blizzard is carefull about nerfing Terran early game. I dont wanna see WoL again with 60 drones before more than 4 lings and queen, with 12 min hives and 16 min broodlords. If they make another "queen patch" then Hots is just as fucked as WoL is currently
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As a decently high master terran I dont see the problem, but then again iam no top player as the post keeps referring to. However the Z i meet just make roaches when i do helions and they are just fine, they are more then fine tbh, with roaches they can easly go and do early damage if i only have helions o:..
Or does Z excepet to hold off only with zerglins or what?
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I think its funny everybody whining about a Unit that "costs only Minerals" win the game. Let us do the Math for the Build...i pick the version with one gas and skip over building Worker and Depots.
1 Gas = 75 Mins
1 CC = 150 Mins
1 Rax = 150 Mins
2 Factorys = 300 Mins, 200 Gas
2 Reactors = 100 Mins, 100 Gas
1 Armory = 150 Mins, 100 Gas.
Investment ==> 925 Mins, 400 Gas
If it doesnt work...you are Dead or at least heavily behind.
Ok...now...just for the Fun of it....Baneling-Bust.
1 Pool = 200 Mins
1 Hatch = 300 Mins
1 Extractor = 25 Mins
2 Queens = 300 Mins
1 Baneling-Nest = 100 Mins, 50 Gas
Investment ==> 925 Mins, 50 Gas...i dont put Metabolic Boost into this, but if you like...
Investment ==> 1025 Mins, 150 Gas
So...There are now 250 Gas left for the Zerg when he got Metabolic Boost, 350 without. That means 10 or 14 Banelings to break down ANY wall. The links do the rest.
If it doesnt outright kill the Terran...fall back and start droning, because you are in front most of the time.
If you dont scout, you DESERVE TO DIE. Blizzard lowered the Overlord-Speed to the hatch, so you can scout. And the Hellbat All-In is Pretty easy to scout. Oh no...that costs 100 Gas and works for all my overlords. Terrans need a Reaper for 50 Gas or a Scan around the 6 minute Mark to not die or fall behind to an potenzial NORMAL Oracle Play. Use the tools you got, learn to build something else then drones for the first 8 minutes and let us all...Zerg and Terran start whining about the IMBA OP DAMN PROTOSS :D.
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A good change, there NEEDS to be upgrades in order for the player to actually invest in the tech path he chooses
However time is running out to actually make HoTS something better than WoL.. which it isn't that much. Anyone who has watched a stream will know that the game is more gimmicky than ever.
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After thinking about this patch a little bit,
Prepatch: (gas first into 2 gas)
Rax finishes at 3:00 ~
Factory done at 4:00 ~
Armory done at 5:05 ~
Hell bats unlocked
6:05 Starport finishes
Postpatch (gas first into 2 gas)
Rax finishes at 3:00 ~
Fact finishes at 4:00 ~
Armory done at 5:05 ~
Techlab is already built for fact. fact is already on it
research transformation upgrade
6:15 ~ battle hellions unlocked + Starport impossible to be finished, is likely just starting or is halfway done
Prepatch (1rax fe > 2 gas)
Rax done at 2:40 ~
CC built
gasses taken
Factory done at 5:30 ~
Armory done at 6:40 ~
Batte hellions unlocked
Starport done at 7 - 7:30 ~
Post Patch (1 rax fe > 2 gas)
Rax done at 2:40 ~
CC built
gasses taken
Factory done at 5:30 ~
Armory done at 6:40 ~
Transformation reseached
Batte hellions unlocked at 7:50 at the earliest
Starport done at 8:30-9
edit: this is approximations, but shows quite a lot of idfference
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When does Terran finally get a lategame buff, so you don't have to play 3 times better to beat an a-move deathball of protoss or zerg?
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On February 22 2013 04:07 HTOMario wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:45 Tsubbi wrote:On February 22 2013 03:43 shindigs wrote:
Hellbat transformation requiring upgrade.
Siege tech does not require upgrade.
WHAT IS MY WORLD i hope they reintroduce siege tech as well, it creates so many tense timing situations in tvz as well as tvt and it never achieved what it was supposed to, which was make mech more viable in tvp It did exactly that.
Pff what do you know about mech in tvp. (lulz)
When does Terran finally get a lategame buff, so you don't have to play 3 times better to beat an a-move deathball of protoss or zerg?
Skyterran with mass raven battlecruisers is extremely good vs zerg :o
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On February 22 2013 08:07 WeRRa wrote:
When does Terran finally get a lategame buff, so you don't have to play 3 times better to beat an a-move deathball of protoss or zerg?
ravens are now OP in lategame vs zerg. build them and dont forget to support them. raven got huge buffs so build them. if he goes BL infestor and you have a raven + support army you cant lose. if he goes ultras its harder but still doable. once you got your 150 supply army of BC raven viking you literally cant lost anymore.
so yeah ravens are key in lategame now and they rock.
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On February 22 2013 08:09 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 04:07 HTOMario wrote:On February 22 2013 03:45 Tsubbi wrote:On February 22 2013 03:43 shindigs wrote:
Hellbat transformation requiring upgrade.
Siege tech does not require upgrade.
WHAT IS MY WORLD i hope they reintroduce siege tech as well, it creates so many tense timing situations in tvz as well as tvt and it never achieved what it was supposed to, which was make mech more viable in tvp It did exactly that. Pff what do you know about mech in tvp. (lulz) Show nested quote +When does Terran finally get a lategame buff, so you don't have to play 3 times better to beat an a-move deathball of protoss or zerg? Skyterran with mass raven battlecruisers is extremely good vs zerg :o
Raven + anything is amazing vs Zerg nowdays.
Raven + Mech, Raven + Air, it all depends which composition the Zerg player is going.
Also Ravens are basically a necessity if they are going SH at all and microing their SH. Good to have a couple just in case of tech switch, even though they completely decimate the majority of Zerg armies anyway.
On February 22 2013 06:23 quebecman77 wrote:
you can pretty much expect blizzard to nerf terran into the ground just like they did in wol at this point
Seriously? Terran went in to WoL incredibly powerful, and most the Terran nerfs were post-release, and after months of nerfs that Terrans were saying would break the race, they were still in good shape.
On February 22 2013 07:13 Beakyboo wrote:
I feel like they're too quick to make these sorts of changes lately. Zerg has damn good scouting. Certainly they're capable of anticipating hellbats. If these hellbat pushes are too strong then that's probably an issue with hellbats being too strong. They're 100 mineral units that now require more tech than a thor to make. There's just something wrong with that.
I haven't had a problem facing hellbat drops since patch, but haven't faced too many pushes so I can't judge that too well.
But from my experience fighting Hellbats, the issue is most likely due to teching. Even though Roaches outrange the Hellbats slightly, if you try having some micro battles with them, due to the attack delay of Roaches being pretty large the Hellbats still trade with the Roaches.
Hydras are actually more successful defending Hellbats than Roaches. Even though they are light units and get torn up by the fire, you can actually have a micro battle. So you need to tech (which means sacrificing workers) and spend quite a bit of a gas investment to be able to fight them without huge casualties, even if you scout the hellbats coming.
Post-patch, the Terran composition will probably need to be more varied to counteract this.
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On February 22 2013 08:13 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 08:07 WeRRa wrote:
When does Terran finally get a lategame buff, so you don't have to play 3 times better to beat an a-move deathball of protoss or zerg? ravens are now OP in lategame vs zerg. build them and dont forget to support them. raven got huge buffs so build them. if he goes BL infestor and you have a raven + support army you cant lose. if he goes ultras its harder but still doable. once you got your 150 supply army of BC raven viking you literally cant lost anymore. so yeah ravens are key in lategame now and they rock.
Problem is it takes ages to get to this point and it is useless vs toss i mean colossi, ht, tempest. Ghost buff would be welcome, ghosts are not worth there money. The only reason you get ghost ingame is to counter hts, if toss doesn't go ht you never go ghosts, cause the tech route is so expensive and it is not really worth it. Also techreactor upgrade at fusion core would be nice so tech switches don't pull terran out of the game.
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On February 22 2013 08:28 WeRRa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 08:13 Decendos wrote:On February 22 2013 08:07 WeRRa wrote:
When does Terran finally get a lategame buff, so you don't have to play 3 times better to beat an a-move deathball of protoss or zerg? ravens are now OP in lategame vs zerg. build them and dont forget to support them. raven got huge buffs so build them. if he goes BL infestor and you have a raven + support army you cant lose. if he goes ultras its harder but still doable. once you got your 150 supply army of BC raven viking you literally cant lost anymore. so yeah ravens are key in lategame now and they rock. Problem is it takes ages to get to this point and it is useless vs toss i mean colossi, ht, tempest. Ghost buff would be welcome, ghosts are not worth there money. The only reason you get ghost ingame is to counter hts, if toss doesn't go ht you never go ghosts, cause the tech route is so expensive and it is not really worth it. Also techreactor upgrade at fusion core would be nice so tech switches don't pull terran out of the game.
Serious question, wasn't the Terran problem in TvZ with late-game anyway? How long it takes to get there shouldn't be too much of an issue if that's the case.
Also Terran can usually tech quicker than the Zerg can, especially if they do an early push that needs to be defended, and especially if you are going with a fairly fast factory build such as this.
But I would like to see Ghosts get a buff honestly. As a Zerg player I rarely ever see them, and I don't feel their abilities have very much synergy with the rest of the Terran army.
BTW, Ravens are pretty amazing vs Toss as well. Toss is known for their deathballs, and their deathballs are realllly tight usually. And they love choke points! Seeker Missiles blow them the hell up!
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On February 22 2013 08:33 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 08:28 WeRRa wrote:On February 22 2013 08:13 Decendos wrote:On February 22 2013 08:07 WeRRa wrote:
When does Terran finally get a lategame buff, so you don't have to play 3 times better to beat an a-move deathball of protoss or zerg? ravens are now OP in lategame vs zerg. build them and dont forget to support them. raven got huge buffs so build them. if he goes BL infestor and you have a raven + support army you cant lose. if he goes ultras its harder but still doable. once you got your 150 supply army of BC raven viking you literally cant lost anymore. so yeah ravens are key in lategame now and they rock. Problem is it takes ages to get to this point and it is useless vs toss i mean colossi, ht, tempest. Ghost buff would be welcome, ghosts are not worth there money. The only reason you get ghost ingame is to counter hts, if toss doesn't go ht you never go ghosts, cause the tech route is so expensive and it is not really worth it. Also techreactor upgrade at fusion core would be nice so tech switches don't pull terran out of the game. Serious question, wasn't the Terran problem in TvZ with late-game anyway? How long it takes to get there shouldn't be too much of an issue if that's the case. Also Terran can usually tech quicker than the Zerg can, especially if they do an early push that needs to be defended, and especially if you are going with a fairly fast factory build such as this. But I would like to see Ghosts get a buff honestly. As a Zerg player I rarely ever see them, and I don't feel their abilities have very much synergy with the rest of the Terran army. BTW, Ravens are pretty amazing vs Toss as well. Toss is known for their deathballs, and their deathballs are realllly tight usually. And they love choke points! Seeker Missiles blow them the hell up!
Raven is pretty amazing vs Toss, till he gets HTs. Then its just deadweight.
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On February 22 2013 08:33 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 08:28 WeRRa wrote:On February 22 2013 08:13 Decendos wrote:On February 22 2013 08:07 WeRRa wrote:
When does Terran finally get a lategame buff, so you don't have to play 3 times better to beat an a-move deathball of protoss or zerg? ravens are now OP in lategame vs zerg. build them and dont forget to support them. raven got huge buffs so build them. if he goes BL infestor and you have a raven + support army you cant lose. if he goes ultras its harder but still doable. once you got your 150 supply army of BC raven viking you literally cant lost anymore. so yeah ravens are key in lategame now and they rock. Problem is it takes ages to get to this point and it is useless vs toss i mean colossi, ht, tempest. Ghost buff would be welcome, ghosts are not worth there money. The only reason you get ghost ingame is to counter hts, if toss doesn't go ht you never go ghosts, cause the tech route is so expensive and it is not really worth it. Also techreactor upgrade at fusion core would be nice so tech switches don't pull terran out of the game. Serious question, wasn't the Terran problem in TvZ with late-game anyway? How long it takes to get there shouldn't be too much of an issue if that's the case. Also Terran can usually tech quicker than the Zerg can, especially if they do an early push that needs to be defended, and especially if you are going with a fairly fast factory build such as this. But I would like to see Ghosts get a buff honestly. As a Zerg player I rarely ever see them, and I don't feel their abilities have very much synergy with the rest of the Terran army. BTW, Ravens are pretty amazing vs Toss as well. Toss is known for their deathballs, and their deathballs are realllly tight usually. And they love choke points! Seeker Missiles blow them the hell up!
It's so easy to run away from SM's, especially when tempests can shoot from so far. And feedback alone kills ravens/bc's.
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On February 22 2013 08:39 Breach_hu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 08:33 Spyridon wrote:On February 22 2013 08:28 WeRRa wrote:On February 22 2013 08:13 Decendos wrote:On February 22 2013 08:07 WeRRa wrote:
When does Terran finally get a lategame buff, so you don't have to play 3 times better to beat an a-move deathball of protoss or zerg? ravens are now OP in lategame vs zerg. build them and dont forget to support them. raven got huge buffs so build them. if he goes BL infestor and you have a raven + support army you cant lose. if he goes ultras its harder but still doable. once you got your 150 supply army of BC raven viking you literally cant lost anymore. so yeah ravens are key in lategame now and they rock. Problem is it takes ages to get to this point and it is useless vs toss i mean colossi, ht, tempest. Ghost buff would be welcome, ghosts are not worth there money. The only reason you get ghost ingame is to counter hts, if toss doesn't go ht you never go ghosts, cause the tech route is so expensive and it is not really worth it. Also techreactor upgrade at fusion core would be nice so tech switches don't pull terran out of the game. Serious question, wasn't the Terran problem in TvZ with late-game anyway? How long it takes to get there shouldn't be too much of an issue if that's the case. Also Terran can usually tech quicker than the Zerg can, especially if they do an early push that needs to be defended, and especially if you are going with a fairly fast factory build such as this. But I would like to see Ghosts get a buff honestly. As a Zerg player I rarely ever see them, and I don't feel their abilities have very much synergy with the rest of the Terran army. BTW, Ravens are pretty amazing vs Toss as well. Toss is known for their deathballs, and their deathballs are realllly tight usually. And they love choke points! Seeker Missiles blow them the hell up! Raven is pretty amazing vs Toss, till he gets HTs. Then its just deadweight.
What is that, like 10 minutes?
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On February 22 2013 08:39 Breach_hu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 08:33 Spyridon wrote:On February 22 2013 08:28 WeRRa wrote:On February 22 2013 08:13 Decendos wrote:On February 22 2013 08:07 WeRRa wrote:
When does Terran finally get a lategame buff, so you don't have to play 3 times better to beat an a-move deathball of protoss or zerg? ravens are now OP in lategame vs zerg. build them and dont forget to support them. raven got huge buffs so build them. if he goes BL infestor and you have a raven + support army you cant lose. if he goes ultras its harder but still doable. once you got your 150 supply army of BC raven viking you literally cant lost anymore. so yeah ravens are key in lategame now and they rock. Problem is it takes ages to get to this point and it is useless vs toss i mean colossi, ht, tempest. Ghost buff would be welcome, ghosts are not worth there money. The only reason you get ghost ingame is to counter hts, if toss doesn't go ht you never go ghosts, cause the tech route is so expensive and it is not really worth it. Also techreactor upgrade at fusion core would be nice so tech switches don't pull terran out of the game. Serious question, wasn't the Terran problem in TvZ with late-game anyway? How long it takes to get there shouldn't be too much of an issue if that's the case. Also Terran can usually tech quicker than the Zerg can, especially if they do an early push that needs to be defended, and especially if you are going with a fairly fast factory build such as this. But I would like to see Ghosts get a buff honestly. As a Zerg player I rarely ever see them, and I don't feel their abilities have very much synergy with the rest of the Terran army. BTW, Ravens are pretty amazing vs Toss as well. Toss is known for their deathballs, and their deathballs are realllly tight usually. And they love choke points! Seeker Missiles blow them the hell up! Raven is pretty amazing vs Toss, till he gets HTs. Then its just deadweight.
As someone who has been mech (tank hellion ghost(if necessary)) ravening, that's entirely untrue. You should never really be flying ravens around alone and siege tanks and good positioning means you shouldn't get feedbacked.
You basically need ravens as mech vs toss with tempest/skytoss or you just lose instantly for example.
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Blizzard just cant get things right with Terran and its pissing me off
All they had to do from the very beginning was add 1 new unit to help transition into late game but some how they managed to make a mess of the Terran tech structure. They dont know when something is broken ffs, this is the same shit we had with the reaper
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On February 22 2013 08:45 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 08:33 Spyridon wrote:On February 22 2013 08:28 WeRRa wrote:On February 22 2013 08:13 Decendos wrote:On February 22 2013 08:07 WeRRa wrote:
When does Terran finally get a lategame buff, so you don't have to play 3 times better to beat an a-move deathball of protoss or zerg? ravens are now OP in lategame vs zerg. build them and dont forget to support them. raven got huge buffs so build them. if he goes BL infestor and you have a raven + support army you cant lose. if he goes ultras its harder but still doable. once you got your 150 supply army of BC raven viking you literally cant lost anymore. so yeah ravens are key in lategame now and they rock. Problem is it takes ages to get to this point and it is useless vs toss i mean colossi, ht, tempest. Ghost buff would be welcome, ghosts are not worth there money. The only reason you get ghost ingame is to counter hts, if toss doesn't go ht you never go ghosts, cause the tech route is so expensive and it is not really worth it. Also techreactor upgrade at fusion core would be nice so tech switches don't pull terran out of the game. Serious question, wasn't the Terran problem in TvZ with late-game anyway? How long it takes to get there shouldn't be too much of an issue if that's the case. Also Terran can usually tech quicker than the Zerg can, especially if they do an early push that needs to be defended, and especially if you are going with a fairly fast factory build such as this. But I would like to see Ghosts get a buff honestly. As a Zerg player I rarely ever see them, and I don't feel their abilities have very much synergy with the rest of the Terran army. BTW, Ravens are pretty amazing vs Toss as well. Toss is known for their deathballs, and their deathballs are realllly tight usually. And they love choke points! Seeker Missiles blow them the hell up! It's so easy to run away from SM's, especially when tempests can shoot from so far. And feedback alone kills ravens/bc's.
It's easy to run from 1, maybe 2 SM's, but not a number of them.
And with proper placement you can get off some SM's before they are able to feedback you. As well as proper placement makes sure their slow movement speed won't be able to get out of range before the missile goes off.
You seem to be trapping yourself in to negative thinking. That's like me saying my Broodlords will be useless because you can counter them with Vikings. It's a RTS, every unit has strengths and weaknesses. Use the strengths to your advantage and use proper micro and compositions to avoid the weaknesses.
Even your Terran brethren above agree. Don't trap yourself with negative thinking and try it.
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now fix tvp early game thanks
too much of a coin-flip guessing what 2 gas 1 base build protoss is going to do
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On February 22 2013 08:28 WeRRa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 08:13 Decendos wrote:On February 22 2013 08:07 WeRRa wrote:
When does Terran finally get a lategame buff, so you don't have to play 3 times better to beat an a-move deathball of protoss or zerg? ravens are now OP in lategame vs zerg. build them and dont forget to support them. raven got huge buffs so build them. if he goes BL infestor and you have a raven + support army you cant lose. if he goes ultras its harder but still doable. once you got your 150 supply army of BC raven viking you literally cant lost anymore. so yeah ravens are key in lategame now and they rock. Problem is it takes ages to get to this point and it is useless vs toss i mean colossi, ht, tempest. Ghost buff would be welcome, ghosts are not worth there money. The only reason you get ghost ingame is to counter hts, if toss doesn't go ht you never go ghosts, cause the tech route is so expensive and it is not really worth it. Also techreactor upgrade at fusion core would be nice so tech switches don't pull terran out of the game.
"If toss doesn't go ht you don't go ghost." There's half of your problem in TvP right there. Go ghost. It's amazing how much ghosts raped the toss army.
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On February 22 2013 09:18 netherDrake wrote:
now fix tvp early game thanks
too much of a coin-flip guessing what 2 gas 1 base build protoss is going to do
Psh, don't you know? You're supposed to get better as Terran. Stop whining!
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On February 22 2013 09:18 netherDrake wrote:
now fix tvp early game thanks
too much of a coin-flip guessing what 2 gas 1 base build protoss is going to do
It's actually pretty simple to work it out. If you scout 2 gas, no nexus and 2 pylons in his base when there should be 3, you know it's most likely a proxy stargate. They could proxy blink but that would make no sense. If you see a twilight council it's going to either be blink OR dt's so you can just get a turret at your front anyways and stay up your ramp if you haven't expanded yet. Gateway all ins are super easy to scout too.
You think it's bad now, try playing BW. Zealot openings from proxy 2 gates were much stronger and more common, then you had reaver drops that if you didn't defend perfectly your entire mineral line would die to a single scarab and then you had DTs which I'd argue were better in BW due to how much later you actually got the ability to scan. That's not even counting bulldog builds which dropped on top of your tanks defending your front.
EDIT: Also open siege expand and your safe from pretty much everything but stargate which is countered by a few turrets (as mech you can afford it). Sure you'll be slightly behind against any form of fast nexus, but better behind than dead. What the hell do you even need the minerals that quickly for anyway as mech?
I can't comment on bio since I don't play it.
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On February 22 2013 09:13 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 08:45 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On February 22 2013 08:33 Spyridon wrote:On February 22 2013 08:28 WeRRa wrote:On February 22 2013 08:13 Decendos wrote:On February 22 2013 08:07 WeRRa wrote:
When does Terran finally get a lategame buff, so you don't have to play 3 times better to beat an a-move deathball of protoss or zerg? ravens are now OP in lategame vs zerg. build them and dont forget to support them. raven got huge buffs so build them. if he goes BL infestor and you have a raven + support army you cant lose. if he goes ultras its harder but still doable. once you got your 150 supply army of BC raven viking you literally cant lost anymore. so yeah ravens are key in lategame now and they rock. Problem is it takes ages to get to this point and it is useless vs toss i mean colossi, ht, tempest. Ghost buff would be welcome, ghosts are not worth there money. The only reason you get ghost ingame is to counter hts, if toss doesn't go ht you never go ghosts, cause the tech route is so expensive and it is not really worth it. Also techreactor upgrade at fusion core would be nice so tech switches don't pull terran out of the game. Serious question, wasn't the Terran problem in TvZ with late-game anyway? How long it takes to get there shouldn't be too much of an issue if that's the case. Also Terran can usually tech quicker than the Zerg can, especially if they do an early push that needs to be defended, and especially if you are going with a fairly fast factory build such as this. But I would like to see Ghosts get a buff honestly. As a Zerg player I rarely ever see them, and I don't feel their abilities have very much synergy with the rest of the Terran army. BTW, Ravens are pretty amazing vs Toss as well. Toss is known for their deathballs, and their deathballs are realllly tight usually. And they love choke points! Seeker Missiles blow them the hell up! It's so easy to run away from SM's, especially when tempests can shoot from so far. And feedback alone kills ravens/bc's. It's easy to run from 1, maybe 2 SM's, but not a number of them. And with proper placement you can get off some SM's before they are able to feedback you. As well as proper placement makes sure their slow movement speed won't be able to get out of range before the missile goes off. You seem to be trapping yourself in to negative thinking. That's like me saying my Broodlords will be useless because you can counter them with Vikings. It's a RTS, every unit has strengths and weaknesses. Use the strengths to your advantage and use proper micro and compositions to avoid the weaknesses. Even your Terran brethren above agree. Don't trap yourself with negative thinking and try it.
In my experience against the rage inducing tempest, SM is the wrong ability to be using. If you use it against tempest you will damage one or two of them if they just let their tempest spread naturally. Against voids though, its so good unless the toss is really good at splitting. Id say ravens are the only reason voids arent used more in pvt but Im pretty bad so who knows. Zerg has fungals but collosus and zealots are pretty good at keeping the infestors back from what ive seen
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I thought Terran was going to be able to do mech vs protoss.....
Honestly, they never even tried making it viable, saying that terran mech would work vs protoss while it clearly wouldn't, gave some stupid siege tank buff that won't change anything, and then called mech viable. I am 100% positive that mech isn't going to be viable against protoss right now, but it seems like Blizzard is not willing to change anything to make it more viable. I'm extremely disappointed with HoTS tbh.
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On February 22 2013 06:33 A.Alm wrote:
Reapers still rape zerg in the early game. I dough this is enough of a nerf.
dont worry , they will nerf reaper soon , then mine
after all reaper ''can" kill some worker before the 15 min mark , and in some bad time , force the zerg to make some unit
clearly need to be nerfed no ?
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On February 22 2013 09:32 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 09:18 netherDrake wrote:
now fix tvp early game thanks
too much of a coin-flip guessing what 2 gas 1 base build protoss is going to do It's actually pretty simple to work it out. If you scout 2 gas, no nexus and 2 pylons in his base when there should be 3, you know it's most likely a proxy stargate. They could proxy blink but that would make no sense. If you see a twilight council it's going to either be blink OR dt's so you can just get a turret at your front anyways and stay up your ramp if you haven't expanded yet. Gateway all ins are super easy to scout too. You think it's bad now, try playing BW. Zealot openings from proxy 2 gates were much stronger and more common, then you had reaver drops that if you didn't defend perfectly your entire mineral line would die to a single scarab and then you had DTs which I'd argue were better in BW due to how much later you actually got the ability to scan. That's not even counting bulldog builds which dropped on top of your tanks defending your front. EDIT: Also open siege expand and your safe from pretty much everything but stargate which is countered by a few turrets (as mech you can afford it). Sure you'll be slightly behind against any form of fast nexus, but better behind than dead. What the hell do you even need the minerals that quickly for anyway as mech? I can't comment on bio since I don't play it.
Please,post your replays.I want to see you "siege expand" and defending Oracles.Later want to see you fighting Tempest,Carrier,HTs.Thanks.
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in a few months both siege tech and merged upgrade will be reverted to the way it is. It's fine to adjust timing and stuffs but completely removing some tasks just lower the required skills and thus making the game less appealing
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On February 22 2013 09:38 Jerom wrote:
I thought Terran was going to be able to do mech vs protoss.....
Honestly, they never even tried making it viable, saying that terran mech would work vs protoss while it clearly wouldn't, gave some stupid siege tank buff that won't change anything, and then called mech viable. I am 100% positive that mech isn't going to be viable against protoss right now, but it seems like Blizzard is not willing to change anything to make it more viable. I'm extremely disappointed with HoTS tbh.
If anything the real problem is that they tried.
The whole hellbat/warhound mess is/was because Blizzard tried.
By now they did terrible damage to other match-ups and mech TvP is about as dead as in WoL.
And everyone should see that coming.
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On February 22 2013 10:31 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 09:38 Jerom wrote:
I thought Terran was going to be able to do mech vs protoss.....
Honestly, they never even tried making it viable, saying that terran mech would work vs protoss while it clearly wouldn't, gave some stupid siege tank buff that won't change anything, and then called mech viable. I am 100% positive that mech isn't going to be viable against protoss right now, but it seems like Blizzard is not willing to change anything to make it more viable. I'm extremely disappointed with HoTS tbh. If anything the real problem is that they tried. The whole hellbat/warhound mess is/was because Blizzard tried. By now they did terrible damage to other match-ups and mech TvP is about as dead as in WoL. And everyone should see that coming. I dont classify the Warhound as trying at all. A super fast marauder with no stim as a mech unit is about as copy paste no clue 0 attempt of a try I have ever seen in my life.
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I am a terran player, and i have been saying this is what should be done. I think Blue flame needs a buff, to make it be used. I never even get it any more.
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On February 22 2013 10:06 quebecman77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 06:33 A.Alm wrote:
Reapers still rape zerg in the early game. I dough this is enough of a nerf. dont worry , they will nerf reaper soon , then mine after all reaper ''can" kill some worker before the 15 min mark , and in some bad time , force the zerg to make some unit clearly need to be nerfed no ?
The problem with reaper is proxy reaper is so so so so so so so good. The reaper itself would be fine if it didn't come out insanely early and proxied which makes it come even faster.
When you see proxy reaper 9 out of 10 times you know it's to good.
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I agree...reaper is just so so good.
Though I am learning to micro my units better!!
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The interesting part about this proposed change is that it's not even close to impossible to stop. It's not like Terrans are hitting a timing and Zerg just doesn't have the chance to make units to defend. The assertion is that the push is just "too hard" to stop.
It should be noted that this isn't like the blink stalker all-in either. This is an entirely new push/unit, and will take some time to adjust to. In contrast, the blink stalker all-in was already strong in WoL and still used competitively, and the addition of the MSC made it obviously more powerful.
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I wish they would have just nerfed hellbats, moving everything to an upgrade is really unfun design.
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On February 22 2013 12:06 aksfjh wrote:
The interesting part about this proposed change is that it's not even close to impossible to stop. It's not like Terrans are hitting a timing and Zerg just doesn't have the chance to make units to defend. The assertion is that the push is just "too hard" to stop.
It should be noted that this isn't like the blink stalker all-in either. This is an entirely new push/unit, and will take some time to adjust to. In contrast, the blink stalker all-in was already strong in WoL and still used competitively, and the addition of the MSC made it obviously more powerful.
The difference is that Protoss has a very powerful late game (arguably the most powerful) with a wide variety of compositions that their opponent has to react to so they have no reason to do anything other than turtle to the late game. Any blink stalker all in is just a Protoss having some fun with messing with their opponents, although any Protoss can do the build and it is very successful they don't HAVE to do the build and thus it feels more risky and surely less necessary because there is no reason why a Protoss would want to stray from where their most clear advantage is. Terran all ins on the other hand are out of necessity. The Terran race is bandaged together with a hodge podge of cheesey all ins, timing attacks with 30 second windows of viability, and catching the opponent with surprises or balls to the wall greed. Any new units or timings are obviously going to be exploited by Terran players because the last thing they want to do is play a straight up game into a late game composition from either Protoss or Zerg. Until this fundamental issue is fixed so that Terran can feel comfortable in a late game scenario on even footing with their opponents then cheesy play such as this is actually necessary and nerfs will not stop it.
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On February 22 2013 03:18 Blizzard wrote:
The biggest issue in the ZvT early game at the highest pro level seems to be the mass Hellion contain leading into the various potential mass Hellbat combinations right when the Armory comes into play. The time between Terran gaining full map control and then converting all their map control units into straight up power units looks to be too narrow.
I've been saying that Hellbats are a bad idea from day one. A mineral only unit that is one of the best harassment units in the game being able to turn into a unit that is really strong in straight up engagements will end up being ridiculously overpowered.
It just makes no sense as a unit.
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On February 22 2013 04:38 aksfjh wrote:
But oracles are the same? I swear to god I hate the ridiculous amount of bias in this damn community and the balance team at Blizzard. Fucking stupid.
Yep, ever seen an oracle/3 gate all in? Pretty damned hard to stop if T doesn't open with reactored rax into 111 and build a couple of bunkers. The current state of hellbats is fine even with the tech lab upgrade nerf, however, any more changes to the hellbat for the worse will drastically reduce the viability of Mech in TvP. I sincerely hope the maintain the power of hellbats since they are the only decent units that hold reasonable well against a robo composition.
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On February 22 2013 13:50 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 04:38 aksfjh wrote:
But oracles are the same? I swear to god I hate the ridiculous amount of bias in this damn community and the balance team at Blizzard. Fucking stupid. Yep, ever seen an oracle/3 gate all in? Pretty damned hard to stop if T doesn't open with reactored rax into 111 and build a couple of bunkers. The current state of hellbats is fine even with the tech lab upgrade nerf, however, any more changes to the hellbat for the worse will drastically reduce the viability of Mech in TvP. I sincerely hope the maintain the power of hellbats since they are the only decent units that hold reasonable well against a robo composition.
Hmm, as I've said in other threads, seems like the tides have turned against terran. Remember the oh so great 1/1/1 that annihilated toss? Have fun fighting it. Now you'll learn why having 100 different openings that all look the same is a bad thing. Every race has something that can destroy mineral lines in a half second. Banelings/hellbats/oracles. Difference is banelings and oracles have no hp. Hellbats are like me sending a warp in of zealots to your base that have 3/3 upgrades at the start of the game.
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Wow, nerf bat to the knee.
In addition to loading limit to 2 per medivac, hellbats will need research as well.
Ouch.
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On February 22 2013 06:30 MaxViktory wrote:
People complaining about "no early game aggressioin" and nothing happening for 15 minutes forget that reapers are sickeningly good and can be incorporated in a macro build during the first 5 minutes all the way until zergling speed comes out!
Yes, but that will mean that then they'll get nerfed.
I remember when ghost/marine was gaining in popularity then... nerf bat muthafu*ker
Honestly T should just follow Z player's lead and just MACRO EVARYGAEM.
Then whine when they lose to oracles.
Then Protoss will get nerfed.
Welcome to the wonderful world of POLITICS.
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Kinda wish they'd just buff Zerg early game to deal with this rather than nerf Terran. Would be nice to have an option that's not an all-in or boring 'drone for 15 minutes'.
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So wait, can you still produce hellbats out of the factory (with an armory ofc) without the upgrade?
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On February 22 2013 16:02 Lobotomist wrote:
So wait, can you still produce hellbats out of the factory (with an armory ofc) without the upgrade?
Yes but you cant transform the 2 units back and forth.
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Wow, the Terran whiners in this thread are completely out of control...Let's get a count of what changed early game with Zerg and Terran from WoL to HotS:
Terran:
- Widow Mines
- No Siege upgrade
- Medivac Boost
- Reaper auto-heal
- Hellbats
Zerg:
- Tier 1 Overlord Speed
- Tier 1 Burrow
Yeah, clearly Blizzard is trying to destroy early game Terran.
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Obviously it would have been better to have the same damages for the hellbat and the hellion. Thus, blue flame upgrade would be used again.
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That's a good change. Now if they reverted that horribly stupid tank buff from patch 11 you might actually see aggression from Zerg in ZvT.
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On February 22 2013 17:22 MilesTeg wrote:
That's a good change. Now if they reverted that horribly stupid tank buff from patch 11 you might actually see aggression from Zerg in ZvT.
Why would they do that when they feel still comfortable with their mid and late game armies?
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On February 22 2013 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Wow, the Terran whiners in this thread are completely out of control...Let's get a count of what changed early game with Zerg and Terran from WoL to HotS:
Terran:
- Widow Mines
- No Siege upgrade
- Medivac Boost
- Reaper auto-heal
- Hellbats
Zerg:
- Tier 1 Overlord Speed
- Tier 1 Burrow
Yeah, clearly Blizzard is trying to destroy early game Terran.
But limiting zerg's econ is more important than ever. Because zerg can make a few ultras and run you over.
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Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game?
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On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game?
2 rax+bunker hehe
double starport banshee
mass BFH
bio drop
hellions drop
marine+siege tank push
Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer?
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On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer?
Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D
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On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:
Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer?
Traditional bashee, hellion harassment
hellbat drop (probably not as effective now given that medivac carries two hellbats)
reapers
Combination of proxy rax/factories with widow mine, hellbats, and/or reapers
standard tank/marine push
tank/hellbats push
...maybe i should switch to playing terran instead
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On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D
spines, queens
spores, queens
wall off, queens
free spores
mono speed lings
maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those
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On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those
um..this is a stupid comment.
That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines.
except the game isn't so simple.
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D
Does BitByBit even still reside on a SC2 team anymore? I've not heard his name in so long
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On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple.
What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all..
edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are..
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indeed
i am still waiting to see an early strategy that payback the investment unless the zerg is braindead of course, but against a normal player zerg already have all the tools to defend any harass making the investment more a damge for you
when zerg have problems with something it got nerfed and/or receive a gift
when t/p have problems with something let's wait and see if the player find a way to deal with it
nothing has changed
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On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are..
Well said. Zerg players are NOT abusing the mobility and versatility of their race. As it stands, they are abusing Blizzard's balanced win ratio doctrine.
Current situation:
1. Go 3 base expand every pro-game,
2. Lose when they can't defend with small number of roaches/hydra/lings/etc, two queens and mass drones,
3. Whine about unit efficiency, lost mining time, because mid-game, APM requirements, etc etc consequently...
4. Blizzard nerfs the offending composition.
5. Complain that SC2 for Zerg is boring.
Edit: As it stands, why aren't Zerg abusing their scouting options and doing early game crawler/queen pushes, the same way Terrans do 3 marine/2 SCV bunker rushes? Queens can keep the crawlers alive with just transfuse, forcing the T to build marauders, instead of more production or tech (economic "damage") and expand behind it.
OH right, they don't need to do that since the only available openings for Terran can be dealt with a single cycle of roaches and a single queen.
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On February 22 2013 17:26 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 17:22 MilesTeg wrote:
That's a good change. Now if they reverted that horribly stupid tank buff from patch 11 you might actually see aggression from Zerg in ZvT. Why would they do that when they feel still comfortable with their mid and late game armies?
Because it's good RTS gameplay to be able to pressure or macro. And because if there's no way to punish greedy players the game will inevitably turn into late WoL ZVT turtle fest.
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On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer?
2 rax is map-dependent, and incredibly risky
double starport hasn't worked since...2011?
2 fact BFH is a coinflip, where you pray your opponent doesn't see your factories, and doesn't have his queens ready to block
"bio drop" sounds like you've never played terran. You don't get drops off of any viable build early enough to threaten the zerg.
hellion drops off of triple-orbital is risky, and requires that the zerg does not roachbane you, otherwise the lack of a banshee results in death
marine+siege tanks hasn't worked since 2011, pure ling destroys that, and an unprepared zerg can delay with a single spine + spare queens long enough to get those lings
banshee / hellion off of triple orbital has been proven to be viable enough to keep the terran in the game, but is still not capable of keeping good zergs from getting ungodly creep spread and super-fast 3rd saturation
reapers work when proxied at stupidly low food counts, but they can't do enough damage as part of a standard build to justify the cost + delaying your 2nd orbital, and become useless once speed finishes for lings
The pre-queen patch hellion contain was what kept the matchup balanced: the zerg had to spend resources to take a third and spread creep, which let the terran keep up economically. When that was patched out on a whim, TvZ died.
At least in HotS, our lategame units have become much better, in theory. The matchup has gone from pre-hive timing-or-die, to keeping up with the zerg and weathering enough ultralisk waves to build up a deathfleet. PvZ is actually like this, too, only a little bit easier. It's still stupid.
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I think it is time for Snipe damage being changed to 30 (+20) so we can snipe banelings and have fun!
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I think it's a very reasonable change. Hellion -> Firebat transition was so natural and there was no reason not to do it in TvZ.
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On February 22 2013 20:47 Ooshmagoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? 2 rax is map-dependent, and incredibly risky double starport hasn't worked since...2011? 2 fact BFH is a coinflip, where you pray your opponent doesn't see your factories, and doesn't have his queens ready to block "bio drop" sounds like you've never played terran. You don't get drops off of any viable build early enough to threaten the zerg. hellion drops off of triple-orbital is risky, and requires that the zerg does not roachbane you, otherwise the lack of a banshee results in death marine+siege tanks hasn't worked since 2011, pure ling destroys that, and an unprepared zerg can delay with a single spine + spare queens long enough to get those lings banshee / hellion off of triple orbital has been proven to be viable enough to keep the terran in the game, but is still not capable of keeping good zergs from getting ungodly creep spread and super-fast 3rd saturation reapers work when proxied at stupidly low food counts, but they can't do enough damage as part of a standard build to justify the cost + delaying your 2nd orbital, and become useless once speed finishes for lings The pre-queen patch hellion contain was what kept the matchup balanced: the zerg had to spend resources to take a third and spread creep, which let the terran keep up economically. When that was patched out on a whim, TvZ died. At least in HotS, our lategame units have become much better, in theory. The matchup has gone from pre-hive timing-or-die, to keeping up with the zerg and weathering enough ultralisk waves to build up a deathfleet. PvZ is actually like this, too, only a little bit easier. It's still stupid.
LOL!! I am Terran man!! I suppose I forgot to add the "Ironic Mode".Just said some old allins working before all this patches.It was just a joke! Nowadays I cant find way to damage the Z early and feel so frustrated as you..
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On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are..
you don't get it, do you?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311
Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly.
Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot.
People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple.
Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL.
that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games.
So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball?
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I recognize a pattern! Zerg whines about terran. Terran gets nerfed. Zerg learn how to use inf/brood. Zerg dominates everything till the next expansion arrives.
This beta. Zerg whines about everything that stops them from greedy drones only gameplay. Nobody really figures out what vipers etc. can achieve. Fast-Forward like 1 year and zerg will pull some new inf/brood-esque comp (i guess ultra/viper-cloud-something-something) out of their a** to dominate till the Protoss-Expansion arrives.
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On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball?
You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all.
Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta.
People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on.
Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused...
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On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused...
OK
What I meant was:
listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything.
Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc
Then assuming sky toss has no counter,
by that logic,
he cannot list counter
meaning
sky toss = sure win?
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the problem is that when terran have something that is really effective it get nerfed unitll it become not worthy
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On February 22 2013 20:26 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. Well said. Zerg players are NOT abusing the mobility and versatility of their race. As it stands, they are abusing Blizzard's balanced win ratio doctrine. Current situation: 1. Go 3 base expand every pro-game, 2. Lose when they can't defend with small number of roaches/hydra/lings/etc, two queens and mass drones, 3. Whine about unit efficiency, lost mining time, because mid-game, APM requirements, etc etc consequently... 4. Blizzard nerfs the offending composition. 5. Complain that SC2 for Zerg is boring. Edit: As it stands, why aren't Zerg abusing their scouting options and doing early game crawler/queen pushes, the same way Terrans do 3 marine/2 SCV bunker rushes? Queens can keep the crawlers alive with just transfuse, forcing the T to build marauders, instead of more production or tech (economic "damage") and expand behind it. OH right, they don't need to do that since the only available openings for Terran can be dealt with a single cycle of roaches and a single queen.
I second every single word of yours.
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On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win?
I see..
I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on...
So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL...
At least this is my view on this issue.
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On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:On February 22 2013 18:01 Rider517 wrote:
Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg.
can someone tell me which are these plenty strategies that have a real effect in early game? 2 rax+bunker hehe double starport banshee mass BFH bio drop hellions drop marine+siege tank push Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue.
It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming.
Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running.
What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year.
If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier.
and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate.
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I like the idea of reinstating fransform for hellions, as I said in the previous patch thread I think its better to play with times rather than unit stats for balance.
But now that we are almost at the end of the beta I think that someting is wrong in HOTS:
T is a deffensive and positional race -> wrong -> T needs to be very agressive (drops, all -ins) because in late game P y Z have more advantage.
Z has the movility -> wrong -> grab 3 exp, defend and go to the late game, movility? well maybe a zerling counterattack.
P low numbers of powerfull units -> wrong -> besides some all-ins, its always a 200/200 deathball.
Im a bit dissapointed.
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On February 22 2013 21:58 drkcid wrote:
I like the idea of reinstating fransform for hellions, as I said in the previous patch thread I think its better to play with times rather than unit stats for balance.
But now that we are almost at the end of the beta I think that someting is wrong in HOTS:
T is a deffensive and positional race -> wrong -> T needs to be very agressive (drops, all -ins) because in late game P y Z have more advantage.
Z has the movility -> wrong -> grab 3 exp, defend and go to the late game, movility? well maybe a zerling counterattack.
P low numbers of powerfull units -> wrong -> besides some all-ins, its always a 200/200 deathball.
Im a bit dissapointed.
that's why it's broken
races gameplay is paradoxical
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On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:20 Dvriel wrote:
[quote]
2 rax+bunker hehe
double starport banshee
mass BFH
bio drop
hellions drop
marine+siege tank push
Now,seriously,can someone tell me any early aggression that makes Zerg really suffer? Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate.
I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright.
Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really.
If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective..
I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2.
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On February 22 2013 21:58 drkcid wrote:
I like the idea of reinstating fransform for hellions, as I said in the previous patch thread I think its better to play with times rather than unit stats for balance.
But now that we are almost at the end of the beta I think that someting is wrong in HOTS:
T is a deffensive and positional race -> wrong -> T needs to be very agressive (drops, all -ins) because in late game P y Z have more advantage.
Z has the movility -> wrong -> grab 3 exp, defend and go to the late game, movility? well maybe a zerling counterattack.
P low numbers of powerfull units -> wrong -> besides some all-ins, its always a 200/200 deathball.
Im a bit dissapointed.
It's a bit better in HotS. You can actually play late-game as Terran in current beta build. I guess it can't be much worse from now on..
Protoss is going to be broken forever, because of warp-in mechanic. Skytoss is currently the new brood/inf.
Z is kinda trying to find ways how to play. Camping into brood/inf doesn't work anymore. Terran has new Thors, mines, powerfull HSM, etc.. Protoss has Tempests.
Viper is really powerful and it enables really strong mid-game for Zerg, we'll see...
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100/100 is really the max they can make a transform upgrade cost imo. Think siege tech, and it's not even in the game anymore.
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Why couldnt they just make the hellbat weaker and have the blueflame upgrade to give it its full capacity????
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Looks like yet another change which adjusts a TIMING instead of adjusting the abilities of units to fight each other.
"Dont let them get there" seems to be the only tactic to balance SC2 which Blizzard knows.
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On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 19:21 Everlong wrote:
[quote]
Ask BitByBit.. Hes gonna come up with smtn.. :D spines, queens spores, queens wall off, queens free spores mono speed lings maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2.
you are wrong on some points imo.
First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game.
Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL.
Sky Terran imo, is the strongest.
the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball.
for more details, I would direct you to read my thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592
My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air.
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WOW...
Ive tried Hellbats build, all in, 1 rak expand into hellbat, Roach counter them easy.. AND now it takes even longer to make them and more expencive to get them?
Im back too 2rak every single tvz.. cause you cant beat them in any other way if you have equal skill.
and now zerg cries cause they cant figure out how to stop pushes in 3-4 days? wow..
What about 4gate whit sentries when terran lose even whit 4 bunkers????? DO WE CRY?
What about Baneling bust? or roach timings when we try mech? WE have DIED AND DIED so many times. and stil they just NERF AND NERF AND NERF.. The skill between equal ranked terran/zerg/toss is So retarded. Im Much better than the same ranked toss /zerg in my league. I played toss for 2 days, and i won ALL my games.. LOL A move whit deathball.. super easy
WHat new do we get in hots? Mines taht is easely countered by observer/overseer? Hellbats that arent that good? the drop was kinda.. Half as good as baneling drop.. but now whit just 2, it sucks.. dropping marines is stil what i prefer and what do most damage. Im wondering if i should cancel my Hots i ordered... Its less than 22 % terran left in Master.. now it will be even less... GOod job patch zergs who A move to win.
guess ill get a warning for this. but its worth it
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Vatican City State431 Posts
They want to force Terran players to reach late game against Protoss or Zergs but they forgot that Terran high tier units are crap. If Terran doesn't do damage early in the game they have very little chances in the late game vsP or vsZ.
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On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:
[quote]
spines, queens
spores, queens
wall off, queens
free spores
mono speed lings
maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air.
Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all!
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On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:32 Rider517 wrote:
[quote]
spines, queens
spores, queens
wall off, queens
free spores
mono speed lings
maybe you are one of those that made the devs think that zerg need more early game scouting options if you die to those um..this is a stupid comment. That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines. except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest.
what? lol, skyterran
races should not have a deathball, there should not be enough minerals to make a deathball, instead the economy is so explosive that you can maxout in the first 13-15 minutes with any race
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On February 22 2013 23:25 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
um..this is a stupid comment.
That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines.
except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air. Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all!
Every pro that has talked about end game sky terran has said it is bad ass, but getting there is impossible. I am interested to see if players can find a way once the metagame for HotS becomes more stable. Zerg and terran seem to be on even footing through most of the game right now, but that could change. Skytoss + storm looks pretty dumb, but a decrease in tempest HP or something along those lines might help out. Once the skytoss “death ball” has a weak link that can be exploited, the game might level out.
It is so hard to tell at this point, with few major events really cutting into the new metagame. It took protoss a really long time to learn to only build 3 colossi before investing in storm. Longer still for terrans to build ghost. Maps have not been adapted to the new units and the races new defensive abilities. Hopefully it opens up map design, which should free up some people try new styles.
No doubt, it is going to be fun to watch.
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On February 22 2013 23:25 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
um..this is a stupid comment.
That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines.
except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air. Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all!
Jesus......He said that zerg deathball is unbeatable and I told him skyterran is even stronger but it is hard to make that transition, for more details he could go and read in that thread
Why are you repeating my points???
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LOVE IT! Now you need to also remove that medivac can heal them. also get rid of that OP tempest range wtf is that..
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On February 22 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:25 Mehukannu wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:
[quote]
What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all..
edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air. Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all! Every pro that has talked about end game sky terran has said it is bad ass, but getting there is impossible. I am interested to see if players can find a way once the metagame for HotS becomes more stable. Zerg and terran seem to be on even footing through most of the game right now, but that could change. Skytoss + storm looks pretty dumb, but a decrease in tempest HP or something along those lines might help out. Once the skytoss “death ball” has a weak link that can be exploited, the game might level out. It is so hard to tell at this point, with few major events really cutting into the new metagame. It took protoss a really long time to learn to only build 3 colossi before investing in storm. Longer still for terrans to build ghost. Maps have not been adapted to the new units and the races new defensive abilities. Hopefully it opens up map design, which should free up some people try new styles. No doubt, it is going to be fun to watch.
You mixed up "fun" with "frustrating."
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On February 23 2013 00:18 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On February 22 2013 23:25 Mehukannu wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:[quote] you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air. Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all! Every pro that has talked about end game sky terran has said it is bad ass, but getting there is impossible. I am interested to see if players can find a way once the metagame for HotS becomes more stable. Zerg and terran seem to be on even footing through most of the game right now, but that could change. Skytoss + storm looks pretty dumb, but a decrease in tempest HP or something along those lines might help out. Once the skytoss “death ball” has a weak link that can be exploited, the game might level out. It is so hard to tell at this point, with few major events really cutting into the new metagame. It took protoss a really long time to learn to only build 3 colossi before investing in storm. Longer still for terrans to build ghost. Maps have not been adapted to the new units and the races new defensive abilities. Hopefully it opens up map design, which should free up some people try new styles. No doubt, it is going to be fun to watch. You mixed up "fun" with "frustrating."
I had it right the first time.
The game was at its finest when we were trying to figure out new stuff, fighting new unit comps and figuring out safe builds. It was at it worst when every game was 1 rax FE into three bases into end game. Sentry immortal all ins racing to get their before infestors is no fun either.
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On February 22 2013 23:31 Rider517 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
um..this is a stupid comment.
That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines.
except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. what? lol, skyterran races should not have a deathball, there should not be enough minerals to make a deathball, instead the economy is so explosive that you can maxout in the first 13-15 minutes with any race
He's right.
BC + Ravens + Vikings in the correct numbers and correct upgrades is the best army you can have in WoL.
Better than broodlord infestor corruptors queens
Problem is you can't get it. It's almost impossible to reach it.
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On February 23 2013 00:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 00:18 aksfjh wrote:On February 22 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On February 22 2013 23:25 Mehukannu wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:
[quote]
You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all.
Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta.
People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on.
Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused...
OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air. Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all! Every pro that has talked about end game sky terran has said it is bad ass, but getting there is impossible. I am interested to see if players can find a way once the metagame for HotS becomes more stable. Zerg and terran seem to be on even footing through most of the game right now, but that could change. Skytoss + storm looks pretty dumb, but a decrease in tempest HP or something along those lines might help out. Once the skytoss “death ball” has a weak link that can be exploited, the game might level out. It is so hard to tell at this point, with few major events really cutting into the new metagame. It took protoss a really long time to learn to only build 3 colossi before investing in storm. Longer still for terrans to build ghost. Maps have not been adapted to the new units and the races new defensive abilities. Hopefully it opens up map design, which should free up some people try new styles. No doubt, it is going to be fun to watch. You mixed up "fun" with "frustrating." I had it right the first time. The game was at its finest when we were trying to figure out new stuff, fighting new unit comps and figuring out safe builds. It was at it worst when every game was 1 rax FE into three bases into end game. Sentry immortal all ins racing to get their before infestors is no fun either.
agree, it was fun about a year ago, now it's a little bit meh and hots looks pretty weird
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On February 23 2013 00:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 00:18 aksfjh wrote:On February 22 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On February 22 2013 23:25 Mehukannu wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:
[quote]
You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all.
Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta.
People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on.
Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused...
OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air. Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all! Every pro that has talked about end game sky terran has said it is bad ass, but getting there is impossible. I am interested to see if players can find a way once the metagame for HotS becomes more stable. Zerg and terran seem to be on even footing through most of the game right now, but that could change. Skytoss + storm looks pretty dumb, but a decrease in tempest HP or something along those lines might help out. Once the skytoss “death ball” has a weak link that can be exploited, the game might level out. It is so hard to tell at this point, with few major events really cutting into the new metagame. It took protoss a really long time to learn to only build 3 colossi before investing in storm. Longer still for terrans to build ghost. Maps have not been adapted to the new units and the races new defensive abilities. Hopefully it opens up map design, which should free up some people try new styles. No doubt, it is going to be fun to watch. You mixed up "fun" with "frustrating." I had it right the first time. The game was at its finest when we were trying to figure out new stuff, fighting new unit comps and figuring out safe builds. It was at it worst when every game was 1 rax FE into three bases into end game. Sentry immortal all ins racing to get their before infestors is no fun either.
Indeed it was. I don't see that happening with this expansion though, especially in TvZ. With this inevitable hellbat nerf, the matchup is likely to once again devolve into 13 minute hives.
In TvP, I'm half expecting each game to be decided at 10 minutes with a correct coin flip (or money scan) of investing in enough air defense against oracles or too much air defense against the 5 other all-ins. I guess that will be "fun" to an extent though.
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On February 23 2013 00:28 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:31 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:
[quote]
What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all..
edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. what? lol, skyterran races should not have a deathball, there should not be enough minerals to make a deathball, instead the economy is so explosive that you can maxout in the first 13-15 minutes with any race He's right. BC + Ravens + Vikings in the correct numbers and correct upgrades is the best army you can have in WoL. Better than broodlord infestor corruptors queens Problem is you can't get it. It's almost impossible to reach it.
Go watch Metropolis game of Mvp vs Squirtle.
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On February 23 2013 00:28 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:31 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:
[quote]
What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all..
edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. what? lol, skyterran races should not have a deathball, there should not be enough minerals to make a deathball, instead the economy is so explosive that you can maxout in the first 13-15 minutes with any race He's right. BC + Ravens + Vikings in the correct numbers and correct upgrades is the best army you can have in WoL. Better than broodlord infestor corruptors queens Problem is you can't get it. It's almost impossible to reach it.
BC, Raven, Viking, Thor is the best army in the game. Bar none. It is quite ridiculous just how hard it is to deal with. Even trades blow for blow with Skytoss if you toss in a ghost or two.
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On February 22 2013 23:00 Rabiator wrote:
Looks like yet another change which adjusts a TIMING instead of adjusting the abilities of units to fight each other.
"Dont let them get there" seems to be the only tactic to balance SC2 which Blizzard knows.
Well.. Yeah. That's kind of the point. The extra 110s is an eternity at that stage of the game, nevermind the tech lab requirement. They don't want mass hellbats to be easy to defend otherwise what is the point of the unit, exactly? They could probably use a small numbers nerf, but nothing gigantic.
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On February 23 2013 02:28 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 00:28 Noocta wrote:On February 22 2013 23:31 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:[quote] you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. what? lol, skyterran races should not have a deathball, there should not be enough minerals to make a deathball, instead the economy is so explosive that you can maxout in the first 13-15 minutes with any race He's right. BC + Ravens + Vikings in the correct numbers and correct upgrades is the best army you can have in WoL. Better than broodlord infestor corruptors queens Problem is you can't get it. It's almost impossible to reach it. BC, Raven, Viking, Thor is the best army in the game. Bar none. It is quite ridiculous just how hard it is to deal with. Even trades blow for blow with Skytoss if you toss in a ghost or two.
I think that's pretty fair though, considering how hard it is to get up the production to support even one army with that composition.
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Now that they have looked at the problems with early game TvZ. How about looking at the speed at which creep spread can be done by top pros. In my opinion, this is one of the things that is killing WoL TvZ right now. The Zerg simply has too much vision.
I know caster always comment about that awesome Zerg army surround on the bio/tank of Terran. But honestly, when you have full vision of an army that needs to be sieged up to be effective at all. Is it really hard to surround it with super fast units? And weren't Blizzard planning a creep spread nerf before Mvp won IEM?
And why 110 seconds? That seems to just remove the timings all together. Why not try something like 60 to see how it goes? 110 seconds is a long time. I mean terrans in WoL are dying a lot to early roach busts, should we add 110 seconds to the roach warren build time?
And will they now revert the cargo requirement? Or will hellbats get a double nerf?
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On February 22 2013 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Wow, the Terran whiners in this thread are completely out of control...Let's get a count of what changed early game with Zerg and Terran from WoL to HotS:
Terran:
- Widow Mines
- No Siege upgrade
- Medivac Boost
- Reaper auto-heal
- Hellbats
Zerg:
- Tier 1 Overlord Speed
- Tier 1 Burrow
Yeah, clearly Blizzard is trying to destroy early game Terran.
Lol, if you are going to count tanks, medivacs, and the new hellbats as early game units, then you should add in hydras, mutas, and swamp hosts as well.
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On February 23 2013 02:59 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Wow, the Terran whiners in this thread are completely out of control...Let's get a count of what changed early game with Zerg and Terran from WoL to HotS:
Terran:
- Widow Mines
- No Siege upgrade
- Medivac Boost
- Reaper auto-heal
- Hellbats
Zerg:
- Tier 1 Overlord Speed
- Tier 1 Burrow
Yeah, clearly Blizzard is trying to destroy early game Terran. Lol, if you are going to count tanks, medivacs, and the new hellbats as early game units, then you should add in hydras, mutas, and swamp hosts as well.
Yes, he should. The hydra movement buff alone gives them power to do stutter-step micro on creep.
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On February 23 2013 03:02 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 02:59 vthree wrote:On February 22 2013 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Wow, the Terran whiners in this thread are completely out of control...Let's get a count of what changed early game with Zerg and Terran from WoL to HotS:
Terran:
- Widow Mines
- No Siege upgrade
- Medivac Boost
- Reaper auto-heal
- Hellbats
Zerg:
- Tier 1 Overlord Speed
- Tier 1 Burrow
Yeah, clearly Blizzard is trying to destroy early game Terran. Lol, if you are going to count tanks, medivacs, and the new hellbats as early game units, then you should add in hydras, mutas, and swamp hosts as well. Yes, he should. The hydra movement buff alone gives them power to do stutter-step micro on creep.
Hydra movement speed on creep is actually unaffected - they only get the speed increase off creep.
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Also, I think with this new change, zergs can get mutas out to defend vs hellbats and once again, zergs can now skip the roach warren for early game defense... Can we get 110 second build time to spire since these new faster mutas are now too good.
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On February 23 2013 02:45 vthree wrote:
Now that they have looked at the problems with early game TvZ. How about looking at the speed at which creep spread can be done by top pros. In my opinion, this is one of the things that is killing WoL TvZ right now. The Zerg simply has too much vision.
I know caster always comment about that awesome Zerg army surround on the bio/tank of Terran. But honestly, when you have full vision of an army that needs to be sieged up to be effective at all. Is it really hard to surround it with super fast units? And weren't Blizzard planning a creep spread nerf before Mvp won IEM?
Creep spread is one of the best concept implemented in sc2, it takes great multitasking to spread it while executing your BO, so i'm fine with it. But I think the creep should grow and disappear at the same speed rate, it's kind of frustrating when an overlord decides to shit on your next expo and delays it for 60 seconds or so.
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On February 23 2013 03:25 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 02:45 vthree wrote:
Now that they have looked at the problems with early game TvZ. How about looking at the speed at which creep spread can be done by top pros. In my opinion, this is one of the things that is killing WoL TvZ right now. The Zerg simply has too much vision.
I know caster always comment about that awesome Zerg army surround on the bio/tank of Terran. But honestly, when you have full vision of an army that needs to be sieged up to be effective at all. Is it really hard to surround it with super fast units? And weren't Blizzard planning a creep spread nerf before Mvp won IEM?
Creep spread is one of the best concept implemented in sc2, it takes great multitasking to spread it while executing your BO, so i'm fine with it. But I think the creep should grow and disappear at the same speed rate, it's kind of frustrating when an overlord decides to shit on your next expo and delays it for 60 seconds or so.
I am not saying we should get rid of creep. But the top pros now are just too good. And the other 2 races don't have similar APM dumps which gives them similar advantages.
It also takes great multitask to use speed medivacs to drop and pickup hellbats to chase drones while executing your BO. Doesn't make it not 'OP'.
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On February 23 2013 00:26 Plansix wrote:
The game was at its finest when we were trying to figure out new stuff, fighting new unit comps and figuring out safe builds. It was at it worst when every game was 1 rax FE into three bases into end game. Sentry immortal all ins racing to get their before infestors is no fun either.
On February 23 2013 00:29 Rider517 wrote:
agree, it was fun about a year ago, now it's a little bit meh and hots looks pretty weird
I wish Blizzard could see, and understand this. Things like the MSC with it's Nexus Cannon allows the Protoss to be a lot safer and greedier and reduces variety in the game, and make it boring. It really hurts the game when so many early game timings are simply shut down by one click. Certainly takes away a lot of the skill required to play SC2 too.
The map pool also plays a role, every map is so similar where it is so easy to take 3 bases because instead of fixing 200/200 Roach pushes in ZvP, they made every map the same... boring.
Blizzard needs to understand that variety makes the game fun, fresh and exciting, and that timings pushes are okay, so long as they can be reasonably stopped with skill (the Nexus Cannon doesn't take any skill) if well scouted (which was not the case at one point with 4 Gates, the 1-1-1, and Immortal Sentry all-in, and 200/200 Roach armies). I find it quite boring when every game is 20 minutes of macro and light harass leading up to one 30 second engagement with the same old late units in deathball combat. It is always the same, I can predict exactly what will happen when I play versus Terran. They will likely open 1 Rax FE, turtle while building MM, then get Medivacs and harass while taking a 3rd or all-in me. Occasionally they will try some one base garbage that fails miserably unless I make a mistake because my build (or I should say Sase's) is well thought out and safe.
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On February 23 2013 02:20 DidYuhim wrote:
Go watch Metropolis game of Mvp vs Squirtle.
Everyone watched that game, and everyone, including the MVP himself, said that he just got bored and a-clicked without microing. And those were almost pure Battle Cruisers, if he added Ravens, and Vikings, and actually did the basic spreading, the game would be long over for Squirtle.
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Zerg would be much more fun to play if there was no queen / larvae worked like bw
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On February 23 2013 02:59 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Wow, the Terran whiners in this thread are completely out of control...Let's get a count of what changed early game with Zerg and Terran from WoL to HotS:
Terran:
- Widow Mines
- No Siege upgrade
- Medivac Boost
- Reaper auto-heal
- Hellbats
Zerg:
- Tier 1 Overlord Speed
- Tier 1 Burrow
Yeah, clearly Blizzard is trying to destroy early game Terran. Lol, if you are going to count tanks, medivacs, and the new hellbats as early game units, then you should add in hydras, mutas, and swamp hosts as well.
And please tell, why "should" I include those? If this is going to be a useless Tier discussion, please don't bother saying anything at all.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On February 22 2013 03:29 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:27 Plansix wrote:On February 22 2013 03:25 c0sm0naut wrote:On February 22 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:
Seems very reasonable if the upgrade doesn't take forever or cost a mint. I am glad they are keeping the unit powerful, since it is a back bone unit and should be viable.
Also - this is clearly a quick fix to solve one specific, early game issue, rather than a full patch for all three races. I am sure they are looking at other stuff. The wording seems to me to imply it will return at the same time/cost You should include that in the OP for people to reference, since I don't even remember what it was. Still sounds like a good fix to a rising problem. I don't remember either, haha. Will be happy to if some shows me the numbers Edit: and yes I agree. I think tvt will benefit the most however
I'm going to miss easy wins where my opponents go for hellbat drop
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EPT
