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On February 22 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:25 Mehukannu wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:
[quote]
What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all..
edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air. Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all! Every pro that has talked about end game sky terran has said it is bad ass, but getting there is impossible. I am interested to see if players can find a way once the metagame for HotS becomes more stable. Zerg and terran seem to be on even footing through most of the game right now, but that could change. Skytoss + storm looks pretty dumb, but a decrease in tempest HP or something along those lines might help out. Once the skytoss “death ball” has a weak link that can be exploited, the game might level out. It is so hard to tell at this point, with few major events really cutting into the new metagame. It took protoss a really long time to learn to only build 3 colossi before investing in storm. Longer still for terrans to build ghost. Maps have not been adapted to the new units and the races new defensive abilities. Hopefully it opens up map design, which should free up some people try new styles. No doubt, it is going to be fun to watch.
You mixed up "fun" with "frustrating."
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On February 23 2013 00:18 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On February 22 2013 23:25 Mehukannu wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:[quote] you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air. Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all! Every pro that has talked about end game sky terran has said it is bad ass, but getting there is impossible. I am interested to see if players can find a way once the metagame for HotS becomes more stable. Zerg and terran seem to be on even footing through most of the game right now, but that could change. Skytoss + storm looks pretty dumb, but a decrease in tempest HP or something along those lines might help out. Once the skytoss “death ball” has a weak link that can be exploited, the game might level out. It is so hard to tell at this point, with few major events really cutting into the new metagame. It took protoss a really long time to learn to only build 3 colossi before investing in storm. Longer still for terrans to build ghost. Maps have not been adapted to the new units and the races new defensive abilities. Hopefully it opens up map design, which should free up some people try new styles. No doubt, it is going to be fun to watch. You mixed up "fun" with "frustrating."
I had it right the first time.
The game was at its finest when we were trying to figure out new stuff, fighting new unit comps and figuring out safe builds. It was at it worst when every game was 1 rax FE into three bases into end game. Sentry immortal all ins racing to get their before infestors is no fun either.
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On February 22 2013 23:31 Rider517 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 19:39 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
um..this is a stupid comment.
That's like saying to defend oracle opening, you need missile turrets and marines.
except the game isn't so simple. What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all.. edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. what? lol, skyterran races should not have a deathball, there should not be enough minerals to make a deathball, instead the economy is so explosive that you can maxout in the first 13-15 minutes with any race
He's right.
BC + Ravens + Vikings in the correct numbers and correct upgrades is the best army you can have in WoL.
Better than broodlord infestor corruptors queens
Problem is you can't get it. It's almost impossible to reach it.
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On February 23 2013 00:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 00:18 aksfjh wrote:On February 22 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On February 22 2013 23:25 Mehukannu wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:
[quote]
You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all.
Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta.
People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on.
Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused...
OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air. Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all! Every pro that has talked about end game sky terran has said it is bad ass, but getting there is impossible. I am interested to see if players can find a way once the metagame for HotS becomes more stable. Zerg and terran seem to be on even footing through most of the game right now, but that could change. Skytoss + storm looks pretty dumb, but a decrease in tempest HP or something along those lines might help out. Once the skytoss “death ball” has a weak link that can be exploited, the game might level out. It is so hard to tell at this point, with few major events really cutting into the new metagame. It took protoss a really long time to learn to only build 3 colossi before investing in storm. Longer still for terrans to build ghost. Maps have not been adapted to the new units and the races new defensive abilities. Hopefully it opens up map design, which should free up some people try new styles. No doubt, it is going to be fun to watch. You mixed up "fun" with "frustrating." I had it right the first time. The game was at its finest when we were trying to figure out new stuff, fighting new unit comps and figuring out safe builds. It was at it worst when every game was 1 rax FE into three bases into end game. Sentry immortal all ins racing to get their before infestors is no fun either.
agree, it was fun about a year ago, now it's a little bit meh and hots looks pretty weird
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On February 23 2013 00:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 00:18 aksfjh wrote:On February 22 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On February 22 2013 23:25 Mehukannu wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:
[quote]
You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all.
Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta.
People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on.
Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused...
OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. you are wrong on some points imo. First, spines and spores are always set up in mid game. Excessive spines and spores to help defending the weak timing for morphing broodlords, or to help stop drops etc. But I was talking about spines and spores being expensive in early game. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. the problem is how difficult it is to transition into this skydeathball. for more details, I would direct you to read my thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=39592My opinion on what is design flaw is whether the game should have an unbeatable deathball. And whether sky deathball is too powerful because of the ability to ignore units that cannot shoot air. Lol, sky terran is so freaking rare that it is strong because almost no one has ever fought against it. That in it self would make it the worst death ball in the game, because it isn't reliable at all! Every pro that has talked about end game sky terran has said it is bad ass, but getting there is impossible. I am interested to see if players can find a way once the metagame for HotS becomes more stable. Zerg and terran seem to be on even footing through most of the game right now, but that could change. Skytoss + storm looks pretty dumb, but a decrease in tempest HP or something along those lines might help out. Once the skytoss “death ball” has a weak link that can be exploited, the game might level out. It is so hard to tell at this point, with few major events really cutting into the new metagame. It took protoss a really long time to learn to only build 3 colossi before investing in storm. Longer still for terrans to build ghost. Maps have not been adapted to the new units and the races new defensive abilities. Hopefully it opens up map design, which should free up some people try new styles. No doubt, it is going to be fun to watch. You mixed up "fun" with "frustrating." I had it right the first time. The game was at its finest when we were trying to figure out new stuff, fighting new unit comps and figuring out safe builds. It was at it worst when every game was 1 rax FE into three bases into end game. Sentry immortal all ins racing to get their before infestors is no fun either.
Indeed it was. I don't see that happening with this expansion though, especially in TvZ. With this inevitable hellbat nerf, the matchup is likely to once again devolve into 13 minute hives.
In TvP, I'm half expecting each game to be decided at 10 minutes with a correct coin flip (or money scan) of investing in enough air defense against oracles or too much air defense against the 5 other all-ins. I guess that will be "fun" to an extent though.
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On February 23 2013 00:28 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:31 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:
[quote]
What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all..
edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. what? lol, skyterran races should not have a deathball, there should not be enough minerals to make a deathball, instead the economy is so explosive that you can maxout in the first 13-15 minutes with any race He's right. BC + Ravens + Vikings in the correct numbers and correct upgrades is the best army you can have in WoL. Better than broodlord infestor corruptors queens Problem is you can't get it. It's almost impossible to reach it.
Go watch Metropolis game of Mvp vs Squirtle.
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On February 23 2013 00:28 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 23:31 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 19:40 Everlong wrote:
[quote]
What exactly is stupid about it? Also, what is wrong with missile turrets and marines defending oracle? I don't get your post at all..
edit: If you question you need both Missile Turrets and Marines, well.. Marines alone are not enough. You can't tell if he is only going for 1 oracle, or for 2-3 oracles. Missile Turret is of course safe and definitive answer to Oracles, but it's also huge investment just for the sake of the possibility he is going Oracles.. Compare this to Crawlers/Queens for Zerg and you have basic idea, how broken or not things are.. you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. what? lol, skyterran races should not have a deathball, there should not be enough minerals to make a deathball, instead the economy is so explosive that you can maxout in the first 13-15 minutes with any race He's right. BC + Ravens + Vikings in the correct numbers and correct upgrades is the best army you can have in WoL. Better than broodlord infestor corruptors queens Problem is you can't get it. It's almost impossible to reach it.
BC, Raven, Viking, Thor is the best army in the game. Bar none. It is quite ridiculous just how hard it is to deal with. Even trades blow for blow with Skytoss if you toss in a ghost or two.
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On February 22 2013 23:00 Rabiator wrote:
Looks like yet another change which adjusts a TIMING instead of adjusting the abilities of units to fight each other.
"Dont let them get there" seems to be the only tactic to balance SC2 which Blizzard knows.
Well.. Yeah. That's kind of the point. The extra 110s is an eternity at that stage of the game, nevermind the tech lab requirement. They don't want mass hellbats to be easy to defend otherwise what is the point of the unit, exactly? They could probably use a small numbers nerf, but nothing gigantic.
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On February 23 2013 02:28 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 00:28 Noocta wrote:On February 22 2013 23:31 Rider517 wrote:On February 22 2013 23:02 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 22:12 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:44 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:22 ETisME wrote:On February 22 2013 21:17 Everlong wrote:On February 22 2013 21:11 ETisME wrote:[quote] you don't get it, do you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399311Sure, the best possible solution is missile turrets at perfect solution, get a high marine number. but try read through the terran perspective, and don't forget you don't know what is coming exactly. Or just read how protoss are complaining about the other builds terran can throw at them after the scout is denied by the 2nd depot. People say 2 rax bunker rush is impossible and I have seen on stream, pro zerg still losing to bunker rush plain and simple. Some toss still losing to 1/1/1 in SPL. that GSL final, MVP beat life a few games with just blue flame hellions while opening looks exactly the same for almost all the games. So am I right to say, to beat anything in Hots, you just need HT, tempest, void ray and archons because there aren't a counter to this deathball? You have to be more clear, I don't understeand your arguments at all. Like, are we discussing what? Oracles being hard to hold or easy to hold? I can give you some feedback on TvP Oracle defense, because I've faced it like 100 times as Terran in beta. People lose to random stuff here and there. That is no argument you can build on. Of course you don't have to go HT/Tempest/Voidray to win in HotS. If you get there, great, you will most likely win in current beta build, but why are you even asking this in the first place? I'm confused... OK What I meant was: listing nothing but the counter to those builds doesn't mean anything. Just like saying Oracle just requires missile turrets and marines, when there are other things to consider such as what if it was a void ray all in. Was it a proxy'd stargate etc Then assuming sky toss has no counter, by that logic, he cannot list counter meaning sky toss = sure win? I see.. I expect people here to have basic idea how the game flows and that context is always taken into account. So, by listing unit counters, surely I do expect people to know, what does it take to get them, when do they get them, and so on... So by saying spine/spore + queen makes for free 3 base 80 drone eco freeway highway into late-geme I take into account everything Protoss and Terran can throw on Zerg to possibly deny it. As it seems right now, Hellbats are (along with Reaper shenenigans) the only way to force units from Zerg before they get their 60-80 drones up. You can do crazy 1-2base allins, sure. But it's been proven multiple times that those are relatively easy countered if you are prepared and you basically only lose if you overdrone, or just don't make units in the right time. See last 1 year of WoL... At least this is my view on this issue. It's not that easy when you aren't sure what is coming. Making spines and spores sure are easy way to stay alive in early game but when it comes to the competitive level, there is a reason why pro don't throw down random spines and spores until they have a good economy running. What last 1 year of WoL showed us was the super powerful bl/infestor ball, not the 60-80 drones. They are related but not the cause of zerg winning so many games last year. If there were no broodlords for example, I am pretty sure T and P would have a much easier time in matchup against Z simply because those 60-80 drones can only produce an army that T and P are able to beat easier. and 2 base all ins are really not easy countered. Especially in PvZ where 2 base all in style is so dominate. I think Zerg players have currenty more then enough tools to scout, what is comming. But allright. Also, as a Zerg, you starve on gas, not on minerals. So Crawlers should not slow down your economy really. If there were no Broodlords, I'm pretty sure, no one would ever play this defensive playstyle. But guess what, there are Broodlords in the game. The problem is, there is the most ridiculous deathball in WoL you can imagine, Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor + Queen and mass Crawlers. Nothing is going to beat that. Now, what race has this deathball to its disposal? Well, the race with best production capabilities, macro, mapcontrol and mobility. No wonder, every Zerg is going for this composition. The game is balanced in a way to make sure P and T have chance to kill Zerg before they "get there". Which, frankly, is terrible from design perspective.. I might be wrong, but this is really what I'm watching last year of Starcraft 2. Broodlords/infestors/corruptor and queens is not the ultimate deathball in WoL. Sky Terran imo, is the strongest. what? lol, skyterran races should not have a deathball, there should not be enough minerals to make a deathball, instead the economy is so explosive that you can maxout in the first 13-15 minutes with any race He's right. BC + Ravens + Vikings in the correct numbers and correct upgrades is the best army you can have in WoL. Better than broodlord infestor corruptors queens Problem is you can't get it. It's almost impossible to reach it. BC, Raven, Viking, Thor is the best army in the game. Bar none. It is quite ridiculous just how hard it is to deal with. Even trades blow for blow with Skytoss if you toss in a ghost or two.
I think that's pretty fair though, considering how hard it is to get up the production to support even one army with that composition.
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Now that they have looked at the problems with early game TvZ. How about looking at the speed at which creep spread can be done by top pros. In my opinion, this is one of the things that is killing WoL TvZ right now. The Zerg simply has too much vision.
I know caster always comment about that awesome Zerg army surround on the bio/tank of Terran. But honestly, when you have full vision of an army that needs to be sieged up to be effective at all. Is it really hard to surround it with super fast units? And weren't Blizzard planning a creep spread nerf before Mvp won IEM?
And why 110 seconds? That seems to just remove the timings all together. Why not try something like 60 to see how it goes? 110 seconds is a long time. I mean terrans in WoL are dying a lot to early roach busts, should we add 110 seconds to the roach warren build time?
And will they now revert the cargo requirement? Or will hellbats get a double nerf?
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On February 22 2013 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Wow, the Terran whiners in this thread are completely out of control...Let's get a count of what changed early game with Zerg and Terran from WoL to HotS:
Terran:
- Widow Mines
- No Siege upgrade
- Medivac Boost
- Reaper auto-heal
- Hellbats
Zerg:
- Tier 1 Overlord Speed
- Tier 1 Burrow
Yeah, clearly Blizzard is trying to destroy early game Terran.
Lol, if you are going to count tanks, medivacs, and the new hellbats as early game units, then you should add in hydras, mutas, and swamp hosts as well.
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On February 23 2013 02:59 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Wow, the Terran whiners in this thread are completely out of control...Let's get a count of what changed early game with Zerg and Terran from WoL to HotS:
Terran:
- Widow Mines
- No Siege upgrade
- Medivac Boost
- Reaper auto-heal
- Hellbats
Zerg:
- Tier 1 Overlord Speed
- Tier 1 Burrow
Yeah, clearly Blizzard is trying to destroy early game Terran. Lol, if you are going to count tanks, medivacs, and the new hellbats as early game units, then you should add in hydras, mutas, and swamp hosts as well.
Yes, he should. The hydra movement buff alone gives them power to do stutter-step micro on creep.
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On February 23 2013 03:02 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 02:59 vthree wrote:On February 22 2013 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Wow, the Terran whiners in this thread are completely out of control...Let's get a count of what changed early game with Zerg and Terran from WoL to HotS:
Terran:
- Widow Mines
- No Siege upgrade
- Medivac Boost
- Reaper auto-heal
- Hellbats
Zerg:
- Tier 1 Overlord Speed
- Tier 1 Burrow
Yeah, clearly Blizzard is trying to destroy early game Terran. Lol, if you are going to count tanks, medivacs, and the new hellbats as early game units, then you should add in hydras, mutas, and swamp hosts as well. Yes, he should. The hydra movement buff alone gives them power to do stutter-step micro on creep.
Hydra movement speed on creep is actually unaffected - they only get the speed increase off creep.
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Also, I think with this new change, zergs can get mutas out to defend vs hellbats and once again, zergs can now skip the roach warren for early game defense... Can we get 110 second build time to spire since these new faster mutas are now too good.
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On February 23 2013 02:45 vthree wrote:
Now that they have looked at the problems with early game TvZ. How about looking at the speed at which creep spread can be done by top pros. In my opinion, this is one of the things that is killing WoL TvZ right now. The Zerg simply has too much vision.
I know caster always comment about that awesome Zerg army surround on the bio/tank of Terran. But honestly, when you have full vision of an army that needs to be sieged up to be effective at all. Is it really hard to surround it with super fast units? And weren't Blizzard planning a creep spread nerf before Mvp won IEM?
Creep spread is one of the best concept implemented in sc2, it takes great multitasking to spread it while executing your BO, so i'm fine with it. But I think the creep should grow and disappear at the same speed rate, it's kind of frustrating when an overlord decides to shit on your next expo and delays it for 60 seconds or so.
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On February 23 2013 03:25 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 02:45 vthree wrote:
Now that they have looked at the problems with early game TvZ. How about looking at the speed at which creep spread can be done by top pros. In my opinion, this is one of the things that is killing WoL TvZ right now. The Zerg simply has too much vision.
I know caster always comment about that awesome Zerg army surround on the bio/tank of Terran. But honestly, when you have full vision of an army that needs to be sieged up to be effective at all. Is it really hard to surround it with super fast units? And weren't Blizzard planning a creep spread nerf before Mvp won IEM?
Creep spread is one of the best concept implemented in sc2, it takes great multitasking to spread it while executing your BO, so i'm fine with it. But I think the creep should grow and disappear at the same speed rate, it's kind of frustrating when an overlord decides to shit on your next expo and delays it for 60 seconds or so.
I am not saying we should get rid of creep. But the top pros now are just too good. And the other 2 races don't have similar APM dumps which gives them similar advantages.
It also takes great multitask to use speed medivacs to drop and pickup hellbats to chase drones while executing your BO. Doesn't make it not 'OP'.
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On February 23 2013 00:26 Plansix wrote:
The game was at its finest when we were trying to figure out new stuff, fighting new unit comps and figuring out safe builds. It was at it worst when every game was 1 rax FE into three bases into end game. Sentry immortal all ins racing to get their before infestors is no fun either.
On February 23 2013 00:29 Rider517 wrote:
agree, it was fun about a year ago, now it's a little bit meh and hots looks pretty weird
I wish Blizzard could see, and understand this. Things like the MSC with it's Nexus Cannon allows the Protoss to be a lot safer and greedier and reduces variety in the game, and make it boring. It really hurts the game when so many early game timings are simply shut down by one click. Certainly takes away a lot of the skill required to play SC2 too.
The map pool also plays a role, every map is so similar where it is so easy to take 3 bases because instead of fixing 200/200 Roach pushes in ZvP, they made every map the same... boring.
Blizzard needs to understand that variety makes the game fun, fresh and exciting, and that timings pushes are okay, so long as they can be reasonably stopped with skill (the Nexus Cannon doesn't take any skill) if well scouted (which was not the case at one point with 4 Gates, the 1-1-1, and Immortal Sentry all-in, and 200/200 Roach armies). I find it quite boring when every game is 20 minutes of macro and light harass leading up to one 30 second engagement with the same old late units in deathball combat. It is always the same, I can predict exactly what will happen when I play versus Terran. They will likely open 1 Rax FE, turtle while building MM, then get Medivacs and harass while taking a 3rd or all-in me. Occasionally they will try some one base garbage that fails miserably unless I make a mistake because my build (or I should say Sase's) is well thought out and safe.
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On February 23 2013 02:20 DidYuhim wrote:
Go watch Metropolis game of Mvp vs Squirtle.
Everyone watched that game, and everyone, including the MVP himself, said that he just got bored and a-clicked without microing. And those were almost pure Battle Cruisers, if he added Ravens, and Vikings, and actually did the basic spreading, the game would be long over for Squirtle.
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Zerg would be much more fun to play if there was no queen / larvae worked like bw
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On February 23 2013 02:59 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 16:42 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Wow, the Terran whiners in this thread are completely out of control...Let's get a count of what changed early game with Zerg and Terran from WoL to HotS:
Terran:
- Widow Mines
- No Siege upgrade
- Medivac Boost
- Reaper auto-heal
- Hellbats
Zerg:
- Tier 1 Overlord Speed
- Tier 1 Burrow
Yeah, clearly Blizzard is trying to destroy early game Terran. Lol, if you are going to count tanks, medivacs, and the new hellbats as early game units, then you should add in hydras, mutas, and swamp hosts as well.
And please tell, why "should" I include those? If this is going to be a useless Tier discussion, please don't bother saying anything at all.
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EPT
