On February 16 2013 01:54 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Technically stuff that "happens in beta" isnt canon yet and thus no changes in beta are actually "nerfs". Such radical changes as being able to heal a "mechanical unit" and the "speed boost for Medivacs" have to be thought about a lot and it is they who are the real cause of problems with the Battle Hellion IMO. Instead of Battle Hellions the Terran could use Widow Mines for instance. For an early rush that is pretty annoying at least and the speed boost increases the success chance of such a tactic by far too much IMO.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
I never demanded a nerf, in fact the original change I proposed has both pros and cons for the unit (making hellbats armored-type instead of light) and I certainly wouldn't want drastic changes made from my experiences alone. I was just sharing my personal perspective, and you're welcome to disagree with it but thanks for suggesting that I'm some menace to society for having an opinion. Or maybe you were just trying to be snarky.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Sorry for this offtopic post but i can no longer tolerate such BS: Please STOP talking about military equipment. You have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Every single thing you said about smgs, lee enfield rifles, cavalry or hinds and abrams was fuckin wrong.
On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Sorry for this offtopic post but i can no longer tolerate such BS: Please STOP talking about military equipment. You have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Every single thing you said about smgs, lee enfield rifles, cavalry or hinds and abrams was fuckin wrong.
On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
And TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...? I have been a military history buff since 1988, sure I got mixed up the standard issue of US Army in 1945, but who are you to tell us all this information is wrong? Are you telling us a tank regiment consisting ENTIRELY of M1Abrams are able to take down Russian gunships without Anti-air support? This is an incredible claim indeed, or cavalry military deployments in fire fights post World War 2, please provide evidence.
My interest in SC2 is as a military strategic simulator not a game, the founders of SC franchise have made the closest thing to a real time war game.
In the real world, there is no Blizzard to reduce the effectiveness of flame throwers because of human-alien/sentient rights. No, the Terran Confederation is fighting for its life, as are the Zerg and the Protoss. The whole POINT of war is to win with the least losses. Of course as a game, if one side is powerful, the others must be equally powerful within their own operational doctrines.
Commercially speaking, let's examine Dark Age of Camelot, released in 2001, its player base reached 250,000 in 2002 before finally falling off to 50,000 in 2008 from competition from Everquest II and World of Warcraft. Why?
Click the links, use the search bar and search "nerf" within the DAoC ZAM forum. One of the reasons the game "died" was a result of "Too many nerfbats to the face" syndrome.
Re: New unit X vs. old units If its strong, it IS supposed to be strong, I've been following the beta since day 1 and I can tell you, the bio-tag was a suggestion from poster on TL that suggested it for ADDITIONAL utility as a opening drop. Now ass clowns are saying AHMERGERD IMBA instead of you know... learning and adapting the NEW game.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Sorry for this offtopic post but i can no longer tolerate such BS: Please STOP talking about military equipment. You have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Every single thing you said about smgs, lee enfield rifles, cavalry or hinds and abrams was fuckin wrong.
On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
And TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...? I have been a military history buff since 1988, sure I got mixed up the standard issue of US Army in 1945, but who are you to tell us all this information is wrong? Are you telling us a tank regiment consisting ENTIRELY of M1Abrams are able to take down Russian gunships without Anti-air support? This is an incredible claim indeed, or cavalry military deployments in fire fights post World War 2, please provide evidence.
My interest in SC2 is as a military strategic simulator not a game, the founders of SC franchise have made the closest thing to a real time war game.
In the real world, there is no ruling authority to
You're ridiculous. You're a buff in history. Good for you but no one care and no one want to verify that in this thread. "A nerfed game is a dead game". Were you telling the same speech when infestor broodlord was raping terran left and right ? I assume not.
"I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation." If you dont know what's the correct answer then you cant just throw around that this is balanced, you have to bring arguments. Saying "It's not my problem, be creative" isnt an argument.
"In the real world, there is no ruling authority to " It's just the beta of a fucking videogame, please land on earth with us.
PS : Also what the fuck does "TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...?" means ? Why should they believe you over this guy ?
On February 16 2013 05:15 submarine wrote:On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
If you have watched HotS streams since patch, 4 Hellbat drops require 2 Medivacs now, and come at a much more defendable timing. More importantly, they aren't bringing the majority of their units with the drops anymore, just a few units, where as before they could easily have enough unit to defend (except in TvT) while bringing the majority of their forces over in the drop.
Not sure if you have watched the streams pre-patch or post-patch, but things aren't so bad anymore. Resume from replay is an amazing feature. You really can test different reactions from the earliest point you are able to scout something, to see if you can respond to something in a reasonable amount of time. Using this I haven't ran in to anything that I couldn't defend properly post-patch, but I admit pre-patch it was extremely random.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Sorry for this offtopic post but i can no longer tolerate such BS: Please STOP talking about military equipment. You have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Every single thing you said about smgs, lee enfield rifles, cavalry or hinds and abrams was fuckin wrong.
On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
And TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...? I have been a military history buff since 1988, sure I got mixed up the standard issue of US Army in 1945, but who are you to tell us all this information is wrong? Are you telling us a tank regiment consisting ENTIRELY of M1Abrams are able to take down Russian gunships without Anti-air support? This is an incredible claim indeed, or cavalry military deployments in fire fights post World War 2, please provide evidence.
My interest in SC2 is as a military strategic simulator not a game, the founders of SC franchise have made the closest thing to a real time war game.
In the real world, there is no ruling authority to
You're ridiculous. You're a buff in history. Good for you but no one care and no one want to verify that in this thread. "A nerfed game is a dead game". Were you telling the same speech when infestor broodlord was raping terran left and right ? I assume not.
"I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation." If you dont know what's the correct answer then you cant just throw around that this is balanced, you have to bring arguments. Saying "It's not my problem, be creative" isnt an argument.
"In the real world, there is no ruling authority to " It's just the beta of a fucking videogame, please land on earth with us.
PS : Also what the fuck does "TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...?" means ? Why should they believe you over this guy ?
Yes, I was. Use the search feature. I support infestor-broodlord because I support the theory that EVERY race should have a gas intense ultimate T3 composition, similar to how a secondary objective in chess was to prevent the opponent's pawn from reaching your end of the board to prevent a SECOND queen to enter play and to bring your own pawn into their end of the board to get your own SECOND queen and so forth.
Without this dynamic, there would be no point in reaching the end of the tech tree in the first place. One of the reasons, I believe that led to the massive drop in pro-player and spectator base in the last two years. Terrans simply did not have a reason to tech up beyond kill them before P and Z reached their end of the tech tree, and thus were stuck with only two options, multi-prong drops or macro 4 base, MMMVG at 40min push for-the-win or bust.
I have posted numerous counters including the "5-roach-two-queen with burrow micro" defense against Terran drops in an earlier thread before. Hence the statement. I had already given a viable counter composition, now you want a Build Order? That's demanding too much IMO. I'm a well-educated spectator hoping that one day SC2 will be taken as a serious intellectual sport, not a kids game.
I am not part the Zerg pro-community.
It is reasonable IMHO to produce a viable composition of 5 roaches with burrow researched at 6min with at least one creep queen storing up 100 energy for the possible drop which your well-spread creep, zerglings on the watch-towers and overlords should spot the incoming medivac.
Because references?
"In the real world, there is no ruling authority to " It's just the beta of a fucking videogame, please land on earth with us.
If you want SC2 to remain "a fucking videogame", then I see where we differ. Nothing else to be said which earth you are in.
On February 16 2013 13:49 Rowrin wrote: The nerf was definitly needed, but the more I look at terran in HoTS the only thing I can see is a race held together with bandaids and duct-tape.
It didn't use to be that way, but, with the various indirect nerfs the race sustained over WoL, it takes an extremely talented player to hold the race together. HotS seems better. However, in hindsight, nobody really should have thought that Terran was "more complete than the other 2 races."
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Sorry for this offtopic post but i can no longer tolerate such BS: Please STOP talking about military equipment. You have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Every single thing you said about smgs, lee enfield rifles, cavalry or hinds and abrams was fuckin wrong.
On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
And TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...? I have been a military history buff since 1988, sure I got mixed up the standard issue of US Army in 1945, but who are you to tell us all this information is wrong? Are you telling us a tank regiment consisting ENTIRELY of M1Abrams are able to take down Russian gunships without Anti-air support? This is an incredible claim indeed, or cavalry military deployments in fire fights post World War 2, please provide evidence.
My interest in SC2 is as a military strategic simulator not a game, the founders of SC franchise have made the closest thing to a real time war game.
In the real world, there is no Blizzard to reduce the effectiveness of flame throwers because of human-alien/sentient rights. No, the Terran Confederation is fighting for its life, as are the Zerg and the Protoss. The whole POINT of war is to win with the least losses. Of course as a game, if one side is powerful, the others must be equally powerful within their own operational doctrines.
Commercially speaking, let's examine, Dark Age of Camelot, released in 2001, its player base reached 250,000 in 2002 before finally falling off to 50,000 in 2008 from competition from Everquest II and World of Warcraft. Why?
If its strong, it IS supposed to be strong, I've been following the beta since day 1 and I can tell you it was a poster here that suggested battle hellions to have the bio tag because it could have ADDITIONAL utility as a opening drop. Which has been added. Now ass clowns are saying AHMERGERD IMBA instead of you know... learning and adapting the NEW game.
If you are a "military history buff" than i am Santa Clause. And people should believe Santa Clause because Santa Clause is not a self acclaimed "military history buff" without any clue.
-The first smg in larger military use was the Bergmann MP18. -Apart from a few American Expeditionary Force units attached to British and Australian units during the First World War the us military did not use lee enfields. Even computer game kids playing COD know that the rifle that won the war was the M1. -Although a few armies still had cavalry at the beginning of WW2, cavalry was obsolete at that point. -In a fight between several M1s and one Hind only armed with its limited traverse 20mm cannon i would bet my money on the tanks. Modern tanks can aim their cannons at helicopters, and the 20mm would have a very limited effect on the tanks. -I don't know of any flamethrowers in use by military right now. Special ammo for rocket lunchers and cannons seems to have taken its place. This has nothing to do with SC2.
On topic: I can not really understand your obsession with not nerfing anything ever. Blizzard introduced the Hellbat quite late and increased some numbers not too long ago. It is very possible that a few numbers might be too high right now. If blizzard was only able to achieve balance through buffs they would have to buff various other parts of any race to balance out one wrong number on the hellbat. Thats just not practical. You need to be able to increase and decrease certain numbers to balance SC2. Small nerfs that bring a unit from totally OP to just about right have to be possible.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
Sorry for this offtopic post but i can no longer tolerate such BS: Please STOP talking about military equipment. You have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Every single thing you said about smgs, lee enfield rifles, cavalry or hinds and abrams was fuckin wrong.
On topic: after watching a few hots games i am not really sure if the hellbat is OP apart from it being a bio unit. But one thing is certain: the timing of medivacs loaded with 4 hellbats in combination with the speedboost is OP. And i say that as a terran player. To fix that i would prefer the introduction of an upgrade. Either for the hellbat transformation, a damage nerf that can be offset by the blue flame upgrade or an upgrade for the speed boost. I don't think hellbat drops are a problem after 10 min. They are just too strong in the early game.
And TL forum readers must believe this poster from Germany because...? I have been a military history buff since 1988, sure I got mixed up the standard issue of US Army in 1945, but who are you to tell us all this information is wrong? Are you telling us a tank regiment consisting ENTIRELY of M1Abrams are able to take down Russian gunships without Anti-air support? This is an incredible claim indeed, or cavalry military deployments in fire fights post World War 2, please provide evidence.
My interest in SC2 is as a military strategic simulator not a game, the founders of SC franchise have made the closest thing to a real time war game.
In the real world, there is no Blizzard to reduce the effectiveness of flame throwers because of human-alien/sentient rights. No, the Terran Confederation is fighting for its life, as are the Zerg and the Protoss. The whole POINT of war is to win with the least losses. Of course as a game, if one side is powerful, the others must be equally powerful within their own operational doctrines.
Commercially speaking, let's examine, Dark Age of Camelot, released in 2001, its player base reached 250,000 in 2002 before finally falling off to 50,000 in 2008 from competition from Everquest II and World of Warcraft. Why?
If its strong, it IS supposed to be strong, I've been following the beta since day 1 and I can tell you it was a poster here that suggested battle hellions to have the bio tag because it could have ADDITIONAL utility as a opening drop. Which has been added. Now ass clowns are saying AHMERGERD IMBA instead of you know... learning and adapting the NEW game.
If you are a "military history buff" than i am Santa Clause. And people should believe Santa Clause because Santa Clause is not a self acclaimed "military history buff" without any clue.
-The first smg in larger military use was the Bergmann MP18. -Apart from a few American Expeditionary Force units attached to British and Australian units during the First World War the us military did not use lee enfields. Even computer game kids playing COD know that the rifle that won the war was the M1. -Although a few armies still had cavalry at the beginning of WW2, cavalry was obsolete at that point. -In a fight between several M1s and one Hind only armed with its limited traverse 20mm cannon i would bet my money on the tanks. Modern tanks can aim their cannons at helicopters, and the 20mm would have a very limited effect on the tanks. -I don't know of any flamethrowers in use by military right now. Special ammo for rocket lunchers and cannons seems to have taken its place. This has nothing to do with SC2.
On topic: I can not really understand your obsession with not nerfing anything ever. Blizzard introduced the Hellbat quite late and increased some numbers not too long ago. It is very possible that a few numbers might be too high right now. If blizzard was only able to achieve balance through buffs they would have to buff various other parts of any race to balance out one wrong number on the hellbat. Thats just not practical. You need to be able to increase and decrease certain numbers to balance SC2. Small nerfs that bring a unit from totally OP to just about right have to be possible.
During the Second World War, standard No. 4 rifles, selected for their accuracy during factory tests, were modified by the addition of a wooden cheek-piece, and telescopic sight mounts designed to accept a No. 32 3.5x telescopic sight.
If you knew your military history as well as you claim, many of the European cities were retaken with key positioning of snipers to effectively control space and Nazi troop and supply movement within the cities without having to resort to bombing. Something that wikipedia did not tell you.
- Re: cavalry, you agree that the mass deployment of infantry armed with rifles and tanks made cavalry obsolete. I thought you said I have no idea what I'm talking about?
- Re: battle tanks vs. gunships, I face palmed so hard... You actually believe a FLYING helicopter traveling at 168mph which can ascend/descend faster than you can turn your head (750m/min) with can be shot down by the main turret of a tank!?
- Re: flame throwers were not even in your claim that everything on I said modern warfare is untrue. Maybe English is not your first language.
- Yes, modern day weapons and military engagements have no practical use of reference for Real Time Strategy game based on science fictional future *sarcasm*
Because as many many others have pointed out earlier, the options for a reasonable response against a hellbat or widow-mine drop already exist and cost-for-cost are equal in numbers. Blizzard has improved all the races scouting options immensely in HotS:
1. Transformed reaper from specialist anti-light harassing unit to general scouting unit with the removal of tech lab requirement and movement boost to 3.75 while nerfing its bonus damage.
2. Overlord speed research reduced to Hatchery, in addition to creep spread vision and vision from lings with highest ingame speed which cost 50 min.
3. MSC that enables early game pressure with option to recall quickly, while turning nexus into a range 13 planetary fortress with 13.8 dps (based on assumed attack speed of a stalker).
Why in the hell are we even discussing military specs right now? Pretty sure this is a thread about HoTS not if 20mm can puncture m1a1 tanks.
No, modern day weapons and military engagements don't have a practical reference for RTS because we aren't using those weapons. We aren't hiding in building. We're not commanding 80k different troops. I can't give my marines snipers/LMG/and m203 loadouts. All of that shit has nothing to do with starcraft, take it somewhere else. Not to mention half the shit being posted about military grade things are wrong.
since when did modern weaponry have anything to do with how a game plays out
also bc's die to marines
apparently bc's dying should cause nukes
I should also note that SC2 is a futuristic game. if you can't tell the game is played in space. so I'm not sure how you'd bother using "modern" military weapons
I am sorry for going offtopic yet another time, i am just too weak to not respond to this troll.
-This "sniper doctrine lesson" has nothing to do with the lee enfield rifle. Pretty much any nation used specially selected standard rifles with scopes. -I guess you were right on cavalry then sorry. -A MBT can shoot down a attack helicopter with the main gun if the helicopter hovers or flies towards the MBT. The Hind has to do exactly that if he wants to attack with his limited traverse 23 mm cannon or his fixed 30 mm cannon. It is debatable if a 20 mm cannon is able to seriously damage a MBT. Normally helicopters use rockets to deal with MBTs.
On topic: In my opinion hellbatdrops in combination with speed boost were overpowered with cargosize 2. Lets wait and see if the patch does its job. I would have preferred to play with other values instead of the cargo size to achieve balance.
On February 16 2013 13:49 Rowrin wrote: The nerf was definitly needed, but the more I look at terran in HoTS the only thing I can see is a race held together with bandaids and duct-tape.
In my opinion this notion can be applied to the game as a whole as it stands right now. They shouldnt have build on WoL in its current state.
I would have preferred to play with other values instead of the cargo size to achieve balance.
That would change far took much. Playing with the Cargo space itself means the unit doesn't recieve a direct nerf to it's general utility. It's the best possible way to balance the drop situation without removing so many other options for so many different styles (medivac speed being changed forces tech lab starport with bio, hellbat damage nerf makes mech so much harder against toss again, etc. etc.)
On February 16 2013 20:07 Infernal_dream wrote: Why in the hell are we even discussing military specs right now? Pretty sure this is a thread about HoTS not if 20mm can puncture m1a1 tanks.
No, modern day weapons and military engagements don't have a practical reference for RTS because we aren't using those weapons. We aren't hiding in building. We're not commanding 80k different troops. I can't give my marines snipers/LMG/and m203 loadouts. All of that shit has nothing to do with starcraft, take it somewhere else. Not to mention half the shit being posted about military grade things are wrong.
You are right. The whole point of the bringing in WWII weapons was to point out TECHNOLOGY AND METHODS IMPROVE BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS DURING WAR.
Nerfs to new units designed to shake up the battlefield are counter intuitive. In other words, the game will not be exciting or new, since the new HotS units/strats perform as well as the same as WoL ones, why bother with the new units?
I just saw Husky's cast of Demuslim HotS series where the ONLY innovation in HotS he used was afterburner... That's it. Enjoy...
How exciting is that, seriously? Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to introduce to my non-gaming friends, AMHERGARD HEART OF THE SWARM, and have them tell me,
"Dude, the game looks exactly the same, when you showed me two years ago.
So what? soldiers still go into these spaceships, get down and shoot the slimy base and then die from alien things eating their face. Rinse and repeat.
Whoever dies the most at some point decides to quit. The end."
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.bulletkeychainsetc.com/images/20mm_Vulcan.jpg)
