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ProfessionalNoob
United States75 Posts
I mean cmon, a hellion can now somehow change into a biological unit which magically now takes up twice the space in a medivac? I think the hellbat needs to be just -Same space in medivacs as it used to be -Not biological -Upgrade to transform researched from armory | ||
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willoc
Canada1530 Posts
On February 15 2013 04:44 MstrJinbo wrote: M1 Garrand was still widely used in the Korean War and remained in use in the 60s. M1 Garrand is the bees knees. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On February 15 2013 03:52 Grumbels wrote: There was a trend of about a month of blue flame hellion use that was unprecedented, Blizzard was reasonably quick in nerfing it. There was an MLG where (SlayerS) Terrans used a BFH/marine drop in TvZ. Top Zergs began learning how to defend against it and TvT was still being played either bio or mech, then it was nerfed. The MLG tournament happened on July 29-31, the PTR was announced sometime around August 25. Less than 1 month before a response. Testing went on about a month before it was applied. | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
On February 15 2013 05:12 aksfjh wrote: There was an MLG where (SlayerS) Terrans used a BFH/marine drop in TvZ. Top Zergs began learning how to defend against it and TvT was still being played either bio or mech, then it was nerfed. The MLG tournament happened on July 29-31, the PTR was announced sometime around August 25. Less than 1 month before a response. Testing went on about a month before it was applied. Not really, every single TvX matchup was BFH spam until it got nerfed, which is why the nerf was so fast One of the biggest reason terran get some stuff nerfed very fast is because it usually completely break one or every matchups | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On February 15 2013 05:12 aksfjh wrote: There was an MLG where (SlayerS) Terrans used a BFH/marine drop in TvZ. Top Zergs began learning how to defend against it and TvT was still being played either bio or mech, then it was nerfed. The MLG tournament happened on July 29-31, the PTR was announced sometime around August 25. Less than 1 month before a response. Testing went on about a month before it was applied. That was such a sweet GSL. And then Blizzard crapped all over SC2. It seems that everytime Terran makes a build that forces roaches, Blizzard brings out the nerf hammer. | ||
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TommyP
United States6231 Posts
thats because essentially nothing of zerg has changed until lair except burrow at hatchery and drones going to the mineral patches automatically. | ||
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ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
On February 15 2013 08:03 TommyP wrote: thats because essentially nothing of zerg has changed until lair except burrow at hatchery and drones going to the mineral patches automatically. Nothing for zerg changed *except* these new threats that slow down Zerg economy. To expect to use the exact same builds as before when there are new early game threats is a little ridiculous. What's the point of even playing the expansion then? If we keep nerfing early game play, we'll end up in the same situation where we are in Wings -- where standard play is 2-3 bases before even really engaging anyone. Great for highlight reels and "zomg eSports" but further stagnates play, especially if they're going to keep pounding the asymmetric design angle. Early game plays should be repellable if you're ready (scouted or blind countered), but should do damage if you're not. "Standard play" should not be safe against all possible early game attacks. The game shouldn't be nerfed to the point where if you're caught off-guard by an early play, you still end up even or only slightly behind. Otherwise, we should just start games with 2 saturated bases and play from there, skip the first 5 minutes or so of boring crap. | ||
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LingBlingBling
United States353 Posts
Won't balance a thing imo. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 15 2013 08:28 LingBlingBling wrote: This is not even a change, hellbats in general are to strong. So now people will have to press a button before attacking?? All people need to do is drop 4 hellions at a location in the players base where they can't been seen and just transform them to 4 hellbats. I don't Know the thought process behind this when david kim/DB made this change. Won't balance a thing imo. You realise that the hellion takes 5 seconds to transform right? If you don't have enough units to kill atleast 3 if not all of them in 5 seconds you're playing greedy and deserve to take damage from hurass. Also you can run your workers away in that time too. | ||
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Donger
United States147 Posts
On February 15 2013 08:28 LingBlingBling wrote: This is not even a change, hellbats in general are to strong. So now people will have to press a button before attacking?? All people need to do is drop 4 hellions at a location in the players base where they can't been seen and just transform them to 4 hellbats. I don't Know the thought process behind this when david kim/DB made this change. Won't balance a thing imo. I haven't played a Zerg that did not have full vision of their base by the 7:30 mark. | ||
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snively
United States1159 Posts
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SolarJto
United States260 Posts
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LingBlingBling
United States353 Posts
On February 15 2013 08:33 Qikz wrote: You realise that the hellion takes 5 seconds to transform right? If you don't have enough units to kill atleast 3 if not all of them in 5 seconds you're playing greedy and deserve to take damage from hurass. Also you can run your workers away in that time too. It takes a sec less then viking going air to ground. It's not that slow, and hell bat drops can hit sooner then the 7 30 mark off 1 base..... And the drop it's self was not the issue, The issue was the hellbat is to strong for the cost, even on the recent state of the game, all 3 eg players agreed this change is stupid/useless does nothing to solve the problem. and 2 bats with 2 helbats with medivac heal is still stupid strong. Running workers away from hellbats does nothing, If you play at a lvl top master/gm on Beta you would understand even with a perfect worker split, the hellbats will trade very well vs anything u throw at it, even roaches. for only the small cost of min and a fast making armory..... | ||
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sMiViRUS
United States2 Posts
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abei1234
United States89 Posts
Blizzard agreed that hellbat DROPS were too strong, because the combination of hellbats with medivacs is too powerful, so they adjusted the cargo space from 2 to 4. Reasons for it being too strong: 1) Biological Tag allows them to be healed by medivacs. 2) They do 30 damage to light units. 3) They do conical splash damage. 4) They cost only 100 minerals. 5) Teching to 1/1/1 with Armory is not going to ruin the rest of your build. 6) Anything else I may have left out. Since this #14 Patch (cargo space), resourceful terrans can ideally work around this limitation simply by making a 2nd medivac out of a reactor to compensate for the increased cargo. While this "Cargo Space" tag modified a tag on the hellbat unit, what this change actually affects is the MEDIVAC!!! (mind-blown!). Taking a step back, we can see that the MEDIVAC (not the hellbat) is the unit of concern here. I would like to see 2 polls created on this subject. First poll being: A) Hellbat drops were perfect, even before this patch. B) Due to this patch, everything has been fixed. C) This patch helps, but more changes are needed. D) This patch changes nothing. Second poll being: If you responded C or D - what ELSE would you like to see done ? A) Hellbats unable to be healed by medivac - Bio tag removed. (Beta Balance Patch #3 reversed) B) Hellion into Hellbat transformation researched at the Armory. (Beta Balance Patch #7 reversed) C) Hellbats damage reduced from 18 + 12 to light to its previously 10 + 9 to light. (Beta Balance Patch #11 reversed) D) Hellbats cost increased from mineral only to X amount of gas cost (never tested before) E) Medivac speed boost would require using energy (never tested before) F) Medivac speed boost researched at Starport Techlab (never tested before) G) Medivacs unable to drop while speed boosting (never tested before) H) Medivac speed boost completely removed from game (Beta Balance Patch #8 reversed) Now that I have enlightened you, please lets help get the following information back to blizzard: - This patch has taken a step in the right direction but did not hit the mark and left many people questioning their logic. - The medivac is the unit that needed to be modified due to its overwhelmingly strong synergy with the hellbat - Consider my options above on changes to the medivac that say (never tested before) since nearly everything about the hellbat has already been tried in previous patches. My best recommendation for Blizzard is to implement all 3 options E, F & G. E) Medivac speed boost would require using energy F) Medivac speed boost researched at Starport Techlab G) Medivacs unable to drop while speed boosting But I will settle for any one of the three. Please, your responses to my comment will be appreciated as I will check back here since this is a subject close to my heart. TL;DR: The medivac is the unit that needs a change, due to the synergy it has with the hellbat, not the hellbat itself. | ||
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ETisME
12265 Posts
On February 15 2013 06:06 GinDo wrote: That was such a sweet GSL. And then Blizzard crapped all over SC2. It seems that everytime Terran makes a build that forces roaches, Blizzard brings out the nerf hammer. that gsl was also full of all ins. I think DRG did a roach baneling 'timing attack' almost in all games. That gsl was only good because MMA was nice enough not to use ghosts so that zerg T3 actually had a chance. | ||
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OceanFlex
United States3 Posts
On February 15 2013 14:11 abei1234 wrote: - This patch has taken a step in the right direction but did not hit the mark and left many people questioning their logic. - The medivac is the unit that needed to be modified due to its overwhelmingly strong synergy with the hellbat - Consider my options above on changes to the medivac that say (never tested before) since nearly everything about the hellbat has already been tried in previous patches. E) Medivac speed boost would require using energy F) Medivac speed boost researched at Starport Techlab G) Medivacs unable to drop while speed boosting I think that F is a step too far. E would be ok, so long as it is a minor amount of energy (<25, but the cool-down would need to be lowered if the energy cost is anything above 10). G makes perfect sense. It is a very "small" change and makes PERFECT sense on the lore side. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 15 2013 06:06 GinDo wrote: It seems that everytime Terran makes a build that forces roaches, Blizzard brings out the nerf hammer. Very illogical statement. HotS in general favors Roach openers in ZvT... On February 15 2013 14:44 OceanFlex wrote: I think that F is a step too far. E would be ok, so long as it is a minor amount of energy (<25, but the cool-down would need to be lowered if the energy cost is anything above 10). G makes perfect sense. It is a very "small" change and makes PERFECT sense on the lore side. But that would completely kill hellbat/medivac micro. That type of play is healthy for the game, it's good that units can make up for each others weaknesses if microed correctly. It just needs to be balanced so that it comes at a timing that's so random to stop. Which is why the nerf they did is perfect. Common sense... if the problem is only with hellbat/medivacs you shouldn't nerf Medivacs in either of the ways listed, because that would hurt medivac play with other units too much. I'm a Zerg player, but I think it's completely messed up that people want to completely remove the Medivac/Hellbat synergy. Don't completely remove it, just balance it. And honestly, right now it seems to be in a good place. It's not super random to defend against and comes at the same time as the early aggression of the other races (slightly after 7mins for 4 hellbats). | ||
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Don.681
Philippines189 Posts
On February 15 2013 14:11 abei1234 wrote: This entire thread is a response to "Hellbat DROPS". Nobody is complaining about hellbats doing sick damage when elsewhere on the battlefield (and yes, they do do sick damage). Blizzard agreed that hellbat DROPS were too strong, because the combination of hellbats with medivacs is too powerful, so they adjusted the cargo space from 2 to 4. Reasons for it being too strong: 1) Biological Tag allows them to be healed by medivacs. 2) They do 30 damage to light units. 3) They do conical splash damage. 4) They cost only 100 minerals. 5) Teching to 1/1/1 with Armory is not going to ruin the rest of your build. 6) Anything else I may have left out. Since this #14 Patch (cargo space), resourceful terrans can ideally work around this limitation simply by making a 2nd medivac out of a reactor to compensate for the increased cargo. While this "Cargo Space" tag modified a tag on the hellbat unit, what this change actually affects is the MEDIVAC!!! (mind-blown!). Taking a step back, we can see that the MEDIVAC (not the hellbat) is the unit of concern here. I would like to see 2 polls created on this subject. First poll being: A) Hellbat drops were perfect, even before this patch. B) Due to this patch, everything has been fixed. C) This patch helps, but more changes are needed. D) This patch changes nothing. Second poll being: If you responded C or D - what ELSE would you like to see done ? A) Hellbats unable to be healed by medivac - Bio tag removed. (Beta Balance Patch #3 reversed) B) Hellion into Hellbat transformation researched at the Armory. (Beta Balance Patch #7 reversed) C) Hellbats damage reduced from 18 + 12 to light to its previously 10 + 9 to light. (Beta Balance Patch #11 reversed) D) Hellbats cost increased from mineral only to X amount of gas cost (never tested before) E) Medivac speed boost would require using energy (never tested before) F) Medivac speed boost researched at Starport Techlab (never tested before) G) Medivacs unable to drop while speed boosting (never tested before) H) Medivac speed boost completely removed from game (Beta Balance Patch #8 reversed) Now that I have enlightened you, please lets help get the following information back to blizzard: - This patch has taken a step in the right direction but did not hit the mark and left many people questioning their logic. - The medivac is the unit that needed to be modified due to its overwhelmingly strong synergy with the hellbat - Consider my options above on changes to the medivac that say (never tested before) since nearly everything about the hellbat has already been tried in previous patches. My best recommendation for Blizzard is to implement all 3 options E, F & G. E) Medivac speed boost would require using energy F) Medivac speed boost researched at Starport Techlab G) Medivacs unable to drop while speed boosting But I will settle for any one of the three. Please, your responses to my comment will be appreciated as I will check back here since this is a subject close to my heart. TL;DR: The medivac is the unit that needs a change, due to the synergy it has with the hellbat, not the hellbat itself. Dude, you should post this as a separate thread as this will be ignored in this thread when it's no longer in the latest page. In fact, you should make a thread like this for every problem currently being faced on a per-unit basis. I like how you stated what has been tried and what has never been tried before. Start a new thread, this is heaps better than the OP of this thread. Its like: "Okay Blizzard just changed the Hellbat, go at it." So now we got people going at it with no direction. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 15 2013 16:37 Don.681 wrote: Dude, you should post this as a separate thread as this will be ignored in this thread when it's no longer in the latest page. In fact, you should make a thread like this for every problem currently being faced on a per-unit basis. I like how you stated what has been tried and what has never been tried before. Start a new thread, this is heaps better than the OP of this thread. Its like: "Okay Blizzard just changed the Hellbat, go at it." So now we got people going at it with no direction. They already nerfed the synergy between the two... Apparently people want to completely take the synergy and remove the usefulness of Hellbats completely. Makes me glad I don't play Terran. | ||
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