On February 15 2013 14:11 abei1234 wrote: This entire thread is a response to "Hellbat DROPS". Nobody is complaining about hellbats doing sick damage when elsewhere on the battlefield (and yes, they do do sick damage).
Im sorry but if you read the whole thread there is a lot of people who stiil complains about hellbat damage, and much more people complaining about the biological tag.
I thnik that the best way to balance the hellbats drops was the research path: bring back the blue flame to helbats and make the transformation a research. So intead having the first drop at 7 -7:30 you push back the drops to mid-late game where the enemy player should have enougt to defend the drop.
But noooo, enable the panic mode and create a dumb nerf like the crago space. Its ugly but it works.
On February 15 2013 14:11 abei1234 wrote: This entire thread is a response to "Hellbat DROPS". Nobody is complaining about hellbats doing sick damage when elsewhere on the battlefield (and yes, they do do sick damage).
Im sorry but if you read the whole thread there is a lot of people who stiil complains about hellbat damage, and much more people complaining about the biological tag.
I thnik that the best way to balance the hellbats drops was the research path: bring back the blue flame to helbats and make the transformation a research. So intead having the first drop at 7 -7:30 you push back the drops to mid-late game where the enemy player should have enougt to defend the drop.
But noooo, enable the panic mode and create a dumb nerf like the crago space. Its ugly but it works.
The first drops reached the enemy base at 6:30 pre-patch.
Now they get there about 7:10 if you do the same with 2 medivacs.
All the other races can do early game aggression at ~7 minutes as well. This drop matches up perfectly. There's no reason you shouldn't have enough to defend unless you didn't scout the enemy.
So your solution would be to remove the harass completely? Why do people always insist on overdoing nerfs? I just want Terrans to be possibly to defend against without being random. I don't want them to have useless units or remove harass options...
The first drops reached the enemy base at 6:30 pre-patch.
Now they get there about 7:10 if you do the same with 2 medivacs.
All the other races can do early game aggression at ~7 minutes as well. This drop matches up perfectly. There's no reason you shouldn't have enough to defend unless you didn't scout the enemy.
So your solution would be to remove the harass completely? Why do people always insist on overdoing nerfs? I just want Terrans to be possibly to defend against without being random. I don't want them to have useless units or remove harass options...
No, I dont want to remove the harass, just delay it a little bit to give more options to the defender player with a more... "logical" solution than the cargo space (IMO).
this is bullshit, weird specialized nerf because they made a fkn 100min 2supply unit far too beastly. a hellbat taking as much space as a tank? yeah well it makes sense, they're about equal. just that the tank costs 150/125/3, not 100/0/2 and doesn't come off reactors...
the entire biotag is nonsense, couldn't they remove that? add mech repair, or only hellbat repair to the caduceus maybe? really hating on the hellbattlehound right now
On February 15 2013 17:43 CYFAWS wrote: this is bullshit, weird specialized nerf because they made a fkn 100min 2supply unit far too beastly. a hellbat taking as much space as a tank? yeah well it makes sense, they're about equal. just that the tank costs 150/125/3, not 100/0/2 and doesn't come off reactors...
the entire biotag is nonsense, couldn't they remove that? add mech repair, or only hellbat repair to the caduceus maybe? really hating on the hellbattlehound right now
there's nothing weird or specialised about it. Tanks are 3 supply and take 4 space. Thors take all 8 space. Lings take 1 but are half a supply. Colossus is 6 supply but takes 8 space. They adjust slot spaced per unit as part of their standard balance. This is no different. The hellbat and hellion are 2 different units. You can carry ground mode Vikings in a medivac too, so there is even presidence for each form of a unit being treated as a seperate unit.
On February 15 2013 17:43 CYFAWS wrote: this is bullshit, weird specialized nerf because they made a fkn 100min 2supply unit far too beastly. a hellbat taking as much space as a tank? yeah well it makes sense, they're about equal. just that the tank costs 150/125/3, not 100/0/2 and doesn't come off reactors...
the entire biotag is nonsense, couldn't they remove that? add mech repair, or only hellbat repair to the caduceus maybe? really hating on the hellbattlehound right now
there's nothing weird or specialised about it. Tanks are 3 supply and take 4 space. Thors take all 8 space. Lings take 1 but are half a supply. Colossus is 6 supply but takes 8 space. They adjust slot spaced per unit as part of their standard balance. This is no different. The hellbat and hellion are 2 different units. You can carry ground mode Vikings in a medivac too, so there is even presidence for each form of a unit being treated as a seperate unit.
No, that's just rounding. The interface only allows 1, 2, 4, 8. Thors are six supply, rounded to eight. Lings are half a supply, rounded to one. Tanks are three supply, rounded to four. Perfectly consistent.
On February 15 2013 17:43 CYFAWS wrote: this is bullshit, weird specialized nerf because they made a fkn 100min 2supply unit far too beastly. a hellbat taking as much space as a tank? yeah well it makes sense, they're about equal. just that the tank costs 150/125/3, not 100/0/2 and doesn't come off reactors...
the entire biotag is nonsense, couldn't they remove that? add mech repair, or only hellbat repair to the caduceus maybe? really hating on the hellbattlehound right now
there's nothing weird or specialised about it. Tanks are 3 supply and take 4 space. Thors take all 8 space. Lings take 1 but are half a supply. Colossus is 6 supply but takes 8 space. They adjust slot spaced per unit as part of their standard balance. This is no different. The hellbat and hellion are 2 different units. You can carry ground mode Vikings in a medivac too, so there is even presidence for each form of a unit being treated as a seperate unit.
No, that's just rounding. The interface only allows 1, 2, 4, 8. Thors are six supply, rounded to eight. Lings are half a supply, rounded to one. Tanks are three supply, rounded to four. Perfectly consistent.
You are conveniently omitting banelings, which are 0.5 supply, but have cargo space 2. So there is a precedent in WoL. Otherwise I agree, cargo space is based on rounding the supply to 1, 2, 4 or 8.
World War 2 Cavalry While most armies still maintained cavalry units at the outbreak of World War II in 1939, significant mounted action was largely restricted to the Polish, Balkan and Soviet campaigns.
In any case, you are missing the forest for the trees.
The point is in warfare, new technology will ALWAYS appear or reappear the longer the conflict continues. These nerfs are the cancer killing SC2.
T have been doing marine drops since '09, FOUR YEARS OF IT. I'm getting bored, spectators are getting bored and pros are getting bored. How else can DOTA and other arena games EXPLODE in the last eighteen months, which coincided with the last few major nerfs! Nydus play, banshee raids, Hydra drops, etc etc
All this because Blizzard wants to keeps its core fan base.
Something the Chinese and Japanese Emperors did to OUTLAW (nerf) firearms to make things "fair" for the other weapons of war, swords, cavalry, etc And it bit them in the backside because they refused to change. The Chinese were conquered by their own invention, but carried by their invaders.
Blizzard is king of the RTS hill for now, but for how long I wonder as they continue to nerf any innovation just because their core base could not or refuse to adapt to any innovation.
On February 15 2013 17:43 CYFAWS wrote: this is bullshit, weird specialized nerf because they made a fkn 100min 2supply unit far too beastly. a hellbat taking as much space as a tank? yeah well it makes sense, they're about equal. just that the tank costs 150/125/3, not 100/0/2 and doesn't come off reactors...
the entire biotag is nonsense, couldn't they remove that? add mech repair, or only hellbat repair to the caduceus maybe? really hating on the hellbattlehound right now
there's nothing weird or specialised about it. Tanks are 3 supply and take 4 space. Thors take all 8 space. Lings take 1 but are half a supply. Colossus is 6 supply but takes 8 space. They adjust slot spaced per unit as part of their standard balance. This is no different. The hellbat and hellion are 2 different units. You can carry ground mode Vikings in a medivac too, so there is even presidence for each form of a unit being treated as a seperate unit.
No, that's just rounding. The interface only allows 1, 2, 4, 8. Thors are six supply, rounded to eight. Lings are half a supply, rounded to one. Tanks are three supply, rounded to four. Perfectly consistent.
You are conveniently omitting banelings, which are 0.5 supply, but have cargo space 2. So there is a precedent in WoL. Otherwise I agree, cargo space is based on rounding the supply to 1, 2, 4 or 8.
I'm not conveniently omitting banelings. The person I quoted didn't mention them. I understand that banelings are an exception.
On February 15 2013 17:43 CYFAWS wrote: this is bullshit, weird specialized nerf because they made a fkn 100min 2supply unit far too beastly. a hellbat taking as much space as a tank? yeah well it makes sense, they're about equal. just that the tank costs 150/125/3, not 100/0/2 and doesn't come off reactors...
the entire biotag is nonsense, couldn't they remove that? add mech repair, or only hellbat repair to the caduceus maybe? really hating on the hellbattlehound right now
there's nothing weird or specialised about it. Tanks are 3 supply and take 4 space. Thors take all 8 space. Lings take 1 but are half a supply. Colossus is 6 supply but takes 8 space. They adjust slot spaced per unit as part of their standard balance. This is no different. The hellbat and hellion are 2 different units. You can carry ground mode Vikings in a medivac too, so there is even presidence for each form of a unit being treated as a seperate unit.
No, that's just rounding. The interface only allows 1, 2, 4, 8. Thors are six supply, rounded to eight. Lings are half a supply, rounded to one. Tanks are three supply, rounded to four. Perfectly consistent.
You are conveniently omitting banelings, which are 0.5 supply, but have cargo space 2. So there is a precedent in WoL. Otherwise I agree, cargo space is based on rounding the supply to 1, 2, 4 or 8.
I'm not conveniently omitting banelings. The person I quoted didn't mention them. I understand that banelings are an exception.
I don't think there's ever been a correlation between a unit's supply value and the amount of space they take up in a cargo ship, altho' there has been some correlation between a unit's model size and it's supply it's not really the same thing.
I mean look at BW, Siege Tanks were 2 Supply and took up 4 spaces in a Dropship if I remember correctly.
Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
Edit: Let's not forget a non-rush timing for MSC is 4 min latest, guaranting at least 2 min worth of additional MP gathered for photon overcharge? How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min besides probes?
Why not make unloading these hellbats from medivac slower instead? I believe it takes about half an hour before a Thor starts shooting from the moment it is unloaded from a medivac, while a marine starts pew-pew:ing right away. So it seems to be a thing that can be tweaked. A few more seconds to respond should make a huge difference. Hurts any load/unload micro the terran could potentially do though.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
The only time colossi are trash is when the terran has 20 vikings in the air. Otherwise they are always the best damage dealers of the protoss army.
A mix of immortals and colossi is always the scariest protoss ground army as mech.
On February 15 2013 23:12 Erik.TheRed wrote: Honestly I do think it's kind of bullshit that the hellbats don't change their armor type to armored, since stalkers + immortals get no bonus damage vs something that beefy. The only protoss unit that can do bonus damage to them are phoenix and I'm not sure phoenix are going to work very well against someone who goes hellbat+ thor+ mine.
That would totally erase ling/bane play from ZvT.
Why are hellbats suddenly such a huge problem for protoss players anyway? They are so freaking slow, if a protoss stutter steps with their army a few times at the start of the fight I find most of my hellbats have already evaporated. Especially if there are colossi.
Exactly. It's obvious he can't even do a decent FF wall off. The hellbat has a range of 2 vs. stalker's range of 6. Why else would he have a problem fending off at 7:30 if his MSC has been out for some time, actively scouting?
How can he have NOTHING inside the base at 7th min?
Well that's one hell of an assumption about me.
FYI I'm not talking about hellbat rushes, just how effective they are in a mid-lategame army when mixed with other mech units like thors and mines. I've played and watched a ton of games where protoss has a higher supply of archon + immortal + zealot vs mech and even engages from a concave but the hellbats just don't die (zealots can't get close enough to do dmg, and they are getting healed from medivacs). And IMO building colossus is trash vs someone with that many factories since you need to be building immortals or you'll die to the thors + tanks.
Short answer: Wrong composition, engagement angle assumed to be head on clash with appropriate micro, aka deathball clash.
Long answer: Assuming above same engagement angle, having zealots engage hellbats is about as smart as commanding M1 Abrams battle tank regiment to take on a single fully armed Hind-24 helicopter gunship. Sure each M1 Abrams is armed with a GPMG 7.62mm rounds, but compared to the mobility and 20mm mini-gun onboard the Hind, it is a suicide mission. And perfectly underscoring the P's lack of understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of his units vs their units.
How well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both in a large abandoned town? But how well do you think Bruce Lee would fare against Russia's top sniper both trapped in an elevator? Suddenly the odds have swung hugely in Bruce Lee's favor.
Likewise, the hellbat has TRANSFORMED the dynamic for Terran mech play. What's the Protoss to do? Not my problem, I gain no benefit for doing the work of BO creation and testing, I am not employed as a e-Sports strategic consultant nor am I affiliated with any eSports organisation.
BUT when you threaten the evolution of the science fictional battlefield of the Koprulu Sector, killing new synergies and new dynamics by demanding nerfs just because you watched some esports pro get his ass repeatedly creamed using four year old build/unit composition, you become EVERYONE'S PROBLEM.
You become a threat to the long term viability of the Strategy eSports sector. Because a nerfed game is a dead game. Only a matter of time, just look at Age of Camelot.
In other words, if you like your current level of play skill/knowledge/ability and love existing WoL metagame, HATE the fact that old timings/compositions/build orders do not work as well, HATE the fact you need to lose and tweak new builds and compositions, HATE the new units with a passion, do us all a favor, cancel your pre-order and return your beta key. Join us when you're ready.
EPT
