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Russian Federation81 Posts
On February 12 2013 20:19 doggy wrote:
While i generally like the idea of more cargo space for hellbats. Am i the only one who has concerns that such spezific buffs and nerfs (also like +15dmg for spores to bio) make the game even more complicated for new players and spectators?
I see why they do that, it makes balancing much more easy. But it seems like a double-edged sword to me
I don't understand why people keep bringing this up. I mean, does it matter how many units load into a medivac for a new player? Seriously, anyone who is not familiar with the game surely won't care. All that matters is that medivac can carry units. They load up into it, it flies them away and unloads. It doesn't matter if it's 2, 4 or 6. It's not complicated. Neither it is for lower league players/spectators. This is not rocket science, it's a simple knowledge of again a simple fact that you can only load 2 hellbats into 1 medivac. Just the same as the fact that roach only attacks ground.
Exactly the same thing can be said about spores. It absolutely does not affect the spectating experience if spores kill mutalisks x2 faster or slower. It's not like you can see both mutalisks and medivacs being killed by a spore in a single pro game where you might have wondered why does the mutalisk die to it x2 faster. And even if you watched some 2v2 tournament (do they even exist), would you really be able to notice such a small fact given there's a heavy amount of each flying unit on the filed? No. You're just looking for reasons to bash blizzard for anything they do no matter if it's good or bad.
These changes are needed. And I am personally happy with both spore and hellbat (if they actually decide to make it happen) changes. WIth this they might just have a quite enjoyable game at release.
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I dont see any real hard counter to Hellbats somehow in PvT mech play.
Drop scenario: Even if you spot the medivac in time, you have very very little time to react.
large numbers of Zelots just dissapear after the first 2 shot of 4 Hellbats
even moderate Numbers of Stalkers can't kill hellbats fast enough.
Big Battles:
Tank Thor battlehals
Zelots just dissapear as they charge in, no matter how many you got (so I stopped builing them when I see more then 4 hellbats on the field)
Stalkers are useless against tanks anyway.
So you have to stay on immortale, archon which are capable to deal with the army atm.
The big problem will be, when terrans somewhen realise what ghosts are capable against this composition. I see dark times coming when the meta games switches to a few ghosts + Hellbats + Tanks + Thor. I don't see any counter to this. Even voidsrays are to fragil to engage this army.
anybody can follow my thoughts?
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Drops is such a good tool to discriminate people with mediocre multitask, both for the offender and defender.
Plus it favors aggression...
Sure it is very strong, but vulture with mines were also extremly strong, arguably stronger, yet Blizzard managed to balance the game around that.
Besides, all this reminds me too well of the reaper issues in beta.
Reaper into marauder was called a free-win strat for several months, yet when Blizzard decided to implement the nerf patch, its win ratio wasn't far higher than 50%.
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On February 12 2013 20:44 Atthasit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 20:19 doggy wrote:
While i generally like the idea of more cargo space for hellbats. Am i the only one who has concerns that such spezific buffs and nerfs (also like +15dmg for spores to bio) make the game even more complicated for new players and spectators?
I see why they do that, it makes balancing much more easy. But it seems like a double-edged sword to me I don't understand why people keep bringing this up. I mean, does it matter how many units load into a medivac for a new player? Seriously, anyone who is not familiar with the game surely won't care. All that matters is that medivac can carry units. They load up into it, it flies them away and unloads. It doesn't matter if it's 2, 4 or 6. It's not complicated. Neither it is for lower league players/spectators. This is not rocket science, it's a simple knowledge of again a simple fact that you can only load 2 hellbats into 1 medivac. Just the same as the fact that roach only attacks ground. Exactly the same thing can be said about spores. It absolutely does not affect the spectating experience if spores kill mutalisks x2 faster or slower. It's not like you can see both mutalisks and medivacs being killed by a spore in a single pro game where you might have wondered why does the mutalisk die to it x2 faster. And even if you watched some 2v2 tournament (do they even exist), would you really be able to notice such a small fact given there's a heavy amount of each flying unit on the filed? No. You're just looking for reasons to bash blizzard for anything they do no matter if it's good or bad. These changes are needed. And I am personally happy with both spore and hellbat (if they actually decide to make it happen) changes. WIth this they might just have a quite enjoyable game at release.
I agree to you that this change is needed. It just seems to me like blizzard gave up on balancing the game without spezific changes like that. The game is already so complicated that a lot of people just don't wanna watch it because they need a ton of time until they actually understand what theyre seeing. By adding such spezific changes this impact on non-sc2 players will just get bigger. Just by watching the last weeks we have (i add the cargo change to this) already 3 of such changes. If blizzard continues to do that this will become more of an issue.
I would agree if all possibilities to apply balance with "regular" changes fail, but we're in a beta. Its not like anything is broke and all X MLGs were won by strategy Y. If needbe i agree to add such balance changes, i just feel like its wrong to already start doing that in a beta.
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This isn't a good solution imo. Just seems like blizzard are trying to dodge the real issue here... please just make it so they aren't healed by medivacs<-- why are blizzard so against this..
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On February 12 2013 21:43 Rorra wrote:
This isn't a good solution imo. Just seems like blizzard are trying to dodge the real issue here... please just make it so they aren't healed by medivacs<-- why are blizzard so against this..
No kidding. I think you need to choose either they get repaired, OR healed by the medivacs. One guy sent hellbats w/scv drop and i could not kill them at all.
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This is what I believe needs to be done and I don’t know why they are being so slow about it. Hellbat needs to be its own unit. It’s cool to have it transform from a hellion ect but it’s a 100 mineral units and there are limitation set on that.
I would put the hellion in the category with marines,zelots and lings and we all know all these units with upgrades as speed,charge,stim,combat shield, adrenal glans makes them more effective but they can still fight other mineral units without being one sided. It really doesn’t make sense having a mineral unit that hard counters every other mineral unit in the game and have aoe attack for 100 minerals with the only drawback of being slow.
Blizzard already removed so the blue flame upgrade so it doesn’t affect the hellion and also made it so u can build them directly in the factory. Its attack and hp is not even the same as the hellion itself. In every way possible it’s a different unit but they still refuse to separate it from the hellion and in that sense they can’t change the cost for it since that would nerf the hellion.
Some people might say that the hellion transformation falls in the line of the mech units where we have Vikings, siege tank and thors that can switch between different mods. One thing to keep in mind is all of the other mech units are also gas based and not only mineral as the hellion. Also the transformation changes doesn’t completely change the unit. The siege tank may get splash when in siege mode but with the offset of being immobile and shooting slower. The siege tank don’t get a hp boost on its life and then a extra ability on top of that when being in siege mode and it even cost more minerals and gas then a battle hellion. Now look at the hellion that only is a mineral unit on what I get from its transformation ability.
My opinion what needs to happen is to make it own unit that can be build after armory and add a slight gas cost on it or a increase in mineral cost. As long as its connected to the hellion it can’t be too strong . After that is done I rather se a another transformation ability on the battle hellion and since the mineral cost and gas cost can be tweaked now when it’s not connected to the hellion we have less limitation on it. For instance it could transform to a ground unit that is immobile with single target air unit (missle turret) or maybe even a sc1 goliath. You could add a haywire missile ability or maybe transform it to warhound like unit. I would like to se a mode thet supports bio and that could be as the battle hellion in its current form and a mode that supports mech.There are allot of possibilities I just wish they could do this change and play around with what to do before beta ends
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On February 12 2013 21:32 GaliX wrote:
I dont see any real hard counter to Hellbats somehow in PvT mech play.
Drop scenario: Even if you spot the medivac in time, you have very very little time to react.
large numbers of Zelots just dissapear after the first 2 shot of 4 Hellbats
even moderate Numbers of Stalkers can't kill hellbats fast enough.
Big Battles:
Tank Thor battlehals
Zelots just dissapear as they charge in, no matter how many you got (so I stopped builing them when I see more then 4 hellbats on the field)
Stalkers are useless against tanks anyway.
So you have to stay on immortale, archon which are capable to deal with the army atm.
The big problem will be, when terrans somewhen realise what ghosts are capable against this composition. I see dark times coming when the meta games switches to a few ghosts + Hellbats + Tanks + Thor. I don't see any counter to this. Even voidsrays are to fragil to engage this army.
anybody can follow my thoughts?
So you are worried about a composition that will directly die to any kind of air play by toss? Not to mention there is still very little a mech player can do against blink stalkers, besides 3 base turtling. But the moment he moves out blink stalkers can ruin his day.
And on the defense the toss has photon overcharge, that deals pretty well with drops.
I don't understand why people keep bringing this up. I mean, does it matter how many units load into a medivac for a new player? Seriously, anyone who is not familiar with the game surely won't care. All that matters is that medivac can carry units.
Yes it matters, just like spore buff matters alot. This is like saying it is fine if siege tanks get bonus damage vs armored against terran, vs light against zerg, and only fire at air target vs toss, because they fire anyway so someone who is unfamiliar with the game surely wont care.
All those random differences make it needlessly harder to figure out.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On February 12 2013 22:13 Sissors wrote:
And on the defense the toss has photon overcharge, that deals pretty well with drops.
Hellbats will kill 497 probes before photon overcharge does anything. Just sayin'. The problem Protoss had in WoL with hellions (early game), and in HotS with hellbats, is DPSing them down before they do their damage. A stalker takes 14 shots (20 seconds) to kill a hellbat. And now the medivacs can't even be intercepted with good positioning because of the speedboost.
Really I think Blizz's solution is quite ok. The problem was the synergy between hellbats and medivacs, so they take an approach to dealing with the problem that doesn't involve nerfing one unit or the other, just their special synergy. Kinda neat actually.
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On February 12 2013 21:32 GaliX wrote:
I dont see any real hard counter to Hellbats somehow in PvT mech play.
Drop scenario: Even if you spot the medivac in time, you have very very little time to react.
large numbers of Zelots just dissapear after the first 2 shot of 4 Hellbats
even moderate Numbers of Stalkers can't kill hellbats fast enough.
Big Battles:
Tank Thor battlehals
Zelots just dissapear as they charge in, no matter how many you got (so I stopped builing them when I see more then 4 hellbats on the field)
Stalkers are useless against tanks anyway.
So you have to stay on immortale, archon which are capable to deal with the army atm.
The big problem will be, when terrans somewhen realise what ghosts are capable against this composition. I see dark times coming when the meta games switches to a few ghosts + Hellbats + Tanks + Thor. I don't see any counter to this. Even voidsrays are to fragil to engage this army.
anybody can follow my thoughts?
Dealing with a meching player? Expand aggressively ala Protoss brood war and transition into Sky protoss. I heard void rays do exceptionally well against tank/hellbat/thor and a couple of tempests annihilate thors without ever receiving any damage. Is this your idea of a 'no solution'? You should also see how VR overcharge, used in conjunction with timewarp decimate an entire viking fleet with ease which allows you free reign of the entire ground army. Maybe you should explore more protoss before complaining about the lack of good solutions protoss can field against mech. Last i checked, top tier terrans still have difficulty trading mech against robo based armies.
Edit: Storms are also exceptional in fighting hellbats, they cannot split effectively and are naturally clumped when they attack.
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On February 12 2013 22:34 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 22:13 Sissors wrote:
And on the defense the toss has photon overcharge, that deals pretty well with drops.
Hellbats will kill 497 probes before photon overcharge does anything. Just sayin'. The problem Protoss had in WoL with hellions (early game), and in HotS with hellbats, is DPSing them down before they do their damage. A stalker takes 14 shots (20 seconds) to kill a hellbat. And now the medivacs can't even be intercepted with good positioning because of the speedboost. Really I think Blizz's solution is quite ok. The problem was the synergy between hellbats and medivacs, so they take an approach to dealing with the problem that doesn't involve nerfing one unit or the other, just their special synergy. Kinda neat actually.
Especially when you got blink stalkers should intercept them fine, even without blink I wouldnt really want to fly over a group of stalkers. But if you do photon overcharge you can just kill the medivac, then the hellbats are just sitting ducks. Very slow sitting ducks. The remaining time of the photon overcharge will also kill the hellbats, yes it costs some mining time, the terran also invested into it (especially if we are talking about 1-1-1).
Anyway I am not arguiing that it isnt a effective solution, just that I dont even consider it close to being a neat solution. It is a very ugly solution. It is like saying marines are too good against roaches, so they get -2 damage vs roaches. Also an effective solution, but I also really wouldnt call that a neat solution.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On February 12 2013 22:40 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 22:34 marvellosity wrote:On February 12 2013 22:13 Sissors wrote:
And on the defense the toss has photon overcharge, that deals pretty well with drops.
Hellbats will kill 497 probes before photon overcharge does anything. Just sayin'. The problem Protoss had in WoL with hellions (early game), and in HotS with hellbats, is DPSing them down before they do their damage. A stalker takes 14 shots (20 seconds) to kill a hellbat. And now the medivacs can't even be intercepted with good positioning because of the speedboost. Really I think Blizz's solution is quite ok. The problem was the synergy between hellbats and medivacs, so they take an approach to dealing with the problem that doesn't involve nerfing one unit or the other, just their special synergy. Kinda neat actually. Especially when you got blink stalkers should intercept them fine, even without blink I wouldnt really want to fly over a group of stalkers. But if you do photon overcharge you can just kill the medivac, then the hellbats are just sitting ducks. Very slow sitting ducks. The remaining time of the photon overcharge will also kill the hellbats, yes it costs some mining time, the terran also invested into it (especially if we are talking about 1-1-1). Anyway I am not arguiing that it isnt a effective solution, just that I dont even consider it close to being a neat solution. It is a very ugly solution. It is like saying marines are too good against roaches, so they get -2 damage vs roaches. Also an effective solution, but I also really wouldnt call that a neat solution.
It's not like that at all, because it's a specific unit damage nerf you're analogising, precisely what Blizzard are avoiding doing.
By the time I have plenty of blink stalkers, yea it's not a problem. I don't think Zerg are complaining about hellbat drops at the 15 minute mark, rather early on when they don't/can't have out what they need to deal with it...
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
I'm still hoping that one day tanks get a +shields damage. It would be nice :3
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Without the devastating effect of hellbat drops (insert strike at 7min), THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE TO META.
THERE WILL NEVER BE A NEED TO LEAVE UNITS AS SPOTTERS.
HotS will become WoL v2.0
The same sh*t all over again,
1) Defend against X drop by building Y units of Z, then A-move and resume macro.
2) Build deathball, stutter step, mass up infrastructure for the remax,
3) rebuild army post engagement,
4) repeat step 1 until win.
I don't even bother watching WoL anymore, I'm bored to tears, the excitement is gone.
Spectating SC2 has become BORING. Ask any casters and look at their viewership. It is shit compared to '11
Thanks to all the crybabies crying IMBA IMBA (and Dustin lacking a spine):
I have FALLEN ASLEEP WATCHING A LIVE CAST, let that sink in for awhile.
1) reaper harass/expand is dead
2) early Thor drops are dead
3) ghost openings are dead
4) 2 rax pressure into expand is dead
And that's just for Terran!
I'm sorry but you are the cancer killing SC2.
L2play or stick to WoL and your precious timings.
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On February 12 2013 22:39 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 21:32 GaliX wrote:
I dont see any real hard counter to Hellbats somehow in PvT mech play.
Drop scenario: Even if you spot the medivac in time, you have very very little time to react.
large numbers of Zelots just dissapear after the first 2 shot of 4 Hellbats
even moderate Numbers of Stalkers can't kill hellbats fast enough.
Big Battles:
Tank Thor battlehals
Zelots just dissapear as they charge in, no matter how many you got (so I stopped builing them when I see more then 4 hellbats on the field)
Stalkers are useless against tanks anyway.
So you have to stay on immortale, archon which are capable to deal with the army atm.
The big problem will be, when terrans somewhen realise what ghosts are capable against this composition. I see dark times coming when the meta games switches to a few ghosts + Hellbats + Tanks + Thor. I don't see any counter to this. Even voidsrays are to fragil to engage this army.
anybody can follow my thoughts? Dealing with a meching player? Expand aggressively ala Protoss brood war and transition into Sky protoss. I heard void rays do exceptionally well against tank/hellbat/thor and a couple of tempests annihilate thors without ever receiving any damage. Is this your idea of a 'no solution'? You should also see how VR overcharge, used in conjunction with timewarp decimate an entire viking fleet with ease which allows you free reign of the entire ground army. Maybe you should explore more protoss before complaining about the lack of good solutions protoss can field against mech. Last i checked, top tier terrans still have difficulty trading mech against robo based armies. Edit: Storms are also exceptional in fighting hellbats, they cannot split effectively and are naturally clumped when they attack.
mhh storm is right, I forgott about this.
The problem with skytoss is, that high terran hit something like a Pre Brutlords timing to me often. I have a couple voids but not enough.
But all in all you are right
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Just wait till more players will drop Mules for repair alongside the hellbat drop. Try to outdps a mule repair supported by a medivac + you can destroy/steal 30 minerals if they react late.
Met a few players who knew how much they need to stop a hellbat drop. But they never were prepared for Hellbat + Mule calldown.
Sorry if that was already mentioned, saw the worker repair comments. But why load in workers if you can summon super workers without taking spots in the Medivac.
In TvT I currently press the Load in ScV button of my CC at badly defended bases quiet often, NeoSteel is nice to have in TvT haha. But it is good that everyone does the Hellbat drops, really helps you train against it. Still fail sometimes in PvT with my cannon placement, but usually I can intercept the Medivacs before anyway (don't even think that I mean Stalkers).
I think it is easy to stop compared to defending a Reaver drop as Terran. And they basically derp like Zealots when they aren't controlled.
Making the Hellbat 4 dropsupply would probably trigger a way deadlier thing. Dropping 1 Hellbat and 2 Hellions that will roast your Workers (race specific upgrades for the Hellions included for optimized worker roasting) because you thought you had to retreat from 2 Hellbats as fast as possible and lined them up. Okay I guess Hellbat followed bei 3 Hellions is more deadly to Zerg and Terran.
I just hope they don't overkill most harassment options again like they did in Wings. As it would result in more powerful harassment units in the next expansion.
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On February 12 2013 22:40 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 22:34 marvellosity wrote:On February 12 2013 22:13 Sissors wrote:
And on the defense the toss has photon overcharge, that deals pretty well with drops.
Hellbats will kill 497 probes before photon overcharge does anything. Just sayin'. The problem Protoss had in WoL with hellions (early game), and in HotS with hellbats, is DPSing them down before they do their damage. A stalker takes 14 shots (20 seconds) to kill a hellbat. And now the medivacs can't even be intercepted with good positioning because of the speedboost. Really I think Blizz's solution is quite ok. The problem was the synergy between hellbats and medivacs, so they take an approach to dealing with the problem that doesn't involve nerfing one unit or the other, just their special synergy. Kinda neat actually. Especially when you got blink stalkers should intercept them fine, even without blink I wouldnt really want to fly over a group of stalkers. But if you do photon overcharge you can just kill the medivac, then the hellbats are just sitting ducks. Very slow sitting ducks. The remaining time of the photon overcharge will also kill the hellbats, yes it costs some mining time, the terran also invested into it (especially if we are talking about 1-1-1). Anyway I am not arguiing that it isnt a effective solution, just that I dont even consider it close to being a neat solution. It is a very ugly solution. It is like saying marines are too good against roaches, so they get -2 damage vs roaches. Also an effective solution, but I also really wouldnt call that a neat solution.
I don't think nearly as awkward as your example. In fact, this solution has already been implemented with banes that cost half supply and morph from lings, yet take 2 cargo space in ovies.
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The biggest problem of hellbats drop is the timing. The timing is so good that your opponent will hardly able to get the necessary units to deal with it effectively. This is worst in TvT, if the other T go for a marine opening he will just lose.
In ZvT ZvP, i think a good simcity will help defense hellbat drop alot easier.
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As Protoss, wouldn't opening Stargate and Phoenix shut down Hellion drops completely?
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Maybe make it cost like 25 gas to morph hellions into hellbats like banelings? even though they could transform back..
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EPT
