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On February 12 2013 12:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 11:08 Defacer wrote:
You guys should check out the TL Attack with Demuslim, where InControl and Catz challenge him to beat a Terran GM with just hellbats. He wins in less than ten minutes.
I'm sure that part of the problem is pros and high level players not properly defending against hellbat drops, but the amount of skill and resources a defending player has to employ seems disproportionately high compared to how easy a strategy it is. I've seen guys like IdrA defend against hellbat drops brilliantly (pulling drones pre-emptively, adding spines in his mineral lines).
Maybe the cargo nerf will be fine, but at the same time, couldn't a player just drop hellions and change them into hellbats? Didn't Terrans already have a fantastic unit for harassing drones, called hellions? Weren't hellbats simply intended to help counter mass zealots and lings?
Part of my issue with the hellbat is that it has strayed pretty far from it's original purpose.
Fuck "original purpose", I am the player, I will define what my units do. Liquid Hero did not listen when they told him that the colossi was not a harassment unit to be used with drop micro. These are new units and part of learning to deal with really strong, aggressive plays like the battle hellion drop is trial and error. What do you think it was like playing protoss for the first year of SC2, dealing with drop play from Terrans? I will tell you, a lot of trial and error. Putting down pylons in medivac paths, catching them, losing to stupid drops that shouldn't have worked. Did it seem over powered? Totally. Did people learn to deal with it? Yes. No one knows how to deal with hellbat drops, and that is what makes them awesome. Once people figure out the exact number of units needed to deal with them efficiently and how, they will become less awesome. I am not going to stay that the hellbat does not seem super powerful and the cargo nerf sounds reasonable. But I don't want them to nerf the unit itself. I want overpowered crap in the game and to get better at stopping it. I am tired of games where I can't be aggressive for the first 10 minutes without going all in. I want to be in my opponents face and punish him for messing up, and I don't want to spend a mint doing it. I want to kill you and build up a huge army if I don't kill you with my aggression. Really, is that to much to ask?
medivac speed was nerfed actually bro hehe
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On February 12 2013 04:32 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 04:28 Rabiator wrote:
Logically these "bio-mech" units should be roughly the size of Marauders (maybe a tiny bit larger) and consequently Marauders should be 4 slots as well then? A fully loaded Medivac of stimmed Marauders can tear down buildings pretty fast, so why didnt they adjust that when they had the chance? "Fixing" the Battle Hellion this way is completely ridiculous but demonstrates once again how they add "special solutions" just to get their crappy design working instead of fixing the basic flaws of the design first. So sad. The units are not to scale. Hellions are cars/buggies, yet the cockpit could not logically fit a driver which is about the size of a civilian from the campaign. Now think of how big a transformer is compared to a guy in a big suit. I think that it's a heck of a lot bigger, while in Hellion mode it packs in more easily since it's relatively sleek and flat in comparison.
Hellions arent THAT BIG and Marauders are a lot bigger than Marines ... Buggies arent that huge and they are a lot smaller than a tank.
The whole point of that comment was a bit of sarcasm directed at Blizzards awful balancing skills where they are throwing everything overboard just to make "their vision" work.
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On February 12 2013 14:34 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 04:32 Fencar wrote:On February 12 2013 04:28 Rabiator wrote:
Logically these "bio-mech" units should be roughly the size of Marauders (maybe a tiny bit larger) and consequently Marauders should be 4 slots as well then? A fully loaded Medivac of stimmed Marauders can tear down buildings pretty fast, so why didnt they adjust that when they had the chance? "Fixing" the Battle Hellion this way is completely ridiculous but demonstrates once again how they add "special solutions" just to get their crappy design working instead of fixing the basic flaws of the design first. So sad. The units are not to scale. Hellions are cars/buggies, yet the cockpit could not logically fit a driver which is about the size of a civilian from the campaign. Now think of how big a transformer is compared to a guy in a big suit. I think that it's a heck of a lot bigger, while in Hellion mode it packs in more easily since it's relatively sleek and flat in comparison. Hellions arent THAT BIG and Marauders are a lot bigger than Marines ... Buggies arent that huge and they are a lot smaller than a tank. The whole point of that comment was a bit of sarcasm directed at Blizzards awful balancing skills where they are throwing everything overboard just to make "their vision" work.
Funny that the people who complain loudest about balance don't even play the beta... How come every topic you join your contributions are non-constructive and complaining about the balance when you don't play HotS? Things like this make me wish the HotS forum was actually exclusive to HotS players...
Meanwhile, the proposed solution is about balance, who gives a crap about if units are to scale or not? Battlecruisers aren't to scale with the BC's in the FMV's either.... so what?? What the hell does that have to do with the balance of the game or game design? If you are going to complain about their balancing skills you should at least have a complaint that has something to do with the balance... Instead you complain about the visuals when that should be completely irrelevant when it comes to balance.
Thank god you don't balance the game.
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my question would be if hellbats take up 4 cargo space than would hellions still take up 2?
And I think this was mentioned on the Pulse or something but IMO a better solution is to make the medivac speed boost an upgrade out of a tech lab, not really expensive just don't let em get it right off the bat. In WoL you could deal with drops by sniping medivacs. In HOTS you literally cant kill the medivac without fast moving air units of your own, and the hellbat drop comes pretty fast
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its actually pretty funny to see arguments on unit size over balance. If you want to argue that way why not complain that a thor can be carried by a medivac yet only 8 marines can be carried lol
...anyways strange to see them take this cargo approach when it just seems more natural to nerf the damage that they do at first (upgrade brings them to current form) because....correct me if Im wrong but they get 18 damage spash no upgrade required correct?
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On February 12 2013 15:33 SuperYo1000 wrote:
its actually pretty funny to see arguments on unit size over balance. If you want to argue that way why not complain that a thor can be carried by a medivac yet only 8 marines can be carried lol
...anyways strange to see them take this cargo approach when it just seems more natural to nerf the damage that they do at first (upgrade brings them to current form) because....correct me if Im wrong but they get 18 damage spash no upgrade required correct?
why would they do that and possibly create balance problems(nerfing tvp mech) when they could fix it with an easy cargo space nerf.
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On February 12 2013 15:33 SuperYo1000 wrote:
its actually pretty funny to see arguments on unit size over balance. If you want to argue that way why not complain that a thor can be carried by a medivac yet only 8 marines can be carried lol
Exactly. But when that guys name pops up you shouldnt take him seriously. He has been popping up on every topic complaining about balance.... and he indicated that he doesn't even play HotS.
...anyways strange to see them take this cargo approach when it just seems more natural to nerf the damage that they do at first (upgrade brings them to current form) because....correct me if Im wrong but they get 18 damage spash no upgrade required correct?
In my opinion the cargo approach solves the problem perfectly.
If a Hellbat marched across the map to fight with you, he's not OP.
Medivacs alone aren't OP - you don't see them doing incredible damage like this alone.
The primary problem is the Hellbat + Medivac synergy. Medivacs and a bit of micro make up for the Hellbat's weakness (slow speed). But this isn't necessarily a bad thing - it's a good synergy if you can use one unit to make up for the other weaknesses. So it's good that they don't remove it completely. It's just a bit too easy atm when you can carry 4 of those per Medivac.
4 per Medivac produces many problems. It's available so early (you can have 4 of them dropping in to your base at 6:30), it's fairly easy to micro for the damage it does, and that many Hellions in your base so early can match enemies armies at that time due to the low cost of Hellbats. The cheap price of them isn't a problem in general, but when it comes to early game it's an issue since the other races need to use gas for their units that counter Hellbats, and gas is only getting going by the time the Hellbats are in.
So this solution is perfect to address the problem. They won't be so numerous early on. The unit itself isn't going to be nerfed. Neither are Medivacs. The strategy will still be viable, just take 42 seconds more for the opener, and a little more micro, which gives adequate time to not get demolished. And it will still be available to drop 4 in your enemy base at around 7:10 - which is very reasonable compared to the other races.
Taking all that in to consideration, I don't see any problems with the proposed fix. It's always a great thing when units/strats will still be viable post-nerf, and this one definitely won't be overdoing it.
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I just played a game vs Terran that was using these drops.
I placed 3 Spine Crawlers & 2 Spores per Hatch. (3 Spines inside line, 2 Spores near gases).
My mineral line read 3/3 17/16 3/3 prior to attack.
He dropped with just 1 medivac & 4 Hellbats.
My defense: 3 Spines/2 Spores/1 Queen
My units lost: 2/3 12/16 3/3 (He killed 6 drones)
His units lost: 4 Hellbats
Total this up:
5x Drones for static defense=250
Static defense=500
7 drones killed by random fire=350
Drone back those 7=350
nearly 1500 minerals
He lost 400 minerals & the Medivac escaped.
About two minutes later he drops again but with 8 total hellbats.
My mineral line was slaughtered down to 4 drones with all static defenses in line still.
Zerg is now forced to incorporate Roach Warren into every build vs Terran, along with extreme measures of static defenses.
If we go straight to roach? Just create mines & drop them in the line since we cannot afford the spore for detection. Or just delay mining greatly. Then throw down a couple mines near your base as you safely fill the mineral line with SVC's
If we go static defenses to counter it? We slaughter our economy and wrap so many minerals into defending one phase of the game. Terran can double expand behind this since they know we do not have the minerals to counter & we only have Zerg-lings to attack the home-front that has Hellbats there to slaughter.
If we go both? Well congrats, we defended this attack but we're stuck so far behind that Terran can get 3 bases up by the time you get across the map.
I realize I went to extreme measures to defend this attack, as I am trying this out due to "finding" a counter. But this is just ridiculous to deal with right now.
1/1/1-Drop-(create expansion while moving out)-transition into a timing with 1/1 Tanks-Medivacs-Marines vs Zerg.
Reasoning: Zerg has to kill their economy to defend or lose a huge amount of it for hellbats. We are forced to get roaches & tanks love a squash a roach. Bane speed will be hard to grab with roaches being required & won't have a significant amount of banes to deal with it.
They aren't really over-powered in my mind it's just the phase of the game they come in. My two cents
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So why couldnt you just load up 4 hellions in a medivac, drop them in mineral line and then transform them to hellbats?
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On February 12 2013 15:53 Neverblink wrote:
They aren't really over-powered in my mind it's just the phase of the game they come in. My two cents
Yup exactly. That's why I feel this is a great solution.
On February 12 2013 16:03 NukeD wrote:
So why couldnt you just load up 4 hellions in a medivac, drop them in mineral line and then transform them to hellbats?
They take like 4-5 seconds to change forms.
But it's not the Hellbats that are the problem. They are relatively slow and could be avoided. The problem is Medivacs with the speed boost can pick them up, turbo after you, drop right on top of you, repeat... and with more than 2 your units will die in a single shot. They can repeat this, and they can have it dropping in your base at 6:30. Which is a bit early, and extremely difficult to deal with - on the verge of "random" - even with some static defenses.
Even if you do a typical 7 Roach opener these units can drop in your base before the Roaches are even out, at which time another Medivac will be heading in soo, and properly dropping multiple Hellbats right on the Roaches could actually beat them if performed right. Roaches can hold their own w/ micro w/o the Medivacs, but so many on early drops is pretty crazy. You don't need a perfect composition, but you need it out extremely early AND to have some base defenses in place. And there's no clear way to tell exactly which harass is coming by scouting unless you happen to catch a Hellbat alive (which by that time you only have seconds until they are in your base).
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Cost 100 mineral and 0 gas, have 135hp, do 30 dmg vs light, 2 range and do splash damage. Problem?
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On February 12 2013 16:15 800800 wrote:
Cost 100 mineral and 0 gas, have 135hp, do 30 dmg vs light, 2 range and do splash damage. Problem?
I think it's healthy for the game that they are a strong unit. I don't want to see the unit become weaker for Terrans. The cargo nerf is pretty mild long term and should be sufficient.
It's pretty lame to have to do spores + spines at every base just incase they try the harass, and even if they do it's got a big random factor...
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Yeah, the problem with this is the medivac speed.
Even if you respond with perfect speed and pull your drones away and attack the hellbats with roaches, the medivac can move so much faster than the roaches that it can pick up the hellbats and drop them on your runned drones. Rinse and repeat.
It takes an enormous amount of attention and reaction speed and crisis management to not get outright destroyed immediately, and even if you defend it, you're still behind. What I saw IdrA doing with putting a spore out in the middle of his base for the drones to run to, but even with that, the medivac and all the hellbats can die, but he's still gutting your mineral line.
That zerg player that ran his ball of roaches around to defend the hellbats that blizzard mentioned, you know why? Because it takes a fucking ball of roaches to kill 4 hellbats with a medivac.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
so helldrops is overpowered and oracle play no? :D are kiddin me? :D
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On February 12 2013 16:15 800800 wrote:
Cost 100 mineral and 0 gas, have 135hp, do 30 dmg vs light, 2 range and do splash damage. Problem?
and you forgot can be healed by medivac
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Static defense is way too weak to deal with hellbat drops. Where do you have your cannons or spines when defending against a drop? Usually in or behind the mineral line. What do you do when you see a drop coming towards your worker?
Option 1: You let the cannons/spines do the work, send a group of units over there / warp in a bunch of units and leave the worker at the minerals. The medivac unloads and he puts his hellbats on hold position. Be amazed how long it takes your stuff to clean up the hellbats and be amazed on how fast your workers die.
Option 2: You transfer your worker away in time. He speedboosts past your static defense and drops right on top of your workertrain. Everything dies.
You can't stop a medivac with 3 cannons in place. You can't even stop it with 3-4 stalkers in place. Zerg and protoss both don't have viable units to deal with a hellbat drop and that's due to the hellbat having no real hard counter.
As some other already said: The hellbat is even in a full army composition powerful. He counters the core units of both protoss and zerg because zealot/ling are both melee units. It's just way too cheap for his stats and it comes quite early in the game. You have to commit too many ressources to deflect the drop to be able to apply any pressure against the terran at all. He can turtle up, tech and triple expand behind it without the worries of having to deal with a game ending push from the enemy all the while he has tools to end the game right there with his low cost drops.
A terran doesn't take any risks at all with his hellbat drops.
When it comes to cost you could compare it to a collosus drop. Both cost roughly equal amounts (500/100 to 500/200) of money. Compare them and gaze at how awesome hellbat drops really are. They come earlier, are slightly cheaper, deal way more damage and are less of a risk. They are even better than stormdrops.
Looking at the argument so far is funny. The vast majority commenting here are terrans and even among them a fair amount of people admit that hellbats are too good of a unit. The other terrans are "nah, hellbats are fine, l2p", "hellbats are only a problem in TvT, they are fine in the other matchups" or "I only need 2 widowmines to shut it down, no problem".
The problem has been around for quite some time now, it's just recently that it got more attention because everyone saw the korean pros do it. It's not a problem that JUST NOW appeared out of thin air and it will stay a problem until the nerfbat hits the hellbat.
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If you got structures on the edges it makes it way easier to respond. And also looking on the map.
I still do not believe they are played enough to say it is op. Even though pros lose to it - doesn't necessarily mean they have to be nerfed.
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Well, after some more games...every TvT is hellbat drop or anti-hellbat drop. Incredibly stupid. It's exactly the same as 2 shot blue flame hellions, whoever suicides more hellions into SCVS gets an advantage -_-
I don't even think it's the medivac speed, it's the healing.
Will be interesting to see if 2 weeks from now...maybe we all just suck at defending hellbats, otherwise TvT is pretty broken again lol.
As for TvZ...pretty funny, if Zerg only builds queens + drones they die a swift death (like they should). You can't play greedy vs hellbat + healing.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
Could not 3 supply work? You could still only drop 2 hellbats, but you could bring 2 marines or a Marauder (or I guess technically another Hellion and transform it on the ground). I agree that 4-hellbat drops are pretty crazy, but I would argue that they should first go for 3 cargo space, then up to 4 if the drops are still considered too strong by those who are actually good enough to judge.
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On February 12 2013 17:09 Fen1kz wrote:
so helldrops is overpowered and oracle play no? :D are kiddin me? :D
A single AA static defense can shut down oracle harass. The same can't be said for hellbat drops.
On February 12 2013 17:31 Zealously wrote:
Could not 3 supply work? You could still only drop 2 hellbats, but you could bring 2 marines or a Marauder (or I guess technically another Hellion and transform it on the ground). I agree that 4-hellbat drops are pretty crazy, but I would argue that they should first go for 3 cargo space, then up to 4 if the drops are still considered too strong by those who are actually good enough to judge.
Wow... so 4 hellbats 2 medivacs reaching the enemy base at 7:12 isn't good enough... u want 4 hellbats 4 marines?
How would the unit icons even look if they covered 3 slots? lol
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EPT
