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On February 12 2013 10:07 NKexquisite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 09:35 Harbinger631 wrote:
My preferred solution would be to make it so that the medivac can't turn (or can only turn very sluggishly) while boosting. This would make people need to cancel the boost (via hotkey) to use the medivac to support the drop. Once the boost is cancelled, the cooldown goes into effect, and you won't have a boosting medivac re-dropping hellbats at fleeing workers.
This way the hellbat drop remains strong, but workers will actually have a chance to get away.
This would also prevent the ridiculous animations of a boosted medivac dancing back and forth. Lmao. Thank god you aren't designing this game. Its like doing drops while doing things back in your main or controlling two drops at once was already so easy... Now you want to add more micro and attention to it?
Nobody's making you use the afterburner on the way to the mineral line. If you want to use that extra surprise factor, you'll have to pay for it with higher apm.
Otherwise, feel free to drop and macro like normal, except this time you'll have afterburners ready for a speedy escape.
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Perhaps there is a way that the shot cycle from the hellbat can be delayed when the unit is initially dropped. It seems like they shoot almost instantly once unloaded and that is the moment where an extra second to a good player paying attention can help the drop do less damage, but as it stands now even if you are paying attention it still isn't enough time to react.
This. They should "reaver" it. Hellbat drops would be fine if they didn't instantly melt anything underneath them when dropped. It's almost like banelings would be if Overlords had a cooldown that boosted them to mutalisk speed.
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You guys should check out the TL Attack with Demuslim, where InControl and Catz challenge him to beat a Terran GM with just hellbats. He wins in less than ten minutes.
I'm sure that part of the problem is pros and high level players not properly defending against hellbat drops, but the amount of skill and resources a defending player has to employ seems disproportionately high compared to how easy a strategy it is. I've seen guys like IdrA defend against hellbat drops brilliantly (pulling drones pre-emptively, adding spines in his mineral lines).
Maybe the cargo nerf will be fine, but at the same time, couldn't a player just drop hellions and change them into hellbats? Didn't Terrans already have a fantastic unit for harassing drones, called hellions? Weren't hellbats simply intended to help counter mass zealots and lings?
Part of my issue with the hellbat is that it has strayed pretty far from it's original purpose.
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The problem with Hellbats, aside from being really strong with medivacs&medivac boost, is that they make hellions pointless to make. I'd rather the hellion be the harass unit and not hellbats so there at least is a reason to use hellions and get blueflame. I liked that the hellbat was meant to be a part of the army and a meat shield for mech but now it's basically an all-purpose hellion.
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On February 12 2013 11:08 Defacer wrote:
You guys should check out the TL Attack with Demuslim, where InControl and Catz challenge him to beat a Terran GM with just hellbats. He wins in less than ten minutes.
I'm sure that part of the problem is pros and high level players not properly defending against hellbat drops, but the amount of skill and resources a defending player has to employ seems disproportionately high compared to how easy a strategy it is. I've seen guys like IdrA defend against hellbat drops brilliantly (pulling drones pre-emptively, adding spines in his mineral lines).
Maybe the cargo nerf will be fine, but at the same time, couldn't a player just drop hellions and change them into hellbats? Didn't Terrans already have a fantastic unit for harassing drones, called hellions? Weren't hellbats simply intended to help counter mass zealots and lings?
Part of my issue with the hellbat is that it has strayed pretty far from it's original purpose.
So you'd rather pigeonhole the unit and make it completely one-dimensional? I don't know, I think we'd rather be moving away from that sort of mentality.
The problem with Hellbats, aside from being really strong with medivacs&medivac boost, is that they make hellions pointless to make. I'd rather the hellion be the harass unit and not hellbats so there at least is a reason to use hellions and get blueflame. I liked that the hellbat was meant to be a part of the army and a meat shield for mech but now it's basically an all-purpose hellion.
Hellions are still great for map control. Look at the way Terrans in the GSL right now are using 5-8 Hellions to contain creep spread, and keeping them alive way into the midgame to do it. Hellbats have nothing on that.
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remove medivac speed boost + nerf dps on hellbats imo
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its a new strat, give it time before you guys make conclusions(remember all the strats everyone thought was op then a few months later no one complained). Good response by blizzard
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please wait at least 3 months before calling anything imba, didn't we learn that with wol?
lul.
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Finally Blizzard just explains what the players are doing wrong vs "op" strategies. This is preferred to staying silent and nerfing stuff that doesn't need to be nerfed because they see players are just playing incorrectly.
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BLUE FLAME (pre-nerf) drops are the same as HELL BAT drops. BLAME FLAME required upgrade research time but no ARMORY and it isopposite of hellbats. HELL BATS is stronger
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On February 12 2013 02:27 johnny123 wrote:
shut up man, they doing the best they can, This is what the community does, WHINE WHINE WHINE . Then blizzard comes in and nerfs, the strategy is effectively removed from the game. Less Variation in gameplay results. Boring stagnant metagame upon us.
I really hope blizzard gives the middle figur to all mass whiners. This crap about nerfing all the time destroys the game. The approach they might take ( about more cargo capacity for hellbats) is sound decision that wont completely eliminate the strategy but will weaken it. And THATS THE POINT.
then drop NORMAL hellions? seriously, do people even think before they post? and read the damn response from DKim, he clearly states that the zerg was just bad so this isn't necessarily going to be changed.
On February 12 2013 11:53 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Finally Blizzard just explains what the players are doing wrong vs "op" strategies. This is preferred to staying silent and nerfing stuff that doesn't need to be nerfed because they see players are just playing incorrectly.
but the problem with this is that this is ONE game, ONE case. Unless you want Dkim and crew to just have a .zip file of thousands of replays with analysis on each and everyone, that's not going to happen. you want specifics? ain't going to happen buddy, time is money and DKim gets paid to do this shit, you think blizzard would prefer him to spend 8 hours of his work day analyzing replays? or actually doing something about what he saw in the replays?
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On February 12 2013 10:51 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 10:42 avilo wrote:
The only problem with hellbats is them + speed medivacs. Hellbats as a unit themselves are fine imo. But the ability to speed boost a medivac over top of maynarding workers is like when TvT was only "who could kill the other guys workers first with blue flame hellions."
Right now, if you put 4 hellbats into a medivac, you can drop two on one side of the worker maynard, and two on the other side, almost guaranteeing you will kill a clump of workers.
Then on top of this you have hellbats being able to be healed by the medivac, which is just bad, and makes archons stronger vs mech in TvP.
So my thoughts:
a) it's good that they wait, lots of players aren't used to Terran actually being able to do anything to them anymore offensively. Zergs are used to droning up to 60, only build queens, cannot be harrassed at all. Guess what guys? Now you can be, build spines if you see this coming, stop playing greedy as fuck.
b) if they decide to nerf it, at least they are doing it in a way that does not make the unit useless or hurt anything else. Making it take up more cargo space seems like a good way to nerf specifically the ability to roast worker lines so fast.
c) REVERT THE HELLBAT TO A MECH UNIT. BATTLE HELLION MOTHER FUCKERS! Seriously! It hurts mech tvp when the battle hellion is bio. Archons essentially have an invisible zealot with them in each attack vs hellbats, which is bad.
d) After you revert the unit to a MECH UNIT, change the name back to "Battle Hellion." Hellbat sounds like some retardedly failed wannabe superhero.
Battle hellion sounds like you just came back from a battle in ancient greece and are ready to fuck your wife.
That is all. 1# master division on and basically only play grandmasters now. I only play mech and get the most crying from tosses and zergs, the protosses are just plain used to 1aing Mech with immortal zealot archon. the zergs are used to getting an insta win when they get to hive tech. Thats not true anymore and it seems to be giving them quite a bit of trouble, i dont think ill be beating grandmasters in the future once they learn to change their strats so i hope they dont nerf widows or battle hellions, or ravens because of the QQing.
If only I was the master race of Terran. Unfortunately I can only cry imbalance because everyone knows that zerg and toss players are knuckle dragging neanderthals that can only do one strategy and never improve so blizz balances around their whining.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 12 2013 12:06 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 02:27 johnny123 wrote:
shut up man, they doing the best they can, This is what the community does, WHINE WHINE WHINE . Then blizzard comes in and nerfs, the strategy is effectively removed from the game. Less Variation in gameplay results. Boring stagnant metagame upon us.
I really hope blizzard gives the middle figur to all mass whiners. This crap about nerfing all the time destroys the game. The approach they might take ( about more cargo capacity for hellbats) is sound decision that wont completely eliminate the strategy but will weaken it. And THATS THE POINT. then drop NORMAL hellions? seriously, do people even think before they post? and read the damn response from DKim, he clearly states that the zerg was just bad so this isn't necessarily going to be changed. Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 11:53 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Finally Blizzard just explains what the players are doing wrong vs "op" strategies. This is preferred to staying silent and nerfing stuff that doesn't need to be nerfed because they see players are just playing incorrectly. but the problem with this is that this is ONE game, ONE case. Unless you want Dkim and crew to just have a .zip file of thousands of replays with analysis on each and everyone, that's not going to happen. you want specifics? ain't going to happen buddy, time is money and DKim gets paid to do this shit, you think blizzard would prefer him to spend 8 hours of his work day analyzing replays? or actually doing something about what he saw in the replays?
Maybe DK just shouldn't give examples any more and just do stuff and not tell us why? I mean, since when he gives examples people freak out. When he doesn't, people freak out. When they patch things quickly, people freak out that they didn't let players learn to deal with it. Or if they don't patch things quickly, people claim they have no understanding of the game for not patching out the broken shit.
Or maybe the argument can be boiled down to "This is bullshit, Blizzards stance does not mirror my opinion. They clearly should have their jobs. Let me find some stuff that backs my opinion up and claim it is everyone opinion."
I am sure if it turns out to be broken, Blizzard will handle it. I like the, "We here you, but we want more data. But if it turns out to be busted, here is our plan to fix the busted thing." approach.
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On February 12 2013 11:08 Defacer wrote:
You guys should check out the TL Attack with Demuslim, where InControl and Catz challenge him to beat a Terran GM with just hellbats. He wins in less than ten minutes.
I'm sure that part of the problem is pros and high level players not properly defending against hellbat drops, but the amount of skill and resources a defending player has to employ seems disproportionately high compared to how easy a strategy it is. I've seen guys like IdrA defend against hellbat drops brilliantly (pulling drones pre-emptively, adding spines in his mineral lines).
Maybe the cargo nerf will be fine, but at the same time, couldn't a player just drop hellions and change them into hellbats? Didn't Terrans already have a fantastic unit for harassing drones, called hellions? Weren't hellbats simply intended to help counter mass zealots and lings?
Part of my issue with the hellbat is that it has strayed pretty far from it's original purpose.
Well, to be fair, units like MSC, tempest, oracles, widow mines have strayed as well. Not sure about Zerg units since most Zerg mainly just use WoL units.
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On February 12 2013 11:39 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 11:08 Defacer wrote:
You guys should check out the TL Attack with Demuslim, where InControl and Catz challenge him to beat a Terran GM with just hellbats. He wins in less than ten minutes.
I'm sure that part of the problem is pros and high level players not properly defending against hellbat drops, but the amount of skill and resources a defending player has to employ seems disproportionately high compared to how easy a strategy it is. I've seen guys like IdrA defend against hellbat drops brilliantly (pulling drones pre-emptively, adding spines in his mineral lines).
Maybe the cargo nerf will be fine, but at the same time, couldn't a player just drop hellions and change them into hellbats? Didn't Terrans already have a fantastic unit for harassing drones, called hellions? Weren't hellbats simply intended to help counter mass zealots and lings?
Part of my issue with the hellbat is that it has strayed pretty far from it's original purpose.
So you'd rather pigeonhole the unit and make it completely one-dimensional? I don't know, I think we'd rather be moving away from that sort of mentality. Show nested quote +The problem with Hellbats, aside from being really strong with medivacs&medivac boost, is that they make hellions pointless to make. I'd rather the hellion be the harass unit and not hellbats so there at least is a reason to use hellions and get blueflame. I liked that the hellbat was meant to be a part of the army and a meat shield for mech but now it's basically an all-purpose hellion. Hellions are still great for map control. Look at the way Terrans in the GSL right now are using 5-8 Hellions to contain creep spread, and keeping them alive way into the midgame to do it. Hellbats have nothing on that.
Hellions are crap for creep contain now with the 6 queen openings.
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On February 12 2013 11:08 Defacer wrote:
You guys should check out the TL Attack with Demuslim, where InControl and Catz challenge him to beat a Terran GM with just hellbats. He wins in less than ten minutes.
I'm sure that part of the problem is pros and high level players not properly defending against hellbat drops, but the amount of skill and resources a defending player has to employ seems disproportionately high compared to how easy a strategy it is. I've seen guys like IdrA defend against hellbat drops brilliantly (pulling drones pre-emptively, adding spines in his mineral lines).
Maybe the cargo nerf will be fine, but at the same time, couldn't a player just drop hellions and change them into hellbats? Didn't Terrans already have a fantastic unit for harassing drones, called hellions? Weren't hellbats simply intended to help counter mass zealots and lings?
Part of my issue with the hellbat is that it has strayed pretty far from it's original purpose.
Fuck "original purpose", I am the player, I will define what my units do. Liquid Hero did not listen when they told him that the colossi was not a harassment unit to be used with drop micro.
These are new units and part of learning to deal with really strong, aggressive plays like the battle hellion drop is trial and error. What do you think it was like playing protoss for the first year of SC2, dealing with drop play from Terrans? I will tell you, a lot of trial and error. Putting down pylons in medivac paths, catching them, losing to stupid drops that shouldn't have worked. Did it seem over powered? Totally. Did people learn to deal with it? Yes. No one knows how to deal with hellbat drops, and that is what makes them awesome. Once people figure out the exact number of units needed to deal with them efficiently and how, they will become less awesome.
I am not going to stay that the hellbat does not seem super powerful and the cargo nerf sounds reasonable. But I don't want them to nerf the unit itself. I want overpowered crap in the game and to get better at stopping it. I am tired of games where I can't be aggressive for the first 10 minutes without going all in. I want to be in my opponents face and punish him for messing up, and I don't want to spend a mint doing it.
I want to kill you and build up a huge army if I don't kill you with my aggression. Really, is that to much to ask?
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On February 12 2013 12:45 Plansix wrote:
Fuck "original purpose", I am the player, I will define what my units do. Liquid Hero did not listen when they told him that the colossi was not a harassment unit to be used with drop micro.
So, Blizzard should just make random changes to units without considering the reasons why they changed them in the first place? Now look who sounds like a crazy person.
Out of curiosity, why did Blizzard make hellbats healable? Where they really doing that badly in previous patches?
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On February 12 2013 13:08 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 12:45 Plansix wrote:
Fuck "original purpose", I am the player, I will define what my units do. Liquid Hero did not listen when they told him that the colossi was not a harassment unit to be used with drop micro.
So, Blizzard should just make random changes to units without considering the reasons why they changed them in the first place? Now look who sounds like a crazy person. Out of curiosity, why did Blizzard make hellbats healable? Where they really doing that badly in previous patches?
Man, you won't let this go. Also, that's not what I said at all and you are just spouting random crap. The unit is fine and kinda awesome as a robot car. It may need some tweaking, but all and all it is a unit people are being creative with.
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On February 12 2013 12:09 Glurkenspurk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 10:51 Pookie Monster wrote:On February 12 2013 10:42 avilo wrote:
The only problem with hellbats is them + speed medivacs. Hellbats as a unit themselves are fine imo. But the ability to speed boost a medivac over top of maynarding workers is like when TvT was only "who could kill the other guys workers first with blue flame hellions."
Right now, if you put 4 hellbats into a medivac, you can drop two on one side of the worker maynard, and two on the other side, almost guaranteeing you will kill a clump of workers.
Then on top of this you have hellbats being able to be healed by the medivac, which is just bad, and makes archons stronger vs mech in TvP.
So my thoughts:
a) it's good that they wait, lots of players aren't used to Terran actually being able to do anything to them anymore offensively. Zergs are used to droning up to 60, only build queens, cannot be harrassed at all. Guess what guys? Now you can be, build spines if you see this coming, stop playing greedy as fuck.
b) if they decide to nerf it, at least they are doing it in a way that does not make the unit useless or hurt anything else. Making it take up more cargo space seems like a good way to nerf specifically the ability to roast worker lines so fast.
c) REVERT THE HELLBAT TO A MECH UNIT. BATTLE HELLION MOTHER FUCKERS! Seriously! It hurts mech tvp when the battle hellion is bio. Archons essentially have an invisible zealot with them in each attack vs hellbats, which is bad.
d) After you revert the unit to a MECH UNIT, change the name back to "Battle Hellion." Hellbat sounds like some retardedly failed wannabe superhero.
Battle hellion sounds like you just came back from a battle in ancient greece and are ready to fuck your wife.
That is all. 1# master division on and basically only play grandmasters now. I only play mech and get the most crying from tosses and zergs, the protosses are just plain used to 1aing Mech with immortal zealot archon. the zergs are used to getting an insta win when they get to hive tech. Thats not true anymore and it seems to be giving them quite a bit of trouble, i dont think ill be beating grandmasters in the future once they learn to change their strats so i hope they dont nerf widows or battle hellions, or ravens because of the QQing. If only I was the master race of Terran. Unfortunately I can only cry imbalance because everyone knows that zerg and toss players are knuckle dragging neanderthals that can only do one strategy and never improve so blizz balances around their whining.
How long was sc2 played before mass infestator builds were discovered viable?
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On February 12 2013 13:48 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 12:09 Glurkenspurk wrote:On February 12 2013 10:51 Pookie Monster wrote:On February 12 2013 10:42 avilo wrote:
The only problem with hellbats is them + speed medivacs. Hellbats as a unit themselves are fine imo. But the ability to speed boost a medivac over top of maynarding workers is like when TvT was only "who could kill the other guys workers first with blue flame hellions."
Right now, if you put 4 hellbats into a medivac, you can drop two on one side of the worker maynard, and two on the other side, almost guaranteeing you will kill a clump of workers.
Then on top of this you have hellbats being able to be healed by the medivac, which is just bad, and makes archons stronger vs mech in TvP.
So my thoughts:
a) it's good that they wait, lots of players aren't used to Terran actually being able to do anything to them anymore offensively. Zergs are used to droning up to 60, only build queens, cannot be harrassed at all. Guess what guys? Now you can be, build spines if you see this coming, stop playing greedy as fuck.
b) if they decide to nerf it, at least they are doing it in a way that does not make the unit useless or hurt anything else. Making it take up more cargo space seems like a good way to nerf specifically the ability to roast worker lines so fast.
c) REVERT THE HELLBAT TO A MECH UNIT. BATTLE HELLION MOTHER FUCKERS! Seriously! It hurts mech tvp when the battle hellion is bio. Archons essentially have an invisible zealot with them in each attack vs hellbats, which is bad.
d) After you revert the unit to a MECH UNIT, change the name back to "Battle Hellion." Hellbat sounds like some retardedly failed wannabe superhero.
Battle hellion sounds like you just came back from a battle in ancient greece and are ready to fuck your wife.
That is all. 1# master division on and basically only play grandmasters now. I only play mech and get the most crying from tosses and zergs, the protosses are just plain used to 1aing Mech with immortal zealot archon. the zergs are used to getting an insta win when they get to hive tech. Thats not true anymore and it seems to be giving them quite a bit of trouble, i dont think ill be beating grandmasters in the future once they learn to change their strats so i hope they dont nerf widows or battle hellions, or ravens because of the QQing. If only I was the master race of Terran. Unfortunately I can only cry imbalance because everyone knows that zerg and toss players are knuckle dragging neanderthals that can only do one strategy and never improve so blizz balances around their whining. How long was sc2 played before mass infestator builds were discovered viable?
The infestor wasn't discovered; it was buffed so that it would be a good midgame unit against Protoss, and then people used it to win lots and lots of ZvP games.
The infestor was also used in ZvT before the patch, but people found it lacking, since choosing them over mutalisks forfeited map-control and the ability to harass. When Patch 1.3 was implemented, Fungal Growth could destroy massive groups of marines, regardless of Medivac healing, allowing Zergs to end games with a few clicks.
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EPT
