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On February 12 2013 09:21 i)awn wrote:
Hellbats are simply too good compared to other units that costs 100 minerals. Medivac speed boost is also too good given that it requires no upgrades. Why am I not surprised that there is a problem?
Because you don't expect other races to have strong units? I don't know why you're not surprised. It's not like this is being done behind a FE or 3OC build. It's fairly obvious when scouting and it crushes greedy and low unit builds.
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I'd rather nerf its damage and reintroduce the blue flame upgrade so it remains good in mid/late game.
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I havent been keeping track of all the changes in hots over the past few months (it mostly just gave me a headache and I decided to just wait till the game came out to see how it was) but does anyone else see something wrong with medivacs healing a mechanical unit? It doesn't make any sense...if they can heal hellbats why not heal tanks? Im not sure why they put that in the first place.
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On February 12 2013 09:27 RedMosquito wrote:
I havent been keeping track of all the changes in hots over the past few months (it mostly just gave me a headache and I decided to just wait till the game came out to see how it was) but does anyone else see something wrong with medivacs healing a mechanical unit? It doesn't make any sense...if they can heal hellbats why not heal tanks? Im not sure why they put that in the first place.
The funny trick is that the hellbat has a bio tag, meanwhile it's mech in its hellion form.
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On February 12 2013 09:21 Spyridon wrote:
I don't understand why there are ANY complaints about the proposed solution. Hellbats as a unit aren't the problem, neither are the medivacs aside from how they combine with this unit. Using Medivacs speed boost to help make up for Hellbats slow base speed is a nice form of synergy that requires micro, so I don't think it should be removed completely, just balanced out a bit.
So the proposed solution sounds awesome.
Complaints about it being healable and droppable are silly. And this is coming from someone who plays Zerg as their main. I think it's awesome for Terran that they have a strong, cheap unit - you can't expect each race not to have their own strengths.
The only potential problem is how strong the drops are early game, and the solution they came up with should be perfect - hurting the early game drops without affecting later game much, and still allowing "hellbat/medivac micro" which in the end should be good for the game, since more micro is always a plus.
People on the other side of the fence complaining that it will hurt the units too much, I disagree with that as well. You can still do the drops just will need double as many medivacs. This means you can still do the same "4 hellbat" drops just 42 seconds later. Nothing too major, just a slight delay, which should even things out a bit, and prevent 4 hellbat drops at 6:30 - instead it would be 7:10'ish, which is more than reasonable. Plus a 2nd medivac = more micro.
I don't think I saw anybody say it was an unreasonable suggestion. I only see people that, more or less, want the unit removed from the game and those defending the unit.
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My preferred solution would be to make it so that the medivac can't turn (or can only turn very sluggishly) while boosting. This would make people need to cancel the boost (via hotkey) to use the medivac to support the drop. Once the boost is cancelled, the cooldown goes into effect, and you won't have a boosting medivac re-dropping hellbats at fleeing workers.
This way the hellbat drop remains strong, but workers will actually have a chance to get away.
This would also prevent the ridiculous animations of a boosted medivac dancing back and forth.
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Omg, so much whining. Some of you guys are acting like a new metagame will not require embarassing games.
Here is my zerg opinion so far at my level (plat WoL). Yes, hellbats are very very strong. Almost all terrans seems to build them, so you get good practice pretty fast. Let me give you an example.
I played a game today where I got completely owned. Not by the drops. He dropped both my main and nat, and I responded very fast and pulled my drones at both bases. He picked up to chase them, I split them and microed away. All while i was roach pressuring his base. Then my roaches pop at home, I eventually clean up the hellbats, who are trying to jump between bases. I get some spores up too. I watched the replay, I only lost 6 or so drones. Was so proud.
Still lost imediatelly after that.
He basically went 1-1-1, then added two more rax with tech labs and pushed with a bunch of marauders w a few hellbats infront. I was so taxed for APM that a) I was denied mining with almost all my drones for quite a while and b) I barely could squeeze in a few unit production rounds between the INSANE micro required to run around my drones to escape the super fast medivacs while trying to kill his hellbats with a few roaches, splitting the few I had between nat and main. ETc
So when the frankly not that big push comes, the 10-15 roaches I have out get owned by the marauders. It is not even close. It felt like I would have needed more than twice his supply to survive. I felt I played it as good as I could and still I was owned completely by the follow up push. I watched the replay, and because I was so stressed I did not respond more clearly to the dbl reactor baracks that I actually scouted with my pressure. Basically, I die with larvae and money (just apm was empty for along while, but as I come out I rearrange my base and eco instead of max producing imediatelly). I guess that was on me.
To sum up. It is a sick build for terran. The drop itself can easilly flat out win you the game. If you don't you know that zerg resonse will be very predictable, either 4+ queens or roaches, maybe some spines - all which marauders completely own. And with 2-3 hellbat in support, lings will hardly do much vs the marauders. Since terran is trading moderate apm for eco damage and maximum apm you are safe vs attacks and will be guaranteed to have a macro advantage even though you are extremely aggressive.
Guys, this is an example of what HotS will provide. A dangerous early game where you have to be on your toes, at all times.
WoL early game was non existent, so almost all scouting was about responding to mid game choices and later. Is that the best that can be? No, so there needs to be development.
Ppl whine about boring WoL metagame and stale gameplay where casters have to kill time half the game. How the heck do you think it will change? The only way the meta game will develop significantly in a new game (HotS) is by very good players getting owned until somebody actually gets CREATIVE instead of just copying builds, hurr durr...
Is the hellbat too strong? I don't know, it sure feels like one the stronger units in the game right now in terms of harass, but in a straight up fight it just feels normal and just good in a solid way. Perhaps the new meta will be to have base defense as standard (units/turrets/spores/spines/cannons). Maybee .... zerg will obsess about overlord placement and rush to overlord speed, terran will burn scans before 6 minutes, protoss will focus on base defense before detection or be proactive and just ultra aggressive instead, who knows?
One thing is certain, it will COST you MORE to feel safe in HotS.
For me, turtle air toss is still harder to deal with than hellbat drops. Im frustrated too, but instead of whining about it on in internet posts I'm trying to learn to hit him hard before he cannons up his third too much. Won my two first games today vs air-toss. Had not won even one such game before, since december. At my level sure, but still made me happy. Both where kills before he got the big ball up so I guess that is the new meta in that matchup. Hit timing attacks and drain toss during early and midgame, so if late game becomes neccessary you can atleast enter it on better terms. When you think of it, a chunk of something like that is necessary to evolve from WoL ZvP. Of course, zerg still has to be able to deal with air toss in late late game. We'll see if the new meta will have that eventually or not, I sure hope so.
Regardless. Just let it happen, pain is not necessary.
I can't help to think that after the pros figure all this out it will be copied and all the whiners will be happy.
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People so fast to always make changes to Terran... Finally Blizzard telling people to figure it out... Too bad they didn't take the same approach when they removed Snipe from the game.
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hellbat drops don't bother me at all, mines kill medivacs in 2 shots anyways lol.
also the change haven't been out for very long, and pros haven't even moved onto this game, so wtf are you guys complaining about (I mean that's what you guys said about infestor in wol for about 3 months)
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On February 12 2013 02:21 Fencar wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7894179582Show nested quote +We're hearing your feedback on Hellbat drops being overpowered. We've also been watching all the tournament games and as many highest level pro streams as possible.
They're really powerful, but we're still seeing a lot of players who really haven't had the time to learn to deal with them yet.
For example, in last week's MLG qualifier matches, a top end korean Zerg player lost 3 of 4 matches just to Hellbat drops. However, in this specific series, we were definitely seeing flaws in play. The Zerg player had roaches in 1 single ball and moved to defend vs. each dropship coming into multiple locations. Against this type of Zerg defense, just the normal Marine drops would have done just as much damage.
If a nerf is needed, we'd probably increase the cargo space on Hellbats to 4 so that we can only affect this specific scenario. We'll do our best to determine what's correct for this strategy, but please remember we're looking into every major community concern and carefully analyzing them. I feel like they're not looking very closely at how the Hellbat affects TvT Mech vs Bio,which I elaborate on in post #4 in the thread. At the same time, I think this will address the problem of extremely strong Hellbat drops though, while if you want to do a Hellbat/MM drop you can drop them in Hellion mode and then transform as the Zerg starts to respond. I think that this is a good first step towards making the Hellbat a balanced unit, after they made it overpowered. Assuming they make the change, of course.
You do realize that mech is supposed to slaughter bio right? Bio only won against Mech in WoL because of Blizzards bad balancing. In BW mech absolutely slaughtered bio and I think that same change should be implemented in SC2 as well to remove the 1a scenarios and turn the game into a chess match like TvT used to be.
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On February 12 2013 09:35 Harbinger631 wrote:
My preferred solution would be to make it so that the medivac can't turn (or can only turn very sluggishly) while boosting. This would make people need to cancel the boost (via hotkey) to use the medivac to support the drop. Once the boost is cancelled, the cooldown goes into effect, and you won't have a boosting medivac re-dropping hellbats at fleeing workers.
This way the hellbat drop remains strong, but workers will actually have a chance to get away.
This would also prevent the ridiculous animations of a boosted medivac dancing back and forth.
Lmao. Thank god you aren't designing this game. Its like doing drops while doing things back in your main or controlling two drops at once was already so easy... Now you want to add more micro and attention to it?
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I dont understand why Blizzard is answering that! In all games TvP,TvT or TvZ I watched played by Pros,they just dont care about defense!!!!
After 1-1-1 reaching tier 3 the less you expect is to deal some damage and if you fail you remain so far behind...People just must try to learn how to defend.
TvT There is totally possible to go for 1rax FE into 3rax and then go for BIO or Marine Tank and defend it.YOu got the time to build a turret and let some marines to kill the medivac,even kill the Hellbats.
TvP YOu can scout so easy and let stalkers just to snipe the medivac and its done...
TvZ Do Z players know about spores???Queens? Many players are making roaches only to stop hellion harass.If you as Z scout your enemy is going for Hellion or BFH drop,wont you build some roaches? I tried this hellbat drop a lot and only 5 Roaches can deal with it even without micro...
Please,stop crying and learn to play
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On February 12 2013 10:04 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 02:21 Fencar wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7894179582We're hearing your feedback on Hellbat drops being overpowered. We've also been watching all the tournament games and as many highest level pro streams as possible.
They're really powerful, but we're still seeing a lot of players who really haven't had the time to learn to deal with them yet.
For example, in last week's MLG qualifier matches, a top end korean Zerg player lost 3 of 4 matches just to Hellbat drops. However, in this specific series, we were definitely seeing flaws in play. The Zerg player had roaches in 1 single ball and moved to defend vs. each dropship coming into multiple locations. Against this type of Zerg defense, just the normal Marine drops would have done just as much damage.
If a nerf is needed, we'd probably increase the cargo space on Hellbats to 4 so that we can only affect this specific scenario. We'll do our best to determine what's correct for this strategy, but please remember we're looking into every major community concern and carefully analyzing them. I feel like they're not looking very closely at how the Hellbat affects TvT Mech vs Bio,which I elaborate on in post #4 in the thread. At the same time, I think this will address the problem of extremely strong Hellbat drops though, while if you want to do a Hellbat/MM drop you can drop them in Hellion mode and then transform as the Zerg starts to respond. I think that this is a good first step towards making the Hellbat a balanced unit, after they made it overpowered. Assuming they make the change, of course. You do realize that mech is supposed to slaughter bio right? Bio only won against Mech in WoL because of Blizzards bad balancing. In BW mech absolutely slaughtered bio and I think that same change should be implemented in SC2 as well to remove the 1a scenarios and turn the game into a chess match like TvT used to be.
Says who? Blizzard? Or just you?
The game that was voted the best of 2012 was a TvT where one player went mech and the other bio (MMA vs Gumiho). Just because BW handled a match-up in a certain way doesn't mean that needs to apply to SC2. Hell, it doesn't even mean that the BW approach was the right one. The more varied playstyles, the better. You can have both mech vs mech chess matches as well as fast-paced bio games.
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Hellbats are exactly like blue flame hellions early on wings they do way too much damage too fast. You have no time to react before they wipe out huge clumps of workers for not that much risk. I dont know how anyone can not see it I mean its pretty obvious already they are clearly OP right now. When innovation vs TY is both terrans going hellbat drops every game you know there is a problem and its boring because why would anyone with sense not make hellbats early game?
The announcers even said no unit in terms of stats matches up to the hellbat. I guess leave them so I can ladder up in hots with drops every game
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On February 12 2013 10:33 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 10:04 BlazeFury01 wrote:On February 12 2013 02:21 Fencar wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7894179582We're hearing your feedback on Hellbat drops being overpowered. We've also been watching all the tournament games and as many highest level pro streams as possible.
They're really powerful, but we're still seeing a lot of players who really haven't had the time to learn to deal with them yet.
For example, in last week's MLG qualifier matches, a top end korean Zerg player lost 3 of 4 matches just to Hellbat drops. However, in this specific series, we were definitely seeing flaws in play. The Zerg player had roaches in 1 single ball and moved to defend vs. each dropship coming into multiple locations. Against this type of Zerg defense, just the normal Marine drops would have done just as much damage.
If a nerf is needed, we'd probably increase the cargo space on Hellbats to 4 so that we can only affect this specific scenario. We'll do our best to determine what's correct for this strategy, but please remember we're looking into every major community concern and carefully analyzing them. I feel like they're not looking very closely at how the Hellbat affects TvT Mech vs Bio,which I elaborate on in post #4 in the thread. At the same time, I think this will address the problem of extremely strong Hellbat drops though, while if you want to do a Hellbat/MM drop you can drop them in Hellion mode and then transform as the Zerg starts to respond. I think that this is a good first step towards making the Hellbat a balanced unit, after they made it overpowered. Assuming they make the change, of course. You do realize that mech is supposed to slaughter bio right? Bio only won against Mech in WoL because of Blizzards bad balancing. In BW mech absolutely slaughtered bio and I think that same change should be implemented in SC2 as well to remove the 1a scenarios and turn the game into a chess match like TvT used to be. Says who? Blizzard? Or just you? The game that was voted the best of 2012 was a TvT where one player went mech and the other bio (MMA vs Gumiho). Just because BW handled a match-up in a certain way doesn't mean that needs to apply to SC2. Hell, it doesn't even mean that the BW approach was the right one. The more varied playstyles, the better. You can have both mech vs mech chess matches as well as fast-paced bio games.
BW Bio got destroyed by mech and by just about any protoss build and yet no one seems to think that was imbalanced anymore. Mech vs Zerg was pretty bad too.
i got into the professional broodwar scene kinda late, i wonder how much QQing about balance and shitty game design was being said back then, then when WOL came out all those same people started pretending that BW was absolute perfection just because they have something new to whine about.
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The only problem with hellbats is them + speed medivacs. Hellbats as a unit themselves are fine imo. But the ability to speed boost a medivac over top of maynarding workers is like when TvT was only "who could kill the other guys workers first with blue flame hellions."
Right now, if you put 4 hellbats into a medivac, you can drop two on one side of the worker maynard, and two on the other side, almost guaranteeing you will kill a clump of workers.
Then on top of this you have hellbats being able to be healed by the medivac, which is just bad, and makes archons stronger vs mech in TvP.
So my thoughts:
a) it's good that they wait, lots of players aren't used to Terran actually being able to do anything to them anymore offensively. Zergs are used to droning up to 60, only build queens, cannot be harrassed at all. Guess what guys? Now you can be, build spines if you see this coming, stop playing greedy as fuck.
b) if they decide to nerf it, at least they are doing it in a way that does not make the unit useless or hurt anything else. Making it take up more cargo space seems like a good way to nerf specifically the ability to roast worker lines so fast.
c) REVERT THE HELLBAT TO A MECH UNIT. BATTLE HELLION MOTHER FUCKERS! Seriously! It hurts mech tvp when the battle hellion is bio. Archons essentially have an invisible zealot with them in each attack vs hellbats, which is bad.
d) After you revert the unit to a MECH UNIT, change the name back to "Battle Hellion." Hellbat sounds like some retardedly failed wannabe superhero.
Battle hellion sounds like you just came back from a battle in ancient greece and are ready to fuck your wife.
That is all.
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i dont really understand the point of nerfing cargo space; people would just load up hellions and then transform on drop. sure its a little more micro but essentially the same result.
i dont know the best way to balance this, since hellbats are essentially rape on zerglings, it forces the zerg to go into roaches. anytime a strategy is forced I think it's bad, just like robo opening is almost forced in TvP WoL right now (or onesided banshee gg)
well, i hope they try SOMETHING...
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for those complaining about the supply count in a medivac etc...
Banelings cost 1/2 a supply and only 4 of them fit in an overlord. remember that when complaining plz
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On February 12 2013 10:42 avilo wrote:
The only problem with hellbats is them + speed medivacs. Hellbats as a unit themselves are fine imo. But the ability to speed boost a medivac over top of maynarding workers is like when TvT was only "who could kill the other guys workers first with blue flame hellions."
Right now, if you put 4 hellbats into a medivac, you can drop two on one side of the worker maynard, and two on the other side, almost guaranteeing you will kill a clump of workers.
Then on top of this you have hellbats being able to be healed by the medivac, which is just bad, and makes archons stronger vs mech in TvP.
So my thoughts:
a) it's good that they wait, lots of players aren't used to Terran actually being able to do anything to them anymore offensively. Zergs are used to droning up to 60, only build queens, cannot be harrassed at all. Guess what guys? Now you can be, build spines if you see this coming, stop playing greedy as fuck.
b) if they decide to nerf it, at least they are doing it in a way that does not make the unit useless or hurt anything else. Making it take up more cargo space seems like a good way to nerf specifically the ability to roast worker lines so fast.
c) REVERT THE HELLBAT TO A MECH UNIT. BATTLE HELLION MOTHER FUCKERS! Seriously! It hurts mech tvp when the battle hellion is bio. Archons essentially have an invisible zealot with them in each attack vs hellbats, which is bad.
d) After you revert the unit to a MECH UNIT, change the name back to "Battle Hellion." Hellbat sounds like some retardedly failed wannabe superhero.
Battle hellion sounds like you just came back from a battle in ancient greece and are ready to fuck your wife.
That is all.
1# master division on and basically only play grandmasters now. I only play mech and get the most crying from tosses and zergs, the protosses are just plain used to 1aing Mech with immortal zealot archon. the zergs are used to getting an insta win when they get to hive tech. Thats not true anymore and it seems to be giving them quite a bit of trouble, i dont think ill be beating grandmasters in the future once they learn to change their strats so i hope they dont nerf widows or battle hellions, or ravens because of the QQing.
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On February 12 2013 02:27 johnny123 wrote:
shut up man, they doing the best they can, This is what the community does, WHINE WHINE WHINE . Then blizzard comes in and nerfs, the strategy is effectively removed from the game. Less Variation in gameplay results. Boring stagnant metagame upon us.
I really hope blizzard gives the middle figur to all mass whiners. This crap about nerfing all the time destroys the game. The approach they might take ( about more cargo capacity for hellbats) is sound decision that wont completely eliminate the strategy but will weaken it. And THATS THE POINT.
someone mad that their op hell bats may be nerfed soon......Don't insult other people surprised your post have not been warned yet.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
