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On February 12 2013 06:34 Glurkenspurk wrote:Even with camera hotkeys and perfect vision between your bases it's impossible to split up your army fast enough to defend a speed medivac battle hellion drop without spending like 5x the resources of his drop to defend it. The fact that David Kim cannot see the difference between marine drops and battle hellion drops is mindblowing. Marine drops can't erase a mineral line instantly after dropping. Marine drops can be stopped without sending half of your army to defend them. Marines even have to injure themselves to deal proper damage! + Show Spoiler +i refuse to call them hellbats
Or instead of running away your workers all together you could try to spread them out,what I see the most is that players just move all their workers at once, of course the speedy hellbat medivac drop will catch the clumped up workers and decimate them.
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Why are people continuing to whine about Hellbat drops in this thread instead of discussing the ramifications of the proposed suggestion by Blizzard?
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As terran player I agree hellbats drops need some attention and proposed change makes sense.
Going to Hellbat itself as a unit I belive that slight nerf to base damage with keeping vs light as same level would be needed (from 18+12 to 15+15).
Blizzard refused to buff tanks directly in lategame and chose hellbats and widow mines to be "core" of mech army with tanks being "support" like high templars in toss's deathball when you have max 6. People are free to disagree with such approach however I think we should wait and see, maybe that version of mech is going to be more fun to watch and play.
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On February 12 2013 06:34 Glurkenspurk wrote:Even with camera hotkeys and perfect vision between your bases it's impossible to split up your army fast enough to defend a speed medivac battle hellion drop without spending like 5x the resources of his drop to defend it. The fact that David Kim cannot see the difference between marine drops and battle hellion drops is mindblowing. Marine drops can't erase a mineral line instantly after dropping. Marine drops can be stopped without sending half of your army to defend them. Marines even have to injure themselves to deal proper damage! + Show Spoiler +i refuse to call them hellbats
His point was that with the level of control the Zerg player had, the Terran might as well have gone for Marine drops and done a similar amount of damage winning the game either way.
In other words, the Zerg got out played.
Not saying that Hellbat drops aren't OP, but he has a point.
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On February 12 2013 02:29 NukeD wrote:
Does this mean their supply cost and the space they take up in medivacs would be different numbers???
thats true for a lot of units i dont get your point
also i think if hellbat drops are really that overpowered this might be a good way to balance them, although it is counter-intuitive that only 2 hellbats fit in a dropship
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On February 12 2013 06:41 Seiniyta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 06:34 Glurkenspurk wrote:Even with camera hotkeys and perfect vision between your bases it's impossible to split up your army fast enough to defend a speed medivac battle hellion drop without spending like 5x the resources of his drop to defend it. The fact that David Kim cannot see the difference between marine drops and battle hellion drops is mindblowing. Marine drops can't erase a mineral line instantly after dropping. Marine drops can be stopped without sending half of your army to defend them. Marines even have to injure themselves to deal proper damage! + Show Spoiler +i refuse to call them hellbats Or instead of running away your workers all together you could try to spread them out,what I see the most is that players just move all their workers at once, of course the speedy hellbat medivac drop will catch the clumped up workers and decimate them.
How do you spread your workers fast enough to stop a ninja fast medivac from dropping on top of your probes?
You'd have to see the medivac coming, stop everything else you're doing, and do the stop-f1 trick super well to prevent him from being retardedly cost efficient.
At least against other drops you can salvage against a small mistake, but one small mistake against these things just makes you auto lose.
I still think the entire hellion/hellbat design is completely stupid anyway.
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First and foremost, obviously they need to be armored units; too many supposed counters like Stalkers and Immortals die to them in throves. After they lose the bio designation, we will see if an HP nerf is still warranted. But please, at least make Hellbats armored. It seems so god damned obvious.
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On February 12 2013 06:58 LF[Media] wrote:
First and foremost, obviously they need to be armored units; too many supposed counters like Stalkers and Immortals die to them in throves. After they lose the bio designation, we will see if an HP nerf is still warranted. But please, at least make Hellbats armored. It seems so god damned obvious.
No. No. A hundred and ninety-nine thousand times, no. Last thing the game needs is immortalls rolling over mech play. It would make mech just as bad as wings. The immortal would basically be the protoss warhound.
And how are you losing stalkers to hellbats? They have like triple the range and a huge speed advantage.
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On February 12 2013 07:16 Rowrin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 06:58 LF[Media] wrote:
First and foremost, obviously they need to be armored units; too many supposed counters like Stalkers and Immortals die to them in throves. After they lose the bio designation, we will see if an HP nerf is still warranted. But please, at least make Hellbats armored. It seems so god damned obvious. No. No. A hundred and ninety-nine thousand times, no. Last thing the game needs is immortalls rolling over mech play. It would make mech just as bad as wings. The immortal would basically be the protoss warhound. And how are you losing stalkers to hellbats? They have like triple the range and a huge speed advantage.
Stalkers have awful DPS; they can't kill the Hellbats fast enough before one of three things happens:
1) The Stalkers stop kiting and just run because the Protoss is busy doing macro. This leads to 3)
2) The Stalkers get cornered by a fast unit or prepositioned unit like some Widow Mines, Banshees, or other unit, leading to the death of the Stalkers.
3) The Stalkers get cornered while trying to defend a base, such as the Protoss' third, a probe line, a tech building, or otherwise.
Hellbats are tough units.
I agree that making Hellbats armored would be terrible, though I still think they should be nerfed in some way.
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Catz just dropped a bunch of truth bombs on his stream about Hellbats.
He explained that hellbats are essentially 100 mineral, Gasless 'roaches' at tier 1 that can be healed by medivacs. And that in 2v2s, him and Drewbie essentially would just mass roaches and medivacs because they knew how ridiculously OP a timing it would be in the early mid-game
Giving Terrans hellbats is as broken an idea as giving Zerg dropships at tier 1. And Catz basically called bullshit on David Kim, saying anyone that doesn't recognize that should be fired from balancing the game.
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I still don't understand why hellbats can be healed by medivacs.
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First and foremost, obviously they need to be armored units; too many supposed counters like Stalkers and Immortals die to them in throves. After they lose the bio designation, we will see if an HP nerf is still warranted. But please, at least make Hellbats armored. It seems so god damned obvious.
Uh... The point of Hellbats *was* to act as a tough frontline unit against Stalkers and Immortals, in order to make Mech versus Protoss more viable. Your suggestion would be similar to making Zealots armored, so "supposed counters" like Marauders, Siege Tanks and Stalkers can take them down too. Hellbats were not intended to be hard-countered by Stalkers and Immortals.
Anyway, making Hellbats armored would hardly solve the issue being discussed here, the Hellbat drop in TvZ and TvT. (Apparently it is not being discussed for TvP, if you notice.)
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On February 12 2013 07:26 vesicular wrote:
I still don't understand why hellbats can be healed by medivacs.
i don't understand why they're cheaper than roaches despite being way more versatile 'out-of-the-box'.
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On February 12 2013 07:21 Defacer wrote:
Catz just dropped a bunch of truth bombs on his stream about Hellbats.
He explained that hellbats are essentially 100 mineral, Gasless 'roaches' at tier 1 that can be healed by medivacs. And that in 2v2s, him and Drewbie essentially would just mass roaches and medivacs because they knew how ridiculously OP a timing it would be in the early mid-game
Giving Terrans hellbats is as broken an idea as giving Zerg dropships at tier 1. And Catz basically called bullshit on David Kim, saying anyone that doesn't recognize that should be fired from balancing the game.
Ehh, what? I don't see anyone actually massing hellbats like they would mass roaches. The problem comes from medivac mobility combined with the splash for killing workers.
Why would directly compare two units that are used in such radically different ways? They cannot be used like roaches, and never will be due to how terran production works.
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On February 12 2013 07:29 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:21 Defacer wrote:
Catz just dropped a bunch of truth bombs on his stream about Hellbats.
He explained that hellbats are essentially 100 mineral, Gasless 'roaches' at tier 1 that can be healed by medivacs. And that in 2v2s, him and Drewbie essentially would just mass roaches and medivacs because they knew how ridiculously OP a timing it would be in the early mid-game
Giving Terrans hellbats is as broken an idea as giving Zerg dropships at tier 1. And Catz basically called bullshit on David Kim, saying anyone that doesn't recognize that should be fired from balancing the game. Ehh, what? I don't see anyone actually massing hellbats like they would mass roaches. The problem comes from medivac mobility combined with the splash for killing workers. Why would directly compare two units that are used in such radically different ways? They cannot be used like roaches, and never will be due to how terran production works.
What Catz is saying is that if you gave Zerg dropships or made overlords heal, that would be PRECISELY how roaches would be used. And it would be undeniably broken.
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On February 12 2013 07:21 Defacer wrote:
Catz just dropped a bunch of truth bombs on his stream about Hellbats.
He explained that hellbats are essentially 100 mineral, Gasless 'roaches' at tier 1 that can be healed by medivacs. And that in 2v2s, him and Drewbie essentially would just mass roaches and medivacs because they knew how ridiculously OP a timing it would be in the early mid-game
Giving Terrans hellbats is as broken an idea as giving Zerg dropships at tier 1. And Catz basically called bullshit on David Kim, saying anyone that doesn't recognize that should be fired from balancing the game.
I like how if CatZ says it, they become truth bombs. This is how facts are found folks, on semi-professional player's streams. I mean, this argument is one step above "It was on the TV, so it must be true".
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Conclusion: Marines are IMBA IMBA IMBA and tanks are way to weak plus the energy bars on ghosts really ruin the game since immortals have feedback. Blizzard tries to make Wow into Diablo and they will buff roaches again.
At least that's the way it feels reading this thread. Or any other Hots thread on here. Why do I keep on doing these mistakes? :/
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maybe nerf the hp to 125 so its not that big of a problem in tvt cause they actually get oneshot by windowmines? also for the other matchup i feel like u have indeed to wait how it plays out.
but against bio... really annoying yeah
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I wish they'd just remove medivacs healing hellbats because it straight up makes no sense. Might not be the nerf people want, but part of the problem I think is just how durable these drops are. There's lots of stuff in the game that will evaporate a mineral line in seconds. Most of it doesn't actually put up a fight against a reasonable defense though.
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On February 12 2013 07:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:21 Defacer wrote:
Catz just dropped a bunch of truth bombs on his stream about Hellbats.
He explained that hellbats are essentially 100 mineral, Gasless 'roaches' at tier 1 that can be healed by medivacs. And that in 2v2s, him and Drewbie essentially would just mass roaches and medivacs because they knew how ridiculously OP a timing it would be in the early mid-game
Giving Terrans hellbats is as broken an idea as giving Zerg dropships at tier 1. And Catz basically called bullshit on David Kim, saying anyone that doesn't recognize that should be fired from balancing the game. I like how if CatZ says it, they become truth bombs. This is how facts are found folks, on semi-professional player's streams. I mean, this argument is one step above "It was on the TV, so it must be true".
Actually, the argument is true because it's true.
How can you possible rationailize a unit that is cheaper than a roach, does aoe splash, and is healable and droppable at tier1?
Hell, why no make viking healable too? A medivac can already pick them up.
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EPT
