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On February 14 2013 05:04 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont get why the medivacs just arbitrarily have the speed boost. Its retarded game design if you ask me. Its the same principal as warp gate research- theres no reason to not use it. It lends itself to mindless play and lack of variety in the games.
The hellbats drops are just symptoms indicating a bigger problem.
I disagree. Having the speed boost makes for more dynamic drop play. It's not a matter of using it or not using it, it's a matter of how you use it and when you use it.
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On February 12 2013 22:05 Anomi wrote:
This is what I believe needs to be done and I don’t know why they are being so slow about it. Hellbat needs to be its own unit. It’s cool to have it transform from a hellion ect but it’s a 100 mineral units and there are limitation set on that.
I would put the hellion in the category with marines,zelots and lings and we all know all these units with upgrades as speed,charge,stim,combat shield, adrenal glans makes them more effective but they can still fight other mineral units without being one sided. It really doesn’t make sense having a mineral unit that hard counters every other mineral unit in the game and have aoe attack for 100 minerals with the only drawback of being slow.
Blizzard already removed so the blue flame upgrade so it doesn’t affect the hellion and also made it so u can build them directly in the factory. Its attack and hp is not even the same as the hellion itself. In every way possible it’s a different unit but they still refuse to separate it from the hellion and in that sense they can’t change the cost for it since that would nerf the hellion.
Some people might say that the hellion transformation falls in the line of the mech units where we have Vikings, siege tank and thors that can switch between different mods. One thing to keep in mind is all of the other mech units are also gas based and not only mineral as the hellion. Also the transformation changes doesn’t completely change the unit. The siege tank may get splash when in siege mode but with the offset of being immobile and shooting slower. The siege tank don’t get a hp boost on its life and then a extra ability on top of that when being in siege mode and it even cost more minerals and gas then a battle hellion. Now look at the hellion that only is a mineral unit on what I get from its transformation ability.
My opinion what needs to happen is to make it own unit that can be build after armory and add a slight gas cost on it or a increase in mineral cost. As long as its connected to the hellion it can’t be too strong . After that is done I rather se a another transformation ability on the battle hellion and since the mineral cost and gas cost can be tweaked now when it’s not connected to the hellion we have less limitation on it. For instance it could transform to a ground unit that is immobile with single target air unit (missle turret) or maybe even a sc1 goliath. You could add a haywire missile ability or maybe transform it to warhound like unit. I would like to se a mode thet supports bio and that could be as the battle hellion in its current form and a mode that supports mech.There are allot of possibilities I just wish they could do this change and play around with what to do before beta ends
I agree, especially that it seems illogical to make a mineral only unit that hard counters the other races mineral only units. And if the only drawback is being slow, that is partially negated by letting it transform into hellions. In all ways, it seems like they should be different units. I bet Blizzard hopes it works out because if Zerg or Protoss invest heavily in air, the Terran will not have a marine count to fall back on if they are going mostly hellbats. Well maybe this will work, but only Zerg can generate an air army quickly. Protoss does it through a very slow process, so Terran will not be caught by surprise. Does Blizzard assume or want Protoss to open air and always go air against Terran in HotS?
It really seems like these units are too good. I'm not at all surprised of everybody complaining about them as the current HotS beta plays.
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10 Drone scout (1)
15 Hatch
16 Gas (2)
16 Pool
17 Overlord
17 Drone
18 Zergling (scout, 3)
19 Zergling
20-21 Queen (4)
21-23 Queen
24 Overlord
25-36 Drone
30 Gas at natural (5)
36 Roach Warren
36 x 3 Overlords
Produce roaches until out of gas/minerals (Usually get 10)
If they went straight Hell Bat drop then you are busting down that door and crippling his economy. If he proceeds to attack your main base then transfer drones, split into two group; one goes on right side path & one on left. Key is to drop two spines in the opposite of the base he's attempting to go after. The two queens and two spines will be more then enough to hold off until a few roaches spawn to take care of this.
1) Scout for gas. If you spot gas then you are most likely witnessing Hellbats in some form. Continue build.
2) 16 Gas is so you can gather up a lot to produce 10+roaches
3) Scout with this zergling. Make sure you spot that they haven't expanded or misread the build. Place 1 ling in natural mineral line if no expansion down there.
4) Drop a creep tumor to "link" creep spread in-between natural & main base. Allows the queen to tank some damage during drone transfer.
5) Gas at natural is for the extra boost of gas for more roaches. Also, if you are forced to leave one base then you are still mining gas for roaches(needed for hellbats)
My transition out of this has been.
Start Lair upon leaving base with roaches (Next 100 gas)
Grab both gases that you don't currently have.
Throw down Spire and make 10 Mutalisks (he'll probably grab tanks for roaches)
Expand to grab more gas
After you see the very first Thor then I throw down Infestation Pit
Hive Tech
Viper/Roach/Hydra
I post the transition because it's not an All-in defending this one build order (Hellbat drop). I went from being destroyed by Hellbats to manging every Terran game.
(I'm sure this build had been made by someone else so I do not take any credit for this)
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On February 14 2013 05:27 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 05:04 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont get why the medivacs just arbitrarily have the speed boost. Its retarded game design if you ask me. Its the same principal as warp gate research- theres no reason to not use it. It lends itself to mindless play and lack of variety in the games.
The hellbats drops are just symptoms indicating a bigger problem. I disagree. Having the speed boost makes for more dynamic drop play. It's not a matter of using it or not using it, it's a matter of how you use it and when you use it.
I guess, but you could say the same thing for stim, blink, burrow, etc. its the fact that its not an upgrade that bothers me, i feel like it shouldnt just be there for someone to use whenever (especially given how weve seen how strong it is)
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On February 14 2013 06:13 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 05:27 JDub wrote:On February 14 2013 05:04 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont get why the medivacs just arbitrarily have the speed boost. Its retarded game design if you ask me. Its the same principal as warp gate research- theres no reason to not use it. It lends itself to mindless play and lack of variety in the games.
The hellbats drops are just symptoms indicating a bigger problem. I disagree. Having the speed boost makes for more dynamic drop play. It's not a matter of using it or not using it, it's a matter of how you use it and when you use it. I guess, but you could say the same thing for stim, blink, burrow, etc. its the fact that its not an upgrade that bothers me, i feel like it shouldnt just be there for someone to use whenever (especially given how weve seen how strong it is)
I do agree with that. I think having the boosters be part of the caduceus reactor upgrade, for example, would make a lot of sense.
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On February 14 2013 06:17 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:13 Aveng3r wrote:On February 14 2013 05:27 JDub wrote:On February 14 2013 05:04 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont get why the medivacs just arbitrarily have the speed boost. Its retarded game design if you ask me. Its the same principal as warp gate research- theres no reason to not use it. It lends itself to mindless play and lack of variety in the games.
The hellbats drops are just symptoms indicating a bigger problem. I disagree. Having the speed boost makes for more dynamic drop play. It's not a matter of using it or not using it, it's a matter of how you use it and when you use it. I guess, but you could say the same thing for stim, blink, burrow, etc. its the fact that its not an upgrade that bothers me, i feel like it shouldnt just be there for someone to use whenever (especially given how weve seen how strong it is) I do agree with that. I think having the boosters be part of the caduceus reactor upgrade, for example, would make a lot of sense.
exactly
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On February 14 2013 06:17 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 06:13 Aveng3r wrote:On February 14 2013 05:27 JDub wrote:On February 14 2013 05:04 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont get why the medivacs just arbitrarily have the speed boost. Its retarded game design if you ask me. Its the same principal as warp gate research- theres no reason to not use it. It lends itself to mindless play and lack of variety in the games.
The hellbats drops are just symptoms indicating a bigger problem. I disagree. Having the speed boost makes for more dynamic drop play. It's not a matter of using it or not using it, it's a matter of how you use it and when you use it. I guess, but you could say the same thing for stim, blink, burrow, etc. its the fact that its not an upgrade that bothers me, i feel like it shouldnt just be there for someone to use whenever (especially given how weve seen how strong it is) I do agree with that. I think having the boosters be part of the caduceus reactor upgrade, for example, would make a lot of sense.
Indeed. There is a reason protoss has to spend 100M and 100G for the warp prism speed upgrade (that's beside the robotics bay cost interms of time and resources) to speed up their warp prism. Fast dropships are not things you can just give that early especially if you're giving it for free. That said, drop play is really something interesting and we don't want to make these upgrades too expensive (the protoss one is really too expensive given that you have to build a robotic bay and when you do that you really wanna utilize your "robo bay" 200M and 200G investment with something other than warp prism speed.)
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The thing is terran really relies on doing damage to be able to compete in the late game and one of the big problems of WOL was that drop play became more and more ineffective as people got better at dealing with it and developed safe strategies especially against Zerg it became useless to drop since they could afford to spend minerals on spines and spores and often your drop would just get fungaled anyway. I think with Protoss getting more agressive tools in the cheaper dark shrine and the oracle and two very powerful defensive abilities with Planetary Nexus and Mass Recall. I think terran really needs something like the speed buff to keep up. Making it an upgrade would really feel bland since you would have to get a techlab just for that while you would actually want to pump double medivacs from a reactored starport instead. Maybe the cooldown is too low or the speed buff a bit too big but please don't make this ability an upgrade.
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On February 14 2013 05:27 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 05:04 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont get why the medivacs just arbitrarily have the speed boost. Its retarded game design if you ask me. Its the same principal as warp gate research- theres no reason to not use it. It lends itself to mindless play and lack of variety in the games.
The hellbats drops are just symptoms indicating a bigger problem. I disagree. Having the speed boost makes for more dynamic drop play. It's not a matter of using it or not using it, it's a matter of how you use it and when you use it.
You use it when it's up. Where is the dynamic in that ? There is no trade-off... There is no reason to not use it. There should be energy cost for the boost or it should be upgrade.
About the hellbat. I think that blizzard made huge mistake with that unit. It is meant to be tankier, slower version of the hellion and it kinda is, but the problem here is its damage. Right now its tankier , slower and dealing more damage version of the hellion which is wrong concept in my opinion. The tanky units are meant to take the damage and they should do less dmg than the fast, agile units that are the true damage dealers. Otherwise we have this situation where you drop 4 hellbats in the worker line and nothing can kill them before the workers are dead, or 5 hellbats killing infinite amount of zerglings etc, etc.
To fix that problem I think blizzard should do 2 things. Lower the dmg of the hellbat, raise the dmg of the siege tanks(or just make it 50 flat). In this case we will have hellbats tanking dmg, while the true damage dealers are killing stuff.
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Its changed. Literally between games for me. Its now 2 hellbats per medivac. A good change in all honesty.
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EPT
