EPTThat and move some +light damage to blue flame hellbat upgrade.
Blizz discussing Hellbats taking 4 cargo spaces - Page 17
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drkcid
Spain196 Posts
That and move some +light damage to blue flame hellbat upgrade. | ||
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
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TheOnlyRedViper
Norway20 Posts
On February 13 2013 22:17 llIH wrote: It's not that hard to counter. When I play zerg I win the game if he goes for a fast hellbat drop. Queens and roaches + 1spore +1 spine at mineral line. You can blindly prepare for everything, and if he doesn't do it your behind. On most maps it is hard to scout the armory in time or at all with overlords. The interesting thing is WHAT triggers your response. I have started doing 9 drone scout on most maps vs terran, if I scout gas I like to do a roach ling attack. It works wonders vs most gas first builds. Much better than blindly getting spines and spores. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On February 13 2013 22:46 TheOnlyRedViper wrote: You can blindly prepare for everything, and if he doesn't do it your behind. On most maps it is hard to scout the armory in time or at all with overlords. The interesting thing is WHAT triggers your response. I have started doing 9 drone scout on most maps vs terran, if I scout gas I like to do a roach ling attack. It works wonders vs most gas first builds. Much better than blindly getting spines and spores. If this is the case, then the game is well balanced in in regards to hellbats. | ||
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DrAbuse
Germany209 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On February 13 2013 22:46 TheOnlyRedViper wrote: You can blindly prepare for everything, and if he doesn't do it your behind. On most maps it is hard to scout the armory in time or at all with overlords. The interesting thing is WHAT triggers your response. I have started doing 9 drone scout on most maps vs terran, if I scout gas I like to do a roach ling attack. It works wonders vs most gas first builds. Much better than blindly getting spines and spores. It's awful if Terran does hellion banshee on one base (which I sometimes do even in WoL, and not just me, MKP as well :D). But I think it's indeed good in current HotS metagame. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On February 13 2013 22:46 TheOnlyRedViper wrote: You can blindly prepare for everything, and if he doesn't do it your behind. On most maps it is hard to scout the armory in time or at all with overlords. The interesting thing is WHAT triggers your response. I have started doing 9 drone scout on most maps vs terran, if I scout gas I like to do a roach ling attack. It works wonders vs most gas first builds. Much better than blindly getting spines and spores. What is a terran going to do off of 1 base? You don't have to scout the armory to know what's up. The reaction to something like this is all but blind. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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TheOnlyRedViper
Norway20 Posts
On February 13 2013 23:16 Baum wrote: What is a terran going to do off of 1 base? You don't have to scout the armory to know what's up. The reaction to something like this is all but blind. If you have not scouted the gas he could still be doing a marine all in. If you scout the gas he can still be doing hellion expands. The terran player can also deny scouting of the factory with marines if he realy wants to. And if you see a gas and no factory, he all of a sudden have alot more options. If zerg is forced to react by building spines and spores just upon seeing an early gas , else they might flat out die to this, is a clear indicator by itself. Clearly a terran player can do more than a battle hellion all in off 1 gas. On most maps terrans can deny much overlord scouting as well. I am not saying it is imbalanced or anything yet tho. Just that the timing with the speed medivacs seem to be a bit strong. He will be able to catch up to your drones before they have arrived at your natural btw. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On February 14 2013 00:40 TheOnlyRedViper wrote: If you have not scouted the gas he could still be doing a marine all in. If you scout the gas he can still be doing hellion expands. The terran player can also deny scouting of the factory with marines if he realy wants to. And if you see a gas and no factory, he all of a sudden have alot more options. If zerg is forced to react by building spines and spores just upon seeing an early gas , else they might flat out die to this, is a clear indicator by itself. Clearly a terran player can do more than a battle hellion all in off 1 gas. On most maps terrans can deny much overlord scouting as well. I am not saying it is imbalanced or anything yet tho. Just that the timing with the speed medivacs seem to be a bit strong. He will be able to catch up to your drones before they have arrived at your natural btw. If you are not able to determine a hellion expand from a 1 base hellbat drop you are not trying hard enough. If you want to know sacrifice an overlord and you will know and on most maps you can actually have an overlord near both gases and the natural. | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On February 13 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote: It's awful if Terran does hellion banshee on one base (which I sometimes do even in WoL, and not just me, MKP as well :D). But I think it's indeed good in current HotS metagame. It seems it's the only real bread and butter in TvT wol. Doesn't work in any other match up  . I agree with hots, been using it alot versus zerg, and they seem to suddenly don't know how to defend it, or get caught completely off guard. It's ironic considering they no longer need evos to build spores.On February 14 2013 00:40 TheOnlyRedViper wrote: Show nested quote + If you have not scouted the gas he could still be doing a marine all in. If you scout the gas he can still be doing hellion expands. The terran player can also deny scouting of the factory with marines if he realy wants to. And if you see a gas and no factory, he all of a sudden have alot more options. If zerg is forced to react by building spines and spores just upon seeing an early gas , else they might flat out die to this, is a clear indicator by itself. Clearly a terran player can do more than a battle hellion all in off 1 gas. On most maps terrans can deny much overlord scouting as well. I am not saying it is imbalanced or anything yet tho. Just that the timing with the speed medivacs seem to be a bit strong. He will be able to catch up to your drones before they have arrived at your natural btw. That is a lot of 'ifs'. Also what you're describing (marine all ins with no gas) is also present in WoL and bears the same threat, Hots or not. You should be able to scout these things with your drone either way, or send a sacrificial overlord past 5-6 minute mark to confirm what is approaching. You do not have to build spores for no apparent reason and without confirmative scouting. In hots, you do not need an evo chamber to build spores, defense can be readied in 20 seconds. You also didn't mention queens as a part of the defense. A typical opening of 4 queens should give ample creep spread and AA defense, and are great for mid/late game injects and tranfuses. I don't know why it's not possible to 'scout' the terran when you can easily send 1 ling periodically to check if the natural has been saturated. Past 6 mins and you don't see a CC in the natural, you do not continue droning, you build defenses and start army production. Your issues sound like mechanical errors combined with poor map awareness. It's practically the same as scouting a protoss with no nexus after 5 minutes, you know there's an attack coming. I support the change to 4 cargo spaces per hellbat, however, players should always prepare at least a few roaches, and actually stutter the hellbats while focusing the medvac with queens. I mean if the T rushes Hellbats, they would have nothing else other than the initial drop and follow up hellbats with no real economy behind that. Defend the drop, you're ahead, build more roaches to cover your base and proceed to expand to a third. | ||
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Avalain
Canada308 Posts
On February 13 2013 23:05 DrAbuse wrote: So whenever I´m playing against or with a korean and try to wish them best of luck and that I won´t resort to the abusive strategy of hellbat-drops they answer something like "미국인인척하지마똥싸는개세야", does anyone know what this means? Google Translate tells me it means this: "Encase one Do not shit masquerading as American Seya". That must be what they mean. | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On February 14 2013 02:43 Avalain wrote: Google Translate tells me it means this: "Encase one Do not shit masquerading as American Seya". That must be what they mean. Yeah in layman terms, they're essentially BMing you in korean. Contrary to what you believe and see in Korean pros, most of the actual Korean players on Bnet aren't too polite to Americans or foreigners for that matter. You could say they're effectively racist towards people outside their own race, but this is a fact. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On February 14 2013 02:43 Avalain wrote: Google Translate tells me it means this: "Encase one Do not shit masquerading as American Seya". That must be what they mean. Now it all makes sense. | ||
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
On February 14 2013 02:57 Novacute wrote: Yeah in layman terms, they're essentially BMing you in korean. Contrary to what you believe and see in Korean pros, most of the actual Korean players on Bnet aren't too polite to Americans or foreigners for that matter. You could say they're effectively racist towards people outside their own race, but this is a fact. racist is a hard word when you step in my local football ground (euro football sorry US) and no one knows you better be a) a nice guy or b) got some serious skills when you walk in and talk shit "well i play fair trust me and i wish you best luck" ... man you´ll have a hard time better come armored just sayin | ||
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DrAbuse
Germany209 Posts
On February 14 2013 04:02 Nachtwind wrote: racist is a hard word when you step in my local football ground (euro football sorry US) and no one knows you better be a) a nice guy or b) got some serious skills when you walk in and talk shit "well i play fair trust me and i wish you best luck" ... man you´ll have a hard time better come armored just sayin Could someone put this through Google Translator, too? :D | ||
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
On February 14 2013 04:09 DrAbuse wrote: Could someone put this through Google Translator, too? :D Sry that you need google translator to understand common sense =( | ||
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SpeedyBozar
England56 Posts
On February 12 2013 02:45 Zelniq wrote: My problem with hellbats has never been the drops, though I do think the medivacs coming with the boost by default is a little much (as many have suggested, an upgrade makes more sense). I just think any unit that completely hard counters another one is poor design. It'd be different if there was micro that you could do to reduce the effectiveness (like marines vs banelings, split vs clumped).. but there's nothing like that for lings vs hellbats unfortunately, they just get dominated incredibly hard. At least with blue-flame hellions, if you surrounded them you could kill them all because their HP wasn't that high and their splash isn't as effective vs a ling surround, though still lose more in Units Lost tab. It's similar to how hydras vs colossus function..due to the way the colossus attack is designed, unit-splitting micro is ineffective, they're going to die no matter what you do. I much prefer the other directional line-attack, that lurkers had in BW. There if you A-moved your marines would all get melted as they run in, but if you split them up it drastically improved their effectiveness. A year ago, I'd really been hoping they'd rework the colossus in HotS. IMO it's the unit that holds back the Protoss matchups the most (once the colossus/army count gets high enough, it all but forces all races to go air, making the matchups very 1-dimensional and stale). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I don't want to have to make other units besides the zergling vs hellbats. You already want to make other units besides lings vs blue flame hellions for example, it's just at least they have some use vs them on creep. Lings vs hellbats however are almost useless, especially if they have a medivac. Yes, I completely agree. I just wanna point out the important idea this guy says. There should be no superhard counter in t1/t2 like lings vs hellbats. I just feel like there is not much use for the zerglings in the game anymore. And once some mines get burrowed, lings cannot move or they all risk blowing up. So it is either pointless to make lings because they don't move or it is frustrating because you have to be careful not to meet a mine or a hellbat. The first very important change that should be done is: The ability of widow mine should be in style of seeker missile. It selects a target, waits 5 seconds and then shoots. So you have a chance to decrease the damage if you are good enough. Same as with seeker missile. Raven is more expensive but mobile. Widow mine is immobile but cheaper. ------- OR Alternative solution. ------- Widow mines cannot burrow on creep. If the creep gets over the mine, the mine cannot be activated. This will force terran to be a little bit more active to gain map control and it will at least stop the zerg's frustration and fear when he is moving on creep. Generally, burrowing mines on creep? Come on it doesn't make any sense.  The second change. A hellion transforming into a hellbat and suddenly being biological? What the hell! It doesn't make any sense. Do you always pump a soul into a machine when it is transforming? How can a medivac heal a machine? My brain is frozen on this one. | ||
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snively
United States1159 Posts
probably because i dont play terran but i really do think hellbat drops are too strong | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
The hellbats drops are just symptoms indicating a bigger problem. | ||
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