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On February 13 2013 04:19 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 04:11 awesomoecalypse wrote:On February 13 2013 03:21 Defacer wrote:On February 13 2013 02:51 Plansix wrote:
My god, what the crap are you talking about. Who questions the unit labeling in the game and why specific units are psionic or not? Every single game that is out there has these weird tags on them. League of Legends, BW, DotA and even Magic: the Gathering have tags that define their units and abilities that are more or less effective based on those tags. That is not going to change, ever. As long as the lasers light stuff on fire and the missles explode, people will get a grasp on the game.
Wow, you really live in a bubble, don't you? All those games you mentioned --League of Legends, BW, DotA and Magic the Gathering -- you know they're only for die-hard nerds, right? That they're so mired in lore and gimmick abilities and niche units, only nerds have the patience to give a shit? The average person -- even one that might be interested in watching competitive gaming -- could give two shits about them? If this is the best RTS can do in terms of actual design, I'm out. It's too inscrutable and far up it's own ass. Lazy design. With increasingly small-minded defenders. You literally just named the most successful competitive games in modern history. Yea I don't know what hes on about. If he doesn't want the game to have a large fanbase with die-hard fans why is he even into gaming or posting on this forum... Back on point though. The debate about "unit labels" is completely useless, the only significance is how it affects balance.
Considering "labels" are used in every board game, card game, RPG, RTS, and other game as ways to easily set units, abilities and resources apart. It is one of the dumbest arguments people make on TL in their "lazy design arguments".
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e ensure Terrans and Protoss are confined to a single precautionary defensive build order (like Zerg are now versus HBD)?
People want these builds left in, and then complain when their race's late game is left weak because the bullshit early wins and no extra early losses distort Blizzard's balance stats.[/QUOTE]
If you've been paying attention to the Patches, you can see thatBlizzard is going with the flow of the community. Zergs are given three massive boosts to early detection in HotS to compliment the current metagame of expand early and fast:
A) removed Evo requirement for spore crawler
B) Overseer at Lair
C) Overlord speed at Lair
Zerg also have the option to have the fastest land unit available before 6 min.
And yet... Seriously guys...[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what point you're making. In all honesty I don't know if the build is broken or not - what I disagree with is the idea that ALMOST broken builds make for a livelier game. 4gate PvP was almost broken; did that make PvP a hotbed of innovation? No: it stifled it completely.
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On February 12 2013 02:21 Fencar wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7894179582Show nested quote +We're hearing your feedback on Hellbat drops being overpowered. We've also been watching all the tournament games and as many highest level pro streams as possible.
They're really powerful, but we're still seeing a lot of players who really haven't had the time to learn to deal with them yet.
For example, in last week's MLG qualifier matches, a top end korean Zerg player lost 3 of 4 matches just to Hellbat drops. However, in this specific series, we were definitely seeing flaws in play. The Zerg player had roaches in 1 single ball and moved to defend vs. each dropship coming into multiple locations. Against this type of Zerg defense, just the normal Marine drops would have done just as much damage.
If a nerf is needed, we'd probably increase the cargo space on Hellbats to 4 so that we can only affect this specific scenario. We'll do our best to determine what's correct for this strategy, but please remember we're looking into every major community concern and carefully analyzing them. I feel like they're not looking very closely at how the Hellbat affects TvT Mech vs Bio, which I elaborate on in post #4 in the thread. At the same time, I think this will address the problem of extremely strong Hellbat drops though, while if you want to do a Hellbat/MM drop you can drop them in Hellion mode and then transform as the Zerg starts to respond. I think that this is a good first step towards making the Hellbat a balanced unit, after they made it overpowered. Assuming they make the change, of course.
I don't think that cargo space solves the problem, Medivacs can still unload 4 Hellions and transform them into Battle Hellions in order to circumvent the supply cap. The real problem is that building a Reactor and an Armory is far more cost efficient than building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniter, there is something very wrong with only researching Drilling Claws at the Tech Lab in HOTS compared to researching Siege Tech and Infernal Pre-Igniter in WoL. The cost efficiency and the relative utility of the Armory is way too high IMO.
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On February 13 2013 05:07 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 02:21 Fencar wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7894179582We're hearing your feedback on Hellbat drops being overpowered. We've also been watching all the tournament games and as many highest level pro streams as possible.
They're really powerful, but we're still seeing a lot of players who really haven't had the time to learn to deal with them yet.
For example, in last week's MLG qualifier matches, a top end korean Zerg player lost 3 of 4 matches just to Hellbat drops. However, in this specific series, we were definitely seeing flaws in play. The Zerg player had roaches in 1 single ball and moved to defend vs. each dropship coming into multiple locations. Against this type of Zerg defense, just the normal Marine drops would have done just as much damage.
If a nerf is needed, we'd probably increase the cargo space on Hellbats to 4 so that we can only affect this specific scenario. We'll do our best to determine what's correct for this strategy, but please remember we're looking into every major community concern and carefully analyzing them. I feel like they're not looking very closely at how the Hellbat affects TvT Mech vs Bio, which I elaborate on in post #4 in the thread. At the same time, I think this will address the problem of extremely strong Hellbat drops though, while if you want to do a Hellbat/MM drop you can drop them in Hellion mode and then transform as the Zerg starts to respond. I think that this is a good first step towards making the Hellbat a balanced unit, after they made it overpowered. Assuming they make the change, of course. I don't think that cargo space solves the problem, Medivacs can still unload 4 Hellions and transform them into Battle Hellions in order to circumvent the supply cap. The real problem is that building a Reactor and an Armory is far more cost efficient than building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniter, there is something very wrong with only researching Drilling Claws at the Tech Lab in HOTS compared to researching Siege Tech and Infernal Pre-Igniter in WoL. The cost efficiency and the relative utility of the Armory is way too high IMO.
That takes a lot of extra time and you can't drop nearly as many Hellbats right on top of the enemy workers, plus you have a chance to kill one or even two of the Hellions before they turn into Hellbats.
The stats on the Hellbat itself are still OP, but this is a very solid nerf to Hellbat drops, letting them keep Hellbat stats relatively similar to how good they are right now.
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On February 13 2013 05:09 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 05:07 MoonCricket wrote:On February 12 2013 02:21 Fencar wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7894179582We're hearing your feedback on Hellbat drops being overpowered. We've also been watching all the tournament games and as many highest level pro streams as possible.
They're really powerful, but we're still seeing a lot of players who really haven't had the time to learn to deal with them yet.
For example, in last week's MLG qualifier matches, a top end korean Zerg player lost 3 of 4 matches just to Hellbat drops. However, in this specific series, we were definitely seeing flaws in play. The Zerg player had roaches in 1 single ball and moved to defend vs. each dropship coming into multiple locations. Against this type of Zerg defense, just the normal Marine drops would have done just as much damage.
If a nerf is needed, we'd probably increase the cargo space on Hellbats to 4 so that we can only affect this specific scenario. We'll do our best to determine what's correct for this strategy, but please remember we're looking into every major community concern and carefully analyzing them. I feel like they're not looking very closely at how the Hellbat affects TvT Mech vs Bio, which I elaborate on in post #4 in the thread. At the same time, I think this will address the problem of extremely strong Hellbat drops though, while if you want to do a Hellbat/MM drop you can drop them in Hellion mode and then transform as the Zerg starts to respond. I think that this is a good first step towards making the Hellbat a balanced unit, after they made it overpowered. Assuming they make the change, of course. I don't think that cargo space solves the problem, Medivacs can still unload 4 Hellions and transform them into Battle Hellions in order to circumvent the supply cap. The real problem is that building a Reactor and an Armory is far more cost efficient than building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniter, there is something very wrong with only researching Drilling Claws at the Tech Lab in HOTS compared to researching Siege Tech and Infernal Pre-Igniter in WoL. The cost efficiency and the relative utility of the Armory is way too high IMO. That takes a lot of extra time and you can't drop nearly as many Hellbats right on top of the enemy workers, plus you have a chance to kill one or even two of the Hellions before they turn into Hellbats. The stats on the Hellbat itself are still OP, but this is a very solid nerf to Hellbat drops, letting them keep Hellbat stats relatively similar to how good they are right now.
I also want to add that it essentially removes the OP part, which is the pick-up and redrop on escaping units.
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I have been playing in the BETA almost whole time it has been available. The first time someone tried battle helion dropping me I did the same thing I do to any drop. I selected my drones and moved them to another base. I can drop tons of replays where I easily avoid any damage from them. If you have good overlord placement you can see medivacs coming from a mile away. When the game has gone on too long to see everything you need to add static defense. It is not hard to avoid this. I am only diamond and i have no problem dodging these harrasments. Stim marines are much much scarier or quick widow mines before I get any mobile detections.
Stop bitching you noobs and try to figure out how to have better map awareness and you will be happy when you see a medivac coming because its a win for you.
Pathetic how much people think whining will make Blizzard change the game for them so they don't have to get used to this new harrassment.
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On February 13 2013 05:27 Niska wrote:
I have been playing in the BETA almost whole time it has been available. The first time someone tried battle helion dropping me I did the same thing I do to any drop. I selected my drones and moved them to another base. I can drop tons of replays where I easily avoid any damage from them. If you have good overlord placement you can see medivacs coming from a mile away. When the game has gone on too long to see everything you need to add static defense. It is not hard to avoid this. I am only diamond and i have no problem dodging these harrasments. Stim marines are much much scarier or quick widow mines before I get any mobile detections.
Stop bitching you noobs and try to figure out how to have better map awareness and you will be happy when you see a medivac coming because its a win for you.
Pathetic how much people think whining will make Blizzard change the game for them so they don't have to get used to this new harrassment.
lol that's the reason hellbat drops are so strong btw is because even when you pull drones when you see the medivac coming a mile away the medivac is so fast it drops on top of your pulled drones. Now you are diamond so this is probably why you have never had this happen to you, but at a little bit higher level of play you will notice pulling your drones doesn't mean they won't die when the medivac hits speed and lands on top of them as they are running away ^_^.
So in short at least know what people are complaining about specifically before you make a stupid post showing you have no idea what you are talking about.
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I disagree Blade.. I play very good people in HOTS including masters. I have seen you play and you are by no means a pro. Better than me but not a pro. I'm not saying its perfect but people are saying helions in their mineral line.. pull your drones.. fine the drop ship chases your drones? Slipt them.. There are many ways to deal with them and if the Terran is 1basing you, you should be able to replace any drones if you make the right decisions within 2 larva injects.
I have also seen many zergs do fine agasint great players like Dragon, MillForGG..
Do you think it is OP? If so please show me a replay where you had no option to defend. I believe it won't exist.
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On February 13 2013 05:43 Niska wrote:
I disagree Blade.. I play very good people in HOTS including masters. I have seen you play and you are by no means a pro. Better than me but not a pro. I'm not saying its perfect but people are saying helions in their mineral line.. pull your drones.. fine the drop ship chases your drones? Slipt them.. There are many ways to deal with them and if the Terran is 1basing you, you should be able to replace any drones if you make the right decisions within 2 larva injects.
I have also seen many zergs do fine agasint great players like Dragon, MillForGG..
Do you think it is OP? If so please show me a replay where you had no option to defend. I believe it won't exist.
You can split, but even in TvT it's like fighting ranged Banelings which don't suicide when they attack, and you can keep dropping them over and over and over.
Seriously, you don't want to fight ranged Banelings.
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So your telling me I can't split? It just is not possible? that is your expert observation? Well I disagree. Splitting works very well. While they are dropping up and down all over I have 3 queens shooting the medivac, I have my forces splitting up to deal with it. I played a game TODAY where after the intial harrass I just left banelings at my bases. It worked wonderfully.
I am not saying im a pro but you guys are arguing to argue.Give me some facts some real situations where you had no choice to defend. Your just blowing smoke up your asses right now.
I will gladly posts my replays of this happpening and you can comment on that. Please the do the same and give me something.
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On February 13 2013 05:39 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 05:27 Niska wrote:
I have been playing in the BETA almost whole time it has been available. The first time someone tried battle helion dropping me I did the same thing I do to any drop. I selected my drones and moved them to another base. I can drop tons of replays where I easily avoid any damage from them. If you have good overlord placement you can see medivacs coming from a mile away. When the game has gone on too long to see everything you need to add static defense. It is not hard to avoid this. I am only diamond and i have no problem dodging these harrasments. Stim marines are much much scarier or quick widow mines before I get any mobile detections.
Stop bitching you noobs and try to figure out how to have better map awareness and you will be happy when you see a medivac coming because its a win for you.
Pathetic how much people think whining will make Blizzard change the game for them so they don't have to get used to this new harrassment. lol that's the reason hellbat drops are so strong btw is because even when you pull drones when you see the medivac coming a mile away the medivac is so fast it drops on top of your pulled drones. Now you are diamond so this is probably why you have never had this happen to you, but at a little bit higher level of play you will notice pulling your drones doesn't mean they won't die when the medivac hits speed and lands on top of them as they are running away ^_^. So in short at least know what people are complaining about specifically before you make a stupid post showing you have no idea what you are talking about.
I love Hellbats in late game situations to stop ling run-bys and mass Zealot warp prism play. That being said, since Hellbats are Bio-Mechanical, what if Blizzard designed a change that restricted Medivacs to boost with ONLY Bio units.
This means Bio-Mechanical or any other Mech would essentially be "too-heavy" to boost, giving you more time to react, etc.
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On February 13 2013 05:52 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 05:39 blade55555 wrote:On February 13 2013 05:27 Niska wrote:
I have been playing in the BETA almost whole time it has been available. The first time someone tried battle helion dropping me I did the same thing I do to any drop. I selected my drones and moved them to another base. I can drop tons of replays where I easily avoid any damage from them. If you have good overlord placement you can see medivacs coming from a mile away. When the game has gone on too long to see everything you need to add static defense. It is not hard to avoid this. I am only diamond and i have no problem dodging these harrasments. Stim marines are much much scarier or quick widow mines before I get any mobile detections.
Stop bitching you noobs and try to figure out how to have better map awareness and you will be happy when you see a medivac coming because its a win for you.
Pathetic how much people think whining will make Blizzard change the game for them so they don't have to get used to this new harrassment. lol that's the reason hellbat drops are so strong btw is because even when you pull drones when you see the medivac coming a mile away the medivac is so fast it drops on top of your pulled drones. Now you are diamond so this is probably why you have never had this happen to you, but at a little bit higher level of play you will notice pulling your drones doesn't mean they won't die when the medivac hits speed and lands on top of them as they are running away ^_^. So in short at least know what people are complaining about specifically before you make a stupid post showing you have no idea what you are talking about. I love Hellbats in late game situations to stop ling run-bys and mass Zealot warp prism play. That being said, since Hellbats are Bio-Mechanical, what if Blizzard designed a change that restricted Medivacs to boost with ONLY Bio units. This means Bio-Mechanical or any other Mech would essentially be "too-heavy" to boost, giving you more time to react, etc.
I think that that's silly considering how Marauders are big guys in really heavy armored suits with grenades and stuff, while Hellions are unarmored buggies with a flamethrower on top.
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Well with this change early game hellbat drops are out of the equasion in my opinion. It's not worth it anymore to tech to starport and armory to just drop 2 hellbats. On the other hand hellbats will probably be used for frontal attacks rather than worker line harass a lot more often now. In tvt it will still be a problem to defend a hellbat elevator when expanding.
I am not sure if this is the nerf that we need or the nerf that we deserve.
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I've only watched streams of HOTS, but it looks OP from what I've seen. It just decimates the mineral line and seem to take a lot to kill from the tier 1 units.
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On February 13 2013 06:01 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 05:52 Ctone23 wrote:On February 13 2013 05:39 blade55555 wrote:On February 13 2013 05:27 Niska wrote:
I have been playing in the BETA almost whole time it has been available. The first time someone tried battle helion dropping me I did the same thing I do to any drop. I selected my drones and moved them to another base. I can drop tons of replays where I easily avoid any damage from them. If you have good overlord placement you can see medivacs coming from a mile away. When the game has gone on too long to see everything you need to add static defense. It is not hard to avoid this. I am only diamond and i have no problem dodging these harrasments. Stim marines are much much scarier or quick widow mines before I get any mobile detections.
Stop bitching you noobs and try to figure out how to have better map awareness and you will be happy when you see a medivac coming because its a win for you.
Pathetic how much people think whining will make Blizzard change the game for them so they don't have to get used to this new harrassment. lol that's the reason hellbat drops are so strong btw is because even when you pull drones when you see the medivac coming a mile away the medivac is so fast it drops on top of your pulled drones. Now you are diamond so this is probably why you have never had this happen to you, but at a little bit higher level of play you will notice pulling your drones doesn't mean they won't die when the medivac hits speed and lands on top of them as they are running away ^_^. So in short at least know what people are complaining about specifically before you make a stupid post showing you have no idea what you are talking about. I love Hellbats in late game situations to stop ling run-bys and mass Zealot warp prism play. That being said, since Hellbats are Bio-Mechanical, what if Blizzard designed a change that restricted Medivacs to boost with ONLY Bio units. This means Bio-Mechanical or any other Mech would essentially be "too-heavy" to boost, giving you more time to react, etc. I think that that's silly considering how Marauders are big guys in really heavy armored suits with grenades and stuff, while Hellions are unarmored buggies with a flamethrower on top.
Yea, it is silly now that I think about it more.
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On February 13 2013 06:08 Baum wrote:
Well with this change early game hellbat drops are out of the equasion in my opinion. It's not worth it anymore to tech to starport and armory to just drop 2 hellbats. On the other hand hellbats will probably be used for frontal attacks rather than worker line harass a lot more often now. In tvt it will still be a problem to defend a hellbat elevator when expanding.
I am not sure if this is the nerf that we need or the nerf that we deserve. It's still a lot like a ranged Baneling which if you tech to it off of a 1 barracks FE you can still do a bit of damage while setting up your infrastructure to go Mech. It takes slightly more investment than hellion/banshee but considering the strength of the Hellbat, the fact that you have a Medivac that you can use for whatever you like, plus you can use Widow Mines to delay mining at the Zerg's third for X amount of time, I think it could still be very strong.
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[/QUOTE]
I think that that's silly considering how Marauders are big guys in really heavy armored suits with grenades and stuff, while Hellions are unarmored buggies with a flamethrower on top.[/QUOTE]
Yea, it is silly now that I think about it more.
[/QUOTE]
Why is this silly? You can't have a grenadier throwing from a moving car, it's too damm hard. Plus bomb people will tell you it's possible to blow themselves up, hence the heave armour of Marauders. Not sure how they can throw well with all the armour though. Maybe they are all former quarterbacks who can't do anything else like Tebow.
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Not sure how they can throw well with all the armour though. Maybe they are all former quarterbacks who can't do anything else like Tebow.
Marauders don't throw grenades; they propel them from launchers inside the arm component, similar to how the Firebat launches flames out its arms. Take a look at the unit model and artwork to see what I'm talking about.
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On February 13 2013 03:45 Maesy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 03:29 LightSpectra wrote:On February 13 2013 03:14 Plansix wrote:On February 13 2013 02:54 LightSpectra wrote:
I don't understand why NA Diamond players like David Kim are balancing the game. Blizzard should hire some semi-retired Korean gamer like Polt for balancing. Can't tell if you are being scarcastic or not. You do know that David Kim is ranked very highly as a Global player right? From the last report, which is a bit old, he was ranked top 500 world wide. That is a bit higher than diamond rank. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim I hate to break this to you, but that article is full of trolling. But I bet you really thought "David Kim was generally regarded as the best player in the beta, even though he did not participate in any tournaments" was genuine, didn't you? What the fuck are you talking about? David Kim was easily one of the best, if not the best player in WoL beta and then went on to make Grandmasters several times as random, even after the game was figured out, and got pretty high ranks at that.
It's because David Kim knows every strategic response or timing or micro/macro trick in the entire game. He helped design it, he knows how to identify exactly what it is you're doing and exactly how to kill it, even if the metagame currently doesn't.
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I think they should nerf hellbat damage a little bit, make them take up 2 space each in cargo, and maybe nerf the medivac speed.. just a little bit maybe, theres really no need for medivacs to be that fast!
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EPT
