|
With regards to the points made I think a simple few points I feel would work this is
1) This ones quite harsh but further post with regards what someone mentioned with using energy for the boost. To get that kinda speed maybe it should empty considerable amounts of energy, like a energy 'dump'. This would allow the drop to do two things
a) Quick speed into the base and then drop the hellbats but slow to get out
b) slow into the base and then can pick up and boost to get out.
A allows people a few more seconds for the drop, just like a hellion drop or marine/maurader drop but then gives players chance to snipe it as it flees. While B allows again, possible reaction time but allows a quicker exit
2) Definately agree whole heartedly that the Bio tag removed, its still a guy in a robot suit. Same as Viking transforms from land to air is 'a guy moving around the craft as it transforms' kinda thing from SC2 SP campaign notes.
3) The taking up space arguement is good as well, but dont bring up scale of things, nothing in the game is really in scale at all IMO period. Maybe allow them to keep the 4 if points 1 and 2 were used as a nerf as such.
4) Force an upgrade : Terran have alot of upgrades already but still is anoption on medicav for the boost.
I've watched many Pro streams and casters say, 'Meta game' stuff changes, tactics change, I'd say by April/May HoTS will be balanced regarding this Terran thing either balanced by nerf or by tactics. I still remember when it was 1base v 1base with zealots for walls with Gate-Core...things change as maps and skills allow.
|
On February 12 2013 23:27 gobbledydook wrote:
As Protoss, wouldn't opening Stargate and Phoenix shut down Hellion drops completely?
Maybe if you can catch the medivac when it leaves the terran base, otherwise phoenixes kill medivacs far too slowly.
|
On February 13 2013 00:08 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 23:27 gobbledydook wrote:
As Protoss, wouldn't opening Stargate and Phoenix shut down Hellion drops completely? Maybe if you can catch the medivac when it leaves the terran base, otherwise phoenixes kill medivacs far too slowly.
.... But if you have two phoenixes you can lift both hellbats, or hellions, and if you have more you can just straight up kill all of them?
|
On February 12 2013 23:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Without the devastating effect of hellbat drops (insert strike at 7min), THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE TO META.
THERE WILL NEVER BE A NEED TO LEAVE UNITS AS SPOTTERS.
Ok, but it's hardly fair to expect Terrans to keep the game entertaining for you all by themselves. What do you propose giving Zergs and Protoss that has an excellent chance of zeroing their opponent's economy at the 7 minute mark (barring impeccable spotting and micro) for a small investment and minimal risk of loss?
And since all things should be equitable on the receiving end, too, how might we ensure Terrans and Protoss are confined to a single precautionary defensive build order (like Zerg are now versus HBD)?
People want these builds left in, and then complain when their race's late game is left weak because the bullshit early wins and no extra early losses distort Blizzard's balance stats.
|
On February 12 2013 02:31 BlackPride wrote:
I agree. Blizzard knows better than anybody what to do. Quit whining and begging for nerfs.
I don't think they know better than anybody all the time. Like the Maps were so bad and it took what a year or two to get decent maps on the ladder?
|
On February 12 2013 15:53 Neverblink wrote:
I just played a game vs Terran that was using these drops.
I placed 3 Spine Crawlers & 2 Spores per Hatch. (3 Spines inside line, 2 Spores near gases).
My mineral line read 3/3 17/16 3/3 prior to attack.
He dropped with just 1 medivac & 4 Hellbats.
My defense: 3 Spines/2 Spores/1 Queen
My units lost: 2/3 12/16 3/3 (He killed 6 drones)
His units lost: 4 Hellbats
[snip]
About two minutes later he drops again but with 8 total hellbats.
My mineral line was slaughtered down to 4 drones with all static defenses in line still.
Zerg is now forced to incorporate Roach Warren into every build vs Terran, along with extreme measures of static defenses.
[snip]
I am zerg and I play the beta. Did you pull your drones as you saw the medivac approaching when your well placed overlords spotted the drop?
|
On February 13 2013 00:08 GeekAbaddon wrote:
4) Force an upgrade : Terran have alot of upgrades already but still is anoption on medicav for the boost.
.
I don't think it should be an upgrade but it should cost energy on the medivac to use the afterburners around 75 energy to use it, first of all it delays the drop with afterburners by 40 sec, so you get alot more time to react if they drop without it.
It also makes the medivac upgrade a lot stronger since it makes it's healing more energy efficient = more energy left over after fights = more drops.
It gives some counterplay for protoss and terrran with feedback and emp to stop medivac's from rushing into your base with afterburners after a fight if you feedback/emp them.
|
I can't believe people are complaining about this being removed because it's an "New exciting strategy". Really? Over half of a mineral dying before the alert even goes off is exciting? You must enjoy not earning your victories.
|
6038 Posts
On February 13 2013 01:39 Keldrome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 00:08 GeekAbaddon wrote:
4) Force an upgrade : Terran have alot of upgrades already but still is anoption on medicav for the boost.
. I don't think it should be an upgrade but it should cost energy on the medivac to use the afterburners around 75 energy to use it, first of all it delays the drop with afterburners by 40 sec, so you get alot more time to react if they drop without it. It also makes the medivac upgrade a lot stronger since it makes it's healing more energy efficient = more energy left over after fights = more drops. It gives some counterplay for protoss and terrran with feedback and emp to stop medivac's from rushing into your base with afterburners after a fight if you feedback/emp them.
This makes so much sense it will be silly if they don't do it.
Although I thought the same thing when people were suggesting snipe be nerfed against massive and instead they nerfed it so a ghost can't even kill a marine or baneling in one snipe shot.
|
On February 12 2013 20:19 doggy wrote:
While i generally like the idea of more cargo space for hellbats. Am i the only one who has concerns that such spezific buffs and nerfs (also like +15dmg for spores to bio) make the game even more complicated for new players and spectators?
I see why they do that, it makes balancing much more easy. But it seems like a double-edged sword to me
From a game design perspective, it's actually a very lazy solution to a very complicated problem. And it does sacrifice the games watchability and teachability.
The units, attributes and categories are getting increasingly niche and inconsistent. There is no internal logic; no way to visibly distinguish among the races and units what is mech, bio, light, massive or psionic, and what does bonus damage to-what.
Why is Hellion a biological unit in Hellbat form, but a Viking isn't when landed? Why can a landed Viking be picked up in a drop ship, but not go into a bunker like a Hellbat? Why do spores do bonus damage to biological air, and not light air? Does that mean they do bonus damage to Vipers? Or are Viper's psionic? Why are Ghost psionic, when they are obviously smaller and more frail than marines, which are light?
Of course a lot of snobs and "Masters" on this board seem to care less and less about good overall, consistent design and broadening the audience. Their ambivalence to these ad-hoc changes and Blizzards laziness pretty much guarantees that the audience for SC2 will always be limited to hardcore players and fans. But that's the direction that David Kim is taking SC2 with his band-aid approach to game balance and design.
|
On February 13 2013 01:57 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 01:39 Keldrome wrote:On February 13 2013 00:08 GeekAbaddon wrote:
4) Force an upgrade : Terran have alot of upgrades already but still is anoption on medicav for the boost.
. I don't think it should be an upgrade but it should cost energy on the medivac to use the afterburners around 75 energy to use it, first of all it delays the drop with afterburners by 40 sec, so you get alot more time to react if they drop without it. It also makes the medivac upgrade a lot stronger since it makes it's healing more energy efficient = more energy left over after fights = more drops. It gives some counterplay for protoss and terrran with feedback and emp to stop medivac's from rushing into your base with afterburners after a fight if you feedback/emp them. This makes so much sense it will be silly if they don't do it. Although I thought the same thing when people were suggesting snipe be nerfed against massive and instead they nerfed it so a ghost can't even kill a marine or baneling in one snipe shot.
It's probably because a boost with a fixed energy cost would be extremely awkward to use, considering that medivacs are constantly burning energy. Woops you accidentally healed 3 energy too much and couldn't escape with that drop, gg. You could argue that it increases the skill ceiling when you force terrans to keep an eye on medivac energy while microing 3 drops at once, but to me it seems like a bit much.
If you have to add a cost to the boost, make it so that the boost burns energy like normal healing does, maybe at an accelerated rate. That way medivacs with low energy might still get a few crucial seconds of boost, and there's less energy management required: just make sure theres a little purple left.
Still, I can understand why Blizzard is hesitant to do this. Medivacs are already quite demanding to use properly, adding more barriers for noobs would be pretty harsh.
|
On February 13 2013 02:13 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 01:57 Swords wrote:On February 13 2013 01:39 Keldrome wrote:On February 13 2013 00:08 GeekAbaddon wrote:
4) Force an upgrade : Terran have alot of upgrades already but still is anoption on medicav for the boost.
. I don't think it should be an upgrade but it should cost energy on the medivac to use the afterburners around 75 energy to use it, first of all it delays the drop with afterburners by 40 sec, so you get alot more time to react if they drop without it. It also makes the medivac upgrade a lot stronger since it makes it's healing more energy efficient = more energy left over after fights = more drops. It gives some counterplay for protoss and terrran with feedback and emp to stop medivac's from rushing into your base with afterburners after a fight if you feedback/emp them. This makes so much sense it will be silly if they don't do it. Although I thought the same thing when people were suggesting snipe be nerfed against massive and instead they nerfed it so a ghost can't even kill a marine or baneling in one snipe shot. It's probably because a boost with a fixed energy cost would be extremely awkward to use, considering that medivacs are constantly burning energy. Woops you accidentally healed 3 energy too much and couldn't escape with that drop, gg. You could argue that it increases the skill ceiling when you force terrans to keep an eye on medivac energy while microing 3 drops at once, but to me it seems like a bit much. If you have to add a cost to the boost, make it so that the boost burns energy like normal healing does, maybe at an accelerated rate. That way medivacs with low energy might still get a few crucial seconds of boost, and there's less energy management required: just make sure theres a little purple left. Still, I can understand why Blizzard is hesitant to do this. Medivacs are already quite demanding to use properly, adding more barriers for noobs would be pretty harsh.
While I agree a fixed cost wouldn't work out too well, a high rate drain could be very good, this would force players to have to want to commit to doing the boost or not. It would also make abusing the speed via positioning less of an issue because the medivac is not as big a threat offensively without energy.
As I've highlighted in your post. Have you played protoss in hots? If you want to talk about noob friendly, they have so many casters currently. Sentry MSC Templar Oracle. As a new player, microing 4 units spells is not easy by any means. So I don't feel that this is a good argument to make for nerfing medivacs. Not to mention how unforgiving the mismicro of those units is.
|
|
|
The level of whine is the community is too damn high! How can you guys complain about a unit being "overpowered" when the game is still far too young for anyone to know. I'm sorry zerg you can't make only drones until the 8 minute mark anymore, im sorry zerg you can't really on a mineral only unit for defence anymore. I think that using a 4 queen opening with 2 spines and a spore at each base can delay the first drop until you get roaches out.
To the guy saying "  I have to make a roach warren every zvt" it's 150 minerals, and you can probably get an OV scout to see if its factory tech or not so you don't have to commit to roaches blindly.
Yes the hellbat drop is strong but nerfing units into the ground makes the game boring and easy to play. I think that people need to realize that terran sacrifices a ton of resources to open up hellbat drop, and that investing heavily in defence won't set you behind... the terran just teched straight to goddamn armoury....
|
On February 13 2013 01:10 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 23:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Without the devastating effect of hellbat drops (insert strike at 7min), THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE TO META.
THERE WILL NEVER BE A NEED TO LEAVE UNITS AS SPOTTERS.
Ok, but it's hardly fair to expect Terrans to keep the game entertaining for you all by themselves. What do you propose giving Zergs and Protoss that has an excellent chance of zeroing their opponent's economy at the 7 minute mark (barring impeccable spotting and micro) for a small investment and minimal risk of loss? And since all things should be equitable on the receiving end, too, how might we ensure Terrans and Protoss are confined to a single precautionary defensive build order (like Zerg are now versus HBD)? People want these builds left in, and then complain when their race's late game is left weak because the bullshit early wins and no extra early losses distort Blizzard's balance stats.
Well, Blizzard 'fixed' early game TvZ in WoL but still left T3 Terran weak as shit. So It is hard for terrans to be understanding.
|
On February 13 2013 02:37 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 01:10 Umpteen wrote:On February 12 2013 23:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Without the devastating effect of hellbat drops (insert strike at 7min), THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE TO META.
THERE WILL NEVER BE A NEED TO LEAVE UNITS AS SPOTTERS.
Ok, but it's hardly fair to expect Terrans to keep the game entertaining for you all by themselves. What do you propose giving Zergs and Protoss that has an excellent chance of zeroing their opponent's economy at the 7 minute mark (barring impeccable spotting and micro) for a small investment and minimal risk of loss? And since all things should be equitable on the receiving end, too, how might we ensure Terrans and Protoss are confined to a single precautionary defensive build order (like Zerg are now versus HBD)? People want these builds left in, and then complain when their race's late game is left weak because the bullshit early wins and no extra early losses distort Blizzard's balance stats. Well, Blizzard 'fixed' early game TvZ in WoL but still left T3 Terran weak as shit. So It is hard for terrans to be understanding.
T3 Terran is not weak at all. It's just hard to get to that stage.
Try to play as Zerg to beat a Skyterran, it's damn near impossible to win.
|
On February 13 2013 01:54 Maesy wrote:
I can't believe people are complaining about this being removed because it's an "New exciting strategy". Really? Over half of a mineral dying before the alert even goes off is exciting? You must enjoy not earning your victories.
Yes, it's like Real Madrid football team scored 3 goals against Arsenal in the first 20min of the game, there's excitement because the pressure is great on Arsenal to make up the deficit.
Likewise if EVERY SC2 game plays out like the last twelve, folks will get bored, which is why everyone loves Manchester United, because they almost never play the same way twice.
|
On February 12 2013 15:53 Neverblink wrote:
I just played a game vs Terran that was using these drops.
I placed 3 Spine Crawlers & 2 Spores per Hatch. (3 Spines inside line, 2 Spores near gases).
My mineral line read 3/3 17/16 3/3 prior to attack.
He dropped with just 1 medivac & 4 Hellbats.
My defense: 3 Spines/2 Spores/1 Queen
My units lost: 2/3 12/16 3/3 (He killed 6 drones)
His units lost: 4 Hellbats
[snip]
About two minutes later he drops again but with 8 total hellbats.
My mineral line was slaughtered down to 4 drones with all static defenses in line still.
Zerg is now forced to incorporate Roach Warren into every build vs Terran, along with extreme measures of static defenses.
[snip]
LOL!!!
3 spines+2 spores=500 minerals.
Instead of this,you could do the RW(150min) and 5 Roaches(375 min 125 gas) makes total of 525 and 125 gas and he would lose the Hellbats without any drones killed.Is is really so difficult to understand that if enemy goes for a doom drop,you maybe need a doom counter strategy to stop it? He built early starport,medivac and even Armory to try this,why wouldnt you build RW and make 5 roaches per hatch???
BFH killed so many drones before the Nerf and Blizz had to do something.The moment they nerf it,Zerg also start to make Simcity with Spines,queens and evo chambers...WTF?? How much time do you need to realise you need roaches to stop this specific drop????
|
On February 13 2013 02:10 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 20:19 doggy wrote:
While i generally like the idea of more cargo space for hellbats. Am i the only one who has concerns that such spezific buffs and nerfs (also like +15dmg for spores to bio) make the game even more complicated for new players and spectators?
I see why they do that, it makes balancing much more easy. But it seems like a double-edged sword to me From a game design perspective, it's actually a very lazy solution to a very complicated problem. And it does sacrifice the games watchability and teachability. The units, attributes and categories are getting increasingly niche and inconsistent. There is no internal logic; no way to visibly distinguish among the races and units what is mech, bio, light, massive or psionic, and what does bonus damage to-what. Why is Hellion a biological unit in Hellbat form, but a Viking isn't when landed? Why can a landed Viking be picked up in a drop ship, but not go into a bunker like a Hellbat? Why do spores do bonus damage to biological air, and not light air? Does that mean they do bonus damage to Vipers? Or are Viper's psionic? Why are Ghost psionic, when they are obviously smaller and more frail than marines, which are light? Of course a lot of snobs and "Masters" on this board seem to care less and less about good overall, consistent design and broadening the audience. Their ambivalence to these ad-hoc changes and Blizzards laziness pretty much guarantees that the audience for SC2 will always be limited to hardcore players and fans. But that's the direction that David Kim is taking SC2 with his band-aid approach to game balance and design.
My god, what the crap are you talking about. Who questions the unit labeling in the game and why specific units are psionic or not? Every single game that is out there has these weird tags on them. League of Legends, BW, DotA and even Magic: the Gathering have tags that define their units and abilities that are more or less effective based on those tags. That is not going to change, ever. As long as the lasers light stuff on fire and the missles explode, people will get a grasp on the game.
Also, saying a balance change is lazy and then not backing that up with anything beyond a rant how Masters players and snobs will disagree with you does not make right. Also, can we stop calling balance changes "lazy"? It has become the go-to argument for people who just want to complain, but don't really want to back up their arguments with anything.
|
On February 13 2013 02:44 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 15:53 Neverblink wrote:
I just played a game vs Terran that was using these drops.
I placed 3 Spine Crawlers & 2 Spores per Hatch. (3 Spines inside line, 2 Spores near gases).
My mineral line read 3/3 17/16 3/3 prior to attack.
He dropped with just 1 medivac & 4 Hellbats.
My defense: 3 Spines/2 Spores/1 Queen
My units lost: 2/3 12/16 3/3 (He killed 6 drones)
His units lost: 4 Hellbats
[snip]
About two minutes later he drops again but with 8 total hellbats.
My mineral line was slaughtered down to 4 drones with all static defenses in line still.
Zerg is now forced to incorporate Roach Warren into every build vs Terran, along with extreme measures of static defenses.
[snip]
LOL!!! 3 spines+2 spores=500 minerals. Instead of this,you could do the RW(150min) and 5 Roaches(375 min 125 gas) makes total of 525 and 125 gas and he would lose the Hellbats without any drones killed.Is is really so difficult to understand that if enemy goes for a doom drop,you maybe need a doom counter strategy to stop it? He built early starport,medivac and even Armory to try this,why wouldnt you build RW and make 5 roaches per hatch??? BFH killed so many drones before the Nerf and Blizz had to do something.The moment they nerf it,Zerg also start to make Simcity with Spines,queens and evo chambers...WTF?? How much time do you need to realise you need roaches to stop this specific drop???? It takes nine Roach shots to take down one Hellbat, so it takes two seconds for five Roaches to kill one Hellbat. On paper this seems fine, however it is possible to drop a Hellbat then pick it right back up after it attacks, wasting a number of the Roach attacks while the Hellbat(s) take very little damage.
Also, four Hellbats beat five Roaches, especially well with this kind of micro, making focus firing to kill off the Hellbats faster and prevent healing impossible.
Another thing is that you can go for a Hellbat drop similar to how you can go Hellion/Banshee off of a 1 Barracks FE and be safe against most things due to the fact that you can easily start Banshees, Tanks, or Widow Mines using the Barracks to build the necessary add-on's.
Considering that you can then go for a two base Marauder/Hellbat all-in right after with +1 Mech armor instead of +1 attack on Bio or really any number of things after this timing, this is OP.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
