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On February 12 2013 07:32 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:29 Bagi wrote:On February 12 2013 07:21 Defacer wrote:
Catz just dropped a bunch of truth bombs on his stream about Hellbats.
He explained that hellbats are essentially 100 mineral, Gasless 'roaches' at tier 1 that can be healed by medivacs. And that in 2v2s, him and Drewbie essentially would just mass roaches and medivacs because they knew how ridiculously OP a timing it would be in the early mid-game
Giving Terrans hellbats is as broken an idea as giving Zerg dropships at tier 1. And Catz basically called bullshit on David Kim, saying anyone that doesn't recognize that should be fired from balancing the game. Ehh, what? I don't see anyone actually massing hellbats like they would mass roaches. The problem comes from medivac mobility combined with the splash for killing workers. Why would directly compare two units that are used in such radically different ways? They cannot be used like roaches, and never will be due to how terran production works. What Catz is saying is that if you gave Zerg dropships or made overlords heal, that would be PRECISELY how roaches would be used. And it would be undeniably broken.
Of course it would be broken since zerg can build insane amounts of roaches and overlords for much less effort. Apples and oranges.
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On February 12 2013 07:36 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:33 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2013 07:21 Defacer wrote:
Catz just dropped a bunch of truth bombs on his stream about Hellbats.
He explained that hellbats are essentially 100 mineral, Gasless 'roaches' at tier 1 that can be healed by medivacs. And that in 2v2s, him and Drewbie essentially would just mass roaches and medivacs because they knew how ridiculously OP a timing it would be in the early mid-game
Giving Terrans hellbats is as broken an idea as giving Zerg dropships at tier 1. And Catz basically called bullshit on David Kim, saying anyone that doesn't recognize that should be fired from balancing the game. I like how if CatZ says it, they become truth bombs. This is how facts are found folks, on semi-professional player's streams. I mean, this argument is one step above "It was on the TV, so it must be true". Actually, the argument is true because it's true. How can you possible rationailize a unit that is cheaper than a roach, does aoe splash, and is healable and droppable at tier1? Hell, why no make viking healable too? A medivac can already pick them up.
What the fuck is tier 1? Starport tech?
I can rationalize it just fine, as long as people can defend from it the unit is fine. A unit can be strong and still balanced as long as the counters exist. I'm not saying its 100% fine in its current state, but most likely will be once they nerf it so that medivacs can only hold 2 at a time.
It will still be dealing AOE, getting healed and will be droppable at "tier 1".
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All I will say is that this colossus vs lurker design discussion always makes me think the colossus would be awesome if it shot in a lurker style straight line. They would be so epic when used well and such a failure when used poorly ROFL.
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Can't you still drop helions and transform them as they land?
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On February 12 2013 04:04 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 03:02 Everlong wrote:On February 12 2013 02:48 Fencar wrote:On February 12 2013 02:45 Zelniq wrote:
My problem with hellbats has never been the drops, though I do think the medivacs coming with the boost by default is a little much (as many have suggested, an upgrade makes more sense).
I just think any unit that hard counters another one is poor design.
It'd be different if there was micro that you could do to reduce the effectiveness (like marines vs banelings, split vs clumped).. but there's nothing like that for lings vs hellbats unfortunately, they just get dominated incredibly hard. At least with blue-flame hellions, if you surrounded them you could kill them all, though still lose more in Units Lost tab, because their HP wasn't that high and their splash isn't as effective vs a ling surround.
It's similar to how hydras vs colossus function..due to the way the colossus attack is designed, unit-splitting micro is ineffective, they're going to die no matter what you do. I much prefer the other directional line-attack, that lurkers had in BW. There if you A-moved your marines would all get melted as they run in, but if you split them up it drastically improved their effectiveness.
A year ago, I'd really been hoping they'd rework the colossus in HotS. IMO it's the unit that holds back the Protoss matchups the most (once the colossus/army count gets high enough, it all but forces all races to go air, making the matchups very 1-dimensional and stale). I think that the biggest reason this is true is because of their large health pool, which I touch on in the post I mentioned in the OP. It lets Hellbats stay alive for so long that they just keep on firing versus the Zerglings even though they are doing tons of damage, it just isn't enough especially with Medivacs healing them. Hellbats are specifically designed for TvP mech. If you touch Hellbat as it is even slightly, it will ruin any attempt to mech TvP forever (Blizzard will not buff tank, period). I see in TvZ they hard counter lings, but you should not rely on lings TvZ against a mech players at all. I haven't seen them in not mech compositions I believe. For standard WoL TvZ you only do this Hellbat drop and this might get nerfed. So yeah, in HotS, your lings are less effective, but we gained whole new perspective in TvP. Not to mention, there is now similarly hard counter to Tanks as Immortal in Viper. I don't complain, it makes for beautiful interesting and action-packed game. Not touching the Siege Tank or other units related to Mech play is a dumb excuse for not nerfing a unit which is almost breaking a matchup and turning it into Mech vs Mech every game, IMO.
Wait, aren`t MEC fans suposed to love BW style always (MEC)siege line vs siege line TvT?
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On February 12 2013 07:50 naastyOne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 04:04 Fencar wrote:On February 12 2013 03:02 Everlong wrote:On February 12 2013 02:48 Fencar wrote:On February 12 2013 02:45 Zelniq wrote:
My problem with hellbats has never been the drops, though I do think the medivacs coming with the boost by default is a little much (as many have suggested, an upgrade makes more sense).
I just think any unit that hard counters another one is poor design.
It'd be different if there was micro that you could do to reduce the effectiveness (like marines vs banelings, split vs clumped).. but there's nothing like that for lings vs hellbats unfortunately, they just get dominated incredibly hard. At least with blue-flame hellions, if you surrounded them you could kill them all, though still lose more in Units Lost tab, because their HP wasn't that high and their splash isn't as effective vs a ling surround.
It's similar to how hydras vs colossus function..due to the way the colossus attack is designed, unit-splitting micro is ineffective, they're going to die no matter what you do. I much prefer the other directional line-attack, that lurkers had in BW. There if you A-moved your marines would all get melted as they run in, but if you split them up it drastically improved their effectiveness.
A year ago, I'd really been hoping they'd rework the colossus in HotS. IMO it's the unit that holds back the Protoss matchups the most (once the colossus/army count gets high enough, it all but forces all races to go air, making the matchups very 1-dimensional and stale). I think that the biggest reason this is true is because of their large health pool, which I touch on in the post I mentioned in the OP. It lets Hellbats stay alive for so long that they just keep on firing versus the Zerglings even though they are doing tons of damage, it just isn't enough especially with Medivacs healing them. Hellbats are specifically designed for TvP mech. If you touch Hellbat as it is even slightly, it will ruin any attempt to mech TvP forever (Blizzard will not buff tank, period). I see in TvZ they hard counter lings, but you should not rely on lings TvZ against a mech players at all. I haven't seen them in not mech compositions I believe. For standard WoL TvZ you only do this Hellbat drop and this might get nerfed. So yeah, in HotS, your lings are less effective, but we gained whole new perspective in TvP. Not to mention, there is now similarly hard counter to Tanks as Immortal in Viper. I don't complain, it makes for beautiful interesting and action-packed game. Not touching the Siege Tank or other units related to Mech play is a dumb excuse for not nerfing a unit which is almost breaking a matchup and turning it into Mech vs Mech every game, IMO. Wait, aren`t MEC fans suposed to love BW style always (MEC)siege line vs siege line TvT?
Well, TvT is already siege line across the map + marines all over the place in WoL (like in those games between Innovation and Taeja in the GSL), so I guess it's about equal anyways. As long as tanks remain the main unit and not some silly non-mech mech, it should all be fine and dandy as long as all protosses agree to stop expecting to win anything.
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To all the silly whiners in this thread, go be silly else where and stop bringing the quality of TL's forums down.
Hellbats are okay, I think its the medivac that is the real culprit here. You can just keep boosting all over the workers and dropping hellbats on top of them. On the other hand we don't want to nerf shit into the ground when we're still in beta. Making the Hellbat take more space seems like the best possible solution tbh. It would be infinitely harder to get even half the amount of kills.
To all the silly people saying silly things like hellbats kill roaches or stalkers or anything thats not light or melee... well you know what, micro more son, banes kill marines unless you micro and split them, now you'll have to actually micro against hellbats because they're a decent unit now. Unlike before they got their damaged buff and they would only kill lings (not even that good against zealots before).
TL;DR Stop silly whining, Hellbats are good, Blizzard's proposed solution is good.
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On February 12 2013 07:36 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:33 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2013 07:21 Defacer wrote:
Catz just dropped a bunch of truth bombs on his stream about Hellbats.
He explained that hellbats are essentially 100 mineral, Gasless 'roaches' at tier 1 that can be healed by medivacs. And that in 2v2s, him and Drewbie essentially would just mass roaches and medivacs because they knew how ridiculously OP a timing it would be in the early mid-game
Giving Terrans hellbats is as broken an idea as giving Zerg dropships at tier 1. And Catz basically called bullshit on David Kim, saying anyone that doesn't recognize that should be fired from balancing the game. I like how if CatZ says it, they become truth bombs. This is how facts are found folks, on semi-professional player's streams. I mean, this argument is one step above "It was on the TV, so it must be true". Actually, the argument is true because it's true. How can you possible rationailize a unit that is cheaper than a roach, does aoe splash, and is healable and droppable at tier1? Hell, why no make viking healable too? A medivac can already pick them up.
What? How can a strat that requires a unit from the factory (t2), that requires an armory (t2.5) and a starport (t3) considered tier 1?
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When I didn't have much experience with this site or with SC, I used to hope that Blizzard would read sites like these in order to gain feedback to balance their game. Anymore, I hope to god that they don't.
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On February 12 2013 08:03 Rowrin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:36 Defacer wrote:On February 12 2013 07:33 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2013 07:21 Defacer wrote:
Catz just dropped a bunch of truth bombs on his stream about Hellbats.
He explained that hellbats are essentially 100 mineral, Gasless 'roaches' at tier 1 that can be healed by medivacs. And that in 2v2s, him and Drewbie essentially would just mass roaches and medivacs because they knew how ridiculously OP a timing it would be in the early mid-game
Giving Terrans hellbats is as broken an idea as giving Zerg dropships at tier 1. And Catz basically called bullshit on David Kim, saying anyone that doesn't recognize that should be fired from balancing the game. I like how if CatZ says it, they become truth bombs. This is how facts are found folks, on semi-professional player's streams. I mean, this argument is one step above "It was on the TV, so it must be true". Actually, the argument is true because it's true. How can you possible rationailize a unit that is cheaper than a roach, does aoe splash, and is healable and droppable at tier1? Hell, why no make viking healable too? A medivac can already pick them up. What? How can a strat that requires a unit from the factory (t2), that requires an armory (t2.5) and a starport (t3) considered tier 1?
Because it's CatZ (and his fans). I don't think any of them would be disappointed if HotS being the Zerg expansion meant that was the only race being played.
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On February 12 2013 07:57 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:50 naastyOne wrote:On February 12 2013 04:04 Fencar wrote:On February 12 2013 03:02 Everlong wrote:On February 12 2013 02:48 Fencar wrote:On February 12 2013 02:45 Zelniq wrote:
My problem with hellbats has never been the drops, though I do think the medivacs coming with the boost by default is a little much (as many have suggested, an upgrade makes more sense).
I just think any unit that hard counters another one is poor design.
It'd be different if there was micro that you could do to reduce the effectiveness (like marines vs banelings, split vs clumped).. but there's nothing like that for lings vs hellbats unfortunately, they just get dominated incredibly hard. At least with blue-flame hellions, if you surrounded them you could kill them all, though still lose more in Units Lost tab, because their HP wasn't that high and their splash isn't as effective vs a ling surround.
It's similar to how hydras vs colossus function..due to the way the colossus attack is designed, unit-splitting micro is ineffective, they're going to die no matter what you do. I much prefer the other directional line-attack, that lurkers had in BW. There if you A-moved your marines would all get melted as they run in, but if you split them up it drastically improved their effectiveness.
A year ago, I'd really been hoping they'd rework the colossus in HotS. IMO it's the unit that holds back the Protoss matchups the most (once the colossus/army count gets high enough, it all but forces all races to go air, making the matchups very 1-dimensional and stale). I think that the biggest reason this is true is because of their large health pool, which I touch on in the post I mentioned in the OP. It lets Hellbats stay alive for so long that they just keep on firing versus the Zerglings even though they are doing tons of damage, it just isn't enough especially with Medivacs healing them. Hellbats are specifically designed for TvP mech. If you touch Hellbat as it is even slightly, it will ruin any attempt to mech TvP forever (Blizzard will not buff tank, period). I see in TvZ they hard counter lings, but you should not rely on lings TvZ against a mech players at all. I haven't seen them in not mech compositions I believe. For standard WoL TvZ you only do this Hellbat drop and this might get nerfed. So yeah, in HotS, your lings are less effective, but we gained whole new perspective in TvP. Not to mention, there is now similarly hard counter to Tanks as Immortal in Viper. I don't complain, it makes for beautiful interesting and action-packed game. Not touching the Siege Tank or other units related to Mech play is a dumb excuse for not nerfing a unit which is almost breaking a matchup and turning it into Mech vs Mech every game, IMO. Wait, aren`t MEC fans suposed to love BW style always (MEC)siege line vs siege line TvT? Well, TvT is already siege line across the map + marines all over the place in WoL (like in those games between Innovation and Taeja in the GSL), so I guess it's about equal anyways. As long as tanks remain the main unit and not some silly non-mech mech, it should all be fine and dandy as long as all protosses agree to stop expecting to win anything.
The "Mech" mech, the "non-mech" mech, why all the sillines in name, while you can just call it siege tank teran, nice and clear.
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As long as i watch (through the replays/casters) more and more HOTS games i get more and more to conclusion: Players don't give a shit about defense.
That's it.
Greedy zergs are only concerning about more and more expansions. No spines, no spores. Nothing.
And then all these whiners come across the forums, with their tears, and yell about something being overpowered. I can't believe blizzard is listening to it...
If they are about to nerf helions drop this game doesn't worth a dime. Because in the end we'll get the same everything's_nerfed_WOL_crap with just Bio vs infestors vs 4gate.
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On February 12 2013 08:22 Calm_down wrote:
As long as i watch (through the replays/casters) more and more HOTS games i get more and more to conclusion: Players don't give a shit about defense.
That's it.
Greedy zergs are only concerning about more and more expansions. No spines, no spores. Nothing.
And then all these whiners come across the forums, with their tears, and yell about something being overpowered. I can't believe blizzard is listening to it...
If they are about to nerf helions drop this game doesn't worth a dime. Because in the end we'll get the same everything's_nerfed_WOL_crap with just Bio vs infestors vs 4gate.
It's mostly because if they don't play greedy they die to the Terran greedy play, which is extremely hard to punish considering the new Widow Mine and free siege tech. MMM/Mine pushes are also extremely strong now, whether they be 10:00 timings or 2-2 14-16 minute timings.
On February 12 2013 07:49 Sandermatt wrote:
Can't you still drop helions and transform them as they land?
It takes a long time, which gives the other player a lot of time to react. A lot of what makes Hellbat drops so good is that you can boost and land your Hellbats right on top of enemy workers, causing massive damage without any way to reliably dodge- only split as if you would against Banelings.
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On February 12 2013 07:58 captainwaffles wrote:
To all the silly whiners in this thread, go be silly else where and stop bringing the quality of TL's forums down.
Hellbats are okay, I think its the medivac that is the real culprit here. You can just keep boosting all over the workers and dropping hellbats on top of them. On the other hand we don't want to nerf shit into the ground when we're still in beta. Making the Hellbat take more space seems like the best possible solution tbh. It would be infinitely harder to get even half the amount of kills.
To all the silly people saying silly things like hellbats kill roaches or stalkers or anything thats not light or melee... well you know what, micro more son, banes kill marines unless you micro and split them, now you'll have to actually micro against hellbats because they're a decent unit now. Unlike before they got their damaged buff and they would only kill lings (not even that good against zealots before).
TL;DR Stop silly whining, Hellbats are good, Blizzard's proposed solution is good.
The entire point of the beta is to find issues and discuss them so they can be fixed.
You don't understand the point of betas. It's not whining.
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On February 12 2013 08:51 Glurkenspurk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:58 captainwaffles wrote:
To all the silly whiners in this thread, go be silly else where and stop bringing the quality of TL's forums down.
Hellbats are okay, I think its the medivac that is the real culprit here. You can just keep boosting all over the workers and dropping hellbats on top of them. On the other hand we don't want to nerf shit into the ground when we're still in beta. Making the Hellbat take more space seems like the best possible solution tbh. It would be infinitely harder to get even half the amount of kills.
To all the silly people saying silly things like hellbats kill roaches or stalkers or anything thats not light or melee... well you know what, micro more son, banes kill marines unless you micro and split them, now you'll have to actually micro against hellbats because they're a decent unit now. Unlike before they got their damaged buff and they would only kill lings (not even that good against zealots before).
TL;DR Stop silly whining, Hellbats are good, Blizzard's proposed solution is good.
The entire point of the beta is to find issues and discuss them so they can be fixed. You don't understand the point of betas. It's not whining.
To be fair, there are also some people that ignore the change Blizzard is discussing and instead just use this as an opportunity to bash Blizzard.
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On February 12 2013 08:51 Glurkenspurk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:58 captainwaffles wrote:
To all the silly whiners in this thread, go be silly else where and stop bringing the quality of TL's forums down.
Hellbats are okay, I think its the medivac that is the real culprit here. You can just keep boosting all over the workers and dropping hellbats on top of them. On the other hand we don't want to nerf shit into the ground when we're still in beta. Making the Hellbat take more space seems like the best possible solution tbh. It would be infinitely harder to get even half the amount of kills.
To all the silly people saying silly things like hellbats kill roaches or stalkers or anything thats not light or melee... well you know what, micro more son, banes kill marines unless you micro and split them, now you'll have to actually micro against hellbats because they're a decent unit now. Unlike before they got their damaged buff and they would only kill lings (not even that good against zealots before).
TL;DR Stop silly whining, Hellbats are good, Blizzard's proposed solution is good.
The entire point of the beta is to find issues and discuss them so they can be fixed. You don't understand the point of betas. It's not whining. What's going on in this thread is absolutely whining
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i equate the hellbats similar to a reaver drop with a speed shuttle. early game can do a lot of damage if you dont react properly, and later on in the game you should have zoned out your base such that a shuttle cant get in.
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On February 12 2013 07:36 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:33 Plansix wrote:On February 12 2013 07:21 Defacer wrote:
Catz just dropped a bunch of truth bombs on his stream about Hellbats.
He explained that hellbats are essentially 100 mineral, Gasless 'roaches' at tier 1 that can be healed by medivacs. And that in 2v2s, him and Drewbie essentially would just mass roaches and medivacs because they knew how ridiculously OP a timing it would be in the early mid-game
Giving Terrans hellbats is as broken an idea as giving Zerg dropships at tier 1. And Catz basically called bullshit on David Kim, saying anyone that doesn't recognize that should be fired from balancing the game. I like how if CatZ says it, they become truth bombs. This is how facts are found folks, on semi-professional player's streams. I mean, this argument is one step above "It was on the TV, so it must be true". Actually, the argument is true because it's true. How can you possible rationailize a unit that is cheaper than a roach, does aoe splash, and is healable and droppable at tier1? Hell, why no make viking healable too? A medivac can already pick them up.
Because the last time we listened to non-top-tier pros(and by that we just didn't let people figure out what to do(show with their play) and instead listened to vocal members of the community) the game got completely fucked up and we've been left with the current WOL which is really really boring...
Lets wait and see what pro-players come up with before we jump the gun, limit of 2 per drop ship seems like it could really nerf the potential of the unit.
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Hellbats are simply too good compared to other units that costs 100 minerals. Medivac speed boost is also too good given that it requires no upgrades. Why am I not surprised that there is a problem?
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I don't understand why there are ANY complaints about the proposed solution. Hellbats as a unit aren't the problem, neither are the medivacs aside from how they combine with this unit. Using Medivacs speed boost to help make up for Hellbats slow base speed is a nice form of synergy that requires micro, so I don't think it should be removed completely, just balanced out a bit.
So the proposed solution sounds awesome.
Complaints about it being healable and droppable are silly. And this is coming from someone who plays Zerg as their main. I think it's awesome for Terran that they have a strong, cheap unit - you can't expect each race not to have their own strengths.
The only potential problem is how strong the drops are early game, and the solution they came up with should be perfect - hurting the early game drops without affecting later game much, and still allowing "hellbat/medivac micro" which in the end should be good for the game, since more micro is always a plus.
People on the other side of the fence complaining that it will hurt the units too much, I disagree with that as well. You can still do the drops just will need double as many medivacs. This means you can still do the same "4 hellbat" drops just 42 seconds later. Nothing too major, just a slight delay, which should even things out a bit, and prevent 4 hellbat drops at 6:30 - instead it would be 7:10'ish, which is more than reasonable. Plus a 2nd medivac = more micro.
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EPT
