EPTDissatisfaction with the state of PvP - Page 2
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Kanadan
Denmark2 Posts
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i)awn
United States189 Posts
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
Storm! Trust me, Void Rays will clump and are pretty slow having 6 to 8 HTs with energy and storming the VRs will destroy a ton. Archons Again VRs like to clump and Archons own them, not bonus damage against Archons means you can actually get in range. Phoenixes, you can trade all game long very advantagous against VRs using range phoenixes. More Void Rays. No-Brainer I find Phoenix Archon really amazing, just a few phoenixes to finish off after the Archons did some damage. Stalkers are really bad, you have to either blink in and fight vs charged VRs or you safe for defensive blinks and will get very little Stalkers to attack, meaning you fight like you would with half supply. The problem as almost always is not the game it's you. If one composition clearly doesn't work you have to think of something else. . . That's like.. the most basic thing ever.. Right now PvP means you have to scout constantly and get the right units, always take map control and try to outmacro. PvP is at least a million times better than in WoL. | ||
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nottapro
202 Posts
On January 19 2013 00:22 awesomoecalypse wrote: Void Rays need to lose their extended range once they engage a target. That is, once they start attacking something, if the target tries to retreat the range extends to follow them. This means that once you engage Voids, even if your forces are faster, it rarely pays to retreat. Remove this mechanic. This would allow Stalkers to engage at 6 range (same as Voids), and then as soon as the Voids trigger charge Stalkers can pull back and wait for it to wear off. Without their charge, the new Voids aren't that great against Stalkers. This wouldn't remove Voids as a potent option, but it would mean that well-microed Gateway armies would at least have a chance against them. Not a criticism of the suggestion to removing their extra range, but a question, doesnt this suggest the blink is a viable micro counter that doesnt require a patch? | ||
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NetterMizuno
Finland17 Posts
On January 19 2013 05:36 rEalGuapo wrote: So here is what wins vs Void Ray compositions: Storm! Trust me, Void Rays will clump and are pretty slow having 6 to 8 HTs with energy and storming the VRs will destroy a ton. Archons Again VRs like to clump and Archons own them, not bonus damage against Archons means you can actually get in range. Phoenixes, you can trade all game long very advantagous against VRs using range phoenixes. More Void Rays. No-Brainer I find Phoenix Archon really amazing, just a few phoenixes to finish off after the Archons did some damage. Stalkers are really bad, you have to either blink in and fight vs charged VRs or you safe for defensive blinks and will get very little Stalkers to attack, meaning you fight like you would with half supply. The problem as almost always is not the game it's you. If one composition clearly doesn't work you have to think of something else. . . That's like.. the most basic thing ever.. Right now PvP means you have to scout constantly and get the right units, always take map control and try to outmacro. PvP is at least a million times better than in WoL. I feel like commeting, because THIS IS SO FUCKING TRUE.(at least for me) When it was 4gate vs 4gate only, i enjoyed it becuase it was skill based, then it transistioned into Colossai war and i started to hate the entire PvP matchup. Now, in beta, PvP for me is really, REALLY awesome. I like sky, i like it really much. if i go voidray heavy and the opponent DOES NOTHING to counter them(Storm, Archon, Phoenix, tempest even carriers♥(micro)) and just keep massing stalkers, of course you are going to loose, it's so obvious because Stalkers are BAD anti-air unit agaisnt units who can kill them quikly, aka Voidray. People need to get out of the habbit of thinking like they thinked back in WoL. It's whole new game where you cannot apply the same logic to the units that has been CHANGED. You see Zealot Archon voidray coming? and you were going stalker heavy? Harash them with stalkers and go Zealoth archon void(carrier if micro) and STORM = you win. You see phoenix play? Archons, storm > phoenix. and if they do go stalker colossai, well then you can play like in WoL but you still have new Hots awesomeness to use agaisnt them and rofl stomp them.(tempeeeeessstttttt♥) In WoL it was pretty much get 2 base mass colossai amove and see what happends.(at least that it feel'd FOR ME) scouting? you only needed to see where he was and was there 4gate coming. Now i like it how you have to scout to see what the oppoent does in order you to try to out play him, this made PvP in my oppinion REALLY interesting straight away, DT, stargate, ANYTHING can come now, which does give it the random feeling if you don't scout. and it does force you to do something else, that you would be doing if you would be playing WoL. Anyway this is what I think of the current PvP. Some may say that PvP (Phoenix vs Phoenix) is more cancer than colossai war, imo when you go phoenix and opponent goes too, what you build BESIDES phoenix does matter alot, which i like alot. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
pvp is 1000 million times better now, wow... And i didnt even know you could counter mass void rays, thanks for advice guys, now 1000 million x2 better | ||
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BerthaG
France74 Posts
I think people in HOTS try to play like in WOL, that should not be the case. | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On January 19 2013 00:01 Flamm wrote: En Taro Adun, fellow Protoss brethren. I'm currently in a state where I find PvP as a matchup utterly boring..... Mainly it's due to the viability of void ray against even larger numbers of stalkers. (the supply change had no effect on that) As of late the PvP that reach mid to late game, end up being a stupid air war which is boring to control, boring to watch and the outcome often almost as unpredictable as Colossi wars. My question is, do you end up having games similar to what I've described above? And do you find it as boring as I do? Dont get me wrong, I don't hate compositions that are entirely air but I'd love if there was some approach in between in a late game situation, but I feel there isnt. Either you commit air, pressure and win or die with your ground army. All the above mentioned is boosted by the Protoss defensive capability such as overcharge. AIR is just tooooo tempting since there's less risk involved now. I chose Protoss as a race because I felt it's the least stupid mirror matchup but with HotS that state is beginning to change......... Just so you know, storm RAPES airtoss. Possibly I'm just playing people worse than me, but when I don't go air (and to be fair I've been using primarily a phoenix opening for six months, including in WoL), I use stalkers to fend off the enemy and then go for zealot-archon, except that I get storm. Storm does a surprising amount of damage, or lets you attack his units while they are not attacking yours  . It's too early to say how PvP will turn out at this stage, but at least it's not just 4-gate vs 4-gate (which could be exciting at time, but never actually interesting). | ||
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LuNa.
United States20 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
And since Voidrays don't melt Archons anymore, unless you belong to the sort of Protoss player only going for 3/3 , Templar tech works fairly good in keeping the Voidrays spread out and snipeable. You will probably need some form of Air in PvP, but mass Voidray is beatable now compared to Wings (unless you don't know how to charge them). But I hate the Charge on a Button Voidray too, they should revert it back. Was way more fun before. | ||
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uh-oh
Hong Kong135 Posts
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On January 21 2013 23:35 FeyFey wrote: PvP is nice, but mostly it didn't change alot from what I did in WoL. Except that they made the Voidray so easy to use that everyone realized how overpowered it is in the matchup. Since Wings there was no counter to Voidrays available except Storm or Voidrays. They just were hard to control. The charge on a button is pretty much a nerf to Voids if you have the control to use them right. And since Voidrays don't melt Archons anymore, unless you belong to the sort of Protoss player only going for 3/3 , Templar tech works fairly good in keeping the Voidrays spread out and snipeable. You will probably need some form of Air in PvP, but mass Voidray is beatable now compared to Wings (unless you don't know how to charge them). But I hate the Charge on a Button Voidray too, they should revert it back. Was way more fun before. I agree that the charge on a button is boring, but reverting it back would be a terrible idea. Voidrays would return to being the joke of SC2. The only time that the Voidray functioned well in WoL was in it's original form. Once they nerfed the charged damage by so much, it became not worth the micro to get them charged early and to keep them charged. Did you notice? Everyone was doing really interesting charge-preserving micro until that nerf. Since that time, about a year and a half ago, no one has done the micro in a pro game. And if they don't think it's worth the APM, then it shouldn't be worth it for anyone else either. When a unit is designed to have back-loaded damage, that damage needs to be substantial. After the nerf, a charged Voidray vs armored units had slightly more DPS than a Banshee. That nerf was a mistake, and returning to it would be an even bigger one, since we've seen the detrimental effects of it already. | ||
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contaminant.237
Canada13 Posts
A minor tweak to Stalkers to make them more competitive as anti-air (slightly increased damage or fire rate when attacking aerial units?) might be an improvement, but I would almost rather see a change in direction - for example, away from the Oracle, which is a very limited-usefulness unit (almost exclusively harass, even after all the changes), and towards a new ground-to-air unit. | ||
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Chaops
Austria3 Posts
On January 22 2013 04:24 contaminant.237 wrote: away from the Oracle, which is a very limited-usefulness unit (almost exclusively harass, even after all the changes), and towards a new ground-to-air unit. I feel like the type of detection it grants is pretty strong, but on the other hand, it doesn't really feel like it's a protoss unit. (This whole harass unit thingy just doesn't feel right to me) | ||
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LingBlingBling
United States353 Posts
Hots pvp has so many different builds that can be done, void rays don't exactly build fast and cost a bit, if you can't scout what hes doing then its your fault. not sure what exactly you are having issues with?? are u afking for 40 mins then waitiing for him to get like 40 void rays and a moving?? because few void rays in mid game are weak vs proper blink stalker armies and micro. Should be able to blink back now when you see the void ray charge animation. Also as above mentioned Dt openers work wonders vs someone opening with void rays, he will be forced to make oracles for detection rather then build up voidrays. | ||
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GorGor
78 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 19 2013 00:14 baldgye wrote: what? since almost WoL launch PvP was the worst matchup becasue it was just 4gate vs 4gate and it wasn't for a while untill better builds creeped out and it then just moved into silly collosus wars... WoL has only recentally been good PvP... HotS is alot more dynamic PvP at least for me... haha sad thing is that is when I enjoyed pvp the most was when it was just 4 gate vs 4 gate xD. | ||
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Artisian
United States115 Posts
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HoriZoNXI
Australia310 Posts
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lemonbone
Hong Kong154 Posts
Carrier cannot micro against void ray, so do not build carrier lol. Stupid void ray with that stupid chasing attack + stupid charge vs armor is stupid :D | ||
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