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En Taro Adun,
fellow Protoss brethren.
I'm currently in a state where I find PvP as a matchup utterly boring.....
Mainly it's due to the viability of void ray against even larger numbers of stalkers. (the supply change had no effect on that)
As of late the PvP that reach mid to late game, end up being a stupid air war which is boring to control, boring to watch and the outcome often almost as unpredictable as Colossi wars.
My question is, do you end up having games similar to what I've described above?
And do you find it as boring as I do?
Dont get me wrong, I don't hate compositions that are entirely air but I'd love if there was some approach in between in a late game situation, but I feel there isnt. Either you commit air, pressure and win or die with your ground army. All the above mentioned is boosted by the Protoss defensive capability such as overcharge. AIR is just tooooo tempting since there's less risk involved now.
I chose Protoss as a race because I felt it's the least stupid mirror matchup but with HotS that state is beginning to change.........
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On January 19 2013 00:01 Flamm wrote:
I chose Protoss as a race because I felt it's the least stupid mirror matchup but with HotS that state is beginning to change.........
what? since almost WoL launch PvP was the worst matchup becasue it was just 4gate vs 4gate and it wasn't for a while untill better builds creeped out and it then just moved into silly collosus wars... WoL has only recentally been good PvP... HotS is alot more dynamic PvP at least for me...
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I suggest you to try dts into chargelot/archon. In 2v2 base scenario u can actually match his vr count with archons. Besides, oracle's detection is not rly that good, and most of the time they'll be used offensively, so there is a good chance your dts will give u an advantage vs stargating opponent.
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Compared to the early stages of pvp in WOL (for the first year after release) it's incredible good. However, it's still far from being well designed matchup. The one big issue of pvp in WOL currently is that in the later stages of the game everything is centered around the colossus while now in HOTS everything is centered around air, mostly voidrays. If there was a ground unit that would deal better vs lots of air in the protoss arsenal but bad vs ground units this would maybe be totally different. It's defenitely not the end state and some design work still has to be done.
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On January 19 2013 00:14 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:01 Flamm wrote:
I chose Protoss as a race because I felt it's the least stupid mirror matchup but with HotS that state is beginning to change.........
what? since almost WoL launch PvP was the worst matchup becasue it was just 4gate vs 4gate and it wasn't for a while untill better builds creeped out and it then just moved into silly collosus wars... WoL has only recentally been good PvP... HotS is alot more dynamic PvP at least for me...
Some of us actually like the PvP matchup a lot.
even when 4 gate dominated the matchup, I still found PvP to be my favorite mirror to play (not to watch).
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Void Rays need to lose their extended range once they engage a target. That is, once they start attacking something, if the target tries to retreat the range extends to follow them. This means that once you engage Voids, even if your forces are faster, it rarely pays to retreat.
Remove this mechanic. This would allow Stalkers to engage at 6 range (same as Voids), and then as soon as the Voids trigger charge Stalkers can pull back and wait for it to wear off. Without their charge, the new Voids aren't that great against Stalkers.
This wouldn't remove Voids as a potent option, but it would mean that well-microed Gateway armies would at least have a chance against them.
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On January 19 2013 00:21 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:14 baldgye wrote:On January 19 2013 00:01 Flamm wrote:
I chose Protoss as a race because I felt it's the least stupid mirror matchup but with HotS that state is beginning to change.........
what? since almost WoL launch PvP was the worst matchup becasue it was just 4gate vs 4gate and it wasn't for a while untill better builds creeped out and it then just moved into silly collosus wars... WoL has only recentally been good PvP... HotS is alot more dynamic PvP at least for me... Some of us actually like the PvP matchup a lot. even when 4 gate dominated the matchup, I still found PvP to be my favorite mirror to play (not to watch).
I'm a protoss and have no real problem with the 4gate stuff, but your complaint is that PvP is stale and the same old, why does that matter if its 4gate or VR armies ?
What I've found is that if you open phonex and have some air control you can make it so uneconomical for the other protoss to go air through drops etc and DT useage..
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Why it matters if its 4 gate or VD?
Because HotS is meant to improve not to replace one stupid stale with another.........
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On January 19 2013 00:41 Flamm wrote:
Why it matters if its 4 gate or VD?
Because HotS is meant to improve not to replace one stupid stale with another.........
but its a beta and its constantally changing, it was bearly a month or so ago (?) when there was another thread complaining that Tempest are the new collosus in PvP and that its just as dumb as before... While VR's are kinda silly atm they are not the defult build that I've been seeing and there are other things you can do with the match up
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hmm sounds to me like you need to replaces the colossus with the reaver
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archons should actually demolish voidrays, maybe storm is also an option, so zealot/archon is probably the way to go.
Or getting a lot of phoenixes. Does guardian shield help against voidrays?
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On January 19 2013 01:13 FutureBreedMachine wrote:
hmm sounds to me like you need to replaces the colossus with the reaver
...what? Colossus are not an issue at all in PvP ever since the Tempest was added, and the unit that people currently feel is too strong, the Void Ray, is one that would hard counter Reavers since Reavers can't hit air and Voids mow through armored so quickly. Adding Reavers would do literally nothing to improve PvP at the moment.
This would be like if someone complained that currently Ravens are too strong in TvZ and you responded with "bring back the Lurker." It doesn't make sense. BW was cool and all, but if you're going to suggest a fix to a problem in SC2 it should be a fix that, you know, actually has something to do with the problem at hand.
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A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.>
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On January 19 2013 01:23 -Kyo- wrote:
A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.>
Stargate has detection now. Its not as good as Robo detection, but for picking off DTs it should be fine. If its coming out too slowly, or the energy cost makes it too haphazard, they could either lower Oracle build time, or lower the energy cost on Oracle detection to 25. Either way I don't think DTs are some insurmountable problem in balancing the matchup.
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On January 19 2013 01:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:23 -Kyo- wrote:
A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.> Stargate has detection now. Its not as good as Robo detection, but for picking off DTs it should be fine. If its coming out too slowly, or the energy cost makes it too haphazard, they could either lower Oracle build time, or lower the energy cost on Oracle detection to 25. Either way I don't think DTs are some insurmountable problem in balancing the matchup.
lower oracle build time and every single pvt is over after 5 min
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oh man... PvP is probablu the best hots matchup nowadays. Dont be crazy.
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On January 19 2013 00:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Void Rays need to lose their extended range once they engage a target. That is, once they start attacking something, if the target tries to retreat the range extends to follow them. This means that once you engage Voids, even if your forces are faster, it rarely pays to retreat.
Remove this mechanic. This would allow Stalkers to engage at 6 range (same as Voids), and then as soon as the Voids trigger charge Stalkers can pull back and wait for it to wear off. Without their charge, the new Voids aren't that great against Stalkers.
This wouldn't remove Voids as a potent option, but it would mean that well-microed Gateway armies would at least have a chance against them.
With blink, Stalkers can already be microed vs VR since you can blink away as soon as charge is triggered. I don't think removing this mechanic would do anything in PvP (but it would help in others matchup).
In late game PvP, I usually go for Stalkers + Storm + Archon vs mass VR and it seem to work well.
On January 19 2013 01:23 -Kyo- wrote:
A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.>
Most Stargate builds include an early Oracle or a very early Phoenix scout, DT shall not be a problem unless you try to be greedy by hidding your first 3 phoenix before scouting with them. But it's true that there is a lot of coin flipping in the matchup at the moment. I don't know if it's a design problem or if it's because the matchup isn't figured out yet...
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On January 19 2013 01:32 Noizhende wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:On January 19 2013 01:23 -Kyo- wrote:
A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.> Stargate has detection now. Its not as good as Robo detection, but for picking off DTs it should be fine. If its coming out too slowly, or the energy cost makes it too haphazard, they could either lower Oracle build time, or lower the energy cost on Oracle detection to 25. Either way I don't think DTs are some insurmountable problem in balancing the matchup. lower oracle build time and every single pvt is over after 5 min
I'm not sure if this is the case. 5 Marines beat an Oracle straight up, and getting out 5 marines by the time stargate units are in play is very doable. And Oracles are big enough investment that if you lose it early on and/or they dont do much econ damage, you're in a very bad spot. It would also really depend on how much the build time was reduced--like if Oracles had super short build time like Phoenixes I could see that being a big issue, but if they went from, say, a 50 second build time to a 40 second build time I doubt that would make them impossible to deal with.
And like I said, thats not the only thing Blizzard could look at. Improving Oracle detection, for example by reducing the energy cost or increasing the duration of their detection spell, would also really buff Stargate vs DTs. My point is, its not like making some minor balance tweaks to improve Stargate vs DTs is some insurmountable challenge. Stargate has detection, the only question is how fast they get it and how good it is.
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On January 19 2013 01:39 hipo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:23 -Kyo- wrote:
A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.> Most Stargate builds include an early Oracle or a very early Phoenix scout, DT shall not be a problem unless you try to be greedy by hidding your first 3 phoenix before scouting with them.
-Kyo- is right, coming from a place where both players are really efficient, if you make DT vs a Stargate player you can straight up win a lot of the time. The SG player is either wasting money on Oracles that have to sit at home and detect, or they're caught with their pants down and fall behind. It all is a coinflip because maybe the SG player feels like in one game to harass with an oracle, and when DTs come either the oracle is out of energy and nowhere near their base, or it happens to be near their base and just wastes energy on detection. Or they didn't go Oracle and have phoenixes but no detection, and the DT player gets ahead while the SG player tries to handle the DT. The random chance involved, like, "did he build an oracle," "is the oracle near the base," "is it out of energy," etc. cause it to feel coinflippy. All of this is aside from the point that the oracle is not a strong combat unit and you are more likely to produce void rays or phoenix in PvP.
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On January 19 2013 01:23 -Kyo- wrote:
A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.>
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that PvP is a total coin flip. I seem to either win or lose easily in PvP. I find it worse than WOL, where things were stabilizing.
At least during the old 4 Gate times, the better 4 Gater won, so there was some degree of skill. Now it is a build order win or loss...
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you can counter voidrays with archons and storm. there is alot more to PvP in HotS then there ever was in WoL imo.
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Without the archon toilet, protoss had no solid counter to strong air units. The tempest only helps vs massive slow units. When void rays were fixed the problem emerged again: no solid counter to strong/beefy air units. Nerfing the void ray is the wrong way to fix it. I'm not suggesting having one unit that can deal with air but there should be at least a line up that can deal with it.
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So here is what wins vs Void Ray compositions:
Storm! Trust me, Void Rays will clump and are pretty slow having 6 to 8 HTs with energy and storming the VRs will destroy a ton.
Archons Again VRs like to clump and Archons own them, not bonus damage against Archons means you can actually get in range.
Phoenixes, you can trade all game long very advantagous against VRs using range phoenixes.
More Void Rays. No-Brainer
I find Phoenix Archon really amazing, just a few phoenixes to finish off after the Archons did some damage.
Stalkers are really bad, you have to either blink in and fight vs charged VRs or you safe for defensive blinks and will get very little Stalkers to attack, meaning you fight like you would with half supply.
The problem as almost always is not the game it's you. If one composition clearly doesn't work you have to think of something else. . . That's like.. the most basic thing ever..
Right now PvP means you have to scout constantly and get the right units, always take map control and try to outmacro.
PvP is at least a million times better than in WoL.
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On January 19 2013 00:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Void Rays need to lose their extended range once they engage a target. That is, once they start attacking something, if the target tries to retreat the range extends to follow them. This means that once you engage Voids, even if your forces are faster, it rarely pays to retreat.
Remove this mechanic. This would allow Stalkers to engage at 6 range (same as Voids), and then as soon as the Voids trigger charge Stalkers can pull back and wait for it to wear off. Without their charge, the new Voids aren't that great against Stalkers.
This wouldn't remove Voids as a potent option, but it would mean that well-microed Gateway armies would at least have a chance against them.
Not a criticism of the suggestion to removing their extra range, but a question, doesnt this suggest the blink is a viable micro counter that doesnt require a patch?
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On January 19 2013 05:36 rEalGuapo wrote:
So here is what wins vs Void Ray compositions:
Storm! Trust me, Void Rays will clump and are pretty slow having 6 to 8 HTs with energy and storming the VRs will destroy a ton.
Archons Again VRs like to clump and Archons own them, not bonus damage against Archons means you can actually get in range.
Phoenixes, you can trade all game long very advantagous against VRs using range phoenixes.
More Void Rays. No-Brainer
I find Phoenix Archon really amazing, just a few phoenixes to finish off after the Archons did some damage.
Stalkers are really bad, you have to either blink in and fight vs charged VRs or you safe for defensive blinks and will get very little Stalkers to attack, meaning you fight like you would with half supply.
The problem as almost always is not the game it's you. If one composition clearly doesn't work you have to think of something else. . . That's like.. the most basic thing ever..
Right now PvP means you have to scout constantly and get the right units, always take map control and try to outmacro.
PvP is at least a million times better than in WoL.
I feel like commeting, because THIS IS SO FUCKING TRUE.(at least for me)
When it was 4gate vs 4gate only, i enjoyed it becuase it was skill based, then it transistioned into Colossai war and i started to hate the entire PvP matchup.
Now, in beta, PvP for me is really, REALLY awesome. I like sky, i like it really much. if i go voidray heavy and the opponent DOES NOTHING to counter them(Storm, Archon, Phoenix, tempest even carriers♥(micro)) and just keep massing stalkers, of course you are going to loose, it's so obvious because Stalkers are BAD anti-air unit agaisnt units who can kill them quikly, aka Voidray.
People need to get out of the habbit of thinking like they thinked back in WoL. It's whole new game where you cannot apply the same logic to the units that has been CHANGED.
You see Zealot Archon voidray coming? and you were going stalker heavy? Harash them with stalkers and go Zealoth archon void(carrier if micro) and STORM = you win. You see phoenix play? Archons, storm > phoenix. and if they do go stalker colossai, well then you can play like in WoL but you still have new Hots awesomeness to use agaisnt them and rofl stomp them.(tempeeeeessstttttt♥)
In WoL it was pretty much get 2 base mass colossai amove and see what happends.(at least that it feel'd FOR ME) scouting? you only needed to see where he was and was there 4gate coming. Now i like it how you have to scout to see what the oppoent does in order you to try to out play him, this made PvP in my oppinion REALLY interesting straight away, DT, stargate, ANYTHING can come now, which does give it the random feeling if you don't scout. and it does force you to do something else, that you would be doing if you would be playing WoL.
Anyway this is what I think of the current PvP. Some may say that PvP (Phoenix vs Phoenix) is more cancer than colossai war, imo when you go phoenix and opponent goes too, what you build BESIDES phoenix does matter alot, which i like alot.
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I have to comment here, to me
pvp is 1000 million times better now, wow...
And i didnt even know you could counter mass void rays, thanks for advice guys, now 1000 million x2 better
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For me PvP in WOL is so good and exciting. Concerning Hots, that is true that void are used, tried to reach HT with storm, and play on the low mobility of a Void army.
I think people in HOTS try to play like in WOL, that should not be the case.
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On January 19 2013 00:01 Flamm wrote:
En Taro Adun,
fellow Protoss brethren.
I'm currently in a state where I find PvP as a matchup utterly boring.....
Mainly it's due to the viability of void ray against even larger numbers of stalkers. (the supply change had no effect on that)
As of late the PvP that reach mid to late game, end up being a stupid air war which is boring to control, boring to watch and the outcome often almost as unpredictable as Colossi wars.
My question is, do you end up having games similar to what I've described above?
And do you find it as boring as I do?
Dont get me wrong, I don't hate compositions that are entirely air but I'd love if there was some approach in between in a late game situation, but I feel there isnt. Either you commit air, pressure and win or die with your ground army. All the above mentioned is boosted by the Protoss defensive capability such as overcharge. AIR is just tooooo tempting since there's less risk involved now.
I chose Protoss as a race because I felt it's the least stupid mirror matchup but with HotS that state is beginning to change.........
Just so you know, storm RAPES airtoss. Possibly I'm just playing people worse than me, but when I don't go air (and to be fair I've been using primarily a phoenix opening for six months, including in WoL), I use stalkers to fend off the enemy and then go for zealot-archon, except that I get storm. Storm does a surprising amount of damage, or lets you attack his units while they are not attacking yours  . It's too early to say how PvP will turn out at this stage, but at least it's not just 4-gate vs 4-gate (which could be exciting at time, but never actually interesting).
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I would think doing a build like the 2 gateway stargate into robo (featured by Day9) would be a great opening and would end up becoming the standard "safe" build come HotS. Right now in WoL it looks to matchup very well against most builds (not 100% sure on builds like 1 base colossus all in) and it allows for a number of good transitions. Come HotS I would think this would be even better because void rays are now viable, oracles are good for early detection/harassment which would allow you to go straight for an immortal when the robo finishes instead of having to get an observer. It would take some time to figure out the exact timings of when you can get x, y and z to defend against w/e you scout but this seems to be a very solid build and you have a number of options for defending various timings.
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PvP is nice, but mostly it didn't change alot from what I did in WoL. Except that they made the Voidray so easy to use that everyone realized how overpowered it is in the matchup. Since Wings there was no counter to Voidrays available except Storm or Voidrays. They just were hard to control. The charge on a button is pretty much a nerf to Voids if you have the control to use them right.
And since Voidrays don't melt Archons anymore, unless you belong to the sort of Protoss player only going for 3/3 , Templar tech works fairly good in keeping the Voidrays spread out and snipeable. You will probably need some form of Air in PvP, but mass Voidray is beatable now compared to Wings (unless you don't know how to charge them).
But I hate the Charge on a Button Voidray too, they should revert it back. Was way more fun before.
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I feel like mothership core mass recall is underused, with it your army can essentially be offensive and defensive at the same time. A skytoss can do something cool like voidray surgical strikes to snip nexus in a heart beat and then recall out. MSC gives us so many more possibilities. Massive air battles are indeed unpredictable, but with skytoss and recall you can do much more then just sit back at your base and hope the enemy comes o you with a smaller army.
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On January 21 2013 23:35 FeyFey wrote:
PvP is nice, but mostly it didn't change alot from what I did in WoL. Except that they made the Voidray so easy to use that everyone realized how overpowered it is in the matchup. Since Wings there was no counter to Voidrays available except Storm or Voidrays. They just were hard to control. The charge on a button is pretty much a nerf to Voids if you have the control to use them right.
And since Voidrays don't melt Archons anymore, unless you belong to the sort of Protoss player only going for 3/3 , Templar tech works fairly good in keeping the Voidrays spread out and snipeable. You will probably need some form of Air in PvP, but mass Voidray is beatable now compared to Wings (unless you don't know how to charge them).
But I hate the Charge on a Button Voidray too, they should revert it back. Was way more fun before.
I agree that the charge on a button is boring, but reverting it back would be a terrible idea. Voidrays would return to being the joke of SC2. The only time that the Voidray functioned well in WoL was in it's original form. Once they nerfed the charged damage by so much, it became not worth the micro to get them charged early and to keep them charged. Did you notice? Everyone was doing really interesting charge-preserving micro until that nerf. Since that time, about a year and a half ago, no one has done the micro in a pro game. And if they don't think it's worth the APM, then it shouldn't be worth it for anyone else either.
When a unit is designed to have back-loaded damage, that damage needs to be substantial. After the nerf, a charged Voidray vs armored units had slightly more DPS than a Banshee. That nerf was a mistake, and returning to it would be an even bigger one, since we've seen the detrimental effects of it already.
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The biggest weakness Protoss have right now (and it's hugely enunciated in PvP due to all of the air additions in HotS) is that they lack a strong ground-to-air attack. Terran have great options (Marines, Thors), Zerg is mediocre (Hydralisks, ITs), but Protoss is hugely limited (Stalkers, Sentries*, Archons*). Ultimately, without a way to answer air from the ground, Protoss are forced to make their own air units to counter opposing air units.
A minor tweak to Stalkers to make them more competitive as anti-air (slightly increased damage or fire rate when attacking aerial units?) might be an improvement, but I would almost rather see a change in direction - for example, away from the Oracle, which is a very limited-usefulness unit (almost exclusively harass, even after all the changes), and towards a new ground-to-air unit.
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PvP has always been my favorite matchup. With HotS there is a lot of diversity being added to this matchup. I guess it's going to turn out pretty well.
On January 22 2013 04:24 contaminant.237 wrote:
away from the Oracle, which is a very limited-usefulness unit (almost exclusively harass, even after all the changes), and towards a new ground-to-air unit.
I feel like the type of detection it grants is pretty strong, but on the other hand, it doesn't really feel like it's a protoss unit. (This whole harass unit thingy just doesn't feel right to me)
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beta pvp is so much better then WOL, @Op No one @ the highest lvl of play enjoyed the old pvp 4gate vs 4gate it was the most stupid crap ever no skill/strat behind it. Hots provides many options, if you are losing to vr..... then you are doing something wrong.
Hots pvp has so many different builds that can be done, void rays don't exactly build fast and cost a bit, if you can't scout what hes doing then its your fault. not sure what exactly you are having issues with?? are u afking for 40 mins then waitiing for him to get like 40 void rays and a moving?? because few void rays in mid game are weak vs proper blink stalker armies and micro. Should be able to blink back now when you see the void ray charge animation.
Also as above mentioned Dt openers work wonders vs someone opening with void rays, he will be forced to make oracles for detection rather then build up voidrays.
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It is too hard to micro as Protoss because we don't get to practice microing in the other matchups, so when we have the same armies we just mass units and attack in a big clumpy clusterfuck.
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On January 19 2013 00:14 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:01 Flamm wrote:
I chose Protoss as a race because I felt it's the least stupid mirror matchup but with HotS that state is beginning to change.........
what? since almost WoL launch PvP was the worst matchup becasue it was just 4gate vs 4gate and it wasn't for a while untill better builds creeped out and it then just moved into silly collosus wars... WoL has only recentally been good PvP... HotS is alot more dynamic PvP at least for me...
haha sad thing is that is when I enjoyed pvp the most was when it was just 4 gate vs 4 gate xD.
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I really like the stargate vs robo, stargate vs stargate, and robo vs robo dynamics along with the occasional templar build or support. Feels like there is a lot of opportunity with mass recall so early to go in and snipe a nexus as the void player, recall out and defend, so map control should be so much more important and spreading your army 100% key. I like the all-over-the-map style games, where there's something happening everywhere, and it feels like skytoss should add that kind of action. The nix wars (and the potential for 7 range nix) should be bearable after the timings are worked out, and I suspect there are huge timings you can abuse vs anyone who goes voidray -> tempest -> carrier or anything similar.
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I really hated PvP in WoL but I feel PvP is going in the right direction for HotS, making it one of my favourite match ups to play now (Playing random). Although one consideration is the fact there's so many spells which is forcing me to use more than 2 hotkeys xD Which is good I guess, I've been spoiled for too long.
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judging from my desert strike experience, Archons + HT is the best choice against air if you don't want to go air as well. However, this is impratical in 1v1 in most cases :D
Carrier cannot micro against void ray, so do not build carrier lol. Stupid void ray with that stupid chasing attack + stupid charge vs armor is stupid :D
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I remember the days of collossus vs collossus.
Fun times, blizz did a great job with all their new units.
I haven't played HotS but it can't be any worse than that surely.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
If there was a ground unit that would deal better vs lots of air in the protoss arsenal but bad vs ground units this would maybe be totally different
Because getting an air unit that was good at dealing with the colossus really made things much better
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I think void rays are pretty dumb as they are right now and i can't imagine them not being changed before release, aside from that i'd say PvP as a matchup evolved the most when compared to WoL.
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I've always liked pvp, and I like it more than ever. But it has changed more than any other matchup. Stargate is the new robo. If you skip stargate, you gamble. You cannot go stalker against void rays. You need phoenix or a higher tech.
I like it a lot. I think phoenix/void-ray/storm will be the new late game and I like that because it's completely different from any other game dynamic we have in starcraft right now.
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so void vs. void is the new uber micro meta game? I dont think so...
I lost a pvp lategame..
I expended earlier then the other protoss and went for mass blinkstalker + archon against zelots. I even had 2/2 upgrades and still wasnt able to kill all voids..
Seems like the voids are the flying colossi in hots.
and good protoss just dont clump the voids. So mass archon and storm doesnt work out as well. It will for sure if you are at lower league. But as my point of view its somehow to beat a good protoss with storm/archon/blinkstalker. sadly
I have to try out the pheonix range harras thought.
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EPT
