|
En Taro Adun,
fellow Protoss brethren.
I'm currently in a state where I find PvP as a matchup utterly boring.....
Mainly it's due to the viability of void ray against even larger numbers of stalkers. (the supply change had no effect on that)
As of late the PvP that reach mid to late game, end up being a stupid air war which is boring to control, boring to watch and the outcome often almost as unpredictable as Colossi wars.
My question is, do you end up having games similar to what I've described above?
And do you find it as boring as I do?
Dont get me wrong, I don't hate compositions that are entirely air but I'd love if there was some approach in between in a late game situation, but I feel there isnt. Either you commit air, pressure and win or die with your ground army. All the above mentioned is boosted by the Protoss defensive capability such as overcharge. AIR is just tooooo tempting since there's less risk involved now.
I chose Protoss as a race because I felt it's the least stupid mirror matchup but with HotS that state is beginning to change.........
|
On January 19 2013 00:01 Flamm wrote:
I chose Protoss as a race because I felt it's the least stupid mirror matchup but with HotS that state is beginning to change.........
what? since almost WoL launch PvP was the worst matchup becasue it was just 4gate vs 4gate and it wasn't for a while untill better builds creeped out and it then just moved into silly collosus wars... WoL has only recentally been good PvP... HotS is alot more dynamic PvP at least for me...
|
I suggest you to try dts into chargelot/archon. In 2v2 base scenario u can actually match his vr count with archons. Besides, oracle's detection is not rly that good, and most of the time they'll be used offensively, so there is a good chance your dts will give u an advantage vs stargating opponent.
|
Compared to the early stages of pvp in WOL (for the first year after release) it's incredible good. However, it's still far from being well designed matchup. The one big issue of pvp in WOL currently is that in the later stages of the game everything is centered around the colossus while now in HOTS everything is centered around air, mostly voidrays. If there was a ground unit that would deal better vs lots of air in the protoss arsenal but bad vs ground units this would maybe be totally different. It's defenitely not the end state and some design work still has to be done.
|
On January 19 2013 00:14 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:01 Flamm wrote:
I chose Protoss as a race because I felt it's the least stupid mirror matchup but with HotS that state is beginning to change.........
what? since almost WoL launch PvP was the worst matchup becasue it was just 4gate vs 4gate and it wasn't for a while untill better builds creeped out and it then just moved into silly collosus wars... WoL has only recentally been good PvP... HotS is alot more dynamic PvP at least for me...
Some of us actually like the PvP matchup a lot.
even when 4 gate dominated the matchup, I still found PvP to be my favorite mirror to play (not to watch).
|
Void Rays need to lose their extended range once they engage a target. That is, once they start attacking something, if the target tries to retreat the range extends to follow them. This means that once you engage Voids, even if your forces are faster, it rarely pays to retreat.
Remove this mechanic. This would allow Stalkers to engage at 6 range (same as Voids), and then as soon as the Voids trigger charge Stalkers can pull back and wait for it to wear off. Without their charge, the new Voids aren't that great against Stalkers.
This wouldn't remove Voids as a potent option, but it would mean that well-microed Gateway armies would at least have a chance against them.
|
On January 19 2013 00:21 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:14 baldgye wrote:On January 19 2013 00:01 Flamm wrote:
I chose Protoss as a race because I felt it's the least stupid mirror matchup but with HotS that state is beginning to change.........
what? since almost WoL launch PvP was the worst matchup becasue it was just 4gate vs 4gate and it wasn't for a while untill better builds creeped out and it then just moved into silly collosus wars... WoL has only recentally been good PvP... HotS is alot more dynamic PvP at least for me... Some of us actually like the PvP matchup a lot. even when 4 gate dominated the matchup, I still found PvP to be my favorite mirror to play (not to watch).
I'm a protoss and have no real problem with the 4gate stuff, but your complaint is that PvP is stale and the same old, why does that matter if its 4gate or VR armies ?
What I've found is that if you open phonex and have some air control you can make it so uneconomical for the other protoss to go air through drops etc and DT useage..
|
Why it matters if its 4 gate or VD?
Because HotS is meant to improve not to replace one stupid stale with another.........
|
On January 19 2013 00:41 Flamm wrote:
Why it matters if its 4 gate or VD?
Because HotS is meant to improve not to replace one stupid stale with another.........
but its a beta and its constantally changing, it was bearly a month or so ago (?) when there was another thread complaining that Tempest are the new collosus in PvP and that its just as dumb as before... While VR's are kinda silly atm they are not the defult build that I've been seeing and there are other things you can do with the match up
|
hmm sounds to me like you need to replaces the colossus with the reaver
|
archons should actually demolish voidrays, maybe storm is also an option, so zealot/archon is probably the way to go.
Or getting a lot of phoenixes. Does guardian shield help against voidrays?
|
On January 19 2013 01:13 FutureBreedMachine wrote:
hmm sounds to me like you need to replaces the colossus with the reaver
...what? Colossus are not an issue at all in PvP ever since the Tempest was added, and the unit that people currently feel is too strong, the Void Ray, is one that would hard counter Reavers since Reavers can't hit air and Voids mow through armored so quickly. Adding Reavers would do literally nothing to improve PvP at the moment.
This would be like if someone complained that currently Ravens are too strong in TvZ and you responded with "bring back the Lurker." It doesn't make sense. BW was cool and all, but if you're going to suggest a fix to a problem in SC2 it should be a fix that, you know, actually has something to do with the problem at hand.
|
A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.>
|
On January 19 2013 01:23 -Kyo- wrote:
A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.>
Stargate has detection now. Its not as good as Robo detection, but for picking off DTs it should be fine. If its coming out too slowly, or the energy cost makes it too haphazard, they could either lower Oracle build time, or lower the energy cost on Oracle detection to 25. Either way I don't think DTs are some insurmountable problem in balancing the matchup.
|
On January 19 2013 01:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:23 -Kyo- wrote:
A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.> Stargate has detection now. Its not as good as Robo detection, but for picking off DTs it should be fine. If its coming out too slowly, or the energy cost makes it too haphazard, they could either lower Oracle build time, or lower the energy cost on Oracle detection to 25. Either way I don't think DTs are some insurmountable problem in balancing the matchup.
lower oracle build time and every single pvt is over after 5 min
|
oh man... PvP is probablu the best hots matchup nowadays. Dont be crazy.
|
On January 19 2013 00:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Void Rays need to lose their extended range once they engage a target. That is, once they start attacking something, if the target tries to retreat the range extends to follow them. This means that once you engage Voids, even if your forces are faster, it rarely pays to retreat.
Remove this mechanic. This would allow Stalkers to engage at 6 range (same as Voids), and then as soon as the Voids trigger charge Stalkers can pull back and wait for it to wear off. Without their charge, the new Voids aren't that great against Stalkers.
This wouldn't remove Voids as a potent option, but it would mean that well-microed Gateway armies would at least have a chance against them.
With blink, Stalkers can already be microed vs VR since you can blink away as soon as charge is triggered. I don't think removing this mechanic would do anything in PvP (but it would help in others matchup).
In late game PvP, I usually go for Stalkers + Storm + Archon vs mass VR and it seem to work well.
On January 19 2013 01:23 -Kyo- wrote:
A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.>
Most Stargate builds include an early Oracle or a very early Phoenix scout, DT shall not be a problem unless you try to be greedy by hidding your first 3 phoenix before scouting with them. But it's true that there is a lot of coin flipping in the matchup at the moment. I don't know if it's a design problem or if it's because the matchup isn't figured out yet...
|
On January 19 2013 01:32 Noizhende wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:On January 19 2013 01:23 -Kyo- wrote:
A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.> Stargate has detection now. Its not as good as Robo detection, but for picking off DTs it should be fine. If its coming out too slowly, or the energy cost makes it too haphazard, they could either lower Oracle build time, or lower the energy cost on Oracle detection to 25. Either way I don't think DTs are some insurmountable problem in balancing the matchup. lower oracle build time and every single pvt is over after 5 min
I'm not sure if this is the case. 5 Marines beat an Oracle straight up, and getting out 5 marines by the time stargate units are in play is very doable. And Oracles are big enough investment that if you lose it early on and/or they dont do much econ damage, you're in a very bad spot. It would also really depend on how much the build time was reduced--like if Oracles had super short build time like Phoenixes I could see that being a big issue, but if they went from, say, a 50 second build time to a 40 second build time I doubt that would make them impossible to deal with.
And like I said, thats not the only thing Blizzard could look at. Improving Oracle detection, for example by reducing the energy cost or increasing the duration of their detection spell, would also really buff Stargate vs DTs. My point is, its not like making some minor balance tweaks to improve Stargate vs DTs is some insurmountable challenge. Stargate has detection, the only question is how fast they get it and how good it is.
|
On January 19 2013 01:39 hipo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:23 -Kyo- wrote:
A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.> Most Stargate builds include an early Oracle or a very early Phoenix scout, DT shall not be a problem unless you try to be greedy by hidding your first 3 phoenix before scouting with them.
-Kyo- is right, coming from a place where both players are really efficient, if you make DT vs a Stargate player you can straight up win a lot of the time. The SG player is either wasting money on Oracles that have to sit at home and detect, or they're caught with their pants down and fall behind. It all is a coinflip because maybe the SG player feels like in one game to harass with an oracle, and when DTs come either the oracle is out of energy and nowhere near their base, or it happens to be near their base and just wastes energy on detection. Or they didn't go Oracle and have phoenixes but no detection, and the DT player gets ahead while the SG player tries to handle the DT. The random chance involved, like, "did he build an oracle," "is the oracle near the base," "is it out of energy," etc. cause it to feel coinflippy. All of this is aside from the point that the oracle is not a strong combat unit and you are more likely to produce void rays or phoenix in PvP.
|
On January 19 2013 01:23 -Kyo- wrote:
A lot of problems exist in PvP as of right now. With the DT shrine being so little gas it's entirely viable to just straight tech to DT and get free wins when people go air. It's also possible that when people go blink you just go VR. There is a lot of coin flipping and without detection on the mothership core, which I don't think should be there, the matchup is literally as stale as we will ever see it. Unless both players agree to play safe a lot of the games will be decided simply by the tech they choose at the start of the game.
This is not how a match up should be played, and for me and a few other pros I've talked to on HotS, PvP is quickly losing skill based play which as I've stated many times over... is really sad considering PvP was my favorite matchup in BW T_T everytime I queue pvp on SC2 I want to quit >.>
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that PvP is a total coin flip. I seem to either win or lose easily in PvP. I find it worse than WOL, where things were stabilizing.
At least during the old 4 Gate times, the better 4 Gater won, so there was some degree of skill. Now it is a build order win or loss...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
