EPT[D] Hatch Burrow Theory Crafting - Page 2
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Mr. Nefarious
United States515 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:05 emc wrote: A lot of people are saying roaches, but I think banelings will benefit most. Zerg can go banelings without ling speed and getting burrow and using banelings for map control. Even if Zerg doesn't have the best well placed banelings, in all match ups, every race will be afraid to move out if they know you have banelings and burrow until they have mobile detection. This is a good idea. However, I think there are some things that could indicate burrowed banelings NOT being on the map. In TvZ: 1) ling speed finishes 3 minutes after first geyser goes down or generally between 6:30-7:00. If there is no zergling speed until later, you can conclude that the zerg player either went for a SUPER fast lair or that they have burrowed banelings out on the map. 2) If zerg makes an early 3rd (5:00-6:00), you know gas has been delayed. Burrowed banelings can't be out on the map for another 2 minutes, and banelings would also delay lair by a lot. 3) If zerg spends any gas on early tech (2-base into lair), you can safely conclude that there are little to no banelings burrowed on the map. I think that in TvZ, terran's will pick up on whether burrow has been researched or early tech has been invested in and will do 1 of 2 things: 1) they will determine burrow has been researched and just turtle hard and get WAY ahead in economy and upgrades or 2) they will just do the normal timing attacks, knowing they can't get caught offguard by burrowed banelings (3-5rax marine pressure, hellion/marauder pressure, hellion/marine pressure, etc). Just some ideas of how terran could handle this. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
Shouldn't be an all-in either, and could theoretically put on some decent 2 base aggression without having to immediately get the 3rd, as it may very well be more beneficial to stay on 2 bases and invest in banelings at this point (depending on what the enemy techs) Another use for T1 burrow that I haven't seen mentioned is you could have burrow already out of the way, you can get the other Lair upgrades at earlier timings than you used to as well. Once the lair is upgraded you could immediately start overlord research, meaning banelings that are both burrowable and baneling drops earlier than before. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:21 Spyridon wrote: Haven't came up with a BO yet, but the way I plan on testing this is 2 base roach opener, as soon as 2nd base is up starting both lair and burrow upgrades as near as simultaneously as possible, that way as soon as the lair is finished could follow up with the roach burrow upgrade, which should be able to provide us with the roach micro as soon as the lair is done, quickly followed by the 2nd upgrade both at earlier timings than were possible before. Shouldn't be an all-in either, and could theoretically put on some decent 2 base aggression without having to immediately get the 3rd, as it may very well be more beneficial to stay on 2 bases and invest in banelings at this point (depending on what the enemy techs) If you're already going Lair, wouldn't you be better off just putting down an Infestation Pit and building Swarm Hosts instead? | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:23 sitromit wrote: If you're already going Lair, wouldn't you be better off just putting down an Infestation Pit and building Swarm Hosts instead? That's another option. As I mentioned it should largely depend on what your enemies response is. They will be forced in to detection of some sort so you can plan around their responses better than Zerg could before. | ||
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NightHawXXX
United States16 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:41 NightHawXXX wrote: Since the only detection on hatchery tech is spore crawlers meaning in ZvZ, burrow could be used to defend off pre-lair ling aggression and extend the matchup more to the mid-game. However, banelings could still do lots of damage with a manual detonation. Overlords can spot where enemy units are burrowed and you can remember those places then, explode them with minimal count of banes or just dont walk here. | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:10 Sayscho BoB wrote: Maybe something like this? Last time this got ignored =( Yeah, this could lead to nice situations if you know that the Terran is going for early pressure. | ||
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TheAppetizer
United States146 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:41 NightHawXXX wrote: Since the only detection on hatchery tech is spore crawlers meaning in ZvZ, burrow could be used to defend off pre-lair ling aggression and extend the matchup more to the mid-game. However, banelings could still do lots of damage with a manual detonation. Your post made me realize that burrow will prevent an enemy zerg player from sending a couple zerglings to detonate my banelings since I can just burrow them until an actual engagement happens. That would help so much, allowing me to use apm that I would use to micro away my banelings on macro. The only con is that zerglings could run right by them if I'm not paying attention. | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:47 Grapefruit wrote: Yeah, this could lead to nice situations if you know that the Terran is going for early pressure. I dont think so, building that many lings that early is really bad if they dont attack, and burrow doesnt give you much more then speed (against marines). If you know the terran is going for early preasure, some burrowed banelings will ruin his day. | ||
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Esper
United States87 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Your post made me realize that burrow will prevent an enemy zerg player from sending a couple zerglings to detonate my banelings since I can just burrow them until an actual engagement happens. That would help so much, allowing me to use apm that I would use to micro away my banelings on macro. The only con is that zerglings could run right by them if I'm not paying attention. banelings have auto-unburrow ability | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:48 TheAppetizer wrote: Your post made me realize that burrow will prevent an enemy zerg player from sending a couple zerglings to detonate my banelings since I can just burrow them until an actual engagement happens. That would help so much, allowing me to use apm that I would use to micro away my banelings on macro. The only con is that zerglings could run right by them if I'm not paying attention. Eh this burrow change I highly doubt will change early game zvz at all. That 100 gas could be used on lair and with how zvz is so muta dominated right now you could be delaying your lair longer then needs be. I can see early burrow being very useful zvt, and potentially zvp, but not zvz xD. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On January 18 2013 08:54 InfCereal wrote: Hence why you target down the cannons. Once the cannons are gone the roaches can heal. And about the time, for the roach all-in you would get burrow instead of ling speed, so it would finish when that roughly would.Cannons are detectors, the burrowed roaches would still die. This upgrade is 100/100 and takes 110 seconds to build. I think blocking expos might be a big optimistic. | ||
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Divinite
United States1 Post
User was warned for this post | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
The reaper change helps Terran scout and know its coming and fast siege will in general deter a lot of all ins. Toss might risk losing their early cannon but they can always drop a 2nd fast when they see the pressure. Since toss can get detection with robo or stargate the chance of getting there before something that can detect is out is slim. Nice change in that it might encourage people to use burrow more but overall this wont change most games. | ||
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Embraced
Germany3 Posts
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zERG_bONG
United States4 Posts
this will force terran to burn scans instead of drop mules. against protoss, if you can snipe cannons, that'd pretty much negate the mamacore, wouldn't it? they can't detect anymore correct? against zerg, i think i'd rather opt for baneling bombs as defense with spines to defend against roach pushes. has anyone seen any pros or high level players mess with this upgrade yet? | ||
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