| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS |
|
Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
Burrow can now be researched at Hatch tech. But what can this be used for? Let's try to come up with some stuff. My first thought was going 11 Pool Speed, but skipping the speed and getting Burrow instead. Then trying to retain as many Lings as possible in your attack by burrowing them when they are low and blocking possible wall-offs. | ||
|
CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
| ||
|
KnT
Australia243 Posts
| ||
|
Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
On January 18 2013 08:09 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: Perhaps burrowing in peoples expos early on could be pretty annoying for someone trying to take a fast nat or 3rd. Meh, what Protoss expands without a Forge these days and Terrans have scans... and if a Zerg hasn't taken his Nat by the time your burrow finished you have other thing to worry about.  | ||
|
Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
No more fast thirds for Protoss or Terran without committing something to getting detection. | ||
|
Disastorm
United States922 Posts
get early gas, research burrow, hatch in enemy natural and then cancel the hatch when burrow is complete and burrow the drone. It may not be worth it though due to how easy it is to scan or get out the mothership core and use the detector ability. | ||
|
Tuczniak
1561 Posts
Maybe if they reduced cost to 50/50 I would consider it. | ||
|
Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
• In ZvZ you can kill burrowed zergling with one baneling. 2-4 banelings with your banes. But burrowed roach can be a problem, but at same time it's still a big investment, and other zerg can just ger early Lair instead early burrow. • in ZvP you always starting with FFE, so not much difference. Maybe stronger rushes with burrowed roaches, but at same time you got nexus cannon, you have hallucination to scout enemy, you can slighty damage attackers with M-Core • In ZvT I suppose some new builds from Terran or revision of Reaper-Expand. Early Orbital Command allows to use first 50 energy on scanning natural, and early Reapers can harass zerg at same time, because with early burrow Zerg have less queens, meaning that he will be weaker to new Reapers. Remember, that 3 reapers can kill Queen even at 50 health. With 60 HP they can do that more effectively. Also there can be another FFE-Toss similar build with engineering bay, rocket turret and widow/siege walling. | ||
|
Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
| ||
|
ElMeanYo
United States1032 Posts
| ||
|
Kanadan
Denmark2 Posts
maybe remove burrow from drones then, but that wont not seem right... | ||
|
LoveTool
Sweden143 Posts
ZvT and perhaps ZvP Build 15Pool, 16Hatch, 17Gas (consider 15H/16P/17G vs terran) Dbl Queens + 2-4 lings (clear towers) @2*Queens, Start Burrow 28/28, Roach Warren, Second Gas, 2-3 overlords @Roach Warren -> Roaches, go pressure expansion, use burrow micro to heal roaches and stay annoying While pressuring, start speed, drone & take third, start third queen (creep) & lair and go from there This was my first thought, not sure how good that build is. It should be reasonably safe vs reaper openings too. And for you ppl thinking about RUSHING to burrow. Realize that zerg needs queens early to get injects, or you cant build either units or drones. While burrow is researching (100s currently) you cant build a queen at that hatchery, which means your production will be significantly limited the rest of the game, which will put you all in with your little early game burrow play vs any economic opening by your opponent. EDIT: Ok, played some practice games and with 15Hatch/16Pool/17Gas opening you have your first 100 gas @28/28 supply or roughly at 4:50 minutes. If you start burrow then you get it out at basically 6:00. If you build your RW at 28/28 it finishes at about 5:45, at which time you have roughly 100 gas and can make 4 roaches with plenty of minerals to spare. Those roaches will pop at about 30 s later, meaning you can have 4 roaches done with burrow @ about 6:15 with few more roaches building, then take a third shortly thereafter. At this point you are at maybe about 25-28 or so drones. I suppose if you take the first gas eariler or a second gas @RW and mine it with 1-2 drones it times out better if you want a few more roaches to pop immediatelly. I might try that tomorrow, gotta go sleep now! | ||
|
InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On January 18 2013 08:17 Ben... wrote: Very potent roach rushes against Protoss where you target down cannons then burrow roaches when they are getting low health. No more fast thirds for Protoss or Terran without committing something to getting detection. Cannons are detectors, the burrowed roaches would still die. This upgrade is 100/100 and takes 110 seconds to build. I think blocking expos might be a big optimistic. | ||
|
Big G
Italy835 Posts
On January 18 2013 08:32 Existor wrote: Some my speculations on it: • In ZvZ you can kill burrowed zergling with one baneling. 2-4 banelings with your banes. But burrowed roach can be a problem, but at same time it's still a big investment, and other zerg can just ger early Lair instead early burrow. • in ZvP you always starting with FFE, so not much difference. Maybe stronger rushes with burrowed roaches, but at same time you got nexus cannon, you have hallucination to scout enemy, you can slighty damage attackers with M-Core • In ZvT I suppose some new builds from Terran or revision of Reaper-Expand. Early Orbital Command allows to use first 50 energy on scanning natural, and early Reapers can harass zerg at same time, because with early burrow Zerg have less queens, meaning that he will be weaker to new Reapers. Remember, that 3 reapers can kill Queen even at 50 health. With 60 HP they can do that more effectively. Also there can be another FFE-Toss similar build with engineering bay, rocket turret and widow/siege walling. Yeah the point is: if a Zerg scouts gas in ZvT i don't think it makes sense to delay queens/ling speed/roaches or whatever is currently used to repel reapers. | ||
|
shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
On January 18 2013 08:17 Ben... wrote: Very potent roach rushes against Protoss where you target down cannons then burrow roaches when they are getting low health. No more fast thirds for Protoss or Terran without committing something to getting detection. This. | ||
|
emc
United States3088 Posts
| ||
|
HelloSon
United States456 Posts
On January 18 2013 08:43 ElMeanYo wrote: The cost is still too prohibitive until lair-tech economy... I know I wouldn't want this at a cost of slower ling speed, baneling nest or my lair. That's what I think. I don't see any ZvP roach rush working unless the meta-game shifts to getting Zs getting early gas again. | ||
|
sitromit
7051 Posts
| ||
|
Sayscho BoB
17 Posts
| ||
|
sitromit
7051 Posts
Maybe someone will come up with a crafty all in, but that's all it will be, an all-in that will be dead the moment it's scouted, which, with free Hallucination, can not be that hard. | ||
|
Mr. Nefarious
United States515 Posts
| ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:05 emc wrote: A lot of people are saying roaches, but I think banelings will benefit most. Zerg can go banelings without ling speed and getting burrow and using banelings for map control. Even if Zerg doesn't have the best well placed banelings, in all match ups, every race will be afraid to move out if they know you have banelings and burrow until they have mobile detection. This is a good idea. However, I think there are some things that could indicate burrowed banelings NOT being on the map. In TvZ: 1) ling speed finishes 3 minutes after first geyser goes down or generally between 6:30-7:00. If there is no zergling speed until later, you can conclude that the zerg player either went for a SUPER fast lair or that they have burrowed banelings out on the map. 2) If zerg makes an early 3rd (5:00-6:00), you know gas has been delayed. Burrowed banelings can't be out on the map for another 2 minutes, and banelings would also delay lair by a lot. 3) If zerg spends any gas on early tech (2-base into lair), you can safely conclude that there are little to no banelings burrowed on the map. I think that in TvZ, terran's will pick up on whether burrow has been researched or early tech has been invested in and will do 1 of 2 things: 1) they will determine burrow has been researched and just turtle hard and get WAY ahead in economy and upgrades or 2) they will just do the normal timing attacks, knowing they can't get caught offguard by burrowed banelings (3-5rax marine pressure, hellion/marauder pressure, hellion/marine pressure, etc). Just some ideas of how terran could handle this. | ||
|
Spyridon
United States997 Posts
Shouldn't be an all-in either, and could theoretically put on some decent 2 base aggression without having to immediately get the 3rd, as it may very well be more beneficial to stay on 2 bases and invest in banelings at this point (depending on what the enemy techs) Another use for T1 burrow that I haven't seen mentioned is you could have burrow already out of the way, you can get the other Lair upgrades at earlier timings than you used to as well. Once the lair is upgraded you could immediately start overlord research, meaning banelings that are both burrowable and baneling drops earlier than before. | ||
|
sitromit
7051 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:21 Spyridon wrote: Haven't came up with a BO yet, but the way I plan on testing this is 2 base roach opener, as soon as 2nd base is up starting both lair and burrow upgrades as near as simultaneously as possible, that way as soon as the lair is finished could follow up with the roach burrow upgrade, which should be able to provide us with the roach micro as soon as the lair is done, quickly followed by the 2nd upgrade both at earlier timings than were possible before. Shouldn't be an all-in either, and could theoretically put on some decent 2 base aggression without having to immediately get the 3rd, as it may very well be more beneficial to stay on 2 bases and invest in banelings at this point (depending on what the enemy techs) If you're already going Lair, wouldn't you be better off just putting down an Infestation Pit and building Swarm Hosts instead? | ||
|
Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:23 sitromit wrote: If you're already going Lair, wouldn't you be better off just putting down an Infestation Pit and building Swarm Hosts instead? That's another option. As I mentioned it should largely depend on what your enemies response is. They will be forced in to detection of some sort so you can plan around their responses better than Zerg could before. | ||
|
NightHawXXX
United States16 Posts
| ||
|
Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:41 NightHawXXX wrote: Since the only detection on hatchery tech is spore crawlers meaning in ZvZ, burrow could be used to defend off pre-lair ling aggression and extend the matchup more to the mid-game. However, banelings could still do lots of damage with a manual detonation. Overlords can spot where enemy units are burrowed and you can remember those places then, explode them with minimal count of banes or just dont walk here. | ||
|
obsid
United States389 Posts
| ||
|
Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:10 Sayscho BoB wrote: Maybe something like this? Last time this got ignored =( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNKOLo4Qs7Q Yeah, this could lead to nice situations if you know that the Terran is going for early pressure. | ||
|
TheAppetizer
United States146 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:41 NightHawXXX wrote: Since the only detection on hatchery tech is spore crawlers meaning in ZvZ, burrow could be used to defend off pre-lair ling aggression and extend the matchup more to the mid-game. However, banelings could still do lots of damage with a manual detonation. Your post made me realize that burrow will prevent an enemy zerg player from sending a couple zerglings to detonate my banelings since I can just burrow them until an actual engagement happens. That would help so much, allowing me to use apm that I would use to micro away my banelings on macro. The only con is that zerglings could run right by them if I'm not paying attention. | ||
|
obsid
United States389 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:47 Grapefruit wrote: Yeah, this could lead to nice situations if you know that the Terran is going for early pressure. I dont think so, building that many lings that early is really bad if they dont attack, and burrow doesnt give you much more then speed (against marines). If you know the terran is going for early preasure, some burrowed banelings will ruin his day. | ||
|
Esper
United States87 Posts
| ||
|
Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Your post made me realize that burrow will prevent an enemy zerg player from sending a couple zerglings to detonate my banelings since I can just burrow them until an actual engagement happens. That would help so much, allowing me to use apm that I would use to micro away my banelings on macro. The only con is that zerglings could run right by them if I'm not paying attention. banelings have auto-unburrow ability | ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:48 TheAppetizer wrote: Your post made me realize that burrow will prevent an enemy zerg player from sending a couple zerglings to detonate my banelings since I can just burrow them until an actual engagement happens. That would help so much, allowing me to use apm that I would use to micro away my banelings on macro. The only con is that zerglings could run right by them if I'm not paying attention. Eh this burrow change I highly doubt will change early game zvz at all. That 100 gas could be used on lair and with how zvz is so muta dominated right now you could be delaying your lair longer then needs be. I can see early burrow being very useful zvt, and potentially zvp, but not zvz xD. | ||
|
Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On January 18 2013 08:54 InfCereal wrote: Hence why you target down the cannons. Once the cannons are gone the roaches can heal. And about the time, for the roach all-in you would get burrow instead of ling speed, so it would finish when that roughly would.Cannons are detectors, the burrowed roaches would still die. This upgrade is 100/100 and takes 110 seconds to build. I think blocking expos might be a big optimistic. | ||
|
Divinite
United States1 Post
User was warned for this post | ||
|
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
| ||
|
FLuE
United States1012 Posts
The reaper change helps Terran scout and know its coming and fast siege will in general deter a lot of all ins. Toss might risk losing their early cannon but they can always drop a 2nd fast when they see the pressure. Since toss can get detection with robo or stargate the chance of getting there before something that can detect is out is slim. Nice change in that it might encourage people to use burrow more but overall this wont change most games. | ||
|
Embraced
Germany3 Posts
| ||
|
zERG_bONG
United States4 Posts
this will force terran to burn scans instead of drop mules. against protoss, if you can snipe cannons, that'd pretty much negate the mamacore, wouldn't it? they can't detect anymore correct? against zerg, i think i'd rather opt for baneling bombs as defense with spines to defend against roach pushes. has anyone seen any pros or high level players mess with this upgrade yet? | ||
|
MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:05 emc wrote: A lot of people are saying roaches, but I think banelings will benefit most. Zerg can go banelings without ling speed and getting burrow and using banelings for map control. Even if Zerg doesn't have the best well placed banelings, in all match ups, every race will be afraid to move out if they know you have banelings and burrow until they have mobile detection. The problem is that you're getting that expensive stuff that works only IF the guy goes bio and walks out with his army early. With a roach timing, however, you're forcing the issue. You're getting burrow and you know it'll be useful because it'll help you attack. This is most likely the better use. | ||
|
Aaarrrgh
4 Posts
| ||
|
Fenris420
Sweden213 Posts
It might see some use in defending two bases from early game harassment, like some kind of warp gate pressure or hellion/marines. Overall I think it is better for defense than for offense, but we will see. | ||
|
RedHaZard
Australia56 Posts
I've been playing since Wol and making burrow hatch tech isn't going to make it any better or fix any of the other problems zerg has. getting burrow early means delaying something else which in this meta we know is much needed like Lair, Upgrades, etc getting burrow and bane nest early just to get bane bombs is border line all in if they do nothing | ||
|
Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On January 18 2013 09:10 Sayscho BoB wrote: Maybe something like this? Last time this got ignored =( And what if the Terran does just walk over your lings like that? You now have slowlings that can burrow and get destroyed by marines. | ||
|
Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
On January 18 2013 08:17 Ben... wrote: Very potent roach rushes against Protoss where you target down cannons then burrow roaches when they are getting low health. No more fast thirds for Protoss or Terran without committing something to getting detection. ha. burrow vs cannons. Doubt that would work. | ||
|
usethis2
2164 Posts
| ||
|
Esper
United States87 Posts
Burrow + Lings doesn't really do anything except blocking expansions in which case you've damaged your economy just as much by grabbing the research so early. Burrowed banelings that early is just too much of a dice roll. Roach rushing has nice synergy with a burrow rush, but that's an extraordinary amount to spend. Consider the gas alone is 4 less roaches from your rush. Not to mention roaches are so slow that you run into the same issue hydras have off creep without a speed upgrade. Ultimately Zerg needs more ancillary components to make burrow a viable strategic decision. I would personally rather have burrow be at Lair tech still but be an automatic upgrade once Lair completes, the same way Overlords gain the generate creep ability. That makes Lair roach speed rushes deadly, allows the blocking of expansions at the exact same time but without "sacrificing" an Overlord, and could even make early drop play better by extending the longevity of the dropped units by forcing a scan, or allowing for health regen, etc. | ||
|
Leviance
Germany4079 Posts
| ||
| ||
|
|
Sparkling Tuna Cup
Afreeca Starleague
Soulkey vs Ample
JyJ vs sSak
Replay Cast
Afreeca Starleague
hero vs YSC
Larva vs Shine
Kung Fu Cup
Replay Cast
KCM Race Survival
The PondCast
WardiTV Team League
Replay Cast
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
