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On January 18 2013 13:25 FataLe wrote:
holy shit the void ray timer thing really rustles my jimmies.
a good player will pay attention and even bait out the ability, wait for the charge to die then proceed to attack.
dafuq are they thinking, they're babying the micro for noobies.
well, their point is that, no one regardless of skill level, not even the pros, is baiting the ability as the game stands right now.
but I think they're wrong about why. pros aren't dumb, they know when charge happens.
the issue is that voids have a unique feature where when they attack something, if that unit tries to retreat the void range extends to follow them. it was added in WoL because Voids needed to charge up by sustained attack. But now that charge is triggered, its having the exact opposite effect from what Blizzard wants, which is to discourage the exact baiting you describe and they say they want.
solution: remove extended range. simple as hell, and does a lot more to encourage baiting and retreating than any timer will.
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On January 18 2013 13:25 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 13:24 avilo wrote:So, even easier mode now to power to 60 drones. And if you get in trouble ever, you now can essentially cloak them all.  This hardly makes it easier to power to 60 drones.
Wrong. With burrow at hatchery tech (100/100 is incredibly easy to afford) now you can 3 base 60-70 drone with burrowed banelings/burrowed ling traps + the THREAT of it.
It's going to be much easier to drone up, which is bad.
It may not seem that impactful at first, but neither did the +2 queen range / overlord speed to people that did not have the foresight to understand how bad those changes were.
The burrow change is terrible.
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I don't like it, because it can give Zerg too much scouting power too early. They can basically burrow a handful of Zerglings near the opponent and know when they will move out. Zerg already have the biggest maphack of them all - creep - and this just has the potential to give them very early scouting in the opponents half of the map.
This will also "revolutionize" early ZvZ by enabling Baneling mines ... making Zerglings rather useless / risky as an attacking strategy. You can have a detector only with Lair tech, so attacking wont work unless you know where your opponent burrowed his defensive Banelings. This kills part of the excitement of ZvZ ... the "who gets a good Baneling hit?" part.
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Also i'm surprised the tempest is still at 4 supply instead of put back up to 6 or even 8. Mass tempests in Protoss lategame is not fun, nor entertaining to watch or play/play against. Not to mention Z lategame has no answer to it, and T mech as well has no answer.
What is going on? So much stuff to be addressed that isn't, TVP mech viability COUGHS*
But I guess the order of importance is +10 reaper HP first...
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I think they just want people to research burrow. It's a cool ability that doesn't get used. Well, almost never. I think they might change it back or do some kind of nerf to after people do powerful stuff with it.
Whatever happened to burrow-movement on banelings? Or the speedboost on Battlecrusiers?: (
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On January 18 2013 13:33 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 13:25 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 18 2013 13:24 avilo wrote:So, even easier mode now to power to 60 drones. And if you get in trouble ever, you now can essentially cloak them all. This hardly makes it easier to power to 60 drones. Wrong. With burrow at hatchery tech (100/100 is incredibly easy to afford) now you can 3 base 60-70 drone with burrowed banelings/burrowed ling traps + the THREAT of it. It's going to be much easier to drone up, which is bad. It may not seem that impactful at first, but neither did the +2 queen range / overlord speed to people that did not have the foresight to understand how bad those changes were. The burrow change is terrible.
Its not like its free. Its 100/100, and eats up 100 seconds of hatch time. That isn't a minor investment for a Zerg who wants to power econ--its a bigger hit than Ling speed (same cost, but researching from the hatch has more economic drawbacks), and we all know Zergs who really want to powerdrone always skip Ling Speed until like the 7 or 8 minute mark at the earliest.
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On January 18 2013 13:35 avilo wrote:
Also i'm surprised the tempest is still at 4 supply instead of put back up to 6 or even 8. Mass tempests in Protoss lategame is not fun, nor entertaining to watch or play/play against. Not to mention Z lategame has no answer to it, and T mech as well has no answer.
What is going on? So much stuff to be addressed that isn't, TVP mech viability COUGHS*
But I guess the order of importance is +10 reaper HP first...
mass tempest? what are you talking about? tempest get smoked by void rays, who also wreck stalkers. most PvPs these days seem to come down to either mass Voids if one guy goes air, or Phoenix wars over air dominance if they both do.
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On January 18 2013 13:27 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 13:25 FataLe wrote:
holy shit the void ray timer thing really rustles my jimmies.
a good player will pay attention and even bait out the ability, wait for the charge to die then proceed to attack.
dafuq are they thinking, they're babying the micro for noobies. well, their point is that, no one regardless of skill level, not even the pros, is baiting the ability as the game stands right now. but I think they're wrong about why. pros aren't dumb, they know when charge happens. the issue is that voids have a unique feature where when they attack something, if that unit tries to retreat the void range extends to follow them. it was added in WoL because Voids needed to charge up by sustained attack. But now that charge is triggered, its having the exact opposite effect from what Blizzard wants, which is to discourage the exact baiting you describe and they say they want. solution: remove extended range. simple as hell, and does a lot more to encourage baiting and retreating than any timer will.
lol i played desrow a week ago (I have the replay saved) where I went voidray archon chargelot. After the game I went back and watched the vod from his stream and basically he was telling the guy on skype that he's trying to bait the ability and it's evident in the replay.
on top of that, it's the beta and they're the first people to say hold on guys, we'll give it a little time and you'll be able to figure it out yourselves, if you can't then we'll change it sometime down the line. basically what they've done here is dumbed it down because they weren't seeing immediate results (when in fact, they were still present)
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On January 18 2013 13:33 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 13:25 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 18 2013 13:24 avilo wrote:So, even easier mode now to power to 60 drones. And if you get in trouble ever, you now can essentially cloak them all. This hardly makes it easier to power to 60 drones. Wrong. With burrow at hatchery tech (100/100 is incredibly easy to afford) now you can 3 base 60-70 drone with burrowed banelings/burrowed ling traps + the THREAT of it. It's going to be much easier to drone up, which is bad. It may not seem that impactful at first, but neither did the +2 queen range / overlord speed to people that did not have the foresight to understand how bad those changes were. The burrow change is terrible.
While 100/100 isn't necessarily hard to afford, it's still something. If you're getting burrow, you're delaying your lair, or speed, or both. As it is right now, it's already easy to power up to 60 drones without really losing many - 100/100 would only hinder this powering, which is the reason many Zergs don't get Zergling speed early on. They delay it til the last possible moment, even though it offers amazing potential for counter attacks, etc.
At best you could have a burrowed baneling rush - however, this will have minimal impact vs hellions unless the hellions are going for a runby. The threat you mention is probably the biggest setback, just as the threat of widow mines exist even if Terran does not go for them.
On January 18 2013 13:40 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 13:35 avilo wrote:
Also i'm surprised the tempest is still at 4 supply instead of put back up to 6 or even 8. Mass tempests in Protoss lategame is not fun, nor entertaining to watch or play/play against. Not to mention Z lategame has no answer to it, and T mech as well has no answer.
What is going on? So much stuff to be addressed that isn't, TVP mech viability COUGHS*
But I guess the order of importance is +10 reaper HP first... mass tempest? what are you talking about? tempest get smoked by void rays, who also wreck stalkers. most PvPs these days seem to come down to either mass Voids if one guy goes air, or Phoenix wars over air dominance if they both do.
Most likely he wasn't referring to PvP.
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the void ray charge is very visible.
the problem is how do you bait out the charge ability, you can't always pull back in an engagement because you would be losing way too much already, plus you might lose out a favorable concave position.
The burrow upgrade I am not sure about as well.
100/100 is a HUGE investment, especially because it is researched at Hatch. You have to get gas AND stop queen production, meaning weaker early defense and less creep spread.
IMO, mid game is where burrow shines, with baneling landmine, ling blocking expo, burrow ling for vision, burrow roach, burrow drones against drops etc.
I can't see much reason to get it early at hatch level unless you are going for some chessy play (maybe burrow roach timing attack?)
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Most likely he wasn't referring to PvP.
There isn't any matchup in HotS in which the metagame for Protoss could be accurately described as "mass tempest". Terran still go bio more often than not and while a couple Tempests for Medivac sniping are nice if you can afford them, they really aren't a great way to handle Terran bio. Its really only in PvZ where you see a lot of Tempests, and even then I'd hardly describe it as "mass Tempest", more like a supporting force to go with Voids and HTs.
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tier 1 burrowed roaches are just retarded now that mothership core cant detect
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These changes are quite good, but I would have preferred siege tank damage buff, gas cost reduction for the reaper, and a widow mine change as well.
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avilo complaining, nothing new here
imho the patch is fairly ok
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On January 18 2013 13:33 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 13:25 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 18 2013 13:24 avilo wrote:So, even easier mode now to power to 60 drones. And if you get in trouble ever, you now can essentially cloak them all. This hardly makes it easier to power to 60 drones. Wrong. With burrow at hatchery tech (100/100 is incredibly easy to afford).
See, this is why you cant be taken seriously.
Edit : Considering how hard you cried about the queen buff, you of all people should know what's an exponential investment
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On January 18 2013 13:33 Rabiator wrote:
They can basically burrow a handful of Zerglings near the opponent and know when they will move out.
What, like sticking a 25 mineral, 1/2 supply zergling outside the opponent's ramp in WoL? Who needs burrow for that?
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increasing the void rays supply wont make them less powerful =/
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On January 18 2013 14:18 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 13:33 Rabiator wrote:
They can basically burrow a handful of Zerglings near the opponent and know when they will move out. What, like sticking a 25 mineral, 1/2 supply zergling outside the opponent's ramp in WoL? Who needs burrow for that?
When you kill a zergling you know the other player saw you.
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On January 18 2013 13:52 awesomoecalypse wrote:There isn't any matchup in HotS in which the metagame for Protoss could be accurately described as "mass tempest". Terran still go bio more often than not and while a couple Tempests for Medivac sniping are nice if you can afford them, they really aren't a great way to handle Terran bio. Its really only in PvZ where you see a lot of Tempests, and even then I'd hardly describe it as "mass Tempest", more like a supporting force to go with Voids and HTs.
Stop using the word metagame if you don't understand it properly.
Mass tempest + HT is a "super composition" which the other races lack the proper tools to deal with.
They produce way too fast, so I'm not even sure that avilo's fix would be the right one.
Imo they need to make them more expensive and way slower to build.
It is not cool with a massable 15 range air unit.
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On January 18 2013 13:53 IamPryda wrote:
tier 1 burrowed roaches are just retarded now that mothership core cant detect
What exactly is retarded about them? The health regen has to be researched, burrow movement has to be researched. Both of those are t2.
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EPT
