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On December 16 2012 15:55 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote:
Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk. I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now.
cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster.
The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently.
Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range.
you know what i am saying is true.
Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia.
its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point:
Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range.
and Undo the past nerfs to the unit.
Anymore simple and its using Collosi.
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On December 16 2012 16:09 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 15:55 Crawdad wrote:On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote:
Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk. I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now. cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster. The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently. Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range. you know what i am saying is true. Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia. its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point: Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit. Anymore simple and its using Collosi.
No, w/ range upgrade AND speed boost, Zs can do hydra roach rushes like in WoL beta again. ;(
No, just no.
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On December 16 2012 16:18 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 16:09 Zergrusher wrote:On December 16 2012 15:55 Crawdad wrote:On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote:
Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk. I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now. cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster. The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently. Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range. you know what i am saying is true. Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia. its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point: Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit. Anymore simple and its using Collosi. No, w/ range upgrade AND speed boost, Zs can do hydra roach rushes like in WoL beta again. ;( No, just no.
The Problem was the roach in the beta, if you think for a second you would realise this.
The hydralisk got nerfed for no reason, when it was the roach back then that was the problem.
Want to know why the roach even exists? Because Of the small maps,the better marines, and warp gate mechanic, zerg needed a durable unit to survive it all.
the 1 supply was to make this unit feel Swarmy, but its 2 armor was for the durability.
how they nerfed it is pretty funny all they did was switch the supply cost with the armor level.
So you can thank the roach for 2 things
1) Making the hydralisk be worse
2) No more hatch tech burrow.
The roach truely was Zergs "savoir" back in beta in more ways then one. The infestor became the bandaid unit when hydralisk got worse and ultralisk just didn't do good splash damage( they still don't and I'll make a post about this in due time).
Deep down you know what i am saying is true, and theres also plenty of information and gameplay that proves it.
oh and 1 last thing The roach Hydra pushes were strong BECAUSE THE ROACH WAS STRONG.
and don't you find it funny how people say "roach hydra" and "infestor Broodlord" theres a reason why the roach and infestor are put first, because they caused the most problems/are problems.
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Ultras are Zerg colossi in HoTs except without cliff-walk and targetable by air.
Did I mention the 5 armor and any ranged unit will be creamed when hit FG and B.cloud?
Auto-win button is back for Zerg.
BW circle of IMBA is back. I like it. 
User was warned for this post
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Skytoss.
Sky terran.
Ultralisks cannot shoot up. GG
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On December 16 2012 16:24 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 16:18 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On December 16 2012 16:09 Zergrusher wrote:On December 16 2012 15:55 Crawdad wrote:On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote:
Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk. I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now. cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster. The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently. Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range. you know what i am saying is true. Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia. its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point: Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit. Anymore simple and its using Collosi. No, w/ range upgrade AND speed boost, Zs can do hydra roach rushes like in WoL beta again. ;( No, just no. The Problem was the roach in the beta, if you think for a second you would realise this. The hydralisk got nerfed for no reason, when it was the roach back then that was the problem. Want to know why the roach even exists? Because Of the small maps,the better marines, and warp gate mechanic, zerg needed a durable unit to survive it all. the 1 supply was to make this unit feel Swarmy, but its 2 armor was for the durability. how they nerfed it is pretty funny all they did was switch the supply cost with the armor level. So you can thank the roach for 2 things 1) Making the hydralisk be worse 2) No more hatch tech burrow. The roach truely was Zergs "savoir" back in beta in more ways then one. The infestor became the bandaid unit when hydralisk got worse and ultralisk just didn't do good splash damage( they still don't and I'll make a post about this in due time). Deep down you know what i am saying is true, and theres also plenty of information and gameplay that proves it. oh and 1 last thing The roach Hydra pushes were strong BECAUSE THE ROACH WAS STRONG. and don't you find it funny how people say "roach hydra" and "infestor Broodlord" theres a reason why the roach and infestor are put first, because they caused the most problems/are problems.
Sorry, apart from the part with the WoL beta nerfs, everything you write is just speculation.
The roach was probably long time in the game before blizzard really thought about whether the maps they were using would be balanced. (they actually commented a cuple of times that they are surprised about tournaments still using some of their maps)
Burrow tech might have gone to Lair just because OLs aren't Detectors anymore (burrow blocking Hatcheries) or because of banelings. After all, in the first alpha variations, roaches did regenerate unburrowed as well and the burrowregeneration was implemented after burrow was already at lair.
The Roach/Hydra pushes were strong. But would they be bad for the game these days? I mean, people keep on commenting (and I agree) that Zerg should be that swarmy race that sends wave after wave and uses its superior production, instead of turtling to a better techball... Well, in such a game pushes like roach/hydra MUST be possible. Even more they MUST be able to do reasonable damage.
Also, are they worse gameplaywise than the new variation that is a direct result of the roach changes - 200/200 roach? After all, with 3range roaches (instead of the 4range that was a compensation for the 2supply), the firepower of bigger roach balls would be roughly 3/4th of the recent situation. (though I do believe 2supply is fine. But I'm heavily questioning the 4range and thinking about how awesome marines and chargelots or zealots with FF support are against roaches these days, the 1armor).
For the Hydralisk, I wouldn't be too sure that they still suck. Like, Acer_Bly did some cool 2base Hydra expand builds in WoL (hydras instead of roaches) and with the new lairspeed, you can now do those builds and afterwards go out on the map with hydras and attack walls/front line zealots. If the army comes out, you retreat (something that wasn't possible before).
I do agree that roach/hydra in the lategame is still in a really awkward spot - it is one of the worst maxed army compositions in the game. And though Viper/Infestor/Corruptor support is possible, I do believe that you still must switch completly out of the core composition and go 100% Hivetech/Infestor to stand a chance against Gateway+Tech and Biomech/Mech compositions - not just in direct combat, but also in real gameplay.
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Zerg have more than just Hydralisks to deal with air and if Terran "mech" are told to build Vikings to deal with air then you can be asked to build Mutalisks as well. Corruptors, Queens and Spore Crawlers arent half bad either at dealing with air. Vipers are a nice new option in HotS to deal with slow and big air units.
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On December 16 2012 21:54 Rabiator wrote:
Zerg have more than just Hydralisks to deal with air and if Terran "mech" are told to build Vikings to deal with air then you can be asked to build Mutalisks as well. Corruptors, Queens and Spore Crawlers arent half bad either at dealing with air. Vipers are a nice new option in HotS to deal with slow and big air units.
Agreed. Just... who are you responding to?
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On December 16 2012 22:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 21:54 Rabiator wrote:
Zerg have more than just Hydralisks to deal with air and if Terran "mech" are told to build Vikings to deal with air then you can be asked to build Mutalisks as well. Corruptors, Queens and Spore Crawlers arent half bad either at dealing with air. Vipers are a nice new option in HotS to deal with slow and big air units. Agreed. Just... who are you responding to?
Mainly Zergrusher and his "boohoo ... undo the nerfs to Hydralisks" comments, but others argue with him about the "Hydra details" while not seeing the "big picture" (of Zerg having enough good AA) so I didnt quote ...
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On December 16 2012 02:46 mati wrote:
right now every zerg MU goes around the infestor... it does make some nice show to watch (micro intensive)
Bit wrong on your terminology. Smart-casting isn't considered micro intensive; in fact it's designed to virtually not take any micro at all. Unless you mean it makes the opponent micro, though Protoss doesn't really split their units because they're so beefy anyways.
On December 16 2012 16:24 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 16:18 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On December 16 2012 16:09 Zergrusher wrote:On December 16 2012 15:55 Crawdad wrote:On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote:
Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk. I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now. cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster. The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently. Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range. you know what i am saying is true. Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia. its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point: Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit. Anymore simple and its using Collosi. No, w/ range upgrade AND speed boost, Zs can do hydra roach rushes like in WoL beta again. ;( No, just no. The Problem was the roach in the beta, if you think for a second you would realise this. The hydralisk got nerfed for no reason, when it was the roach back then that was the problem. Want to know why the roach even exists? Because Of the small maps,the better marines, and warp gate mechanic, zerg needed a durable unit to survive it all. the 1 supply was to make this unit feel Swarmy, but its 2 armor was for the durability. how they nerfed it is pretty funny all they did was switch the supply cost with the armor level. So you can thank the roach for 2 things 1) Making the hydralisk be worse 2) No more hatch tech burrow. The roach truely was Zergs "savoir" back in beta in more ways then one. The infestor became the bandaid unit when hydralisk got worse and ultralisk just didn't do good splash damage( they still don't and I'll make a post about this in due time). Deep down you know what i am saying is true, and theres also plenty of information and gameplay that proves it. oh and 1 last thing The roach Hydra pushes were strong BECAUSE THE ROACH WAS STRONG. and don't you find it funny how people say "roach hydra" and "infestor Broodlord" theres a reason why the roach and infestor are put first, because they caused the most problems/are problems.
Can we just remove the roach?
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On December 16 2012 16:09 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 15:55 Crawdad wrote:On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote:
Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk. I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now. cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster. The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently. Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range. you know what i am saying is true. Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia. its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point: Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit. Anymore simple and its using Collosi.
I was also asking for that buff all time. But honestly, after many beta games, i think the hydra would be a bit too scary, especially in zvp, with just one upgrade. I dont think it would change the viability in ZvT at all, they are and will be crap if you dont play vs mech. In zvz and zvp hydras are really good now. The two upgrades also force a decision from you and doesnt allow you to attack quite as fast as you might would like to. Still, there are timings before certain key units are out, so you still can go aggressive/allin with them. Maybe they should reduce the cost of both upgrades a little bit, i dont think that it needs to be changed though at all.
I still really would like a way to buff the hydra for zvt, i just dont see an answer without hydras being too strong in zvp.
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What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk?
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On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote:
What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk?
And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack.
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On December 16 2012 23:26 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote:
What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk? And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack.
They can be used for assault attacks the same way lings can. Zerg is about overwhelming with numbers not having huge meaty units.
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I tried hydra viper in zvt.
They were terrible. I mean the blinding cloud kicks ass even vs bio you get a good advantage if you have enough blinding clouds. The enemy runs around while you shoot them. Combined with fungal blinding cloud is probably instant death for a caught army.
But the hydralisk itself is like the most uneffective unit vs terran ever. It's really almost ridiculous how basically every terran unit kills ultralisks cost for cost.
But in zvp the hydralisk kicks total ass since gateway units are crap and forcefields don't help as much vs the long range. Without collossus you simply always die to hydra. No options there.
I would vote for +1 additional range on the hydra WITH the range upgrade, that would help vs air and possibly vs collossi as well.
The other option would be 1 supply hydras which I think would be cool, but for that we would need a toss gateway unit buff and maybe a siegetank buff (although bio could handle that no problem).
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I totally agree with the latest post. Give hydras +2 range instead of just 1.
The other options presented here are bad cause would make all-ins too powerfull.
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On December 16 2012 23:36 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 23:26 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote:
What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk? And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack. They can be used for assault attacks the same way lings can. Zerg is about overwhelming with numbers not having huge meaty units.
No they can't, because they cost too much for what they can do. Nobody will use Hydras for those kind of things, and that is the reason why you don't see pure Hydra, but support with cheap units that soak up damage for them, like Lings or Roaches.
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On December 17 2012 01:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 23:36 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 16 2012 23:26 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote:
What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk? And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack. They can be used for assault attacks the same way lings can. Zerg is about overwhelming with numbers not having huge meaty units. No they can't, because they cost too much for what they can do. Nobody will use Hydras for those kind of things, and that is the reason why you don't see pure Hydra, but support with cheap units that soak up damage for them, like Lings or Roaches.
Hydralisks are cheap, and with Zerg's insane production boosts they can be mass produced like any other unit.
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On December 17 2012 00:56 StarscreamG1 wrote:
I totally agree with the latest post. Give hydras +2 range instead of just 1.
The other options presented here are bad cause would make all-ins too powerfull.
And move the range upgrade to hivetech. 7range hydras on lairtech are ridicolous overpowered. Especially if you have a speedupgrade there as well 
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On December 17 2012 01:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 01:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 16 2012 23:36 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 16 2012 23:26 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote:
What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk? And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack. They can be used for assault attacks the same way lings can. Zerg is about overwhelming with numbers not having huge meaty units. No they can't, because they cost too much for what they can do. Nobody will use Hydras for those kind of things, and that is the reason why you don't see pure Hydra, but support with cheap units that soak up damage for them, like Lings or Roaches. Hydralisks are cheap, and with Zerg's insane production mechanics they can be mass produced like any other unit.
Hydralisks are cheap? You are either a bad troll or don't know what you are talking about. Nobody is talking about mass production, if I have the money, I can mass produce the Ultralisks, that doesn't mean that they are cheap.
Hydras are 100/50/2, and there are few units that they don't lose straight up fight to. One Hydra is strong as two Marines when they are at 0-0 upgrades, except that it doesn't have a stim, but +1 range and a bit less HP. When the upgrades start to kick in, one Hydra has even less HP than two Marines, worse DPS, Mobility, everything.
With addition of speed at lair tech, they are average support range units at best.
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EPT
