EPTBeta Balance Update #9 - Page 36
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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Heavenfallz
Australia73 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On December 15 2012 12:57 playa wrote: It's kind of hard to comment on mutas atm. Everyone seems to make too many. It plays out exactly the same as doom drops in z vs t in BW. Turtle in your base until you know you will win the "base trade" game. I'd rather win a base trade kinda game than make phoenixes. Even if they did counter the mutas, I'm left with dead weight. For as much as people want to call the corruptor useless, I'm pretty sure they can morph into one of the best units in the mu, if not the best. Phoenix, meh. Actually the new oracle + phoenix is a direct soft counter to muta/ling. A rush to the front door of your natural with a well prepared force will rip to shreds the mutas while oracles clean up the lings. | ||
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arcane1129
United States273 Posts
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On December 15 2012 12:57 playa wrote:For as much as people want to call the corruptor useless, I'm pretty sure they can morph into one of the best units in the mu, if not the best. You mean the MU where Tempests exist? | ||
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Mr. Nefarious
United States515 Posts
 . They are completely broken now in ZvZ, and the game simply who was able to bank 100 gas more than the other by the time the spire finishes. I have to say with lings becoming irrelevant in HOTS non-mirrors and the boring, awful roach becoming the go-to unit in all matchups, I've found more time to play DOTA 2 than ever before. I can't stand how for the first 16 minutes of the game I'm just playing WOL and how most of our changes revolved around making WOL units not complete trash (Hydra/Ultra). | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12047 Posts
If you're high on the muta count and constantly hurassing you'll be able to see when he starts getting a fleet beacon and either stop his production completely or snipe the tempests with your mutas. | ||
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On December 15 2012 10:56 Kyuki wrote: God! It's so annoying to read about how zerg seem to think they don't have tech options like terran and toss to motivate burrow at hatch tech... I'm fine with burrow at hatch, that's how it's been in the past. Just increase the upgrade back to 100 gas and it should be reasonable. Maybe. My issue though is that zergs here think that they don't have any options now and that they should be able to just get away with extremely low gas costs and still be able to put pressure on, lika that was true for terran and toss. It isn't! Tech openings are heavy investments in gas. Always. A few examples in pure gas cost: Protoss DT- 150 + 225 = 375 Protoss blink - 150 + 150 = 300 Terran cloak banshee - 100 + 100 + 25 + 200 = 425 Terran Hellion - 100 + 25 = 125 Terran tank - 100 + 25 + 150 = 275 Zerg muta - 100 + 200 = 300 Zerg baneling - 25 Zerg infestor - 100 + 150 = 250 None of the above ways to tech even consider the cost of gas units you need to defend yourself (mainly for toss) or the sacrifice in Eco etc which is present for ALL races when you tech. WoL beta and early days was full of early zerg pressure and tech. Had to be balanced of due to inject but it was still present. I still face early muta in the masters which is tricksy as he'll since it throws you off completely. Reason why so few utilize early zerg pressure is because it's harder to pull off than to just play standard not because the options are nay! People seem stuck in "how things work" instead of just thinking more holistically. My 2 copper Thing is, Zerg needs a lot more gas for units to be effective with these tech choices. You don't need >10 DTs, tanks or banshees to do damage. Stalkers don't cost as much gas, hellions cost none at all. Yet the zerg needs >10 mutas (1000 gas) or >5 infestors (750 gas) to be efficient. | ||
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doggy
Germany306 Posts
In ZvZ and ZvT i always go muta ling bling into ultra ling, seems so incredibly strong with the new regeneration and fungal. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 15 2012 20:31 Conti wrote: Thing is, Zerg needs a lot more gas for units to be effective with these tech choices. You don't need >10 DTs, tanks or banshees to do damage. Stalkers don't cost as much gas, hellions cost none at all. Yet the zerg needs >10 mutas (1000 gas) or >5 infestors (750 gas) to be efficient. Na, 3mutas are really good if you can hit with them 6-7mins (like Terran banshees). The real "problem": Production capacity: If you wanted to do something similar to a banshee opening, what are the costs to get there: 250spawning pool, 150/100lair, 250/200 spire = 650/300. With that investment, you are allowed to build mutas/drones/OLs/Queens/buildings - of 10 larva per minute (not even counting the queen as cost). Compare that to a Terran that goes Factory, Barracks, Starport = 450/200: ~3.5 SCVs, 2 hellions, 2.4 marines, 1banshee per minute, as many supply depots and buildings as you can afford. You are simply going to get completly outproduced and if you don't build a hatch as one of your first buildings. So you go hatch+pool and you already have quite higher tech costs (and lair/spire take quite longer to build then the Terran techs), but you also have to justify that hatch investment - imagine a Terran building 3raxes "just in case" he needed defense, and then going into banshee... So you simply have to delay everything to the point, where every tech build becomes an economy build. And that's actually what annoys me most with recent Zerg playstyles. If you don't play greedy with 3 fast bases, you are more vulnurable, then if you just build drones and compensate losses with more production/income. I guess, due to banelings and roaches blizzard thought that zerg would have quite some aggressive potential. And they were right. But due to how low ranged those units are, it's impossible to do something with them early on, without allinning, (as long as the opponent walls). | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
Void ray, tempest, and carrier have so much overlap it doesn't make ANY sense. Protoss doesn't need SEVEN flying units (including phoenix, oracle, observer, mothership) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 15 2012 23:40 Honeybadger wrote: the tempest is such a shit unit design from the getgo, just like the warhound was. It's a shitty idea to implement hard counters when we've seen from WOL that they're a nightmare to balance, boring to watch, and boring to use. Void ray, tempest, and carrier have so much overlap it doesn't make ANY sense. Protoss doesn't need SEVEN flying units (including phoenix, oracle, observer, mothership) One unit per Terran unit that can fight air: Marine, Ghost, Thor, Widow Mine, Viking, Raven, BC  | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On December 15 2012 23:55 Big J wrote: One unit per Terran unit that can fight air: Marine, Ghost, Thor, Widow Mine, Viking, Raven, BC And 0.1 units for how many drones Zerg has at the 7 minute mark for free: 70 I'm not sure how sly comments on Terran are relevant to the terrible game design of a unit like the Tempest like the poster you were quoting brought up. When the Warhound (similar to the roach) was being discussed as having bad game design did you list out how many units could hit it? | ||
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kaNt-
163 Posts
Tempest/phoenix aren´t good vs mass mutas. Toss only can rely on HT´s, and now the mutas are faster so they can avoid storms easily and even their regen is buffed? Blizzard please think before making these kind of buffs, or at least give toss a reliable AoE (unlike storm). User was warned for this post | ||
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kaNt-
163 Posts
On December 16 2012 00:51 kaNt- wrote: Protoss NEEDS a good counter to mutas NOW! Tempest/phoenix aren´t good vs mass mutas. Toss only can rely on HT´s, and now the mutas are faster so they can avoid storms easily and even their regen is buffed? Blizzard please think before making these kind of buffs, or at least give toss a reliable AoE (unlike storm). Now zerg can happily mass mutas and expand 20 times and toss has to turtle... GOOD JOB BLIZZ! | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
I think its a pretty good unit for a number of reasons. 1.) It isn't gimmicky. No abilities, no summoned mini-units, no cliffwalking. It flies, it has an attack with long cooldown and long range. Easy as hell to instantly understand and visually process, even for the newest spectator, and in general I think the game is already getting pretty heavy on spellcasters and abilities, so units that do their job without either are welcome. 2.) It doesn't contribute to a giant clump in your main army. I mean, you can do that, but then you're wasting their range and using them suboptimally. Ideally, you want them controlled in a separate control group and kept somewhat behind your main army. Visually, this is just much more enjoyable to watch then one big deathball. Its also more fun to control, which brings me to my next point. 3.) They promote better control and tactics on both sides. You want them spread enough to minimize splash vulnerability, you want a certain amount of focus fire...but not too much because they'll overkill like crazy vs. a lot of units, and with their long cooldown overkill just destroys their effective dps. In response, they promote stuff like flanking with muta swarms, or marine drops in the back line (much more feasible with the new medivac speed). This is vastly more interesting than giant clump vs giant clump. Its more fun to play as well. 4.) They have a clear role, but aren't one dimensional. They will probably be most used as a "second line", not right with your main army but trailing a little ways behind it to provide support sniping capital ships, colossi, and if those aren't around, then casters and other priority units. But their long range also makes them good at forcing engagements, which synergizes well with some other Toss abilities--for example, the Void Ray charge is on a timer, so once the opponent has baited it, it can be to their benefit to pull back until it wears off. Tempests can punish that a bit. They also in theory have a certain amount of harass potential in supporting other air units with minimal risk to the Tempest itself. The thing is, I think the Tempest was all of the above things before this patch. Was anyone going, "man, Tempests would be good, but they just don't do enough damage to capital ships"? I don't think so. This sort of comes out of the blue and as a Protoss player even I don't think its necessary. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On December 16 2012 00:51 kaNt- wrote: Protoss NEEDS a good counter to mutas NOW! Tempest/phoenix aren´t good vs mass mutas. Toss only can rely on HT´s, and now the mutas are faster so they can avoid storms easily and even their regen is buffed? Blizzard please think before making these kind of buffs, or at least give toss a reliable AoE (unlike storm). Phoenix destroy mutas. What are you talking about? With their range buff, a single Phoenix with reasonable micro can kill a crazy shitload of mutas. If by some chance they make absolutely silly numbers of mutas, get the range upgrade. Then even basically shitty micro will be enough to kill infinite mutas without taking any damage in return. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 16 2012 00:15 DemigodcelpH wrote: And 0.1 units for how many drones Zerg has at the 7 minute mark for free: 70 I'm not sure how sly comments on Terran are relevant to the terrible game design of a unit like the Tempest like the poster you were quoting brought up. When the Warhound (similar to the roach) was being discussed as having bad game design did you list out how many units could hit it? Lol. Didn't mean any harm, just saw the numbers coincide. (but that's not even true. He forgot MSC and Prism, so it's 9 flyers for Protoss) I don't have a strong opinion on the Tempest right now. I think it can be a great unit. I just think that the numbers are somewhat off currently. And I don't see it overlap too much with VR and Carrier designwise. Carrier is meant to be the bread and butter unit of an airfleet if you face Marine/Stalker/Hydra types of GtA. Tempest is meant as a siege/anti-siege sniper. VR is there to kill armored units. | ||
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