EPTBeta Balance Update #9 - Page 35
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FreedomMurder
Canada200 Posts
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RinconH
United States512 Posts
Why make an annoying unit even more annoying? If they want to make them more powerful, do something that makes them more fun to use and more effective (moving shot, faster acceleration etc). | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On December 15 2012 04:12 RinconH wrote: I too am against the muta regen (even though I play all races). Why make an annoying unit even more annoying? If they want to make them more powerful, do something that makes them more fun to use and more effective (moving shot, faster acceleration etc). Moving shot is almost possible with proper micro. The reason to make this annoying unit even more annoying is because terrans and protoss got better anti-air measures compared to Wol. Mutas need to be stronger to keep harassing a viable option. With the regeneration, mutas should now be useful over quite some time instead of needing to be used within a small timing window. | ||
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Saigon2246
Hungary23 Posts
Why can widow mines attack air??? Why can Tempests attack ground??? | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On December 15 2012 03:59 FreedomMurder wrote: As a protoss player I really do not like the muta regen. Mutas are such a frustrating strategy to deal with already. You cannot attack or the mutas will counter and you lose. Protoss players need those moments when you really deal some damage to the mutas, a good storm or a solid blink and it gives you a window to attack without fearing counter attack. With the regen the window is completely gone and toss will have to turtle for soooo long against mutas. I guess pheonix are the only option now.... That's why phoniex were given buffs to compensate? Seriously, thanks to oracles, phoniex is a viable comp. Mid-early game phoneix/oracle can stand toe to toe with muta/speedlings, thanks to time warp slowing the lings, slowing down their ability to reinforce the mutas as they attack the wall-in while phoneixes deal with the mutas and oracles shred the lings | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On December 15 2012 03:16 ShatterZer0 wrote: I have... unless somehow it's changed from Sunday  Do tell which part has been changed, I tested widow mine sniping/dragging quite strenuously. For like 5 hours. T.T Well... I didn't test it for 5 hours, I'll admit to that :p I'll try to get the exact numbers this evening if I have the time. But from what I tested even with a big number of mutas you can barely kill one mine before they shoot (and only if you clump them; a-moving won't work... So you better be sure it's going to work if you're ever going to try that) . And that's already with more than the initial number of mutas people usually attack with. | ||
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FreedomMurder
Canada200 Posts
On December 15 2012 05:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: That's why phoniex were given buffs to compensate? Seriously, thanks to oracles, phoniex is a viable comp. Mid-early game phoneix/oracle can stand toe to toe with muta/speedlings, thanks to time warp slowing the lings, slowing down their ability to reinforce the mutas as they attack the wall-in while phoneixes deal with the mutas and oracles shred the lings I never said pheonix weren't good enough to deal with mass muta. They are great with the extended range. My problem is say I open up robo or twilight. What do i do now? I turtle the whole game because there will never be an opening for me to attack even if i outplay the muta player and deal a ton of damage to his mutas. He will just fly to the corner of the map and his mutas will regen quite quickly, and then he will have the ability to counter attack again. I think the problem is the widow mine hitting air and the strength of missile turrets. Terran is probably to strong against mutas so blizzard tried to counteract this. As protoss, unless you open stargate you have no chance to be aggressive. The muta regen should atleast be an upgrade that requires something other than a spire.... | ||
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sagefreke
United States241 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 15 2012 05:35 FreedomMurder wrote: I never said pheonix weren't good enough to deal with mass muta. They are great with the extended range. My problem is say I open up robo or twilight. What do i do now? I turtle the whole game because there will never be an opening for me to attack even if i outplay the muta player and deal a ton of damage to his mutas. He will just fly to the corner of the map and his mutas will regen quite quickly, and then he will have the ability to counter attack again. I think the problem is the widow mine hitting air and the strength of missile turrets. Terran is probably to strong against mutas so blizzard tried to counteract this. As protoss, unless you open stargate you have no chance to be aggressive. The muta regen should atleast be an upgrade that requires something other than a spire.... Let's say I open double upgrade speedlings with zerg. 4gate+1/7gate+1/Immortal-Sentry... and I'm dead. Let's say I open 2base mutalisk vs Protoss. Double Stargate and I'm dead. It's not like Protoss is the only race that is suffering BO-losses. Use your new strength - best scouting in the game through hallucination - to circumvent BO-losses. Or if you wanna play blind, go blink or air. Protoss can counter mutas with blink/templar/archon, pre-mutalisk rushes or stargate. I don't see that changing through a little regeneration bonus. But yeah, blind 2-3 base robo builds will (still) lose to mutalisks. Protoss biggest problem with mutas in WoL was scouting them. With free hallucinations, Ps really should not get caught offguard, unless a Zerg does extremly well hiding his spire AND making it look like he hasn't stored ~1000gas. | ||
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FreedomMurder
Canada200 Posts
On December 15 2012 05:45 Big J wrote: Let's say I open double upgrade speedlings with zerg. 4gate+1/7gate+1/Immortal-Sentry... and I'm dead. Let's say I open 2base mutalisk vs Protoss. Double Stargate and I'm dead. It's not like Protoss is the only race that is suffering BO-losses. Use your new strength - best scouting in the game through hallucination - to circumvent BO-losses. Or if you wanna play blind, go blink or air. Protoss can counter mutas with blink/templar/archon, pre-mutalisk rushes or stargate. I don't see that changing through a little regeneration bonus. But yeah, blind 2-3 base robo builds will (still) lose to mutalisks. Protoss biggest problem with mutas in WoL was scouting them. With free hallucinations, Ps really should not get caught offguard, unless a Zerg does extremly well hiding his spire AND making it look like he hasn't stored ~1000gas. I think you are misreading what I am trying to say. I think that you are right, with the new scouting toss will be better able to deal with mutalisks. The problem I see is that this will lead to boring stale games where the protoss is forced to turtle really hard for an extreme amount of time just because now the zerg can ALWAYS counter attack. The timing window to kill zerg when you effectively dealt with the mutas is kind of gone. | ||
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Uni1987
Netherlands642 Posts
On December 15 2012 05:45 Big J wrote: Let's say I open double upgrade speedlings with zerg. 4gate+1/7gate+1/Immortal-Sentry... and I'm dead. Let's say I open 2base mutalisk vs Protoss. Double Stargate and I'm dead. It's not like Protoss is the only race that is suffering BO-losses. Use your new strength - best scouting in the game through hallucination - to circumvent BO-losses. Or if you wanna play blind, go blink or air. Protoss can counter mutas with blink/templar/archon, pre-mutalisk rushes or stargate. I don't see that changing through a little regeneration bonus. But yeah, blind 2-3 base robo builds will (still) lose to mutalisks. Protoss biggest problem with mutas in WoL was scouting them. With free hallucinations, Ps really should not get caught offguard, unless a Zerg does extremly well hiding his spire AND making it look like he hasn't stored ~1000gas. Second this. | ||
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RandomAccount#282689
42 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 15 2012 06:04 FreedomMurder wrote: I think you are misreading what I am trying to say. I think that you are right, with the new scouting toss will be better able to deal with mutalisks. The problem I see is that this will lead to boring stale games where the protoss is forced to turtle really hard for an extreme amount of time just because now the zerg can ALWAYS counter attack. The timing window to kill zerg when you effectively dealt with the mutas is kind of gone. Well, without stargate yes, Protoss will have to turtle hard. But that's the implication of an extremly harass heavy style of the opponent against a very immobile style. I mean, if you decide to go for a rather slow (Protoss ground) army, your weakness is mobility (and even that is not entirely true, due to blink/warp-in and in HotS MSC Recall and better DT options). But yeah, I completly agree. Mutas vs Protoss hasn't made a lot of good games in WoL. But well, ZvP hasn't made a lot of good games, simply because of how little aggressive potential is around, if you don't allin. So I think we should be glad about Oracles, better Phoenix/mutalisk/Void Ray/DT and prebroodlord siege options. If something really proves to be imbalanced/boring, I'd say there is still time until end of 2013 to balance rather heavily. | ||
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On December 15 2012 06:34 Jalued wrote: I really hope that they make the medivac boosters drain energy. That way the terran would have to use it strategically and it would allow toss to feedback the medivacs and stop it from escaping. Currently toss has no real way to prevent drops Correction: the way you currently move your army around on 1 hotkey is not sufficient for dealing with drops. Spread your units out smartly, keep stalkers on the edge, have obs around to spot them, etc. The only thing this really changes is you can punish bad protoss players that have their army on 1 hotkey running around, and you can save some of your units/medivacs when stalkers close in on them. | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
My issue though is that zergs here think that they don't have any options now and that they should be able to just get away with extremely low gas costs and still be able to put pressure on, lika that was true for terran and toss. It isn't! Tech openings are heavy investments in gas. Always. A few examples in pure gas cost: Protoss DT- 150 + 225 = 375 Protoss blink - 150 + 150 = 300 Terran cloak banshee - 100 + 100 + 25 + 200 = 425 Terran Hellion - 100 + 25 = 125 Terran tank - 100 + 25 + 150 = 275 Zerg muta - 100 + 200 = 300 Zerg baneling - 25 Zerg infestor - 100 + 150 = 250 None of the above ways to tech even consider the cost of gas units you need to defend yourself (mainly for toss) or the sacrifice in Eco etc which is present for ALL races when you tech. WoL beta and early days was full of early zerg pressure and tech. Had to be balanced of due to inject but it was still present. I still face early muta in the masters which is tricksy as he'll since it throws you off completely. Reason why so few utilize early zerg pressure is because it's harder to pull off than to just play standard not because the options are nay! People seem stuck in "how things work" instead of just thinking more holistically. My 2 copper | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On December 15 2012 10:56 Kyuki wrote: God! It's so annoying to read about how zerg seem to think they don't have tech options like terran and toss to motivate burrow at hatch tech... I'm fine with burrow at hatch, that's how it's been in the past. Just increase the upgrade back to 100 gas and it should be reasonable. Maybe. Burrow is already 100/100. | ||
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Redfish
United States142 Posts
On December 15 2012 05:36 sagefreke wrote: Why is it mostly Protoss complaining about the Muta buff? Mutas were already figured out by Toss in WoL and Phoenix counter Mutas now more than ever. Let me try and explain it this way. Mutas versus Protoss force turtling and passive play for a time period far longer than anything else in the game. You can't move out or you could lose your whole main or all of your probes to a backstab. What used to be the case was that if you managed to blink a pack of Stalkers under the Muta flock, or hit them with a Storm, you might not kill a lot because they can run away, but at least you get them low and they have to back off for awhile. You could use that time to expand, tech up, add infrastructure, and so forth. However, what Muta healing has done is taken away that buffer time - Mutas can take a hit, back off, and then come back for more a lot sooner, and instead of preparing myself for the late game, I keep having to replenish lost units to take the Muta cloud head on. The Zerg player uses this control to expand all over the map, gain late game tech, stock larva, and so on. Then a large engagement happens where I might be able to kill off a bunch of mutas with a bunch of Stalkers and Storms and Phoenixes, but then the Zerg can instantly remake their army with the counter to what I have (Ultras and Infestors, let's say) and that ends up being the game. I'm all for something needing to be done to make Mutas viable versus Terran and Widow Mines, but I think the approach taken has inadvertently broken PvZ for the time being. And this is coming from a player who got to 1000 wins as Random in WoL playing all races. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9408 Posts
On December 15 2012 06:34 Jalued wrote: I really hope that they make the medivac boosters drain energy. That way the terran would have to use it strategically and it would allow toss to feedback the medivacs and stop it from escaping. Currently toss has no real way to prevent drops i really hope they don't. Using speed boost constantly makes for a more action packed game. (like you get quicker from point a to b). Design wise this is absolutely fantastic. Maybe it's not perfect balance wise though. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On December 15 2012 06:34 Jalued wrote: I really hope that they make the medivac boosters drain energy. That way the terran would have to use it strategically and it would allow toss to feedback the medivacs and stop it from escaping. Currently toss has no real way to prevent drops Except for this ability to build units almost virtually anywhere on the map with no drawback. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
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