|
On December 14 2012 22:45 smidge wrote:
I tried to find the answer in the thread or on Liquipedia, but what is the point of the unburrowed range on the widow mine? What does it do when it isn't burrowed?
I think WM's were attacked by default, but with the new settings if you don't focus fire them, they won't be your default target and your unmicroed units will most likely attack other terran units rather than the mine.
|
On December 14 2012 18:44 doggy wrote:
Just a short question regards widow mines and mutalisks. How many mutalisks does it take to shoot down a mine before it can shoot? Has anyone done some testing?
Since HotS i always go for immediatly overseer with speed while going mutalisks. It feels very worth it, i can drop changelings in positions where they really get in, furthermore i get relatively quick contaminate, which adds really well to the mutalisks. But in my opinion, if you do that and have a huge flock of mutas, mines should do nothing. I hope thats true, anyone did some testing?
Would be too ridiculous if a huge flock of mutas gets killed by 3 mines aka 225/75 cost
Regards zvt, i dont see any way besides going for some kind of midgame muta play. Due the way medivacs are now, you kinda need them to deal with drops. You cant invest a huge amount of static defense + have some ling/roach/bane at each expansion in midgame. Your army will be too weak. But its okay i really like it, especially with the new reg vs thor volleys. the only problem are the widow mines.
I don't mind the widow mine doing so much damage. It raises the skill level needed to play so it's totally fine. Also, why not research overlord speed and send an overlord in to tank the widow mine?
|
On December 14 2012 22:18 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 21:25 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 19:02 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 18:26 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 17:30 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 08:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote:
Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research. You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center. I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't". Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me." It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest. But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too. Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair. ...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build. The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too. Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched? You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on? For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design. Hmm. I can see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure we benefit from asymmetry being enforced to the meta-level of some races being unable to open with econ, army or tech - at least not the degree of asymmetry there is right now. Show nested quote +Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg. I think it's fine to have racial identity through particular strengths, but I don't think Zerg needs to be quite so tightly pigeonholed as 'the one that makes drones or does a roach/baneling bust'. Indeed, I think that's been quite bad for all races: Once upon a time Terrans and Protoss were having a whale of a time coming up with different builds, and Zergs were mostly thrashing around trying not to die to them. I did a search from time to time during the first 18 months of WoL, and virtually all threads about ZvX were discussing the build X was doing and how to stop it. Surviving to the point where you got a decent chance to win was what playing Zerg was all about - I described it at the time as learning to break fists with your face. After some patches and a lot of trial and error, things settled down. But now the game was a lot more boring for T/P. There were endless complaints about how Zergs just had to build a few queens and a couple of roaches to deflect any and all aggression. Most people failed to grasp that this was an inevitable consequence of zerg having so few options early on. If I can only do two easily scoutable things, and you know it and can plan accordingly, those two things have to be a lot stronger and more stable than if I could do ten things and you don't know which one I'm choosing. EDIT: Also, think about how long Zergs tend to spend on hatchery tech compared to Protoss on gateway or Terran on barracks. Then look at the tech available at each Zerg tier (excluding damage/armour ups): Hatchery: Zergling speed Lair: Baneling speed, Roach speed, Tunneling claws, Hydra speed, Hydra range, Infestor energy, neural parasite, enduring locusts, burrow, overlord speed, overlord drop, nydus. Hive: Chitinous plating, adrenal glands It's a bit bloated in the middle, isn't it? It's like, "You will be boring until lair, and then the world is your oyster! Oh, but you won't want to get lair quickly because nothing's useful in small numbers and you can't afford to mass anything on fewer than three bases. So you're gonna be boring for a lot of the time."
I agree very much with your analysis. For quite some time, terrans invented many timings which the zerg had to learn to deflect. I also think that lair tech is too good. You still get vipers, ultras, cracklings and broods at tier 3. Not bad, but to afford those units one needs many bases which need to be defended.
On the other hand, I like that Blizzard tries to keep the races different. Maybe it will be actually viable for a Hots protoss to go straight to air with virtually no ground units. Maybe zerg is doomed to always be the most boring race overall: While one can pressure with swarm hosts and harass with mutas, it's mostly 4sdddddd (if you have hatcheries on '4'.) Another reason is that creep spread takes time, this rewards longer games for the zerg because he can cover large parts of the map with creep.
The greatest issue I see is the watchability. I can accept a quite passive early game as a player, but the viewers want to see action from the get-go. This could somewhat be compensated if the other player harasses the zerg. Then we get at least some action early on. Of course if he also just choose to turtlemacro, we need really competent casters to keep us awake while watching the game.
|
On December 14 2012 22:50 agahamsorr0w wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 18:44 doggy wrote:
Just a short question regards widow mines and mutalisks. How many mutalisks does it take to shoot down a mine before it can shoot? Has anyone done some testing?
Since HotS i always go for immediatly overseer with speed while going mutalisks. It feels very worth it, i can drop changelings in positions where they really get in, furthermore i get relatively quick contaminate, which adds really well to the mutalisks. But in my opinion, if you do that and have a huge flock of mutas, mines should do nothing. I hope thats true, anyone did some testing?
Would be too ridiculous if a huge flock of mutas gets killed by 3 mines aka 225/75 cost
Regards zvt, i dont see any way besides going for some kind of midgame muta play. Due the way medivacs are now, you kinda need them to deal with drops. You cant invest a huge amount of static defense + have some ling/roach/bane at each expansion in midgame. Your army will be too weak. But its okay i really like it, especially with the new reg vs thor volleys. the only problem are the widow mines. I don't mind the widow mine doing so much damage. It raises the skill level needed to play so it's totally fine. Also, why not research overlord speed and send an overlord in to tank the widow mine?
Because you can turn the auto-attack off on the Widow Mine...
|
On December 14 2012 23:23 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 22:50 agahamsorr0w wrote:On December 14 2012 18:44 doggy wrote:
Just a short question regards widow mines and mutalisks. How many mutalisks does it take to shoot down a mine before it can shoot? Has anyone done some testing?
Since HotS i always go for immediatly overseer with speed while going mutalisks. It feels very worth it, i can drop changelings in positions where they really get in, furthermore i get relatively quick contaminate, which adds really well to the mutalisks. But in my opinion, if you do that and have a huge flock of mutas, mines should do nothing. I hope thats true, anyone did some testing?
Would be too ridiculous if a huge flock of mutas gets killed by 3 mines aka 225/75 cost
Regards zvt, i dont see any way besides going for some kind of midgame muta play. Due the way medivacs are now, you kinda need them to deal with drops. You cant invest a huge amount of static defense + have some ling/roach/bane at each expansion in midgame. Your army will be too weak. But its okay i really like it, especially with the new reg vs thor volleys. the only problem are the widow mines. I don't mind the widow mine doing so much damage. It raises the skill level needed to play so it's totally fine. Also, why not research overlord speed and send an overlord in to tank the widow mine? Because you can turn the auto-attack off on the Widow Mine...
No you can't . You could for a while but right now you can't do anything but burrow/unburrow..
|
On December 14 2012 23:23 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Because you can turn the auto-attack off on the Widow Mine...
Are you sure? I thought that was removed since Patch #6 when widow mines became less suicidal.
|
On December 14 2012 19:02 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 18:26 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 17:30 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 08:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote:
Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research. You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center. I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't". Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me." It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest. But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too. Show nested quote +Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair. ...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build. Show nested quote +The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too. Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched? You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
No you don't because with widow mine you can allways send out single units to trigger them. That doesn't work with burrowed banelings.
|
On December 14 2012 23:30 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 23:23 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Because you can turn the auto-attack off on the Widow Mine... Are you sure? I thought that was removed since Patch #6 when widow mines became less suicidal.
He's wrong .
|
On December 14 2012 23:22 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 22:18 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 21:25 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 19:02 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 18:26 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 17:30 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 08:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote:
Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research. You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center. I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't". Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me." It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest. But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too. Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair. ...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build. The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too. Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched? You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on? For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design. Hmm. I can see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure we benefit from asymmetry being enforced to the meta-level of some races being unable to open with econ, army or tech - at least not the degree of asymmetry there is right now. Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg. I think it's fine to have racial identity through particular strengths, but I don't think Zerg needs to be quite so tightly pigeonholed as 'the one that makes drones or does a roach/baneling bust'. Indeed, I think that's been quite bad for all races: Once upon a time Terrans and Protoss were having a whale of a time coming up with different builds, and Zergs were mostly thrashing around trying not to die to them. I did a search from time to time during the first 18 months of WoL, and virtually all threads about ZvX were discussing the build X was doing and how to stop it. Surviving to the point where you got a decent chance to win was what playing Zerg was all about - I described it at the time as learning to break fists with your face. After some patches and a lot of trial and error, things settled down. But now the game was a lot more boring for T/P. There were endless complaints about how Zergs just had to build a few queens and a couple of roaches to deflect any and all aggression. Most people failed to grasp that this was an inevitable consequence of zerg having so few options early on. If I can only do two easily scoutable things, and you know it and can plan accordingly, those two things have to be a lot stronger and more stable than if I could do ten things and you don't know which one I'm choosing. EDIT: Also, think about how long Zergs tend to spend on hatchery tech compared to Protoss on gateway or Terran on barracks. Then look at the tech available at each Zerg tier (excluding damage/armour ups): Hatchery: Zergling speed Lair: Baneling speed, Roach speed, Tunneling claws, Hydra speed, Hydra range, Infestor energy, neural parasite, enduring locusts, burrow, overlord speed, overlord drop, nydus. Hive: Chitinous plating, adrenal glands It's a bit bloated in the middle, isn't it? It's like, "You will be boring until lair, and then the world is your oyster! Oh, but you won't want to get lair quickly because nothing's useful in small numbers and you can't afford to mass anything on fewer than three bases. So you're gonna be boring for a lot of the time." I agree very much with your analysis. For quite some time, terrans invented many timings which the zerg had to learn to deflect. I also think that lair tech is too good. You still get vipers, ultras, cracklings and broods at tier 3. Not bad, but to afford those units one needs many bases which need to be defended. On the other hand, I like that Blizzard tries to keep the races different. Maybe it will be actually viable for a Hots protoss to go straight to air with virtually no ground units. Maybe zerg is doomed to always be the most boring race overall: While one can pressure with swarm hosts and harass with mutas, it's mostly 4sdddddd (if you have hatcheries on '4'.) Another reason is that creep spread takes time, this rewards longer games for the zerg because he can cover large parts of the map with creep. The greatest issue I see is the watchability. I can accept a quite passive early game as a player, but the viewers want to see action from the get-go. This could somewhat be compensated if the other player harasses the zerg. Then we get at least some action early on. Of course if he also just choose to turtlemacro, we need really competent casters to keep us awake while watching the game.
Well, your example of creep spread is exactly the problem in zerg play. Creep spread builds (builds with 4+) queens are the only option. It's not like you could invest a similar amount of ressources into something else instead of creep (like some aggressive units etc.) and get to a similarily playable aituation.
Zergs these days have gotten such creep believers, when in fact in the first half year or year, people tried a lot of other investments. It just turned out that there is nothing compareable to injecting and creeping.
It's not like Zerg must immidiatly build 1queen per base. It just turned out as the only viable option if you dont want to allin.
|
On December 14 2012 23:32 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 23:30 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On December 14 2012 23:23 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Because you can turn the auto-attack off on the Widow Mine... Are you sure? I thought that was removed since Patch #6 when widow mines became less suicidal. He's wrong .
I am sorry if I said anything wrong, maybe they have changed it in patch #8, but I got beta like two weeks before that patch and I am 100% positive that you could do that, because my friend is playing Terran and he was stating how it feels imba with auto-cast off and he had showed it to me. I didn't test it after the patch #8, it may be the hidden nerf.
If they did that, I actually like it, because you can sacrifice Overlords to counter Mines and Mutalisks are able to harass again.
|
On December 14 2012 22:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 22:11 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 21:56 Big J wrote:On December 14 2012 21:25 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 19:02 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 18:26 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 17:30 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 08:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote:
Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research. You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center. I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't". Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me." It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest. But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too. Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair. ...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build. The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too. Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched? You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on? For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design. Let's terran have their widow mine as we zergs have an easier and cheaper way to get mobile detection. We can also run in with a single ling as cannon fodder to see if the field is mined or not. Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg. Players like Leenock show that it is possible to win games or at least deal a great amount of damage with early lings or roaches. In the past, July also went crazy from time to time and just teched to banes to bust a terran. While zerg has few tech openings, there always is the danger of a very early pool (a rush opening.) I think we zergs don't need the same options as the protoss or terrans. I am willing to accept limitations to each race for the sake of racial diversity. That's not to say that I am right, I guess this is a matter of personal taste. We aggressive Zergs love to switch it up and stay on Lair tech for as long as we don't need siege weapons. It would be awesome, if there were ways to play an aggressive macro game, starting somewhere with hatchtech. Aggressive macrogames make for better games than allins or greedy turtleplay. At least it would make for more watchable games. I fully agree that even the zerg should designwise support a variety of swarm play styles. But how far can it be stretched? If we get too good options for hatch-level aggression, an early rush maybe will be the best option to outright win a game? I guess that bane and roach speed is on lair level to allow good defensive usage (considering the creep speed bonus) but only limited aggressiv usage (imagine either speedbanes or speedroaches on hatchery-level ...) Yeah, but a strategy game allows for many subtle ways for such adcantages. Burrow at hatchtech might be something like that. Units that regenerate fast between combats (shields, reaper, original roaches) are really great invesstments, yet dont break the game by making rushes stronger. Costly(in the case of SC gasintense) units that are hard to attack (air, cloak). Units with no/low investment costs and good utility (like vipers on hivw tech). There are many options to prevent allinning to become overly powerful, yet make doing damage or forcing similar cost reactions possible. Just Zerg hardly has any of those, apart from defensive utility (queens) or some Okish Roach or baneling or speedling builds (mostly useful in ZvZ)
With Hots, the game already gets much more complex. Reapers have passive regeneration at a high rate, mutas at a low rate, roaches (as in Wol) at a very high rate but only when burrowed ... medivacs get a speedboost with cooldown and so on. SC2 is already more complex regarding bonus damage, because the damage bonus or malus is no longer a fixed percentage as in SC1. SC2 is easier to balance, but (letting the UI aside) harder to learn. I think it is okay to tolerate some issues if it helps to keep the complexity at a reasonable level.
|
On December 14 2012 22:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 22:45 smidge wrote:
I tried to find the answer in the thread or on Liquipedia, but what is the point of the unburrowed range on the widow mine? What does it do when it isn't burrowed? I think WM's were attacked by default, but with the new settings if you don't focus fire them, they won't be your default target and your unmicroed units will most likely attack other terran units rather than the mine.
Oh okay, thanks. I mistook attack priority for attack range. Makes a lot more sense now 
|
On December 13 2012 20:00 arcane1129 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote:
All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it. Have you ever even used mutas? When you're done harassing with mutas, you click them to a safe point and turn your attention to macro as they travel while keeping an eye on the minimap. Mutas ball heavily as they travel and they move much faster than an overseer. Simply moving your mutas around the map is a big risk, and that's not even factoring in the other things I mentioned in my previous post that people like you apparently ignore.
Well then I guess Zergs who use mutas will have to pay more attention to them?
Also, if you A move a clustered swarm of mutas they kill 1 or two mines before the mines even go off... Not to mention now mines will 90% likely die after they've gone off, it will kill one muta and then your mutas are weakened for what? 40 seconds while the splash damage melts away?
Have you even tested mines in the map tester at all?
Mutas are better than ever in a way the player can control, stop going crazy over something that's not been seen at the apex pro level. Instead be excited about how pros will learn HOW to use mutas.
|
Changes seem interesting and worth trying.
My gripe is that they keep adding abilities to try and balance things when simple is often better. I actually do not like the muta change at all. Stuff like this makes observing the game even more difficult unless you have a very intimate understanding. My Dad enjoyed watching BW matches but finds SC2 confusing with all the abilities. I think making the game simpler means it'll be easier to tweak later and definitely more watchable for the casual observer.
|
Im beginning to think protoss needs some sort of interesting harass unit that isn't straight up, like a DT or completely limited in its ability to help in the main fight without using abilities (like the oracle)... Something like the predator (but a protoss version) from the WoL campaign or something.
|
On December 14 2012 22:50 agahamsorr0w wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 18:44 doggy wrote:
Just a short question regards widow mines and mutalisks. How many mutalisks does it take to shoot down a mine before it can shoot? Has anyone done some testing?
Since HotS i always go for immediatly overseer with speed while going mutalisks. It feels very worth it, i can drop changelings in positions where they really get in, furthermore i get relatively quick contaminate, which adds really well to the mutalisks. But in my opinion, if you do that and have a huge flock of mutas, mines should do nothing. I hope thats true, anyone did some testing?
Would be too ridiculous if a huge flock of mutas gets killed by 3 mines aka 225/75 cost
Regards zvt, i dont see any way besides going for some kind of midgame muta play. Due the way medivacs are now, you kinda need them to deal with drops. You cant invest a huge amount of static defense + have some ling/roach/bane at each expansion in midgame. Your army will be too weak. But its okay i really like it, especially with the new reg vs thor volleys. the only problem are the widow mines. I don't mind the widow mine doing so much damage. It raises the skill level needed to play so it's totally fine. Also, why not research overlord speed and send an overlord in to tank the widow mine?
Because letting overlords be the limiting factor in how fast you can harass will seriously reduce Mutas' effectiveness. Also because with just a few mines you can make that completely impractical, making entire areas unattackable for a very small cost.
I don't think Muta harassment is 100% impossible, just that it is way too weak and random. Yes, Mutas might work against some builds that people use in the beta (reaper, mine, hellbat... people make no anti-air whatsoever these days). But the old bio-mech or bio builds with the addition of mines are going to make Mutas a losing tech path.
I can't emphasize enough how much I dislike widow mines. People will think they're new, fun and exciting for a while but after a couple months I think we'll all regret the impact it has on the game. As a player, the fact that it forces you to stay so passive for so long in ZvT removes all fun from the matchup. It's incredibly tedious having to take blow after blow without the ability to punish the opponent when he misses. To me Mines are doomed to be a failed unit, that don't achieve what they're supposed to in TvP and will break TvZ.
|
On December 15 2012 01:31 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 20:00 arcane1129 wrote:On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote:
All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it. Have you ever even used mutas? When you're done harassing with mutas, you click them to a safe point and turn your attention to macro as they travel while keeping an eye on the minimap. Mutas ball heavily as they travel and they move much faster than an overseer. Simply moving your mutas around the map is a big risk, and that's not even factoring in the other things I mentioned in my previous post that people like you apparently ignore. Well then I guess Zergs who use mutas will have to pay more attention to them? Also, if you A move a clustered swarm of mutas they kill 1 or two mines before the mines even go off... Not to mention now mines will 90% likely die after they've gone off, it will kill one muta and then your mutas are weakened for what? 40 seconds while the splash damage melts away? Have you even tested mines in the map tester at all? Mutas are better than ever in a way the player can control, stop going crazy over something that's not been seen at the apex pro level. Instead be excited about how pros will learn HOW to use mutas.
Do you get the irony of saying "just test it" and writing something that can be easily disproved... by testing it? How about you apply your advice to yourself.
|
On December 15 2012 02:28 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 01:31 ShatterZer0 wrote:On December 13 2012 20:00 arcane1129 wrote:On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote:
All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it. Have you ever even used mutas? When you're done harassing with mutas, you click them to a safe point and turn your attention to macro as they travel while keeping an eye on the minimap. Mutas ball heavily as they travel and they move much faster than an overseer. Simply moving your mutas around the map is a big risk, and that's not even factoring in the other things I mentioned in my previous post that people like you apparently ignore. Well then I guess Zergs who use mutas will have to pay more attention to them? Also, if you A move a clustered swarm of mutas they kill 1 or two mines before the mines even go off... Not to mention now mines will 90% likely die after they've gone off, it will kill one muta and then your mutas are weakened for what? 40 seconds while the splash damage melts away? Have you even tested mines in the map tester at all? Mutas are better than ever in a way the player can control, stop going crazy over something that's not been seen at the apex pro level. Instead be excited about how pros will learn HOW to use mutas. Do you get the irony of saying "just test it" and writing something that can be easily disproved... by testing it? How about you apply your advice to yourself.
I have... unless somehow it's changed from Sunday 
Do tell which part has been changed, I tested widow mine sniping/dragging quite strenuously. For like 5 hours. T.T
|
mutalisk buff. as if leenock needed any more help
|
i personally feel like the reapers need to do more dmg vs structures again. also i think widow mines need a faster cool down, and oracle needs more armor.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
