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On December 14 2012 13:45 ref4 wrote:
argh Mutalisks are going to be even more difficult to deal with. 2-3 Turrets aren't enough when you have like 15-20 mutas, now you need like 2-3 widow mines per mineral line + dot the outer radius with turrets.
20 Mutas is 2000/2000/40 rescourrces and you want to shut it down with 2-3 turrets that cost like +- 250 minerals only??
Some people really want to have godmode for their race I guess 
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On December 14 2012 17:31 Flummie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 13:45 ref4 wrote:
argh Mutalisks are going to be even more difficult to deal with. 2-3 Turrets aren't enough when you have like 15-20 mutas, now you need like 2-3 widow mines per mineral line + dot the outer radius with turrets. 20 Mutas is 2000/2000/40 rescourrces and you want to shut it down with 2-3 turrets that cost like +- 250 minerals only?? Some people really want to have godmode for their race I guess
Yeah and it's not like 20mutas wouldn't have done that in WoL... They just regenerate a little faster and fly slightly faster.
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On December 14 2012 17:20 sagefreke wrote:
Really hope they do something to the Widow Mine to help Muta play. Just played a game where Terran scanned my spire and hid 3 widow mines in his mineral line as a nice little present. Went down from 10 Mutas to 7 weak mutas before killing any SCVs.
I've even tried going in with an Overseer to lead me except that it takes 2 shots to kill an Overseer from a Widow Mine meaning that in addition to worrying about keeping my Mutas alive while harassing, I'm also worried about my Overseer too while also keeping up with my macro and controlling my main army.
I'm not saying Widow Mines shouldn't be allowed to hit air, but something needs to be done so that 100/100/2 units aren't instantly one shot with 40 AoE damage by a 75/25/2 unit. That's just way too cost effective, especially when Zerg has no real way to counter it when harassing with Mutas. It's simply, "Oh I got hit with a Widow Mine. Minus one Muta I guess. Oh here come the marines/thor, time to run away while the Terran player is trading with me cost effectively every single time I try to harass with Mutas."
If you donate one muta per mine (which is send in first to activate a burrowed mine) you don't trade efficiently, but if you can open up the way to kill a lot of workers, it still can be worth it.
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On December 14 2012 16:55 Sweetfrost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 07:42 Kenny_oro wrote:Terran
Medivac
Caduceus Reactor
The Medivac’s healing beam now changes color once the Caduceus Reactor upgrade is complete. Only one question - What color is it?? :D Hopefully a cool blue colour! :D Like neon blue or something! 
Its blue! but not so shiny! :D
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On December 14 2012 17:30 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 08:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote:
Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research. You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center. I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't". Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest. So burrow at hatchery is too early.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
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Actually now that I think of TvZ "mech" against Roach/Hydra/Viper.. It might be viable to skip tanks for just Hellbat/Thor/Widow Mine + either banshee or some other support.. Is it possible, that Blizzard managed to completly disable tank from both TvZ and TvP with the new "tankless mech"? lol.. That would be hilarisou.. :D
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Just a short question regards widow mines and mutalisks. How many mutalisks does it take to shoot down a mine before it can shoot? Has anyone done some testing?
Since HotS i always go for immediatly overseer with speed while going mutalisks. It feels very worth it, i can drop changelings in positions where they really get in, furthermore i get relatively quick contaminate, which adds really well to the mutalisks. But in my opinion, if you do that and have a huge flock of mutas, mines should do nothing. I hope thats true, anyone did some testing?
Would be too ridiculous if a huge flock of mutas gets killed by 3 mines aka 225/75 cost
Regards zvt, i dont see any way besides going for some kind of midgame muta play. Due the way medivacs are now, you kinda need them to deal with drops. You cant invest a huge amount of static defense + have some ling/roach/bane at each expansion in midgame. Your army will be too weak. But its okay i really like it, especially with the new reg vs thor volleys. the only problem are the widow mines.
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On December 14 2012 18:26 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 17:30 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 08:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote:
Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research. You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center. I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't". Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me." It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest.
But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched?
You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
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Terran "tiers" are not at all equivalent to zerg tiers. By your definition, starport would be tier 3. You consider starpart equivalent to hive?
It's more complicated because you have to consider the techlab, armory, and fusion core as well, and even then you can't make a direct comparison.
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On December 14 2012 19:02 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 18:26 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 17:30 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 08:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote:
Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research. You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center. I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't". Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me." It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest. But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too. Show nested quote +Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair. ...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build. Show nested quote +The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too. Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched? You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
Burrow at hatch would be soooo cool. Roachmicro allins, burrowed banelings from the get-go, forcing MSCs to waste their energy on detection early. Defending ramps with 2banelings.
So many potentially broken things (that could surely be balanced out), so much fun potential for early zerg play. Playstyles that are more than: "I guess he is well defended, time to drone and tech".
But I think the main problem is roaches vs Protoss. You take out the canon (or in gateway expands there is none) and then everything that stands between players with great micro skills and winning is the short MSC detection duration. (and those roaches are quite harder to kill than those 2-3 stray widow mines) But hell, nerf/remove regeneration of roaches into the ground without the burrow movement, see how this goes.
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I'm a Protoss player an I agree with the muta change. I'm glad its not a direct buff in HP, Speed or Damage that would just make them harder to deal with but a buff that needs good decision making and control to capitalize on.
Blizzard needed to buff the muta anyway, with the way P and T air has changed.
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On December 14 2012 19:02 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 18:26 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 17:30 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 08:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote:
Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research. You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center. I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't". Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me." It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest. But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too. Show nested quote +Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair. ...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build. Show nested quote +The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too. Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched? You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design.
Let's terran have their widow mine as we zergs have an easier and cheaper way to get mobile detection. We can also run in with a single ling as cannon fodder to see if the field is mined or not.
Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg. Players like Leenock show that it is possible to win games or at least deal a great amount of damage with early lings or roaches. In the past, July also went crazy from time to time and just teched to banes to bust a terran. While zerg has few tech openings, there always is the danger of a very early pool (a rush opening.) I think we zergs don't need the same options as the protoss or terrans.
I am willing to accept limitations to each race for the sake of racial diversity. That's not to say that I am right, I guess this is a matter of personal taste.
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On December 14 2012 19:21 arcane1129 wrote:
Terran "tiers" are not at all equivalent to zerg tiers. By your definition, starport would be tier 3. You consider starpart equivalent to hive?
It's more complicated because you have to consider the techlab, armory, and fusion core as well, and even then you can't make a direct comparison.
I don't consider starport comparable to hive (but admittedly I still brought the tier 2 comparison up). I consider the starport tier 3. Since the races are so diverse, one cannot directly compare the tiers, they just give a rough indication of the tech level of the unit within its race.
Fusion core would be tier 3.5
The terran can rush quicky through his tech tree but only if he forfeits the ability to mass units. It's understandable that the zerg teching is delayed to prevent too fast high-tech units which could be massed due to the production from larvae.
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On December 14 2012 21:25 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 19:02 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 18:26 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 17:30 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 08:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote:
Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research. You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center. I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't". Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me." It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest. But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too. Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair. ...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build. The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too. Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched? You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on? For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design. Let's terran have their widow mine as we zergs have an easier and cheaper way to get mobile detection. We can also run in with a single ling as cannon fodder to see if the field is mined or not. Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg. Players like Leenock show that it is possible to win games or at least deal a great amount of damage with early lings or roaches. In the past, July also went crazy from time to time and just teched to banes to bust a terran. While zerg has few tech openings, there always is the danger of a very early pool (a rush opening.) I think we zergs don't need the same options as the protoss or terrans. I am willing to accept limitations to each race for the sake of racial diversity. That's not to say that I am right, I guess this is a matter of personal taste.
We aggressive Zergs love to switch it up and stay on Lair tech for as long as we don't need siege weapons. It would be awesome, if there were ways to play an aggressive macro game, starting somewhere with hatchtech. Aggressive macrogames make for better games than allins or greedy turtleplay.
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On December 14 2012 21:56 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 21:25 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 19:02 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 18:26 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 17:30 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 08:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote:
Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research. You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center. I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't". Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me." It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest. But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too. Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair. ...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build. The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too. Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched? You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on? For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design. Let's terran have their widow mine as we zergs have an easier and cheaper way to get mobile detection. We can also run in with a single ling as cannon fodder to see if the field is mined or not. Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg. Players like Leenock show that it is possible to win games or at least deal a great amount of damage with early lings or roaches. In the past, July also went crazy from time to time and just teched to banes to bust a terran. While zerg has few tech openings, there always is the danger of a very early pool (a rush opening.) I think we zergs don't need the same options as the protoss or terrans. I am willing to accept limitations to each race for the sake of racial diversity. That's not to say that I am right, I guess this is a matter of personal taste. We aggressive Zergs love to switch it up and stay on Lair tech for as long as we don't need siege weapons. It would be awesome, if there were ways to play an aggressive macro game, starting somewhere with hatchtech. Aggressive macrogames make for better games than allins or greedy turtleplay.
At least it would make for more watchable games.
I fully agree that even the zerg should designwise support a variety of swarm play styles. But how far can it be stretched? If we get too good options for hatch-level aggression, an early rush maybe will be the best option to outright win a game? I guess that bane and roach speed is on lair level to allow good defensive usage (considering the creep speed bonus) but only limited aggressiv usage (imagine either speedbanes or speedroaches on hatchery-level ...)
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On December 14 2012 21:25 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 19:02 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 18:26 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 17:30 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 08:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote:
Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research. You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center. I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't". Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me." It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest. But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too. Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair. ...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build. The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too. Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched? You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on? For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design.
Hmm. I can see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure we benefit from asymmetry being enforced to the meta-level of some races being unable to open with econ, army or tech - at least not the degree of asymmetry there is right now.
Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg.
I think it's fine to have racial identity through particular strengths, but I don't think Zerg needs to be quite so tightly pigeonholed as 'the one that makes drones or does a roach/baneling bust'. Indeed, I think that's been quite bad for all races:
Once upon a time Terrans and Protoss were having a whale of a time coming up with different builds, and Zergs were mostly thrashing around trying not to die to them. I did a search from time to time during the first 18 months of WoL, and virtually all threads about ZvX were discussing the build X was doing and how to stop it. Surviving to the point where you got a decent chance to win was what playing Zerg was all about - I described it at the time as learning to break fists with your face.
After some patches and a lot of trial and error, things settled down. But now the game was a lot more boring for T/P. There were endless complaints about how Zergs just had to build a few queens and a couple of roaches to deflect any and all aggression. Most people failed to grasp that this was an inevitable consequence of zerg having so few options early on. If I can only do two easily scoutable things, and you know it and can plan accordingly, those two things have to be a lot stronger and more stable than if I could do ten things and you don't know which one I'm choosing.
EDIT: Also, think about how long Zergs tend to spend on hatchery tech compared to Protoss on gateway or Terran on barracks. Then look at the tech available at each Zerg tier (excluding damage/armour ups):
Hatchery: Zergling speed
Lair: Baneling speed, Roach speed, Tunneling claws, Hydra speed, Hydra range, Infestor energy, neural parasite, enduring locusts, burrow, overlord speed, overlord drop, nydus.
Hive: Chitinous plating, adrenal glands
It's a bit bloated in the middle, isn't it? It's like, "You will be boring until lair, and then the world is your oyster! Oh, but you won't want to get lair quickly because nothing's useful in small numbers and you can't afford to mass anything on fewer than three bases. So you're gonna be boring for a lot of the time."
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On December 14 2012 22:11 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 21:56 Big J wrote:On December 14 2012 21:25 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 19:02 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 18:26 [F_]aths wrote:On December 14 2012 17:30 Umpteen wrote:On December 14 2012 08:37 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote:
Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research. You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center. I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't". Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me." It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest. But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too. Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair. ...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build. The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too. Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched? You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on? For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design. Let's terran have their widow mine as we zergs have an easier and cheaper way to get mobile detection. We can also run in with a single ling as cannon fodder to see if the field is mined or not. Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg. Players like Leenock show that it is possible to win games or at least deal a great amount of damage with early lings or roaches. In the past, July also went crazy from time to time and just teched to banes to bust a terran. While zerg has few tech openings, there always is the danger of a very early pool (a rush opening.) I think we zergs don't need the same options as the protoss or terrans. I am willing to accept limitations to each race for the sake of racial diversity. That's not to say that I am right, I guess this is a matter of personal taste. We aggressive Zergs love to switch it up and stay on Lair tech for as long as we don't need siege weapons. It would be awesome, if there were ways to play an aggressive macro game, starting somewhere with hatchtech. Aggressive macrogames make for better games than allins or greedy turtleplay. At least it would make for more watchable games. I fully agree that even the zerg should designwise support a variety of swarm play styles. But how far can it be stretched? If we get too good options for hatch-level aggression, an early rush maybe will be the best option to outright win a game? I guess that bane and roach speed is on lair level to allow good defensive usage (considering the creep speed bonus) but only limited aggressiv usage (imagine either speedbanes or speedroaches on hatchery-level ...)
Yeah, but a strategy game allows for many subtle ways for such adcantages. Burrow at hatchtech might be something like that. Units that regenerate fast between combats (shields, reaper, original roaches) are really great invesstments, yet dont break the game by making rushes stronger. Costly(in the case of SC gasintense) units that are hard to attack (air, cloak).
Units with no/low investment costs and good utility (like vipers on hivw tech).
There are many options to prevent allinning to become overly powerful, yet make doing damage or forcing similar cost reactions possible. Just Zerg hardly has any of those, apart from defensive utility (queens) or some Okish Roach or baneling or speedling builds (mostly useful in ZvZ)
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On December 14 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote:
Actually now that I think of TvZ "mech" against Roach/Hydra/Viper.. It might be viable to skip tanks for just Hellbat/Thor/Widow Mine + either banshee or some other support.. Is it possible, that Blizzard managed to completly disable tank from both TvZ and TvP with the new "tankless mech"? lol.. That would be hilarisou.. :D
As your " " implies, factory units without tank is not mech because there is no zoning/containment play. But at the same time, the reason zoning is hard in wol is because tank lines are easily broken by lings and IT's eggs. Maybe the hellbat will give much more protection and allow tank play, who knows.
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Dunno why everyone is arguing about Terran tiers, really all they have is tier 1 and they use that for just about everything.
Terran t3 doesn't really exist because all of their high tech units can be hard-countered so easily.
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I tried to find the answer in the thread or on Liquipedia, but what is the point of the unburrowed range on the widow mine? What does it do when it isn't burrowed?
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EPT
