Just posted on B.net. Some interesting changes in here.
Hey everyone,
We will be bringing the beta down this afternoon to make the following balance changes. Thanks again for all the great feedback you've provided while testing Heart of the Swarm. We hope to see you testing these changes and sharing your input soon!
Terran
Medivac Caduceus Reactor The Medivac’s healing beam now changes color once the Caduceus Reactor upgrade is complete.
Widow Mine Unburrowed Widow Mine attack priority decreased to 19, down from 20. Burrowed Widow Mine attack priority remains unchanged.
Armory Vehicle and Ship Weapon upgrades are once again separate. Vehicle and Ship Plating upgrades are still combined.
Protoss
Oracle Pulsar Beam Pulsar Beam activation now costs 25 energy. While active, Pulsar Beam now drains 2 energy per second, down from 4.
Tempest Kinetic Overload weapon damage vs. Massive increased from 30 to 50.
Dark Shrine Dark shrine cost increased from 100/100 to 150/150.
Zerg
Mutalisk New passive ability: Mutalisk Regeneration Mutalisk health regeneration rate increased from .2734 to 1.
Edit: Mutalisks should "leech", ie. gain life for every Glaive wurm + splash that hits an enemy unit/strucutre.
That way it rewards the player for being active and attacking/harassing by healing them. If you can splash 3 units, than that procs the leech 3 times. The passive regen is nice but I think it can be better
Oracle nerf/buff all in one. Now we must build up enegry, but the beam lasts longer. No clearing out mineral lines with 3 of the little bastards right after they are built.
On December 13 2012 07:40 -NegativeZero- wrote: Tempest 80 dmg vs massive air?... I don't think anyone is ever going to make a colossus in a PvP again lol
Yay! My day is made, for I hate them so when they fry my zealots.
I'm not digging the muta change. I feel like it will give them too much longevity for the possible amount of damage they can inflict on the enemy player. I really think they should be a specific time of game sort of unit, the kind that you commit to and then use carefully to potentially do a hell of a lot of damage. This increases the amount of time they are useful, and reduces the obligation to be careful with them. Maybe I'm being overly dramatic, but I don't see it turning out well.
On December 13 2012 07:38 blade55555 wrote: If they want mutas to be used in zvt they need to make it so widows can't hit air or it can't hit mutas at least -_-.
Kinda surprised at the sudden terran weapon attack nerf that seems fair though.
Not sure if they gave the oracle pulsar beam a buff or a nerf? How much energy did it cost to activate before if any?
Tempests doesn't matter I don't go broods and dark shrine increase saw that coming xD.
None. It was a free toggle. So this is a nerf in a way.
On December 13 2012 07:40 -NegativeZero- wrote: Tempest 80 dmg vs massive air?... I don't think anyone is ever going to make a colossus in a PvP again lol
Dislike how "niche" the temepst has become as most toss unit are already very specific. I understand they don't want it to deal with both ultra and BL but as it sits its only good vs one unit the broodlord (excluding BC which are not built and carriers in pvp).
Also any changes for the voidray? It seems to be the new massed unit in PvP instead of colossus.
edit: Also to the asshat on reddit, don't be so shocked people might post on two different communities... ^_^
Ahaha that muta change. Going to make hard timings for toss to defend and T won't give a fuck b/c of widow mines. Oh gosh guys we finally nerfed infestors how will zerg recover.
And lol who the FUCK would have thought making the dark shrine 100/100 was overpowered. Not me, HELLS NAH.
On December 13 2012 07:44 Rorschach wrote: Dislike how "niche" the temepst has become as most toss unit are already very specific. I understand they don't want it to deal with both ultra and BL but as it sits its only good vs one unit the broodlord (excluding BC which are not built and carriers in pvp).
Also any changes for the voidray? It seems to be the new massed unit in PvP instead of colossus.
Armory Vehicle and Ship Weapon upgrades are once again separate. Vehicle and Ship Plating upgrades are still combined.
I knew it, just knew they would change this. I even thought it would be removed altogether but this seems to be a nice compromise. Mech into 3/3 Vikings and BCs was very strong.
On December 13 2012 07:44 Rorschach wrote: Dislike how "niche" the temepst has become as most toss unit are already very specific. I understand they don't want it to deal with both ultra and BL but as it sits its only good vs one unit the broodlord (excluding BC which are not built and carriers in pvp).
Also any changes for the voidray? It seems to be the new massed unit in PvP instead of colossus.
And Collosus which is a big deal.
colossus player gets owned by mass voidrays in HoTS, where ya been?
Nice changes. I was expecting that armory changes (1 armor and 1 attack for every mech unit was a bit extreme IMO), and I am really curious about how metagame will evolve for protoss now that you need 3 shots to kill a BL and 5 to kill a colossus.
Well.. I saw the upgrades nerf coming... Isn't too bad tho, I don't like Mech anyway.
I remember playing on a custom map with funky changes to the games, and muta actually had a hp regen upgrade. Funny how things go. It's now an official thing, sort of.
I still wish the beta wasn't so laggy from EU tho ;; Can't even shoot and kite with reapers sometimes
Really nice change ! But... widow mine still too good (and receive small buff it seems?) and oracle way too overpowered (and buff -_-) and not fun at middle level !
On December 13 2012 07:52 mapthesoul wrote: Blizzard seems to have pretty much adopted the philosophy of making everything overpowered until it's balanced.
I LIKE IT
It's what they should've done to begin with. See BW.
On December 13 2012 07:52 mapthesoul wrote: Blizzard seems to have pretty much adopted the philosophy of making everything overpowered until it's balanced.
I LIKE IT
Terrible terrible damage, man. It's the way of the future.
Interesting that they took the "give health regen to harassing units" concept from the reaper and applied it to the mutalisk. I kind of like it in theory, but it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I think mutalisk play is much more exciting than infestor play (both to watch and to control) so hopefully it makes them more viable without being overpowered.
Still seems like they're trying to work out how to make the tempest fit in. It feels a little overly specialized at the moment. I'm glad that Protoss is potentially getting a good answers to BLs, but right now the tempest still feels a little blunt and boring, even if it does turn out to be effective.
Great patch overall. I was expecting them to make the medivac speed boost an upgrade but I guess it hasn't been tested enough or it's fine in their eyes.
I didn't try it enough but in theory it felt like having 3/3 vikings out when going mech against brood lords was too much so I guess this is a good middle ground. I'm wondering if they have something planned for BCs because it seems weird they would make seeker missiles almost identical to yamato. It's not like Terran needs another 1 target high damage spell late-game.
Oracle change is good because now it forces you to decide if you want to commit to activating it just like cloak so you can't toggle it on and off without spending energy.
Regeneration for mutalisks won't make them more viable in ZvT but might cause problems in ZvP with this and the speed boost although a skytoss transition is more viable now because of tempests after you open phoenix.
On December 13 2012 07:55 Madera wrote: Great patch overall. I was expecting them to make the medivac speed boost an upgrade but I guess it hasn't been tested enough or it's fine in their eyes.
I didn't try it enough but in theory it felt like having 3/3 vikings out when going mech against brood lords was too much so I guess this is a good middle ground. I'm wondering if they have something planned for BCs because it seems weird they would make seeker missiles almost identical to yamato. It's not like Terran needs another 1 target high damage spell late-game.
Oracle change is good because now it forces you to decide if you wants to commit to activating just like cloak so you can't toggle it on and off without spending energy.
Regeneration for mutalisks won't make them more viable in ZvT but might cause problems in ZvP with this and the speed boost although a skytoss transition is more viable now because of tempests after you open phoenix.
The medivac speed forces a lot of static defense for Z or P, which is good.
The armory upgrade change to Terran makes sense...I play Terran and thought only having two upgrades to get for both ground and air factory/starport units was unfair.
The Mutalisk regeneration ability is interesting. Blizzard really wants to encourage Mutalisk play, and I can't fault them for that. As a spectator, watching ling/bling/muta in ZvT is much more entertaining (than heavy Infestor-turtle play).
I think people are looking at the Oracle change from the wrong perspective. By requiring 25 activation energy, this ensures a pair of oracles cannot issue terrible, terrible damage to an undefended worker line super early and give the Protoss an auto-win. Protoss players will have to wait for more of an energy buildup, increasing the chances the Stargate tech might be scouted and allowing their opponent to be slightly more prepared. I've seen too many Beta games already where Protoss players get silly wins in seconds just because of a few Oracles.
Oracle Pulsar Beam Pulsar Beam activation now costs 25 energy. While active, Pulsar Beam now drains 2 energy per second, down from 4.
Is this a buff or nerf? Seems like it would delay oracle harassment for awhile but be more effective once activated.
I believe It's supposed to make the choice to activate the ability more skill based, as it was before this patch you could toggle it off and on for no cost whenever you wanted to. Now turning it on is more of a commitment, if you activate it and get your harassment denied you lost 25+ energy instead of 5.
My main worry is that the increased Muta health regen will act almost like armor, decreasing the DPS of enemy anti-air that are trying to hit the Mutas. Stalkers may have a harder time shooting down Mutas, and the regen might mitigate up to 5 damage per full duration of a Fungal if my math is correct.
And the Oracle change makes sense considering how powerful Oracles currently are. It will take 12.5 seconds for both the old Oracle and the new Oracle to expend 50 energy for Pulsar Beam, after which the new Oracle will be more energy-efficient but before which the old Oracle is more energy-efficient.
The Armory tweaks seem like a reasonable compromise. Combining all the upgrades seemed to be a bit much, and I always thought that a good compromise would be to just combine either the attack or armor upgrades while leaving the other separate.
As far as the unburrowed Widow Mine target priority change goes, according to the Liquipedia page for attack target priority, an attack priority of 19 will match the attack priorities of uprooted Spine and Spore Crawlers, rooted Spore Crawlers, burrowed Creep Tumors, Missile Turrets, and Bunkers. In comparison, almost all other units have attack priorities of 20, along with Cannons and PFs.
On December 13 2012 07:59 eviltomahawk wrote: My main worry is that the increased Muta health regen will act almost like armor, decreasing the DPS of enemy anti-air that are trying to hit the Mutas.
On December 13 2012 07:57 RiSkyToss wrote: Mutalisk change is too much
Was also thinking about this. I question if 4 speed Mutalisks with 400% more HP regen with no upgrade required is necessary. It's not like Mutalisks were as bad as reapers.
NICE! Only armor is shared. This will give more incentive to still prioritize either mech or air over the other, while it's still a buff to both. But still, I think I'd rather have the upgrades just be made cheaper, maybe even change the upgrade time, because 2/2/2 upgrades for each tech feels most natural, as it was in BW. I wonder what they will think after this change is tested out a bit.
New healing beam? yayay
Not sure if i like the oracle change, but it's interesting. Sorta lowers the skill cap on both sides, but at the same time creates more tension once the oracle does go in and try to harass. I guess it also rewards you if you're able to harass for a long time, since it's cheaper in the long run.
Holy shit it does 80 damage now instead of 60 vs air? Not sure if that was needed.
Not sure about the mutalisk regen... feels like too many passives/spells. And it's similar to reaper.
On December 13 2012 07:55 Madera wrote: Great patch overall. I was expecting them to make the medivac speed boost an upgrade but I guess it hasn't been tested enough or it's fine in their eyes.
I didn't try it enough but in theory it felt like having 3/3 vikings out when going mech against brood lords was too much so I guess this is a good middle ground. I'm wondering if they have something planned for BCs because it seems weird they would make seeker missiles almost identical to yamato. It's not like Terran needs another 1 target high damage spell late-game.
Oracle change is good because now it forces you to decide if you wants to commit to activating just like cloak so you can't toggle it on and off without spending energy.
Regeneration for mutalisks won't make them more viable in ZvT but might cause problems in ZvP with this and the speed boost although a skytoss transition is more viable now because of tempests after you open phoenix.
The medivac speed forces a lot of static defense for Z or P, which is good.
I don't think forcing statics to be standard is good. It forces turtling. Imo most things that are made for defense but cannot attack should be circumventable to make the game dynamic. 1 spore per base is OK. but having ridicolous amounts of spines/spores+queens (like in WoL) per expension as standard setup just bores down the game.
Not talking specifically about medivac speed however. Just generally
On December 13 2012 07:56 Puritas wrote: Now we only need to change the Protoss weapons upgrade to Warpgate units / Robo units ans make it 2 so its balanced
All races now have five upgrades. Remember that protoss armour upgrades only cover a portion of their total HP.
On December 13 2012 08:02 Big J wrote: I don't think forcing statics to be standard is good. It forces turtling. Imo most things that are made for defense but cannot attack should be circumventable to make the game dynamic. 1 spore per base is OK. but having ridicolous amounts of spines/spores+queens (like in WoL) per expension as standard setup just bores down the game.
Not talking specifically about medivac speed however. Just generally
Looked at from a different perspective, stronger static defence can - not necessarily does, but can - free up units for harass.
i dunno whats the use of combined defense upgrades for terran. I never make any defense upgrades for air and for mech only if i play full mech. and defensive upgrades arent that useful for air...
On December 13 2012 08:04 SpikeStarcraft wrote: i dunno whats the use of combined defense upgrades for terran. I never make any defense upgrades for air and for mech only if i play full mech. and defensive upgrades arent that useful for air...
Its just fair. Before, upgrading +3 mech would make +3 air attack. It means that if the zerg was going BL, he would have 0/0 BL against 3/0 vikings... Was a non sense.
I feel like Zerg players are going to start going into Terran bases with an overseer to snipe widow mines from now on.
Question: Are Broodlirds officially dead as a tier 3 unit in ZvP? I feel like late game with tempests and HT there should be no way Broodlords will become cost effective as they were in WoL.
On December 13 2012 08:07 ZAiNs wrote: The Mutalisk change seems ridiculous for PvZ...
With viable stargate openers, fighting against mutas with blink stalkers + phoenix (which have +1 range in HOTS) won't be as hard as in WoL obviously. And the games will be funnier to watch from a spectator pov
hmmm dunno if I like the muta change. If feel like window mines simply shouldn't hit air and leave the mutas as is. The nerfed infestor already leaves me wary for the future of ZvZ :/
Wow these are pretty cool. Don't like the Tempest change though, seems too much. They are already SUPER strong against air massive, it's the dps in general which they lack (but that's expected cause of the range and role of the unit).
Oracle Pulsar Beam Pulsar Beam activation now costs 25 energy. While active, Pulsar Beam now drains 2 energy per second, down from 4.
Is this a buff or nerf? Seems like it would delay oracle harassment for awhile but be more effective once activated.
Seems like a pretty big nerf to me, especially for the pro players. It takes 12.5 seconds for you to equalize the energy spent for the activation. Don't ever see that happening with mineral line harassment on the pro scene. Lower levels, perhaps would be a buff for plat and below.
Might make for some interesting choices on larger bases. Maybe target supply depots in hard to reach spots. But stimmed marines insta gib the oracle so that activation energy is brutal. No more darting in and out.
On December 13 2012 08:04 SpikeStarcraft wrote: i dunno whats the use of combined defense upgrades for terran. I never make any defense upgrades for air and for mech only if i play full mech. and defensive upgrades arent that useful for air...
Its just fair. Before, upgrading +3 mech would make +3 air attack. It means that if the zerg was going BL, he would have 0/0 BL against 3/0 vikings... Was a non sense.
Yep. I'm pretty sure that's why they split those up again, +3 air attack vikings when Zerg is just getting +1/+1 brood/corruptor was a bit insane.
On December 13 2012 08:08 sagefreke wrote: Hooray for Mutas!
I feel like Zerg players are going to start going into Terran bases with an overseer to snipe widow mines from now on.
Well can't snipe widow mines unless zerg wants to give away a free muta every time.
Might be worth it if the Zerg kills the whole mineral line afterwards.
Well unless terran is really skimping on turrets (which would be dumb xD) that shouldn't work.
With 1HP/Sec turrets should be less of a problem. If you don't lose a Muta while killing a Turret the Mutas should regen the damage done pretty fast.
well like I said unless terran is really skimping on defenses and relying on widows only (which is stupid) then sure, but most terrans have a couple turrents which buys them time for marines to go or thors if they are going mech.
Oracle Pulsar Beam Pulsar Beam activation now costs 25 energy. While active, Pulsar Beam now drains 2 energy per second, down from 4.
Is this a buff or nerf? Seems like it would delay oracle harassment for awhile but be more effective once activated.
Seems like a pretty big nerf to me, especially for the pro players. It takes 12.5 seconds for you to equalize the energy spent for the activation. Don't ever see that happening with mineral line harassment on the pro scene. Lower levels, perhaps would be a buff for plat and below.
Might make for some interesting choices on larger bases. Maybe target supply depots in hard to reach spots. But stimmed marines insta gib the oracle so that activation energy is brutal. No more darting in and out.
I don't think Oracles are going to make it to final version already because of the low level / high level dynamic.
I think they are fine at a high level but low level players are going to be so confused when they look away from their mineral line and find every worker dead in 5 seconds bc the other guy flew in 4 oracles.
Toss are gonna be pretty much forced to open SG from now on in PvZ I think. Storm as a counter isn't really going to do a great job since mutas regen so quick now. I can eat a full duration storm, fly away for a minute, and come back almost full health. And that's just a full duration storm, which shouldn't happen at all really. More likely scenario is I eat like 30-40 damage and come back in 20s to the same effect.
And I think ZvZ was already going towards the BW style of muta/ling all day every day with the FG projectile. It's so fucking hard to hit mutas now, and it won't even do as much as before now.
On December 13 2012 08:08 DemigodcelpH wrote: So if the Tempest does 80 damage to air now does that mean the battlecruiser isn't viable?
I also don't understand how a unit could possibly do 80 damage when siege tanks and snipers can't even 1 shot a Zergling.
What
The news says "50 damages against massive air units" not 80 o_O
The balance update is referencing their bonus damage, not their total damage. Their bonus damage used to be 30, now it's 50. This is on top of their basic attack of 30, so the total damage against massive, factoring in the bonus damage on top of the basic attack, went from 30+30 to 30+50, which is 60 to 80.
On December 13 2012 08:05 s3rp wrote: The Tempest is change is going to suck for anyone who wants to see BC's in action in TvP . Seriously , 80 damage ? Really ?
It does seem pretty strong. It will now take 6.875 shots from the Tempest to kill a BC at 550 hp. Granted, it already seemed kinda hard to use BCs in TvP due to the existence of Void Rays, Feedback, Storms, and Archon Toilets. It took 9.16 Tempest shots to kill before.
Also, it will now only take 2.8125 Tempest shots to kill a Broodlord at 225 hp. It took 3.75 shots before with the 30 attack bonus vs massive air.
At last!!! Broodlords were too weak against 3-3 thors + 3-3 vikings so early. oO
yhea it was such a long week
What he meant to say: guys I was building broodlords in my games and not winning every time! So glad they fixed it now so terran late game won't be as viable as my own ^_^
I'm sorry but i have to laugh sometimes...terran has been struggling a lot in WoL and HOTS and they continue with random nerfs...and then on top of this they buff protoss and zerg...
The armory air upgrades made seperate i completely understand but i mean...come on what about late game zerg? still nothing has been sorted out for this. Such a shame that we are back in this position where we are going to struggle to answer it.
On December 13 2012 08:04 Zaurus wrote: ZvZ is gonna be lame. Z used to have scourge in BW, you could still win with lesser mutas. There are not much defenswe advantage for mutas now.
Don't worry, scourge will be one of the new units for Zerg in Legacy of the Void :D
One thing that I dislike about the Muta changes combined with the Infestor from patch #8 is that it almost makes Muta a MUST in ZvZ unless you're GODLY with fungals, and you go Hydras. And if you're forced into Hydras, then Muta ling bane can dodge the fungal projectile a LOT easier and work quite well imo :/
On December 13 2012 08:19 Finnz wrote: I'm sorry but i have to laugh sometimes...terran has been struggling a lot in WoL and HOTS and they continue with random nerfs...and then on top of this they buff protoss and zerg...
The armory air upgrades made seperate i completely understand but i mean...come on what about late game zerg? still nothing has been sorted out for this. Such a shame that we are back in this position where we are going to struggle to answer it.
They should rather merge attack than armor I feel, especially since hots is all about flying units.
On December 13 2012 08:10 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: hmmm dunno if I like the muta change. If feel like window mines simply shouldn't hit air and leave the mutas as is. The nerfed infestor already leaves me wary for the future of ZvZ :/
This is the biggest problem with Muta in ZvT. One single widow mine can do INSANE amounts of damage and instantly wipe out a flock of mutas (flock? murder of mutas? I don't know the precise terms).
i'm very happy with the way zerg are being treated in this game. nothing is blatantly overpowered, and they're carefully/slowly making small changes here and there to make sure they're a really balanced race.
unlike how they're treating terran and protoss, with huge overhauls that affect gameplay at a very large level (medivac buff for example)...then they "fix" the race right as people get comfortable with the changes, so it feels like toss/terrans have to constantly be changing playstyles, and that isn't always easy to do, especially at high levels of play i'm sure.
small changes, with fixes seem to be the way to go. i'm very happy with HotS.
and people saying mutas are a "must" in ZvZ...i mean were they ever a "bad" option? not really. fungal nullified them, and now they're useful/safe to use. i think the ZvZ matchup will be a lot more interesting. buffing zerg mid game is never a bad thing - as it was completely non-existant before HotS.
now they need to fix the swarm host into a better tool imo.
On December 13 2012 08:20 Existor wrote: I want to remember you, that tempests doing anti-massive damage only vs air units (including colossus).
To ultralisks and thors they're still doing standard damage
Wait what aren't ultras and thors massive? Why would it not effect them?
From balance patch #8
Attacks with two weapons. The primary weapon, Kinetic Overload, hits air units and remains unchanged. The secondary weapon, Resonance Coil, hits ground units, and does not deal bonus damage to massive units.
On December 13 2012 08:04 Zaurus wrote: ZvZ is gonna be lame. Z used to have scourge in BW, you could still win with lesser mutas. There are not much defenswe advantage for mutas now.
Don't worry, scourge will be one of the new units for Zerg in Legacy of the Void :D
Nah in LotV they will scrap Mothership, the Mothership Core will be called T.F.B.T.T.S "The Floaty Blue Thing That Spins", and they will add Raynor, Zeratul, and Kerrigan as Hero units available from tier 1.
They still haven't addressed the Queen, or the roach, or the macro mechanics overly-encouraging passive play, or inflated supply values, or chain-fungals / forcefields. Why are they still throwing darts? Instead of attacking problems, they just throw more layers of stuff onto the game and hope that'll please people.
Don't like this patch. What is up with this tempest damage? Do they never want a BC built in TvP? And I was getting hyped about mech in hots... Also I really don't see why mutas need any more buffs.
On December 13 2012 07:40 -NegativeZero- wrote: Tempest 80 dmg vs massive air?... I don't think anyone is ever going to make a colossus in a PvP again lol
I'd still make 2-3 and force my enemy to make tempests, then make nothing else that tempests are good against.
Alternatively, phoenix openers into colossi could be strong if your opponent didn't also open stargate. Your phoenix will make his getting tempests pretty difficult.
On December 13 2012 08:23 nomyx wrote: HotS is looking great. All these stargate openings I'm going to be doing in PvZ remind me so much of Brood War
Will HotS be the return of Bisu? I hope it will be so, but I still hope Flash will be better
And hopefully, server downtime shouldn't be too long. Balance update #8 came with a ton of UI updates that probably also caused some server problems that extended the downtime. This time shouldn't be too long.
On December 13 2012 08:23 nomyx wrote: HotS is looking great. All these stargate openings I'm going to be doing in PvZ remind me so much of Brood War
Will HotS be the return of Bisu? I hope it will be so, but I still hope Flash will be better
And hopefully, server downtime shouldn't be too long. Balance update #8 came with a ton of UI updates that probably also caused some server problems that extended the downtime. This time shouldn't be too long.
opening stargate in bw and opening stargate in sc2 isnt the same thing at all. atleast in bw you had a air splash attak, now mass muta wont care about any dmg at all they gonna suck up all the dmg while killing every probe then leave and be full heatlh 45 sec later
On December 13 2012 07:40 -NegativeZero- wrote: Tempest 80 dmg vs massive air?... I don't think anyone is ever going to make a colossus in a PvP again lol
Gosh, and tempest vs tempest battles will go every quickly lol.
On December 13 2012 08:23 nomyx wrote: HotS is looking great. All these stargate openings I'm going to be doing in PvZ remind me so much of Brood War
Will HotS be the return of Bisu? I hope it will be so, but I still hope Flash will be better
And hopefully, server downtime shouldn't be too long. Balance update #8 came with a ton of UI updates that probably also caused some server problems that extended the downtime. This time shouldn't be too long.
opening stargate in bw and opening stargate in sc2 isnt the same thing at all. atleast in bw you had a air splash attak, now mass muta wont care about any dmg at all they gonna suck up all the dmg while killing every probe then leave and be full heatlh 45 sec later
Well, the tempests did have splash at first. Any reason why they changed it?
IMHO muta buff just tipped the balance to break ZvZ to be a ClusterFuck of muta vs Muta. Without infestor accurate fungals it's going to only be muta vs muta...... When ZvZ was the most diverse and interesting MU in WoL. They gotta watch into this I feel.
On December 13 2012 08:29 kochanfe wrote: Wow, so Caduceus Reactor now changes medivac healing color. This should change the metagame!
LOL I know right? It will be a nice visual indicator that the Terran has the upgrade, like burrow movement for roaches and somersaults for baneling speed.
I feel like the difference in viability between bio and mech is the same as of right now in hots as it was when WOL came out. (Meaning that bio is once again stronger, imo.)
On December 13 2012 08:23 nomyx wrote: HotS is looking great. All these stargate openings I'm going to be doing in PvZ remind me so much of Brood War
Will HotS be the return of Bisu? I hope it will be so, but I still hope Flash will be better
And hopefully, server downtime shouldn't be too long. Balance update #8 came with a ton of UI updates that probably also caused some server problems that extended the downtime. This time shouldn't be too long.
opening stargate in bw and opening stargate in sc2 isnt the same thing at all. atleast in bw you had a air splash attak, now mass muta wont care about any dmg at all they gonna suck up all the dmg while killing every probe then leave and be full heatlh 45 sec later
Well, the tempests did have splash at first. Any reason why they changed it?
Protoss players weren't struggling as much against Mutas anymore in WoL, so they changed the Tempest to the 22 range monstrosity that they toned down during the beta.
On December 13 2012 08:32 cyberamine wrote: IMHO muta buff just tipped the balance to break ZvZ to be a ClusterFuck of muta vs Muta. Without infestor accurate fungals it's going to only be muta vs muta...... When ZvZ was the most diverse and interesting MU in WoL. They gotta watch into this I feel.
It wasn't that diverse... Not nearly like it was too good to try and change it.
I'm not sure I'm going to like what this new patch leads to. Buffing Mutas so much will affect the PvZ MU quite a lot, in the favor of the Zerg. Why? Now that Mutas are a viably powerful mid-game option the only way to beat it would be to go 2x Stargate which in turn also gets hardcountered by Hydras, mid-game as well. Storm is not really an option anymore since Mutas can dodge a lot easier and now with such high regen, I think storm won't be nearly as effective. If Zerg can deny Protoss scouting, which is very easy, the Protoss must either decide to go Collosus or 2x Stargate, two very expensive choices, especially time wise, and reduce the MU into a build order coinflip. And even if you scout the Spire all the Zerg has to do is build a Hydra den and can instantly switch to that while Protoss will be way too far behind to get any Collosus in time to deal with that.
I agree with most of these changes. Oracle was a little to strong and the colore change for the medivac is needed since most major updates are visible ingame. Only the muta change is to much i fear. Especially in pvz this is going to be a problem. Already with the speedbuff Protoss are almost forced to go templar (if they didn't open stargate). With the life regen it's going to be even more difficult.
Did anyone catch that video that qxc made awhile ago regarding units and passive abilities? I feel like Blizzard has added way too many passive abilities in the game. Granted, they did also add a lot of active abilities, however I feel like too many passive abilities are making the game a little too... I don't want to say "easy" but that seems to be the only thing coming to mind right now. I feel like any unit that has a passive ability can just be massed and a-moved. Now I know this isn't true for all units with passives, but I feel like Blizzard needs to ease up when they decide to make a change.
With all that being said, this IS a beta, and I'd rather have this experimentation stuff happen during a beta test than to have it happen after release.
On December 13 2012 08:32 cyberamine wrote: IMHO muta buff just tipped the balance to break ZvZ to be a ClusterFuck of muta vs Muta. Without infestor accurate fungals it's going to only be muta vs muta...... When ZvZ was the most diverse and interesting MU in WoL. They gotta watch into this I feel.
lol any change to zvz would be good, this roach infestor vs roach infestor is the reason people stop watching games
I like tat they made the mutalisk more durable. Things like the medivac change and muta change to make units more durable is only really a good thing, it means less blink and it's over mass army battles, with more chance to save units or have longer battles.
Anything that increases longevity is a good thig, hopefuly if they need to do any balancing they will do it by making other units more durable as well,rather than nerfing the muta or adding more damage to something or other.
On December 13 2012 08:32 cyberamine wrote: IMHO muta buff just tipped the balance to break ZvZ to be a ClusterFuck of muta vs Muta. Without infestor accurate fungals it's going to only be muta vs muta...... When ZvZ was the most diverse and interesting MU in WoL. They gotta watch into this I feel.
lol any change to zvz would be good, this roach infestor vs roach infestor is the reason people stop watching games
Yes but we still need something to destroy badly controlled mutalisks, like the scourge in BW, or the baneling against zerglings. Else, it will just be "who is recolting the more gas and has the more mutalissk"... :/
Man I'm scared about ZvZ in HotS even before the muta speed buff let alone this new regen buff. With the fungal nerf (which is much needed of course) alone I feel like zerg needs some kind of new anti-light air splash damage. Won't really affect T or P as they dont really mass banshee or phoenix at competitive levels anyway.
On December 13 2012 08:43 KrazyTrumpet wrote: The hell???? They nerf mech before they nerf the healing rate of the new Medivac upgrade????
Muta HP regen buff?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
How can Blizz go from awesome patch to completely silly patch so damn often
Actually the medivac upgrade made bio durable and microable and made biomech vs ultralingbanelingviper a skilled matchup, where Z needs to flank, to use spells intelligently and so on. This one upgrade only.
On December 13 2012 08:32 cyberamine wrote: IMHO muta buff just tipped the balance to break ZvZ to be a ClusterFuck of muta vs Muta. Without infestor accurate fungals it's going to only be muta vs muta...... When ZvZ was the most diverse and interesting MU in WoL. They gotta watch into this I feel.
lol any change to zvz would be good, this roach infestor vs roach infestor is the reason people stop watching games
Yes but we still need something to destroy badly controlled mutalisks, like the scourge in BW, or the baneling against zerglings. Else, it will just be "who is recolting the more gas and has the more mutalissk"... :/
On December 13 2012 08:34 BeyondCtrL wrote: If Zerg can deny Protoss scouting, which is very easy,
Well hallucination is free now, don't need an upgrade so scouting should be easier.
Oh ya, constantly forgetting about that change :D
But ya, even with scouting it will be very hard. More powerful Mutas mean that you have to put more resources into countering them. I just feel like that a Muta/Hydra tech switch will be too much for Protoss since the Protoss techs that counter them are quite far apart and expensive. Mutas will be even better against Stalkers so it seems that Stargate would be the only viable option... we'll have to see.
On December 13 2012 08:45 imJealous wrote: Man I'm scared about ZvZ in HotS even before the muta speed buff let alone this new regen buff. With the fungal nerf (which is much needed of course) alone I feel like zerg needs some kind of new anti-light air splash damage. Won't really affect T or P as they dont really mass banshee or phoenix at competitive levels anyway.
Toss gonna need to mass air vs zerg because now any splash have will do shit to muta now
On December 13 2012 08:43 KrazyTrumpet wrote: The hell???? They nerf mech before they nerf the healing rate of the new Medivac upgrade????
Muta HP regen buff?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
How can Blizz go from awesome patch to completely silly patch so damn often
Actually the medivac upgrade made bio durable and microable and made biomech vs ultralingbanelingviper a skilled matchup, where Z needs to flank, to use spells intelligently and so on. This one upgrade only.
But it's way too much. 12 hp/s and 4hp/energy would be a lot more reasonable than what it is currently.
On December 13 2012 08:34 BeyondCtrL wrote: If Zerg can deny Protoss scouting, which is very easy,
Well hallucination is free now, don't need an upgrade so scouting should be easier.
Oh ya, constantly forgetting about that change :D
But ya, even with scouting it will be very hard. More powerful Mutas mean that you have to put more resources into countering them. I just feel like that a Muta/Hydra tech switch will be too much for Protoss since the Protoss techs that counter them are quite far apart and expensive. Mutas will be even better against Stalkers so it seems that Stargate would be the only viable option... we'll have to see.
I think that storm + stargate will still be viable. Storms to lower the HP of the mutas, and phoenix to kill them before they regen. And storm counters hydras. So its ok.
On December 13 2012 08:43 KrazyTrumpet wrote: The hell???? They nerf mech before they nerf the healing rate of the new Medivac upgrade????
Muta HP regen buff?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
How can Blizz go from awesome patch to completely silly patch so damn often
Actually the medivac upgrade made bio durable and microable and made biomech vs ultralingbanelingviper a skilled matchup, where Z needs to flank, to use spells intelligently and so on. This one upgrade only.
But it's way too much. 12 hp/s and 4hp/energy would be a lot more reasonable than what it is currently.
Why? I mean they cant out heal banelings, and they are barely outhealing roach hidra is played correctly and Ultras doesnt give a **** about medivacs healing.
On December 13 2012 08:48 AdrianHealey wrote: Corrupter splash against air light (might make some interesting muta/corrupter fights?)
And corrupter needs something 'cool'.
Although I don't think the Corruptor's basic auto-attack should be changed, I think replacing the Corruption ability with something interesting could be a good solution.
On December 13 2012 08:32 cyberamine wrote: IMHO muta buff just tipped the balance to break ZvZ to be a ClusterFuck of muta vs Muta. Without infestor accurate fungals it's going to only be muta vs muta...... When ZvZ was the most diverse and interesting MU in WoL. They gotta watch into this I feel.
lol any change to zvz would be good, this roach infestor vs roach infestor is the reason people stop watching games
Yes but we still need something to destroy badly controlled mutalisks, like the scourge in BW, or the baneling against zerglings. Else, it will just be "who is recolting the more gas and has the more mutalissk"... :/
The Swarm Host spawning Scourge instead of Locusts, and having Scourge hit both ground and air sound good =)
I saw the Armory upgrade change coming and Oracle change is really nice, it's a nerf, but will make it feel more like an ability instead of just another unit with an attack.
I hope they remove the Tempest, it is stupid.. This unit will just be in the game, to disallow the opponent to make any Colossus/Battlecruisers/Broodlords/Carriers, whilst being a unit that never gets made, because people won't make these units in the first place. So essentially it's a unit that removes complexity and narrows the game down.
In WoL it's hard to defend Mutas without having opened Stargate and with having opened Stargate, you deal with Mutas too well, in HotS it feels like this is even more the case, where it should go the other way, being more all round. Also would be cooler if regen was a ability, where they go into a cocoon like thingy, increasing armor, but not being able to move for some time.
Gosh, and tempest vs tempest battles will go every quickly lol.
Void Ray/Phoenix will rape mass tempests
No it won't? I'm pretty sure well positioned Tempest behind cannon and a decently sized ground force would beat that. Of course 1a vs 1a Tempest would most probably lose.
EDIT: Protoss meta-game might even become like mass air (Tempest / Voidray / Pheonix) though.
On December 13 2012 07:36 Cyro wrote: A bit wary of more muta buffs (1.38hp per real second wowza) but im not too sure how they perform on beta in pro level play.
Other changes are good, dark shrine one honestly expected, Weapon/Armor upgrades on mech/air makes sense and is in a good place with that i think.
think about it though, both races have gained HUGE buffs to mutalisk defense, terran with widow mines, and toss with oracles/range seven phoenixes.
honestly they needed something
in other thoughts, i would like to see some more tweaking done to HSM (add some splash and reduce single target damage perhaps) as in their current form they are basically a yamato cannon.
On December 13 2012 08:34 BeyondCtrL wrote: If Zerg can deny Protoss scouting, which is very easy,
Well hallucination is free now, don't need an upgrade so scouting should be easier.
Oh ya, constantly forgetting about that change :D
But ya, even with scouting it will be very hard. More powerful Mutas mean that you have to put more resources into countering them. I just feel like that a Muta/Hydra tech switch will be too much for Protoss since the Protoss techs that counter them are quite far apart and expensive. Mutas will be even better against Stalkers so it seems that Stargate would be the only viable option... we'll have to see.
I think that storm + stargate will still be viable. Storms to lower the HP of the mutas, and phoenix to kill them before they regen. And storm counters hydras. So its ok.
I don't like that this makes bruising mutas with storms useless. For a unit that's based around avoiding conflict/damage, adding fast regen makes it too easy to get away with mistakes, and means that wounding a unit that should never face combat long enough to die no longer matters. If you knock his mutas to half health now, he has to be way more careful and less agressive, and you're rewarded for defending well. Now, he'll be right back to fill health 30 secs later.
On December 13 2012 07:36 Cyro wrote: A bit wary of more muta buffs (1.38hp per real second wowza) but im not too sure how they perform on beta in pro level play.
Other changes are good, dark shrine one honestly expected, Weapon/Armor upgrades on mech/air makes sense and is in a good place with that i think.
think about it though, both races have gained HUGE buffs to mutalisk defense, terran with widow mines, and toss with oracles/range seven phoenixes.
honestly they needed something
Mutas were already dead in WoL... So yes, they needed a buff.
On December 13 2012 07:36 Cyro wrote: A bit wary of more muta buffs (1.38hp per real second wowza) but im not too sure how they perform on beta in pro level play.
Other changes are good, dark shrine one honestly expected, Weapon/Armor upgrades on mech/air makes sense and is in a good place with that i think.
think about it though, both races have gained HUGE buffs to mutalisk defense, terran with widow mines, and toss with oracles/range seven phoenixes.
Nerfing mech already? It is still bad vs protoss, u know... And I would rather have mix attack upgrade. Anyway, the muta buff looks already imba vs toss. I didnt understand the mine change.
On December 13 2012 07:36 Cyro wrote: A bit wary of more muta buffs (1.38hp per real second wowza) but im not too sure how they perform on beta in pro level play.
Other changes are good, dark shrine one honestly expected, Weapon/Armor upgrades on mech/air makes sense and is in a good place with that i think.
think about it though, both races have gained HUGE buffs to mutalisk defense, terran with widow mines, and toss with oracles/range seven phoenixes.
honestly they needed something
how is the oracle a buff for def to muta neither of the beam the the slow zone affect air unit
On December 13 2012 07:36 Cyro wrote: A bit wary of more muta buffs (1.38hp per real second wowza) but im not too sure how they perform on beta in pro level play.
Other changes are good, dark shrine one honestly expected, Weapon/Armor upgrades on mech/air makes sense and is in a good place with that i think.
think about it though, both races have gained HUGE buffs to mutalisk defense, terran with widow mines, and toss with oracles/range seven phoenixes.
honestly they needed something
Oracles againts mutas? Think about it again.
Obviously, timewarp needs to hit air. Thats a bit dumb that it doesnt hit air, as it's affecting the TIME of an area...
So now Brood Lords are unable to exist in PvZ, because they will be 3-shotted by tempests. That seems a little extreme as a toss player and I'm sure to a Zerg plaer...
On December 13 2012 08:23 nomyx wrote: HotS is looking great. All these stargate openings I'm going to be doing in PvZ remind me so much of Brood War
Will HotS be the return of Bisu? I hope it will be so, but I still hope Flash will be better
And hopefully, server downtime shouldn't be too long. Balance update #8 came with a ton of UI updates that probably also caused some server problems that extended the downtime. This time shouldn't be too long.
opening stargate in bw and opening stargate in sc2 isnt the same thing at all. atleast in bw you had a air splash attak, now mass muta wont care about any dmg at all they gonna suck up all the dmg while killing every probe then leave and be full heatlh 45 sec later
Well, the tempests did have splash at first. Any reason why they changed it?
Protoss players weren't struggling as much against Mutas anymore in WoL, so they changed the Tempest to the 22 range monstrosity that they toned down during the beta.
It's not that Protoss players struggled less against Mutas, it's that Zerg discovered better strategies.
I'm curious to see how the Oracle continues to evolve - it got a failing grade from Idra when he and WhiteRa had an impromptu series.
On December 13 2012 07:36 Cyro wrote: A bit wary of more muta buffs (1.38hp per real second wowza) but im not too sure how they perform on beta in pro level play.
Other changes are good, dark shrine one honestly expected, Weapon/Armor upgrades on mech/air makes sense and is in a good place with that i think.
think about it though, both races have gained HUGE buffs to mutalisk defense, terran with widow mines, and toss with oracles/range seven phoenixes.
On December 13 2012 08:58 Ironmammoth wrote: So now Brood Lords are unable to exist in PvZ, because they will be 3-shotted by tempests. That seems a little extreme as a toss player and I'm sure to a Zerg plaer...
They just want to discourage infestor brood as much as possible so it appears much less. if a toss goes heavy robo that's when zerg should go broodlords now I guess. But this is strange because the toss' new units all come from stargate tech...
On December 13 2012 08:23 nomyx wrote: HotS is looking great. All these stargate openings I'm going to be doing in PvZ remind me so much of Brood War
Will HotS be the return of Bisu? I hope it will be so, but I still hope Flash will be better
And hopefully, server downtime shouldn't be too long. Balance update #8 came with a ton of UI updates that probably also caused some server problems that extended the downtime. This time shouldn't be too long.
opening stargate in bw and opening stargate in sc2 isnt the same thing at all. atleast in bw you had a air splash attak, now mass muta wont care about any dmg at all they gonna suck up all the dmg while killing every probe then leave and be full heatlh 45 sec later
Well, the tempests did have splash at first. Any reason why they changed it?
Protoss players weren't struggling as much against Mutas anymore in WoL, so they changed the Tempest to the 22 range monstrosity that they toned down during the beta.
It's not that Protoss players struggled less against Mutas, it's that Zerg discovered better strategies.
I'm curious to see how the Oracle continues to evolve - it got a failing grade from Idra when he and WhiteRa had an impromptu series.
No, it's just that protoss figured out how to win against muta.
Take +2 blink asap, place photon canons, wait for storms... and go. Works pretty well on any map. And any error from the zerg player is autowin for the protoss. Weakened mutas = zerg loose.
On December 13 2012 07:36 Cyro wrote: A bit wary of more muta buffs (1.38hp per real second wowza) but im not too sure how they perform on beta in pro level play.
Other changes are good, dark shrine one honestly expected, Weapon/Armor upgrades on mech/air makes sense and is in a good place with that i think.
think about it though, both races have gained HUGE buffs to mutalisk defense, terran with widow mines, and toss with oracles/range seven phoenixes.
honestly they needed something
The oracle? Maybe you're thinking the oracle attacks air when it doesn't, but even then... it would die before doing anything. I don't know if revelation is worth that cost. I wouldn't get it for that, at least. Time warp doesn't affect air units, either.
Range 7? Takes forever to get that, and I still think massing phoenixes is always a suckers move. The bigger deal would def be the starting range of 5. Purifier is the biggest aid that toss has gotten versus Mutas. I'm actually fond of the idea of storm doing even less against mutas now, as I find games funny where people think that's the answer; it will only add to my enjoyment.
If I have an issue, it's my fear of trying to make mass anything viable. How many compositions of just 1 unit can work? And even if they can, why would you want it? That said, I would find watching base trade games a lot more enjoyable than what I see in WoL, no question.
On December 13 2012 09:01 DemigodcelpH wrote: Just calculated that Mutalisks heal about 1.4 per real life second now. Sounds way too powerful.
If a pack of Mutas eat a full storm they will need a bit less than 60 in-game seconds to heal back to full. Seeing as how Mutas are now easier than ever to dodge out of storms I don't think they will ever take more than 50% of a storm. The amount of storms you would need to cast to get the same effect as before is non-comparable since the Mutas would be on a timer.
On December 13 2012 07:36 Cyro wrote: A bit wary of more muta buffs (1.38hp per real second wowza) but im not too sure how they perform on beta in pro level play.
Other changes are good, dark shrine one honestly expected, Weapon/Armor upgrades on mech/air makes sense and is in a good place with that i think.
think about it though, both races have gained HUGE buffs to mutalisk defense, terran with widow mines, and toss with oracles/range seven phoenixes.
honestly they needed something
The oracle? Maybe you're thinking the oracle attacks air when it doesn't, but even then... it would die before doing anything. I don't know if revelation is worth that cost. I wouldn't get it for that, at least. Time warp doesn't affect air units, either.
Range 7? Takes forever to get that, and I still think massing phoenixes is always a suckers move. The bigger deal would def be the starting range of 5. Purifier is the biggest aid that toss has gotten versus Mutas. I'm actually fond of the idea of storm doing even less against mutas now, as I find games funny where people think that's the answer; it will only add to my enjoyment.
If I have an issue, it's my fear of trying to make mass anything viable. How many compositions of just 1 unit can work? And even if they can, why would you want it? That said, I would find watching base trade games a lot more enjoyable than what I see in WoL, no question.
I had a great idea in my head, but I totally wasn't thinking :/. What you said does make sense, i still think vs terran mutas needed something, but i honestly don't know with toss
They can maybe remove widow's mine air attack or make it less effective/single target/less damage vs Air. Now that they have added carrier BW micro with leash range, they can maybe buff mutas by making stacking a bit easier; make them have moving shots without deceleration like in BW. Of course, remove the regeneration buff if you do that.
God, Mutas were already lame as fuck to deal with, now it's even worse t_t Pulsar Beam change is quite interesting tho, it's a nerf when you don't attack for too long, and a buff if you attack for a longer time
The tempest buff is insane. Tempest compositions own everything lategame. We're back to the protoss deathball except it's stronger than ever.
The muta buff makes storms pretty much useless against mutas since they have more than enough time to get out before they're dead, feels very "noob" friendly. Wish they would have buffed their HP instead.
Protoss was already by far the strongest race after Patch 8, i can't imagine how strong they are going to be after this patch is in action.
It's been 2 years, and i'm still waiting for the tank buff.
Looks like a really solid balance patch, I did feel the armory buff last patch was to much and a bit boring. Mutalisk change will be interesting as it doesn't make them stronger but rather gives them more long term utililty, boring name thou Mutalisk Regeneration...a nice twist to that would be to call it something like "Hibernation" increasing regen to 2.0 but making the muta sleep until fully healed.
On December 13 2012 09:15 FeyverN wrote: Goodbye, Brood Lords.
Big congrats to Blizzard for practically deleting them in late game ZvP.
There is this unit call the ultralisk, the tempest doesn't do bonus damage to it. You can tech switch between the two, beause zerg tech switch > protoss tech switching.
I like the Muta buff, it follows the vein of previous patches to transition away from Infestors into Muta play more. Maybe the regeneration speed is a little too good, but Mutas are fragile for their cost, and if Blizzard wants more use of them in all match-ups, this one one way to do it. DT Shrine cost reduction was inevitable, and the Armory solution won't be used yet, but I think we will see the issue revisited in the future.
The Tempest is going to be the death of BLs and Skyterran against Protoss though ;_; Eighty damage is insanely powerful, and I think in the attempt to make it viable against BLs, most air options will be weakened against Protoss.
On December 13 2012 09:10 Sakray wrote: God, Mutas were already lame as fuck to deal with, now it's even worse t_t Pulsar Beam change is quite interesting tho, it's a nerf when you don't attack for too long, and a buff if you attack for a longer time
If you get an Oracle and go in with 50 energy the old beam would consume that in 12.5s. New beam would go in take 25 for activation and last for 12.5s. No difference on how long you can use it. The difference now is that you are totally committed to using all the energy to be effective. The old beam you could activate and deactivate as you needed it to conserve the energy making much more versatile. Imagine that you use all energy and want to go back in for a 3 sec harass, you would need to wait to have 12 energy, now you need 31 energy to do the same. It's a nerf of how often you can harass with it. To be honest I wasn't all to convinced that it was even good enough since good players could always shut it down quite effectively.
Even worse is the fact that this will drastically reduce the versatility of the unit to switch between harasser and army support. For that activation cost you could go harass for 6s and come back and maybe have enough energy, or almost enough to cast a time warp or revelation. 25 is way, way too expensive.
More off the wall changes, don't understand the direction they're going in. They seem to buff without a roadmap in mind for how they want units to be used and how games will play out. They just say "unit A too good=nerf, unit b too bad=buff." The health buff for mutas is just odd.
if blizz want mutas viable in zvt they should just do what it was in bw, make turrets not nearly as scary and let you be able to actually stack/micro them.
On December 13 2012 09:23 LuckyFool wrote: if blizz want mutas viable in zvt they should just do what it was in bw, make turrets not nearly as scary and let you be able to actually stack/micro them.
instead they change the hp regen? what...
Yeah apparently making movement/accelerating not so floaty and slow is bad for blizzard. It's weird how they refuse to give mutas the trait they need most, the ability to micro and have an instant start and stop animation.
On December 13 2012 09:22 SuperYo1000 wrote: Not to worried about the muta buff......since Phoenix can upgrade to 7 range. SUPER easy to kite mutas since you have over double their range.
On December 13 2012 09:22 SuperYo1000 wrote: Not to worried about the muta buff......since Phoenix can upgrade to 7 range. SUPER easy to kite mutas since you have over double their range.
On December 13 2012 09:23 LuckyFool wrote: if blizz want mutas viable in zvt they should just do what it was in bw, make turrets not nearly as scary and let you be able to actually stack/micro them.
instead they change the hp regen? what...
EDIT: nevermind. If mutas had instant start/stop so you could really micro them, they would probably be prettty sick.
Just as a side note Tempts buff gives it a DPS of 24 verse massive. Thats not that scary since carriers have a DPS of 26 verse everything. Its obviously still strong cuz of the huge range but just thought I would point that out before the huge shit storm comes because of it
On December 13 2012 09:22 SuperYo1000 wrote: Not to worried about the muta buff......since Phoenix can upgrade to 7 range. SUPER easy to kite mutas since you have over double their range.
So Protoss users can never go robo vs Zerg?
um close position robo timings work the same exact way that they do in WoL. you're theorycrafting way too much.
mutas got better survivability, that's literally the only thing that changed.
besides, toss are using stargate opening with every build - including robo builds. you see muta, you react accordingly (terran and zerg seem to react properly). why is that concept so hard for toss players :p
i'd also like to point out that the nexus static D will buy enough time for any response to mutas. it's a full minute of heavy hitting, and that is very very powerful.
This the key spot for the armory. It is now equal for all races. ish. I havent played agaist Dt rushes or toss air in a while. Any1 knwo if they fixed the mac problem, my friend has a mac. I am waiting for the Pheonix upgrade to be taken out. It makes them way to good. They now have the same range as the viking, but attack faster, and move faster. I just want a tiny nerf.
On December 13 2012 09:30 SC_THORLORD wrote: This the key spot for the armory. It is now equal for all races. ish. I havent played agaist Dt rushes or toss air in a while. Any1 knwo if they fixed the mac problem, my friend has a mac.
ya its called buy a pc.....lol sorry, I couldnt resist, I actually havent seen any mac improvements in a LONG time.
Wow as if Mutas aren't OP as it is. Blizzard keeps giving Zerg all these good updates when they honestly don't need anymore. They need to focus more on how to fix Terran and Protoss.
They will be lucky if I even buy the game because they have just ran Protoss into the ground.
Seriously...all these Zerg players in this thread calling widow mines "good" especially vs mutas. Do you watch or play any HotS? Widow mines are terrrrrrible at the moment.
I feel like they are changing things up a bit too quickly. I had misgivings about the upgrades for Terran and the cost of DT Shrine, but was willing to let them at least pan out and see what happened. I can't help but wonder why they are making such rapid adjustments.
As a Zerg also I feel like the Muta change is unnecessary.
On December 13 2012 09:30 SC_THORLORD wrote: This the key spot for the armory. It is now equal for all races. ish. I havent played agaist Dt rushes or toss air in a while. Any1 knwo if they fixed the mac problem, my friend has a mac.
ya its called buy a pc.....lol sorry, I couldnt resist, I actually havent seen any mac improvements in a LONG time.
Trust me I know. I have a PC, and he is getting 1, just he is my only friend with the beta, and i want to try the patches out against him.
I'm a little worried about this tempest change. It affects their damage vs. broodlords, battlecruisers, carriers and other tempests, and while I'm fine with them countering the first three, I'm a bit worried that the best counter to tempests in PvP is going to be making your own tempests, in which case we just get current WoL PvP except with mass tempests rather than mass colossi. Though that could be total bullshit, I haven't played enough HotS PvP to know whether this is actually a potential issue or not.
On December 13 2012 09:34 TimENT wrote: Seriously...all these Zerg players in this thread calling widow mines "good" especially vs mutas. Do you watch or play any HotS? Widow mines are terrrrrrible at the moment.
Because widow mines need to take less supply, do less damages, and not hit air. And then, it will be a good unit.
On December 13 2012 09:34 TimENT wrote: Seriously...all these Zerg players in this thread calling widow mines "good" especially vs mutas. Do you watch or play any HotS? Widow mines are terrrrrrible at the moment.
I play random at masters level in HotS and widow mines are extreamly good! Maybe you are forgetting to burrow them? QQ
On December 13 2012 09:34 TimENT wrote: Seriously...all these Zerg players in this thread calling widow mines "good" especially vs mutas. Do you watch or play any HotS? Widow mines are terrrrrrible at the moment.
You make no point...
Widow mines are not where they should be, but that doesnt mean they kill all Muta and Dropplay against terran by making it a lottery if u might run over one by chance
On December 13 2012 09:34 TimENT wrote: Seriously...all these Zerg players in this thread calling widow mines "good" especially vs mutas. Do you watch or play any HotS? Widow mines are terrrrrrible at the moment.
Because widow mines need to take less supply, do less damages, and not hit air. And then, it will be a good unit.
I like the new widow mine change, blizzard are really trying to make them useful in battle, mutalisk change looks crazy! DT change was deserved and the mech changes seem a good compromise, it stops the possibility of a sudden tech switch and leads to having to invest more heavily in whichever path you take.
On December 13 2012 09:34 TimENT wrote: Seriously...all these Zerg players in this thread calling widow mines "good" especially vs mutas. Do you watch or play any HotS? Widow mines are terrrrrrible at the moment.
Because widow mines need to take less supply, do less damages, and not hit air. And then, it will be a good unit.
penixes, oracles, mscore, tempests, carriers, mutas, vipers ... all the 'cool' new stuff in hots flies. If WM's can't hit flying unit, then I don't see their point.
On December 13 2012 09:34 TimENT wrote: Seriously...all these Zerg players in this thread calling widow mines "good" especially vs mutas. Do you watch or play any HotS? Widow mines are terrrrrrible at the moment.
Seriously your post makes me wonder if you play hots.
If you know how to burrow widows and you know your opponent is going mutalisk you would know how good they are vs mutas.
They should not be able to hit air and be buffed elsewhere to compensate.
On December 13 2012 09:34 TimENT wrote: Seriously...all these Zerg players in this thread calling widow mines "good" especially vs mutas. Do you watch or play any HotS? Widow mines are terrrrrrible at the moment.
Because widow mines need to take less supply, do less damages, and not hit air. And then, it will be a good unit.
penixes, oracles, mscore, tempests, carriers, mutas, vipers ... all the 'cool' new stuff in hots flies. If WM's can't hit flying unit, then I don't see their point.
Huh? Widows are good vs the ground composition or should be, not both. It's not like all races are all of a sudden going only air, so if widows couldn't hit air and were stronger vs ground they would be good as every race still has to have ground units.
not so sure about this muta buff. In zvz they were already very good because of the infestor nerf, and in zvp they were still good if toss doesn't have stargates for pheonix. The only problem was in zvt where widow mines kind of just shut down muta play, if they had just fixed that mutas would be viable in zvt aswell.
On December 13 2012 09:34 TimENT wrote: Seriously...all these Zerg players in this thread calling widow mines "good" especially vs mutas. Do you watch or play any HotS? Widow mines are terrrrrrible at the moment.
Seriously your post makes me wonder if you play hots.
If you know how to burrow widows and you know your opponent is going mutalisk you would know how good they are vs mutas.
They should not be able to hit air and be buffed elsewhere to compensate.
Mutas are being in a different role in TvZ right now, they are maintaining mapcontrol and can fight off drops with speed and with +HP regen they will fulfill this role even better. This is their first role. Their secondary role is to raid worker lines, which got harder.
think about this before you cry QQ on mines, they are good early game, but they are just a waste of supply in the lategame againts any decent longrange composition of P or Z.
I still think that 1 supply mines, with 80 damages instead of 160 and no air hitting would be better. More space control and less random overpowerness. (Because i still think that if a widow mines kills 30 lings or 2 mutas by a lucky rocket, its only by luck... Such a random unit.) And a 1 supply mine would be better to deal with chargelots and toss in general when going mech, obviously.
On December 13 2012 09:34 Twilight Sparkle wrote: I'm a little worried about this tempest change. It affects their damage vs. broodlords, battlecruisers, carriers and other tempests, and while I'm fine with them countering the first three, I'm a bit worried that the best counter to tempests in PvP is going to be making your own tempests, in which case we just get current WoL PvP except with mass tempests rather than mass colossi. Though that could be total bullshit, I haven't played enough HotS PvP to know whether this is actually a potential issue or not.
voids rip them apart with the over charge....
Catching tempest out of position with blink stalkers will always be a super efficient trade, their DPS verse ground is 9...a stalker DPS is 10 verse armored...so ya not to worried about it. And remember that they have no MASSIVE bonus verse ground so archons can be a good comp verse heavy tempest compared to colossus
On December 13 2012 07:36 Cyro wrote: A bit wary of more muta buffs (1.38hp per real second wowza) but im not too sure how they perform on beta in pro level play.
Other changes are good, dark shrine one honestly expected, Weapon/Armor upgrades on mech/air makes sense and is in a good place with that i think.
think about it though, both races have gained HUGE buffs to mutalisk defense, terran with widow mines, and toss with oracles/range seven phoenixes.
I'm weary of the muta change, but I'll try it out before I pass any type of opinions of it. But overall, I feel like Blizzard is doing pretty good with these beta patches.
On December 13 2012 09:48 Insoleet wrote: I still think that 1 supply mines, with 80 damages instead of 160 and no air hitting would be better. More space control and less random overpowerness. (Because i still think that if a widow mines kills 30 lings or 2 mutas by a lucky rocket, its only by luck... Such a random unit.) And a 1 supply mine would be better to deal with chargelots and toss in general when going mech, obviously.
If you take AA-from widow mines you need to massivly buff the new Thor anti-air.
On December 13 2012 09:48 Insoleet wrote: I still think that 1 supply mines, with 80 damages instead of 160 and no air hitting would be better. More space control and less random overpowerness. (Because i still think that if a widow mines kills 30 lings or 2 mutas by a lucky rocket, its only by luck... Such a random unit.) And a 1 supply mine would be better to deal with chargelots and toss in general when going mech, obviously.
If you take AA-from widow mines you need to massivly buff the new Thor anti-air.
On December 13 2012 09:48 Insoleet wrote: I still think that 1 supply mines, with 80 damages instead of 160 and no air hitting would be better. More space control and less random overpowerness. (Because i still think that if a widow mines kills 30 lings or 2 mutas by a lucky rocket, its only by luck... Such a random unit.) And a 1 supply mine would be better to deal with chargelots and toss in general when going mech, obviously.
If you take AA-from widow mines you need to massivly buff the new Thor anti-air.
And nerf mutas like hell.
or give terran the goliath.
Goliaths aren't all that great vs Mutas since they only do 1/2 their damage vs mutalisks.
On December 13 2012 07:38 blade55555 wrote: If they want mutas to be used in zvt they need to make it so widows can't hit air or it can't hit mutas at least -_-.
Kinda surprised at the sudden terran weapon attack nerf that seems fair though.
Not sure if they gave the oracle pulsar beam a buff or a nerf? How much energy did it cost to activate before if any?
Tempests doesn't matter I don't go broods and dark shrine increase saw that coming xD.
None. It was a free toggle. So this is a nerf in a way.
It's an interesting change. It makes it a buff against one base, so they run in and kill everything there since the beam will last much longer. Now it's just a question of how much energy is wasted going between bases, since you choose between keeping it activated or reactivating it again for another 25 energy. If you wait for 100 energy then you have 32 seconds of pulsar beam.. which seems like plenty to kill 2 bases worth of drones.
On December 13 2012 09:48 Insoleet wrote: I still think that 1 supply mines, with 80 damages instead of 160 and no air hitting would be better. More space control and less random overpowerness. (Because i still think that if a widow mines kills 30 lings or 2 mutas by a lucky rocket, its only by luck... Such a random unit.) And a 1 supply mine would be better to deal with chargelots and toss in general when going mech, obviously.
If you take AA-from widow mines you need to massivly buff the new Thor anti-air.
And nerf mutas like hell.
or give terran the goliath.
Goliaths aren't all that great vs Mutas since they only do 1/2 their damage vs mutalisks.
On December 13 2012 09:50 Zergrusher wrote: I would love to hear the reasoning of un-doing the Sky/Mech attack upgrade.
Because it gave so much potential for other units to be mixed in more and more comps and made mech and sky better.
Looks like they still want bio to be The strongest option
Most likely because you would have 3/3 vikings vs 1/1 broodlord/corruptor which felt a bit too strong. The only problem is now vikings are back to being terrible on the ground @_@
On December 13 2012 09:48 Insoleet wrote: I still think that 1 supply mines, with 80 damages instead of 160 and no air hitting would be better. More space control and less random overpowerness. (Because i still think that if a widow mines kills 30 lings or 2 mutas by a lucky rocket, its only by luck... Such a random unit.) And a 1 supply mine would be better to deal with chargelots and toss in general when going mech, obviously.
If you take AA-from widow mines you need to massivly buff the new Thor anti-air.
And nerf mutas like hell.
or give terran the goliath.
Goliaths aren't all that great vs Mutas since they only do 1/2 their damage vs mutalisks.
Well if for whatever reason they take anti-air from the widow mine they should re-introduce the warhound as a highly mobile anti-air with limited ground attack.
On December 13 2012 09:48 Insoleet wrote: I still think that 1 supply mines, with 80 damages instead of 160 and no air hitting would be better. More space control and less random overpowerness. (Because i still think that if a widow mines kills 30 lings or 2 mutas by a lucky rocket, its only by luck... Such a random unit.) And a 1 supply mine would be better to deal with chargelots and toss in general when going mech, obviously.
If you take AA-from widow mines you need to massivly buff the new Thor anti-air.
And nerf mutas like hell.
or give terran the goliath.
Goliaths aren't all that great vs Mutas since they only do 1/2 their damage vs mutalisks.
And even so they are better AA than Thors are.
Yep, more mobile, massable and attack faster without being capable of ridiculous all ins with repair.
The issue of Terran mech/air upgrades is that both upgrades and armory are too expensive. Why all terran upgrades costs 100/175/250 while zergs and protoss 100/150/200? -.-
On December 13 2012 10:07 pivor wrote: The issue of Terran mech/air upgrades is that both upgrades and armory are too expensive. Why all terran upgrades costs 100/175/250 while zergs and protoss 100/150/200? -.-
On December 13 2012 09:48 Insoleet wrote: I still think that 1 supply mines, with 80 damages instead of 160 and no air hitting would be better. More space control and less random overpowerness. (Because i still think that if a widow mines kills 30 lings or 2 mutas by a lucky rocket, its only by luck... Such a random unit.) And a 1 supply mine would be better to deal with chargelots and toss in general when going mech, obviously.
If you take AA-from widow mines you need to massivly buff the new Thor anti-air.
And nerf mutas like hell.
or give terran the goliath.
Goliaths aren't all that great vs Mutas since they only do 1/2 their damage vs mutalisks.
And even so they are better AA than Thors are.
Yep, more mobile, massable and attack faster without being capable of ridiculous all ins with repair.
They should've shifted out the Thor for the Warhound like they originally planned. I mean the Thor was never really liked anyway..
On December 13 2012 10:07 pivor wrote: The issue of Terran mech/air upgrades is that both upgrades and armory are too expensive. Why all terran upgrades costs 100/175/250 while zergs and protoss 100/150/200? -.-
zerg costs about the same 100/100 for melee/range 150/150 for carapace, then 150/150 for +2 for air/melee, 225/225 carapace, then +3 is 200/200 ranged/melee and 300/300 for carapace.
On December 13 2012 09:48 Insoleet wrote: I still think that 1 supply mines, with 80 damages instead of 160 and no air hitting would be better. More space control and less random overpowerness. (Because i still think that if a widow mines kills 30 lings or 2 mutas by a lucky rocket, its only by luck... Such a random unit.) And a 1 supply mine would be better to deal with chargelots and toss in general when going mech, obviously.
If you take AA-from widow mines you need to massivly buff the new Thor anti-air.
And nerf mutas like hell.
or give terran the goliath.
Goliaths aren't all that great vs Mutas since they only do 1/2 their damage vs mutalisks.
And even so they are better AA than Thors are.
Yep, more mobile, massable and attack faster without being capable of ridiculous all ins with repair.
They should've shifted out the Thor for the Warhound like they originally planned. I mean the Thor was never really liked anyway..
Blizzard seems to have a philosophy of "our new mediocre units> old units the OTHER guys made." The warhound....eh sure. It would have gotten rebalanced into being a goliath imo anyways at some point. It was kinda of boring though.
Your vote: If you had to pick one, which is better?
(Vote): Mech and Ship WEAPON upgrades are shared (Vote): Mech and Ship ARMOR upgrades are shared
Separate Upgrades pretty bad for Mech in TvP.Still impossible due to mass tempes+carriers now.We need At least weapons together to got Vikings able to kill the Protoss air.The armor doesnt help so much as Weapons.Its a bad change,but overall there are almost no changes.
The Oracle is nerfed and it may needed,because 3 of them killed all my worker line.Mutas change is ok.Let see if people leave infestor and start using them more to fight.
On December 13 2012 07:38 SarcasmMonster wrote: I love balance patches <3
Edit: Mutalisks should "leech", ie. gain life for every Glaive wurm + splash that hits an enemy unit/strucutre.
That way it rewards the player for being active and attacking/harassing by healing them. If you can splash 3 units, than that procs the leech 3 times. The passive regen is nice but I think it can be better
I personally love this idea, also make them only leech on biological. So Protoss doesn't have to go for double starport every game.
On December 13 2012 10:07 pivor wrote: The issue of Terran mech/air upgrades is that both upgrades and armory are too expensive. Why all terran upgrades costs 100/175/250 while zergs and protoss 100/150/200? -.-
Um, because protoss have shields that make up 50% the HP for a ton of core units? Zerg have have a whole upgrade that only affects 2 units?(melee) And protoss is crushing people with that extra 125/125 minerals and gas. That whole stalker and part of a senty wins me games all the time.
Anyone beside me think it kinda confusing having vechicle and air one seperate but one together? I would think from a newer player perspective, it just make little sense.Anyways, this makes it a lot harder for terran mech to deal with toss air and make mech less viable then before but it does seem a bit too strong vs zerg.
On December 13 2012 10:14 SheaR619 wrote: Anyone beside me think it kinda confusing having vechicle and air one seperate but one together? I would think from a newer player perspective, it just make little sense.Anyways, this makes it a lot harder for terran mech to deal with toss air and make mech less viable then before but it does seem a bit too strong vs zerg.
I always thought it was weird how has different attack upgrades for ground units. But this is weirder.
On December 13 2012 10:07 pivor wrote: The issue of Terran mech/air upgrades is that both upgrades and armory are too expensive. Why all terran upgrades costs 100/175/250 while zergs and protoss 100/150/200? -.-
Did you know that Air Armor upgrades in WoL cost 150/225/300 for no apparent reason for Terran? Not having upgrades that randomly cost more than any other upgrade you have is still nice.
On December 13 2012 10:07 pivor wrote: The issue of Terran mech/air upgrades is that both upgrades and armory are too expensive. Why all terran upgrades costs 100/175/250 while zergs and protoss 100/150/200? -.-
Did you know that Air Armor upgrades in WoL cost 150/225/300 for no apparent reason for Terran? Not having upgrades that randomly cost more than any other upgrade you have is still nice.
Well now it does! Considering that it upgrading for both air and ground mech now :D
I think Terran ship/air weapons should be left as they were, that change gave them a lot more flexibility in the late-game with mech and allowed them some sort of skyterran transition.
Muta change is good, but I think giving every harassment unit in the game extra regen is a little weird, maybe giving some of them late-game abilities? Because reapers/mutas will not see any more usage than at the moment.
Oracle change is cool, highlights the idea that it is a hit and run unit. Tempest seems way too powerful vs massive now, and PvP will be tempest vs tempest.
On December 13 2012 10:32 InoyouS2 wrote: I think Terran ship/air weapons should be left as they were, that change gave them a lot more flexibility in the late-game with mech and allowed them some sort of skyterran transition.
Muta change is good, but I think giving every harassment unit in the game extra regen is a little weird, maybe giving some of them late-game abilities? Because reapers/mutas will not see any more usage than at the moment.
Oracle change is cool, highlights the idea that it is a hit and run unit. Tempest seems way too powerful vs massive now, and PvP will be tempest vs tempest.
I realized the same thing too. They seem to be buffing all the harassing units to try and move player away from the death ball. Make sense since you cant really get rid of the death ball syndrome but you can buff everything else that isnt part of the death ball to make it less viable to make a death ball or atleast achieving it isnt so easily unpunishable.
On December 13 2012 09:34 TimENT wrote: Seriously...all these Zerg players in this thread calling widow mines "good" especially vs mutas. Do you watch or play any HotS? Widow mines are terrrrrrible at the moment.
Seriously your post makes me wonder if you play hots.
If you know how to burrow widows and you know your opponent is going mutalisk you would know how good they are vs mutas.
They should not be able to hit air and be buffed elsewhere to compensate.
On December 13 2012 09:34 TimENT wrote: Seriously...all these Zerg players in this thread calling widow mines "good" especially vs mutas. Do you watch or play any HotS? Widow mines are terrrrrrible at the moment.
Because widow mines need to take less supply, do less damages, and not hit air. And then, it will be a good unit.
penixes, oracles, mscore, tempests, carriers, mutas, vipers ... all the 'cool' new stuff in hots flies. If WM's can't hit flying unit, then I don't see their point.
Huh? Widows are good vs the ground composition or should be, not both. It's not like all races are all of a sudden going only air, so if widows couldn't hit air and were stronger vs ground they would be good as every race still has to have ground units.
If Mines were to no longer hit air units it would be time just to scrap the entire unit or give it a complete overhaul as far as function. They add very little to the Mech composition, especially to how it plays, without the anti-air capability. Especially now that they nerfed focus fire with them.
Even though you are a relatively high level player Blade5555 and I respect your opinion, I still haven't heard a good argument as to why (high level at least) Zerg's won't be able to just use multiple Overseers to harass. As in, keeping an Overseer outside of the bases that you would harass, and using them to sweep for mines shortly before you poke into that base with your Mutas. Is it because of the risk of a Terran player simply planting Widow Mines outside of their base - just randomly on the map? (Because you can't keep an Overseer with your Muta pack at all times without drastically slowing them down?)
On December 13 2012 10:16 Breach_hu wrote: Still, without shared upgrades TvP mech is essentially dead, and in TvZ mech will die to BL queen viper infestor still.
Just go back to all mech/ship upgrades shared. I really don't think it's overpowered. It's hard to justify these upgrades without a really odd and likely impractical unit composition.
The mutalisk buff is interesting too. I think something along those lines could definitely help them to stay relevant in their role as a harass unit without making them overpowered.
On December 13 2012 09:34 TimENT wrote: Seriously...all these Zerg players in this thread calling widow mines "good" especially vs mutas. Do you watch or play any HotS? Widow mines are terrrrrrible at the moment.
Seriously your post makes me wonder if you play hots.
If you know how to burrow widows and you know your opponent is going mutalisk you would know how good they are vs mutas.
They should not be able to hit air and be buffed elsewhere to compensate.
On December 13 2012 09:42 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
On December 13 2012 09:35 Insoleet wrote:
On December 13 2012 09:34 TimENT wrote: Seriously...all these Zerg players in this thread calling widow mines "good" especially vs mutas. Do you watch or play any HotS? Widow mines are terrrrrrible at the moment.
Because widow mines need to take less supply, do less damages, and not hit air. And then, it will be a good unit.
penixes, oracles, mscore, tempests, carriers, mutas, vipers ... all the 'cool' new stuff in hots flies. If WM's can't hit flying unit, then I don't see their point.
Huh? Widows are good vs the ground composition or should be, not both. It's not like all races are all of a sudden going only air, so if widows couldn't hit air and were stronger vs ground they would be good as every race still has to have ground units.
If Mines were to no longer hit air units it would be time just to scrap the entire unit or give it a complete overhaul as far as function. They add very little to the Mech composition, especially to how it plays, without the anti-air capability. Especially now that they nerfed focus fire with them.
Even though you are a relatively high level player Blade5555 and I respect your opinion, I still haven't heard a good argument as to why (high level at least) Zerg's won't be able to just use multiple Overseers to harass. As in, keeping an Overseer outside of the bases that you would harass, and using them to sweep for mines shortly before you poke into that base with your Mutas. Is it because of the risk of a Terran player simply planting Widow Mines outside of their base - just randomly on the map? (Because you can't keep an Overseer with your Muta pack at all times without drastically slowing them down?)
I agree with you but because of widowmine, they must buff muta up the butt to compensate for one unit. All these buff to mutas could really skewer the zvp match up just trying to keep mine in the game. Although taking the anti air out of mine terran mech will be impossible. Right now terran mech can fight toss ground to ground decently well, atleast in last patch. The only problem was toss air transition that completely wrecks it. Same goes to zerg viper BL w/e ball.
On December 13 2012 10:58 HaruHaru wrote: I hope blizzard changes the hydralisk attack animation / sound. It is one of the most unsatisfying things to watch in SC2
More importanly you should hope they undo the nerfs they gave it in WOL's beta.
those nerfs combined with how expensive grooved spines are( Really hydralisk should have 6 range default and no range upgrade at all but thats beside the point) Ruined the Unit.
On December 13 2012 10:58 HaruHaru wrote: I hope blizzard changes the hydralisk attack animation / sound. It is one of the most unsatisfying things to watch in SC2
Totally. I miss the green spitting hydralisks of old!
New patch looks interesting, but I'm still unsure how mutas fare against widow mines. This coming from someone who does not have the beta.
Dark Shrine should be cheap, or (much better) just be Templar tech (would delay dt's anyway).
And I really hope Oracle get use, but if it can't hit the board once is out, considering the huge gas requirement, is gonna be useless as Void Rays in WoL right now.
In PvZ, the new muta make a must the stargate play from the P, or a 10 min all-in. Blink is not gonna be enough aganist the new mutas, so any non-sg macro play is almost a lose vs muta. That blind bo win sucks.
I really am curious now......how in gods name does Terran beat Tempests in the late game? The only reliable way to beat them before if you went mech was BC with Yamato, but now that the bonus against massive is so big I don't know if that is even feasible anymore. Protoss super air army may be impossible for Terran to stop.
now BC's are once again shit because of tempest making mech even harder vs p.
also the upgrade nerf makes it even harder to switch to air in the late game, i thought blizzard wanted mech to be viable in all matchups and the generally stronger late game combo.
On December 13 2012 11:08 shockaslim wrote: I really am curious now......how in gods name does Terran beat Tempests in the late game? The only reliable way to beat them before if you went mech was BC with Yamato, but now that the bonus against massive is so big I don't know if that is even feasible anymore. Protoss super air army may be impossible for Terran to stop.
I think the new Thor attack should get some Bonus damage to massive or should be better overall to compensate. Right Toss air is probably not really beatable Vikings really don't cut it alone and the rest of Terran anti-air is a total joke against this.
I just want the beta to work on my Apple OS again! PLEASE AND THANK YOU! Also these changes look like more goodness except mutas ?might? be too good in zvp and zvz now?
My initial thoughts of this patch bring me back to QXC's, fixing the game. I agree that passive abilities are boring and don't make for interesting play. If the idea is to make mutas regen health faster, than perhaps instead of a passive ability, the muta can get something that gives health based on their glaive worm attack. Or maybe even successful attacks have a chance to proc a health regen. I'm not sure...I like the buff, but not the execution of it.
On December 13 2012 07:59 Insoleet wrote: Mutalisk change is very good. Now we will be able to use muta even after they have take hits from stalker/marines. Very good idea.
Before, once muta did a bad move, it was basically gg...
On December 13 2012 11:14 Maxd11 wrote: I just want the beta to work on my Apple OS again! PLEASE AND THANK YOU! Also these changes look like more goodness except mutas ?might? be too good in zvp and zvz now?
On December 13 2012 11:14 Maxd11 wrote: I just want the beta to work on my Apple OS again! PLEASE AND THANK YOU! Also these changes look like more goodness except mutas ?might? be too good in zvp and zvz now?
On December 13 2012 10:07 pivor wrote: The issue of Terran mech/air upgrades is that both upgrades and armory are too expensive. Why all terran upgrades costs 100/175/250 while zergs and protoss 100/150/200? -.-
Um, because protoss have shields that make up 50% the HP for a ton of core units? Zerg have have a whole upgrade that only affects 2 units?(melee) And protoss is crushing people with that extra 125/125 minerals and gas. That whole stalker and part of a senty wins me games all the time.
People are still using this argument? I mean I guess stim and combat shields should be 50/50 because that only saves the cost of 1 medivac. It must not have a huge impact right? Oh wait, there are things such as timings and economy.
On December 13 2012 10:56 Beakyboo wrote: Just go back to all mech/ship upgrades shared. I really don't think it's overpowered. It's hard to justify these upgrades without a really odd and likely impractical unit composition.
The mutalisk buff is interesting too. I think something along those lines could definitely help them to stay relevant in their role as a harass unit without making them overpowered.
absolutely not. being able to go from 3/3 thors into 3/3 viking battlecruisers without researching anything else is ridiculous.
On December 13 2012 11:20 SoBeDragon wrote: My initial thoughts of this patch bring me back to QXC's, fixing the game. I agree that passive abilities are boring and don't make for interesting play. If the idea is to make mutas regen health faster, than perhaps instead of a passive ability, the muta can get something that gives health based on their glaive worm attack. Or maybe even successful attacks have a chance to proc a health regen. I'm not sure...I like the buff, but not the execution of it.
I thought this would be really cool too, but it might make mutas too powerful during engagements.
On December 13 2012 10:56 Beakyboo wrote: Just go back to all mech/ship upgrades shared. I really don't think it's overpowered. It's hard to justify these upgrades without a really odd and likely impractical unit composition.
The mutalisk buff is interesting too. I think something along those lines could definitely help them to stay relevant in their role as a harass unit without making them overpowered.
absolutely not. being able to go from 3/3 thors into 3/3 viking battlecruisers without researching anything else is ridiculous.
Still have to add 4-5 ports with tech labs and a fusion core and research yamato cannon.
On December 13 2012 10:56 Beakyboo wrote: Just go back to all mech/ship upgrades shared. I really don't think it's overpowered. It's hard to justify these upgrades without a really odd and likely impractical unit composition.
The mutalisk buff is interesting too. I think something along those lines could definitely help them to stay relevant in their role as a harass unit without making them overpowered.
absolutely not. being able to go from 3/3 thors into 3/3 viking battlecruisers without researching anything else is ridiculous.
Still have to add 4-5 ports with tech labs and a fusion core and research yamato cannon.
Not to mention that tempest is incredibly op now against bcs and there is no more reason to build bcs in TvP at all. Want a yamato? Use the raven, it's much better in everything.
On December 13 2012 07:34 eviltomahawk wrote: Medivac Caduceus Reactor The Medivac’s healing beam now changes color once the Caduceus Reactor upgrade is complete. 4
On December 13 2012 11:20 SoBeDragon wrote: My initial thoughts of this patch bring me back to QXC's, fixing the game. I agree that passive abilities are boring and don't make for interesting play. If the idea is to make mutas regen health faster, than perhaps instead of a passive ability, the muta can get something that gives health based on their glaive worm attack. Or maybe even successful attacks have a chance to proc a health regen. I'm not sure...I like the buff, but not the execution of it.
I agree that passive abilities are kinda boring, but the WORST thing by far we can have in an RTS game as complex as SC2 is proc chance.
On December 13 2012 07:34 eviltomahawk wrote: Medivac Caduceus Reactor The Medivac’s healing beam now changes color once the Caduceus Reactor upgrade is complete. 4
Why such a big Terran nerf?!?!?!!?
Were you not here around the Blueflame icon buff? This is totally a metagame changing buff not a nerf.
On December 13 2012 11:20 SoBeDragon wrote: My initial thoughts of this patch bring me back to QXC's, fixing the game. I agree that passive abilities are boring and don't make for interesting play. If the idea is to make mutas regen health faster, than perhaps instead of a passive ability, the muta can get something that gives health based on their glaive worm attack. Or maybe even successful attacks have a chance to proc a health regen. I'm not sure...I like the buff, but not the execution of it.
I agree that passive abilities are kinda boring, but the WORST thing by far we can have in an RTS game as complex as SC2 is proc chance.
All units should have a chance to do 1-10000 damage
- removed thor - added goliath (possibly with really small splash to air, reason see below) - add air stacking (not as an ability obvious, but by using an overlord or larvae added to your group or via another method) - add moving shot to game - revert passive regeneration on mutalisk - remove swarm host, make the lurker somehow work (-remove collussus? Add other more interesting and skill requiring unit) - remove widow mine - add spider mine to reaper/hellion/... whatever fits best - change fungal to plague - change consume from absorbing builing heatlth to destroying a unit (bw version) - change blinding cloud to dark swarm (toned down perhaps, percentage based damage reduction? like 80 percent or something) - Make ultralisks smaller - change general pathing of units to allow better control (see bw) and destroy deathball - require less workers per base for saturation meaning less income per base and thus allowing more options (low econ games vs high econ games) - significantly tone down spawn larvae/mule and chronoboost - give cooldown advantage to gateways versus warp gates
I think this is everything. Obviously balance any issues which may arise through these changes
I feel like Blizzard is really losing it. This is like fifth or six patch in a row without a single change to the bunker build time. Frankly I'm disgusted and I'm not sure I can continue to watch and play this game anymore.
On a more serious note, I actually dislike the Dark Shrine change, however I think that either dark shrine shoould require a Templar archives (and be correspondingly cheaper and faster to build) or the building should be scrapped and we should go back to Broodwar with the Archives giving both Templar.
The reason for this is it allows the Toss player to get something defensive (storm/feedback/archons) and something to put pressure on their opponents at the same time (DTs) without causing catestrophic damage to their own economy/tech.
P.S. These changes might also make Zerg fun to play again, brood-infestor makes them boring.
On December 13 2012 11:53 wcr.4fun wrote: I would buy hots if:
- removed thor - added goliath (possibly with really small splash to air, reason see below) - add air stacking (not as an ability obvious, but by using an overlord or larvae added to your group or via another method) - add moving shot to game - revert passive regeneration on mutalisk - remove swarm host, make the lurker somehow work (-remove collussus? Add other more interesting and skill requiring unit) - remove widow mine - add spider mine to reaper/hellion/... whatever fits best - change fungal to plague - change consume from absorbing builing heatlth to destroying a unit (bw version) - change blinding cloud to dark swarm (toned down perhaps, percentage based damage reduction? like 80 percent or something) - Make ultralisks smaller - change general pathing of units to allow better control (see bw) and destroy deathball - require less workers per base for saturation meaning less income per base and thus allowing more options (low econ games vs high econ games) - significantly tone down spawn larvae/mule and chronoboost - give cooldown advantage to gateways versus warp gates
I think this is everything. Obviously balance any issues which may arise through these changes
On December 13 2012 11:53 wcr.4fun wrote: I would buy hots if:
- removed thor - added goliath (possibly with really small splash to air, reason see below) - add air stacking (not as an ability obvious, but by using an overlord or larvae added to your group or via another method) - add moving shot to game - revert passive regeneration on mutalisk - remove swarm host, make the lurker somehow work (-remove collussus? Add other more interesting and skill requiring unit) - remove widow mine - add spider mine to reaper/hellion/... whatever fits best - change fungal to plague - change consume from absorbing builing heatlth to destroying a unit (bw version) - change blinding cloud to dark swarm (toned down perhaps, percentage based damage reduction? like 80 percent or something) - Make ultralisks smaller - change general pathing of units to allow better control (see bw) and destroy deathball - require less workers per base for saturation meaning less income per base and thus allowing more options (low econ games vs high econ games) - significantly tone down spawn larvae/mule and chronoboost - give cooldown advantage to gateways versus warp gates
I think this is everything. Obviously balance any issues which may arise through these changes
Why don't we just play BW... -___-
Why don't we play a better version of SC 2 and implement the changes? It's like people want the game to be worse just so they can say it isn't BW. Guess what? Browder's predecessors are kicking his ass right now and they don't even work at blizzard anymore. People being resistant to making it more like BW are absolutely crazy. It's more about making it better rather than making it like BW. BW just happens to be designed better.
On December 13 2012 11:53 wcr.4fun wrote: I would buy hots if:
- removed thor - added goliath (possibly with really small splash to air, reason see below) - add air stacking (not as an ability obvious, but by using an overlord or larvae added to your group or via another method) - add moving shot to game - revert passive regeneration on mutalisk - remove swarm host, make the lurker somehow work (-remove collussus? Add other more interesting and skill requiring unit) - remove widow mine - add spider mine to reaper/hellion/... whatever fits best - change fungal to plague - change consume from absorbing builing heatlth to destroying a unit (bw version) - change blinding cloud to dark swarm (toned down perhaps, percentage based damage reduction? like 80 percent or something) - Make ultralisks smaller - change general pathing of units to allow better control (see bw) and destroy deathball - require less workers per base for saturation meaning less income per base and thus allowing more options (low econ games vs high econ games) - significantly tone down spawn larvae/mule and chronoboost - give cooldown advantage to gateways versus warp gates
I think this is everything. Obviously balance any issues which may arise through these changes
stacking wouldn't even help in sc 2. There is no benefit to it. In fact, it puts your units in more danger. that having been said, you should just keep playing BW. Sc2 obviously is not for you.
It's ok. Muta is so weak in WOL. It's like so much much weaker than in BW. Life used muta vs Parting yesterday twice. And Life lost that 2 games. It's just weak.
On December 13 2012 11:53 wcr.4fun wrote: I would buy hots if:
- removed thor - added goliath (possibly with really small splash to air, reason see below) - add air stacking (not as an ability obvious, but by using an overlord or larvae added to your group or via another method) - add moving shot to game - revert passive regeneration on mutalisk - remove swarm host, make the lurker somehow work (-remove collussus? Add other more interesting and skill requiring unit) - remove widow mine - add spider mine to reaper/hellion/... whatever fits best - change fungal to plague - change consume from absorbing builing heatlth to destroying a unit (bw version) - change blinding cloud to dark swarm (toned down perhaps, percentage based damage reduction? like 80 percent or something) - Make ultralisks smaller - change general pathing of units to allow better control (see bw) and destroy deathball - require less workers per base for saturation meaning less income per base and thus allowing more options (low econ games vs high econ games) - significantly tone down spawn larvae/mule and chronoboost - give cooldown advantage to gateways versus warp gates
I think this is everything. Obviously balance any issues which may arise through these changes
stacking wouldn't even help in sc 2. There is no benefit to it. In fact, it puts your units in more danger. that having been said, you should just keep playing BW. Sc2 obviously is not for you.
But SC 2 isn't even an additive sequel, to this point it's simply a step back. A game like that isn't "for" anyone. People like myself are critical because it has potential, but people having a fetish for units like the colossus just don't get why people complain about deathballs/boring gameplay.
Haha, thought it would be blue. Hoped for pink tho
I was hoping for red/orange/yellow so that it would be super obvious to a viewer. Depending on how bad a quality a stream ends up being, the blue might actually be somewhat difficult to distinguish from green.
Pretty sure the Muta buffs (up regen and max speed) is to make the encourage muta play after the infestor projectile and range nerfs. Certainly will make pressing "T" in Lair that much more fun :D
On December 13 2012 12:21 ETisME wrote: can someone explain the difference in the widow mine?
posted earlier in thread, best reply I could find for you:
On December 13 2012 07:59 eviltomahawk wrote:
As far as the unburrowed Widow Mine target priority change goes, according to the Liquipedia page for attack target priority, an attack priority of 19 will match the attack priorities of uprooted Spine and Spore Crawlers, rooted Spore Crawlers, burrowed Creep Tumors, Missile Turrets, and Bunkers. In comparison, almost all other units have attack priorities of 20, along with Cannons and PFs.
On December 13 2012 11:53 wcr.4fun wrote: I would buy hots if:
- removed thor - added goliath (possibly with really small splash to air, reason see below) - add air stacking (not as an ability obvious, but by using an overlord or larvae added to your group or via another method) - add moving shot to game - revert passive regeneration on mutalisk - remove swarm host, make the lurker somehow work (-remove collussus? Add other more interesting and skill requiring unit) - remove widow mine - add spider mine to reaper/hellion/... whatever fits best - change fungal to plague - change consume from absorbing builing heatlth to destroying a unit (bw version) - change blinding cloud to dark swarm (toned down perhaps, percentage based damage reduction? like 80 percent or something) - Make ultralisks smaller - change general pathing of units to allow better control (see bw) and destroy deathball - require less workers per base for saturation meaning less income per base and thus allowing more options (low econ games vs high econ games) - significantly tone down spawn larvae/mule and chronoboost - give cooldown advantage to gateways versus warp gates
I think this is everything. Obviously balance any issues which may arise through these changes
I like toning down larvae inject, but mule and chrono are both fine. Any master zerg can hit their injects pretty good nowadays anway, so "Zerg is the most mechanically difficult race" argument doesn't hold true anymore.
also lol'ed hard @ you saying bw pathing allows better control of your unit
Personally I like the idea of Mutalisks being able to morph again (into a new type of capital ship).
Though health regen is not a bad idea. It fits with the reaper as harassing units (if you manage them well, you can do terrible terrible damage all game long).
Now there just needs to be Mutalisk stacking again.
Also for Protoss - Bring back the Reaver!
Terran - In TvT, the mech changes made mech too much used over bio (you can transition easily to air).
In other match ups (especially going mech against Zerg), it is definitely a bit too strong.
also lol'ed hard @ you saying [b]bw pathing allows better control of your unit
I think he meant it doesn't lead to death ball syndrome which leads to everything melting in 5 seconds instead of more gradual long drawn out fights. One of the reasons SC2 is more volatile (or that is, there are less consistent players than BW and WC3) is that battles are like a sword fight (sword fights IRL actually end 10 seconds or less). There are much more game costing mistakes in SC2 than BW and WC3. (If your deathball gets caught out of position once, you lose).
In BW and WC3, the fights were more gradual. In BW, there was wave after wave of units attacking (usually, units were everywhere, unlike SC2 which promotes deathballs due to how easy it is to clump them up and have them attack all at once). In WC3, everything just took long.
WC3 has a good balance between SC2 and BW (WC3's pathing doesn't cause the units to clump).
Though, HotS is doing good at making the game more gradual with the new units without actually changing the pathing or anything.
Edit - Whoops, misread. He said pathing allows better control of your unit? A no in that case then (SC2's pathing is much more easier and more intuitive... Dragoons vs Stalkers is a good example, heh).
On December 13 2012 12:38 Goldfish wrote: Personally I like the idea of Mutalisks being able to morph again (into a new type of capital ship).
Though health regen is not a bad idea. It fits with the reaper as harassing units (if you manage them well, you can do terrible terrible damage all game long).
Now there just needs to be Mutalisk stacking again.
Also for Protoss - Bring back the Reaver!
Terran - In TvT, the mech changes made mech too much used over bio (you can transition easily to air).
In other match ups (especially going mech against Zerg), it is definitely a bit too strong.
mutalisks already stack if you control them correctly (look up Gretorp's video on this)
I´ve been waiting for higher regeneration on important zerg units since SC2 released. I hope they give the same regen or faster to roaches and ultras too, but this is definetly a step in the right direction.
Not sure if I agree with making the Oracle harder to use, but overall a good patch.
On December 13 2012 12:46 Forumite wrote: I´ve been waiting for higher regeneration on important zerg units since SC2 released. I hope they give the same regen or faster to roaches and ultras too, but this is definetly a step in the right direction.
Not sure if I agree with making the Oracle harder to use, but overall a good patch.
How about you Burrow them ?...
They gave this to Mutas to make Muta harassment more attractive so Mutas don't become useless at the one thing they're good at when hurt. This is not to improve them as a combat unit so no Ultras will not get this . And Roaches wtf just get the upgrade and burrow them if they're hurt ....
On December 13 2012 12:29 larse wrote: They still need to buff hydra a bit. For example, 90HP and 7 range (upgraded).
no, not like that
They need to Undo- the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got on the past(look this up on Liquidpedia i urge you to!) that made the hydralisk suck in the first place.
THEN they need to Make the range 6 and remove grooved spines(I've been saying this for 2 whole years already)
On December 13 2012 08:20 avilo wrote: Only thing bad about the mech attack upgrades being split is it hurts mech tvp, vikings are back to sucking on the ground -_-
Maybe Vikings' ground weapons should use mech attack upgrades?
I am loving these constant tweaks to the beta. Reminds me of BW, where everything was essentially OP so in the end it was a balanced game.
Does anyone else wish the game could be in a constant state of beta? I just love all the tweaks and new units. Particularly fun is trying all the crazy strategies, since there are few (if any) "standard" builds.
On December 13 2012 08:20 avilo wrote: Only thing bad about the mech attack upgrades being split is it hurts mech tvp, vikings are back to sucking on the ground -_-
Maybe Vikings' ground weapons should use mech attack upgrades?
I think that would be a fair and not obscure or complicated change to make. I don't know if that is "the problem" with Mech vs P, in my 6+ months of playing Mech vs P I feel like there is so many "problems" before it ever becomes an option nearly as attractive as Bio vs P, and not ALL of them need to be solved, but right now there are almost no advantages to playing Mech and so many disadvantages. So I guess I would like to see them address the "game breaking" issues for Mech vs P first. Blink Stalker All-Ins (which thank god they said they will address - to bad not this patch), and Tempest/Templar based armies being essentially unbeatable for a Mech player. Personally, I think Tempests need to be drastically lower in HP...
On December 13 2012 13:19 Ldawg wrote: I am loving these constant tweaks to the beta. Reminds me of BW, where everything was essentially OP so in the end it was a balanced game.
Does anyone else wish the game could be in a constant state of beta? I just love all the tweaks and new units. Particularly fun is trying all the crazy strategies, since there are few (if any) "standard" builds.
While it would be cool from a certain point of view, you have to keep in mind that Sc2 has an extremely prominent E-sports scene, and for this to flourish the game should be kept balanced at all times. Or else you have things like Ryung vs Sniper, where Ryung blamed his losses on the current imbalance.
On December 13 2012 13:19 Ldawg wrote: I am loving these constant tweaks to the beta. Reminds me of BW, where everything was essentially OP so in the end it was a balanced game.
Does anyone else wish the game could be in a constant state of beta? I just love all the tweaks and new units. Particularly fun is trying all the crazy strategies, since there are few (if any) "standard" builds.
While it would be cool from a certain point of view, you have to keep in mind that Sc2 has an extremely prominent E-sports scene, and for this to flourish the game should be kept balanced at all times. Or else you have things like Ryung vs Sniper, where Ryung blamed his losses on the current imbalance.
On December 13 2012 08:50 Xanbatou wrote: why the fuck would they reduce widow mine attack priority?
Because mass widow mines atm are being used as meat shields in the late game.
This is a buff/nerf. Buff because late game widow mines can now "safely" reposition in combat with drilling claws. An enemy has to individually target them down. Nerf because late game, widow mines cannot be used to "tank" for marines by walking in front of them. They have close to double the HP of a marine.
On December 13 2012 08:50 Xanbatou wrote: why the fuck would they reduce widow mine attack priority?
Because mass widow mines atm are being used as meat shields in the late game.
This is a buff/nerf. Buff because late game widow mines can now "safely" reposition in combat with drilling claws. An enemy has to individually target them down. Nerf because late game, widow mines cannot be used to "tank" for marines by walking in front of them. They have close to double the HP of a marine.
lol why would you not use a Hellion in that situation, if you wanted to use anything? I don't see how this was ever a legitimate concern, having a more expensive, slower to build, higher supply unit tanking for Marines with Medivacs. Why would you not just use more Marines?
On December 13 2012 13:19 Ldawg wrote: I am loving these constant tweaks to the beta. Reminds me of BW, where everything was essentially OP so in the end it was a balanced game.
Does anyone else wish the game could be in a constant state of beta? I just love all the tweaks and new units. Particularly fun is trying all the crazy strategies, since there are few (if any) "standard" builds.
While it would be cool from a certain point of view, you have to keep in mind that Sc2 has an extremely prominent E-sports scene, and for this to flourish the game should be kept balanced at all times. Or else you have things like Ryung vs Sniper, where Ryung blamed his losses on the current imbalance.
On December 13 2012 13:19 Ldawg wrote: I am loving these constant tweaks to the beta. Reminds me of BW, where everything was essentially OP so in the end it was a balanced game.
Does anyone else wish the game could be in a constant state of beta? I just love all the tweaks and new units. Particularly fun is trying all the crazy strategies, since there are few (if any) "standard" builds.
While it would be cool from a certain point of view, you have to keep in mind that Sc2 has an extremely prominent E-sports scene, and for this to flourish the game should be kept balanced at all times. Or else you have things like Ryung vs Sniper, where Ryung blamed his losses on the current imbalance.
Was that in a GSL or a live game?
I'm surprised that you didn't hear about this.
It was in the last match of their GSL semi-finals series at IPL5. Right before the GG, Ryung spammed "IMBA IMBA IMBA" in the chat.
The muta and tempest look overbuffed, though I don't have beta. The armory change is welcome, and I can live with it, though I'd still prefer 100% separate upgrades. Dark Shrines for 100/100 was way too cheap. I think we kinda saw that one coming.
As a 'Toss I kinda like the Oracle change. I don't know how I feel about the Muta buff yet. The comment earlier about Mutas gaining life when they do damage seems like good idea. Welp, good patch overall imo.
Remember that although +50 to massive for Tempest looks crazy DPS is more important: Ground Attack: 30 (+ 3) Ground DPS: 9.09 (+ 1) Air Attack: 30 (+ 3) Air DPS: 9.09 (+ 1) Bonus: (+50 vs Massive Air-Only) Bonus DPS: (+15.15 vs Massive Air-Only) Range: 15 Cooldown: 3.3 (Via liquipedia..)
Ground DPS is low, always 9.09. Same for its general air attack. Against massive air DPS is 24.24, much higher.. However BC has 26.7 DPS which scales better with upgrades, has Yamato and 1 more armor. Problem is they both have the same speed so tempest can kite them with superior range for a while.. (Sounds ridiculous..lol)
The tempest has just taken the anti massive role from voids.. This is all pretty irrelevant anyways as BCs are crap against toss because of Templar. Anyone know how Tempest compare with old voids against BCs? BC energy should go.. It seems a little ridiculous that Templar can counter them so hard.
Side note: I don't like how colossus is just being nerfed by making hard-counters against it..IMO the Colossus attack still needs to be looked at.. I hate its current attack path. I'd like to see it be a slower more positional unit for toss. Glad though that it won't totally dominate PvP with these changes though :D. Colossi give me nightmares
On December 13 2012 13:19 Ldawg wrote: I am loving these constant tweaks to the beta. Reminds me of BW, where everything was essentially OP so in the end it was a balanced game.
Does anyone else wish the game could be in a constant state of beta? I just love all the tweaks and new units. Particularly fun is trying all the crazy strategies, since there are few (if any) "standard" builds.
While it would be cool from a certain point of view, you have to keep in mind that Sc2 has an extremely prominent E-sports scene, and for this to flourish the game should be kept balanced at all times. Or else you have things like Ryung vs Sniper, where Ryung blamed his losses on the current imbalance.
yep, that was actually embarrassing to watch. I think it was game 4, but Ryung had a massive supply advantage, and every engagement he split like a god, but sniper was still somehow able to stay in the game with fungals, ultras, and infested terrans. And then to watch the last game, where ryung once again played as good as any terran could in this current time period, but still lost to infestors
I can't believe that still haven't fixed the Mac / OSX issue they created in patch 8. So annoying, they even said they had a fix and it would come in the next patch.. bleh! I hate booting onto a different partition every time.
Why in the world didn't they freaking do anything to kill the stupid 1 Base Blink MSC rushes ,yet ? On a map with a big base how in the world can you ever hold this . I can't build bunker everywhere. More annoying is it when they freaking follow it up with DT's ....
Happy with mostl of these, honestly. The muta regen thing is a good idea that I hadn't considered, but I want to see how it goes. I feel like for mid-game protoss, well-handled mutas are so difficult to actually kill that a successful defense is turning them red and knowing you've bought yourself a couple muta-free minutes. If that's now 30 seconds, that's quite scary.
I'm still hanging out for widow mines not attacking air.
On December 13 2012 12:47 Geos13 wrote: Oh yay the Tempest is being pushed even more into a hard counter role
My prediction -> The possibility of Tempests causes no BLs or colossus to be built against them and so the Tempest itself is never built.
Tempest are actually quite versatile of an air unit. Despite their huge bonuses to massive, once you have a ton of them with plenty of Templar to protect them it's very hard to stop it with non-massive unit compositions.
On December 13 2012 13:19 Ldawg wrote: I am loving these constant tweaks to the beta. Reminds me of BW, where everything was essentially OP so in the end it was a balanced game.
Does anyone else wish the game could be in a constant state of beta? I just love all the tweaks and new units. Particularly fun is trying all the crazy strategies, since there are few (if any) "standard" builds.
While it would be cool from a certain point of view, you have to keep in mind that Sc2 has an extremely prominent E-sports scene, and for this to flourish the game should be kept balanced at all times. Or else you have things like Ryung vs Sniper, where Ryung blamed his losses on the current imbalance.
yep, that was actually embarrassing to watch. I think it was game 4, but Ryung had a massive supply advantage, and every engagement he split like a god, but sniper was still somehow able to stay in the game with fungals, ultras, and infested terrans. And then to watch the last game, where ryung once again played as good as any terran could in this current time period, but still lost to infestors
Yeah and forgetting siege tech in that last game. He played so perfect lol.
So tosses how are you liking the new mutalisks so far?
On December 13 2012 13:19 Ldawg wrote: I am loving these constant tweaks to the beta. Reminds me of BW, where everything was essentially OP so in the end it was a balanced game.
Does anyone else wish the game could be in a constant state of beta? I just love all the tweaks and new units. Particularly fun is trying all the crazy strategies, since there are few (if any) "standard" builds.
While it would be cool from a certain point of view, you have to keep in mind that Sc2 has an extremely prominent E-sports scene, and for this to flourish the game should be kept balanced at all times. Or else you have things like Ryung vs Sniper, where Ryung blamed his losses on the current imbalance.
yep, that was actually embarrassing to watch. I think it was game 4, but Ryung had a massive supply advantage, and every engagement he split like a god, but sniper was still somehow able to stay in the game with fungals, ultras, and infested terrans. And then to watch the last game, where ryung once again played as good as any terran could in this current time period, but still lost to infestors
Yeah and forgetting siege tech in that last game. He played so perfect lol.
So tosses how are you liking the new mutalisks so far?
I don't agree that it has to be balanced at all times to flourish. For example, if we are to consider WoL decently balanced right now, then the early WoL was imbalanced. Yet, the scene was still flourishing.
It would be interesting and fun if the strategies/units kept changing every few years, but that's pretty much like making a new game haha (you'd have to change the things in such a way as to keep the design still interesting and "making sense" and not just changing random things)
but it would still be fun to watch/play, since it would be less about playing perfectly with a balanced game and more like discovering what strategies are the best and how to play in an unstable metagame
but then again, a similar idea can be applied, in the forms of new and interesting maps :D just to a lesser extent
That is a pretty huge muta buff. I'm excited to try it out, as I've always preferred muta play to anything else in the midgame and have felt limited in midgame options at times due to the strength of Infestors (they can feel indispensable in some games).
On December 13 2012 15:28 thezanursic wrote: Caduceus Reactor what's that?
The upgrade that gives Medivacs an increased healing rate.
I think it's extremely important for you posters to know that I was the one who suggested that change. Therefore I'm officially a SC2 game designer, and my opinion matters more than everyone elses.
oh my... SC2 is becoming Brood War, in this meaning that it is now collection of OP units. Same as in BW - you know: BW's Tanks, HTs and so on. In HOTS: Medivacs, Reapers, Mutas, Tempests(?) I don't know if I like it, but man... pro games, tournaments, this is going to be interesting.
One more thing. Long time ago Blizzard nerfed Hellions because they were OP in... TvT. Even before that they nerfed Reapers, coz of OP in TvZ. In HOTS new Reapers are definitely too powerful in TvT. They don't seem to be a problem in other matchups, but they cause same problem in TvT as Hellions caused long time ago. I wonder when they are going to be changed.
On the topic of colour changes, how's the colour contrast of Zerg units in HOTS?
Broodlings and Infestor eggs are indistinguishable in WOL, which make it very hard to understand which is whose in Zerg mirrors. Will Blizzard be fixing this?
On December 13 2012 15:36 Asturas wrote: oh my... SC2 is becoming Brood War, in this meaning that it is now collection of OP units. Same as in BW - you know: BW's Tanks, HTs and so on. In HOTS: Medivacs, Reapers, Mutas, Tempests(?) I don't know if I like it, but man... pro games, tournaments, this is going to be interesting.
One more thing. Long time ago Blizzard nerfed Hellions because they were OP in... TvT. Even before that they nerfed Reapers, coz of OP in TvZ. In HOTS new Reapers are definitely too powerful in TvT. They don't seem to be a problem in other matchups, but they cause same problem in TvT as Hellions caused long time ago. I wonder when they are going to be changed.
Reapers makes TvT a bit wierd but it doesn't neccesarly break the matchup. Yeah Gasless openings are extremely hard to pull off ( but not impossible if you're careful ) but other than that i think it's fine . You can allways build a few Reaper yourself and put them in a bunker ( watching other reapers get torn apart by a reaper bunker is hillarious , almost as fun as watching a horde of zerglings get destroyed by 4 reapers in a bunker and your opponent scream imba ^^ ) or get a marauder or fasttech to widow mines.
The more and more time that passes the better HOTS is getting. I've been playing Protoss ever since the Wings beta (having switched from Zerg in brood war) and while I do enjoy playing Protoss, I want to go back to my Zerg roots. The buffs to the hydralisk and mutalisk (both of which were my first and second favorite units) are making me really excited. It was first the roach and the infestor that pushed me away from switching back to Zerg, but with all these HOTS changes (not just to zerg but to all the races) SC2 is becoming a much better game to watch and play. And I love it.
Quick question for those in the beta, how are swarm hosts looking?
The muta change I am not crazy about. It feels like a contrived excuse to keep widow Mines in as a (badly designed) anti air unit for Terran. I am disappointed blizz did not yet make boost speed for medivac cost energy (rather than Cooldown). I also think tempests were strong enough... The other changes were good I guess.
Overall I'm still excited that blizzard is continuing to implement patches.
To be honest, i am not that excited about the health regeneration buff given to mutalisks.
It doesn't make them stronger in a fight. They might last one more hit because of faster regeneration. The regeneration might help them get back in the fight faster....(but queen's quick heal role is already doing that).
The faster acceleration buff is actually a lot better. You can dance around the army and harass like a ninja.
On December 13 2012 15:28 thezanursic wrote: Caduceus Reactor what's that?
The upgrade that gives Medivacs an increased healing rate.
I think it's extremely important for you posters to know that I was the one who suggested that change. Therefore I'm officially a SC2 game designer, and my opinion matters more than everyone elses.
It only matters if you say you´re high masters and you should know that by now.
Mutalisk change looks good. So they were onto something with the reaper regeneration. ^^
Wish they adressed the Seeker Missile, but that will probably come soon.
On December 13 2012 15:36 Asturas wrote: oh my... SC2 is becoming Brood War, in this meaning that it is now collection of OP units. Same as in BW - you know: BW's Tanks, HTs and so on. In HOTS: Medivacs, Reapers, Mutas, Tempests(?) I don't know if I like it, but man... pro games, tournaments, this is going to be interesting.
One more thing. Long time ago Blizzard nerfed Hellions because they were OP in... TvT. Even before that they nerfed Reapers, coz of OP in TvZ. In HOTS new Reapers are definitely too powerful in TvT. They don't seem to be a problem in other matchups, but they cause same problem in TvT as Hellions caused long time ago. I wonder when they are going to be changed.
Reapers makes TvT a bit wierd but it doesn't neccesarly break the matchup. Yeah Gasless openings are extremely hard to pull off ( but not impossible if you're careful ) but other than that i think it's fine . You can allways build a few Reaper yourself and put them in a bunker ( watching other reapers get torn apart by a reaper bunker is hillarious , almost as fun as watching a horde of zerglings get destroyed by 4 reapers in a bunker and your opponent scream imba ^^ ) or get a marauder or fasttech to widow mines.
I imagine that Reapers will get nerfed sometime later in the beta. According to developer posts on B.net, they purposely made the Reaper OP to see their full potential before dialing back their power for balance purposes. If Reapers aren't actually OP right now despite all their buffs, then that would be rather interesting.
On December 13 2012 16:17 Graphix wrote: i dont understand the reason for buffing mutalisks and buffing widow mines the patch previous. widow mines destroy mutas in zvt
Yeah, they destroy 1 muta and the rest can wreak havoc the mineral line anyway...and now they can also heal up the splash done by the mine before it shoots again.
Bio based compositions are insane in zvt. Drops are faster, healing bio is better (lings worse), reaper openings are better, widow mines wreck mutas if they aren't super careful (meaning just the threat of mines tones down harass and they have to bring an overseer which is sooo much slower than mutas or they have to be constantly split which destroys muta harass dps), hellbats are immortal vs lings, and infestors are nearly useless....and with mutas being risky and infestors being terrible, drops are even better just because they're much harder to shut down.
Yeah ultras are better vs marines but it's still a million times better for bio centric stuff now. I'm actually considering opening ling/bane/hydra into either vipers or ultras depending on tank count.
On December 13 2012 16:21 aksfjh wrote: I think Blizzard officially gives up with mech with this patch. Thanks.
I think so too. Mech in TvZ became almost impossible because of Swarm Hosts and in TvP is still impossible, because most P units are "designed" to be good vs Mech. Pity. I love Mech.
On December 13 2012 15:36 Asturas wrote: oh my... SC2 is becoming Brood War, in this meaning that it is now collection of OP units. Same as in BW - you know: BW's Tanks, HTs and so on. In HOTS: Medivacs, Reapers, Mutas, Tempests(?) I don't know if I like it, but man... pro games, tournaments, this is going to be interesting.
One more thing. Long time ago Blizzard nerfed Hellions because they were OP in... TvT. Even before that they nerfed Reapers, coz of OP in TvZ. In HOTS new Reapers are definitely too powerful in TvT. They don't seem to be a problem in other matchups, but they cause same problem in TvT as Hellions caused long time ago. I wonder when they are going to be changed.
Reapers makes TvT a bit wierd but it doesn't neccesarly break the matchup. Yeah Gasless openings are extremely hard to pull off ( but not impossible if you're careful ) but other than that i think it's fine . You can allways build a few Reaper yourself and put them in a bunker ( watching other reapers get torn apart by a reaper bunker is hillarious , almost as fun as watching a horde of zerglings get destroyed by 4 reapers in a bunker and your opponent scream imba ^^ ) or get a marauder or fasttech to widow mines.
I imagine that Reapers will get nerfed sometime later in the beta. According to developer posts on B.net, they purposely made the Reaper OP to see their full potential before dialing back their power for balance purposes. If Reapers aren't actually OP right now despite all their buffs, then that would be rather interesting.
They still aren't very good against Protoss . A smart toss will just skip the Zealot if he scouts you going Reaper so you're not going to archive anything with them. I tried Ebayblocking as a response but with mixed results. I TvZ they are nice but def. not OP not even close . TvT is the only thing where they're dicey because they own marines so hard and a gasless Terran doesn't have anything else.
Id like point out that muta openings are going to be insanely effective against mech now because of how awful thors are against them already and now they will just heal the splash dmg much more quickly.
On December 13 2012 16:33 WeaponX.7 wrote: Id like point out that muta openings are going to be insanely effective against mech now because of how awful thors are against them already and now they will just heal the splash dmg much more quickly.
Maybe in hots you can go mech with mines to defend, they're aoe right?
I love the muta change since they make TvZ so much more exciting and they really are a core unit in the game.
On December 13 2012 15:36 Asturas wrote: oh my... SC2 is becoming Brood War, in this meaning that it is now collection of OP units. Same as in BW - you know: BW's Tanks, HTs and so on. In HOTS: Medivacs, Reapers, Mutas, Tempests(?) I don't know if I like it, but man... pro games, tournaments, this is going to be interesting.
One more thing. Long time ago Blizzard nerfed Hellions because they were OP in... TvT. Even before that they nerfed Reapers, coz of OP in TvZ. In HOTS new Reapers are definitely too powerful in TvT. They don't seem to be a problem in other matchups, but they cause same problem in TvT as Hellions caused long time ago. I wonder when they are going to be changed.
Reapers makes TvT a bit wierd but it doesn't neccesarly break the matchup. Yeah Gasless openings are extremely hard to pull off ( but not impossible if you're careful ) but other than that i think it's fine . You can allways build a few Reaper yourself and put them in a bunker ( watching other reapers get torn apart by a reaper bunker is hillarious , almost as fun as watching a horde of zerglings get destroyed by 4 reapers in a bunker and your opponent scream imba ^^ ) or get a marauder or fasttech to widow mines.
I imagine that Reapers will get nerfed sometime later in the beta. According to developer posts on B.net, they purposely made the Reaper OP to see their full potential before dialing back their power for balance purposes. If Reapers aren't actually OP right now despite all their buffs, then that would be rather interesting.
Surly the problem is that it is overshadowed by another unit? Don't Terran already have a fast anti-light herassing unit, I can't seem to remember ㅠㅠ ? Seriously though, why have two units that totally overlap? They can't keep buffing and nerfing and adding abilities. It needs another kind of change IMO. Maybe make it a less anti-light unit and give it back its' building attack (It could then be a ground mutalisk that can't attack air ^^).
On December 13 2012 16:33 WeaponX.7 wrote: Id like point out that muta openings are going to be insanely effective against mech now because of how awful thors are against them already and now they will just heal the splash dmg much more quickly.
Maybe in hots you can go mech with mines to defend, they're aoe right?
I love the muta change since they make TvZ so much more exciting and they really are a core unit in the game.
have mines sitting in my base and expos taking up 10, 20 supply doing nothing :\
Look guys, the tempest change is not a buff. The way I'm reading it, Tempests' air weapon was unintentionally reduced to 30 with the last patch, and they've fixed it so it actually does more damage than the ground weapon now.
That would explain why I got raped by a colossus-stalker player with stalker-tempest-immortal yesterday, lol.
On December 13 2012 16:33 WeaponX.7 wrote: Id like point out that muta openings are going to be insanely effective against mech now because of how awful thors are against them already and now they will just heal the splash dmg much more quickly.
Maybe in hots you can go mech with mines to defend, they're aoe right?
I love the muta change since they make TvZ so much more exciting and they really are a core unit in the game.
have mines sitting in my base and expos taking up 10, 20 supply doing nothing :\
Having 10-20 supply defending your bases lategame isn't that big of an anomaly, last time i checked.. And i'm pretty sure widow mines are more cost effective than most things defending bases.
Or you could build turrets? I don't wanna sound rude, but turrets are used in WoL against mutas, as anyone tested how they are faring against the HoTS Mutas?
Mutas so hard to deal with as protoss now. I just got killed by an opponent who massed muta. Tho tempest are okay to deal with mutas, its still so hard to take a 3rd base.
There are pheonix which with the +2 range buff can deal with mutas no problem...are u sure you are kidding about using tempest vs mutas?
On December 13 2012 16:57 shin_toss wrote: Mutas so hard to deal with as protoss now. I just got killed by an opponent who massed muta. Tho tempest are okay to deal with mutas, its still so hard to take a 3rd base.
On December 13 2012 14:33 SuperYo1000 wrote: muta buff?....
Can we have tempest shoot archons then?
No but you can have +1 range phoenix with a +2 range upgrade
I was actually joking but ya....protoss crying should try a 7 range pheonix....having over double the range of mutas makes micro sooooo easy. 6 pheonix 1 shot mutas and at 7 range its really hard to die and since stargate is far more viable verse zerg you can handle a tech switch until you can respond correctly
On December 13 2012 08:50 Xanbatou wrote: why the fuck would they reduce widow mine attack priority?
Because mass widow mines atm are being used as meat shields in the late game.
This is a buff/nerf. Buff because late game widow mines can now "safely" reposition in combat with drilling claws. An enemy has to individually target them down. Nerf because late game, widow mines cannot be used to "tank" for marines by walking in front of them. They have close to double the HP of a marine.
lol why would you not use a Hellion in that situation, if you wanted to use anything? I don't see how this was ever a legitimate concern, having a more expensive, slower to build, higher supply unit tanking for Marines with Medivacs. Why would you not just use more Marines?
Because 12 hellions does not do 480 splash damage when burrowed or kill 12x 160hp units (excluding splash).
ATM 6 ultralisks and 50 lings can roflstomp thor/hellion of equal supply, not if its 6 thors + 12 drill mines. Patch #9 makes drill mine/marine/medivac mid-game deathball very dangerous, since enemy's attack will hit the marine FIRST giving time for the drill mines to burrow. See Avlio's use of drill mines, from 10m mark:
On December 13 2012 08:50 Xanbatou wrote: why the fuck would they reduce widow mine attack priority?
Because mass widow mines atm are being used as meat shields in the late game.
This is a buff/nerf. Buff because late game widow mines can now "safely" reposition in combat with drilling claws. An enemy has to individually target them down. Nerf because late game, widow mines cannot be used to "tank" for marines by walking in front of them. They have close to double the HP of a marine.
lol why would you not use a Hellion in that situation, if you wanted to use anything? I don't see how this was ever a legitimate concern, having a more expensive, slower to build, higher supply unit tanking for Marines with Medivacs. Why would you not just use more Marines?
Because 12 hellions does not do 480 splash damage when burrowed or kill 12x 160hp units (excluding splash).
ATM 6 ultralisks and 50 lings can roflstomp thor/hellion of equal supply, not if its 6 thors + 12 drill mines. Patch #9 makes drill mine/marine/medivac mid-game deathball very dangerous, since enemy's attack will hit the marine FIRST giving time for the drill mines to burrow. See Dragon's use of drill mines, from 10m onwards:
would love to see more muta play again, but comparing relative unit strengths it doesnt seem too strong on paper
wol muta is pretty bad in zvt atm and average in zvp
the buff to muta is nice, but the buff to phoenix and the widow mine look a little stronger, so dont know if the buff is enough to encourage more muta play in hots
also baffled that they dont buff the hydra already, with the quadruple nerf hammer on the infestor its about time other zerg units get bigger changes
There are pheonix which with the +2 range buff can deal with mutas no problem...are u sure you are kidding about using tempest vs mutas?
well you know Mutas pop out like 10 at a time while phxs dont. Also it the +2 range requires a Fleet Beacon. So getting to that tech path in 2 base then Zerg tech switching to roaches so easily.
Woa.. more forgiveness for muta's control, four times more, with almost nothing improved on the real muta problem, the hive tech. Zerg still need to basetrade against protoss even with 4hp regen mutas, mutas need an hive upgrade not a easier control (last patch) and more forgiveness (this patch) .. They're going in the wrong direction.
Not really that much of a fan of the tempest now making carriers in PvP and BCs in PvT even more obsolete than they already are. Its nice colossi gets a hard counter in PvP and also nice Ps get a solid weapon against zerg BLs though. So both good and bad.
I'd prefer to have upgrades either separated and cheaper, or shared completly and more expensive. This will just mess up so many things. What's the point having 0/3 Vikings when you can't kill things you need to kill with them? Like Tempest/Broodlords? I was playing TvP mech so far in HotS and when P mix in some air (tempest/void ray most likely) I could go toe to toe with them as long as I engaged properly. Bc's were not an option already, now it's ridiculous to even thing about them. I think TvP mech is now officialy TvZ 2/2 timing before broods from WoL.. The new Thor needs buff against air, or go back to shared upgrades, or fix Raven seeker missile, something or we are back in WoL.
On December 13 2012 08:50 Xanbatou wrote: why the fuck would they reduce widow mine attack priority?
Because mass widow mines atm are being used as meat shields in the late game.
This is a buff/nerf. Buff because late game widow mines can now "safely" reposition in combat with drilling claws. An enemy has to individually target them down. Nerf because late game, widow mines cannot be used to "tank" for marines by walking in front of them. They have close to double the HP of a marine.
lol why would you not use a Hellion in that situation, if you wanted to use anything? I don't see how this was ever a legitimate concern, having a more expensive, slower to build, higher supply unit tanking for Marines with Medivacs. Why would you not just use more Marines?
Because 12 hellions does not do 480 splash damage when burrowed or kill 12x 160hp units (excluding splash).
ATM 6 ultralisks and 50 lings can roflstomp thor/hellion of equal supply, not if its 6 thors + 12 drill mines. Patch #9 makes drill mine/marine/medivac mid-game deathball very dangerous, since enemy's attack will hit the marine FIRST giving time for the drill mines to burrow. See Dragon's use of drill mines, from 10m onwards:
Did you link the wrong game? Since that game has nothing about what you describe. He only has widow mine for mineral line defense, and did some drops with them, which were ridiculously effective since the toss lacked detection, but thats just like DT drops, if your enemy has no detection you are in a good spot.
At no point did he do anything like walking them in front of his army, or having a significant amount of them with his army, yes he had one in his final attack which was slightly ahead, but he also had 4 times the army.
On December 13 2012 17:35 Everlong wrote: I'd prefer to have upgrades either separated and cheaper, or shared completly and more expensive. This will just mess up so many things. What's the point having 0/3 Vikings when you can't kill things you need to kill with them? Like Tempest/Broodlords? I was playing TvP mech so far in HotS and when P mix in some air (tempest/void ray most likely) I could go toe to toe with them as long as I engaged properly. Bc's were not an option already, now it's ridiculous to even thing about them. I think TvP mech is now officialy TvZ 2/2 timing before broods from WoL.. The new Thor needs buff against air, or go back to shared upgrades, or fix Raven seeker missile, something or we are back in WoL.
Armor upgrades are combined because they are less useful than weapons. People research mech weapons or air weapon before armor because it's simply more useful, so they combined the two weaker upgrade to soften the mech/air transition. Having 3/3 vikings against the first group of corruptors/brood lords didn't sound right anyway.
80 Tempest damage versus Massive sounds too much, and I'm a Protoss player. You only need four tempest to one-shot a colossus or brood lord, probably down to three with 3/3 upgrades. At 15 range. With the possibility to use Revelation...
I like the muta regeneration. Makes sense, they are very expensive and regeneration will help them recover from widow mine strikes. Not sure if that will be imba or not, but it sure sounds better than yet another speed upgrade.
On December 13 2012 07:38 SarcasmMonster wrote: I love balance patches <3
Edit: Mutalisks should "leech", ie. gain life for every Glaive wurm + splash that hits an enemy unit/strucutre.
That way it rewards the player for being active and attacking/harassing by healing them. If you can splash 3 units, than that procs the leech 3 times. The passive regen is nice but I think it can be better
On December 13 2012 07:38 SarcasmMonster wrote: I love balance patches <3
Edit: Mutalisks should "leech", ie. gain life for every Glaive wurm + splash that hits an enemy unit/strucutre.
That way it rewards the player for being active and attacking/harassing by healing them. If you can splash 3 units, than that procs the leech 3 times. The passive regen is nice but I think it can be better
There are pheonix which with the +2 range buff can deal with mutas no problem...are u sure you are kidding about using tempest vs mutas?
well you know Mutas pop out like 10 at a time while phxs dont. Also it the +2 range requires a Fleet Beacon. So getting to that tech path in 2 base then Zerg tech switching to roaches so easily.
The phoenix got range buff in the last patch. Now they outrange mutas pretty badly even without the Fleet beacon upgrade. Add to that the superior speed of the phoenix and you dont actually need to build 10 phoenixes at a time... 3 phoenixes can easily beat 10 mutas no problem. Also voidrays now melt roaches like nothing and you have mothership core... It's not very likely to be overwhelmed with roaches in HotS.
T upgrades going weeeirdoo. Combined upgrades was OP but well. This doesnt make any sense. Thinking they should try keeping all 4 mech upgrades but tweaking their costs and times. potentially creating too powerful tank or thor timings though, i dunno
muta buff is fucking weird too. and i don't like weird.
won't the tempest be horribly, horribly op now? They're really easy to get and totally negates BC/colossus/BL play, right? doesn't seem ok
There are pheonix which with the +2 range buff can deal with mutas no problem...are u sure you are kidding about using tempest vs mutas?
well you know Mutas pop out like 10 at a time while phxs dont. Also it the +2 range requires a Fleet Beacon. So getting to that tech path in 2 base then Zerg tech switching to roaches so easily.
The phoenix got range buff in the last patch. Now they outrange mutas pretty badly even without the Fleet beacon upgrade. Add to that the superior speed of the phoenix and you dont actually need to build 10 phoenixes at a time... 3 phoenixes can easily beat 10 mutas no problem. Also voidrays now melt roaches like nothing and you have mothership core... It's not very likely to be overwhelmed with roaches in HotS.
Okay. I'll try to play more games to try this. Thanks for the input ^^
On December 13 2012 07:38 SarcasmMonster wrote: I love balance patches <3
Edit: Mutalisks should "leech", ie. gain life for every Glaive wurm + splash that hits an enemy unit/strucutre.
That way it rewards the player for being active and attacking/harassing by healing them. If you can splash 3 units, than that procs the leech 3 times. The passive regen is nice but I think it can be better
Did you drink from the toilet this morning?
The idea is actually okay, because it would justify the odd bouncing attack that Mutas have.
On December 13 2012 18:09 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Do you enjoy more PvP colo vs colo or PvP Tempest vs Tempest....
What the fuck is this? In wol we have colo vs colo, now we have tempest vs tempest, this is just going worse..
wouldn't Tempests be countered very hard by the other air units (minus Carrier)? I mean, if both open Stargate, you should go phoenix. Or Voids, but never Tempest. At least that's how it sounds to me
I think Blizz just went the wrong way with this "Protoss air must be viable no matter what".. It makes so many problems in all matchups. Remove the fucking Tempest already from the game, we have carriers, oracles, void rays, phoenixes, great.. No let's finally fix Protoss ground.
edit: see the most exiting matchup is TvZ where no Broodlord/Infestor is included.. Nobody wants to just sit and mass air units. :-(
I think the Oracle should have an upgrade in the Fleet Beacon that makes it regenerate energy faster....
I feel like i can harrass for like 5 seconds they move scvs out of the way, then i attack supply depots for 1 second and no more energy for like 5 minutes... Oracles are completely useless without energy, much like a lot of other units, yes, but i just feel like it doesnt have enough energy...
Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky; as long as mines shoot up no one is going to make them. The risk is just not worth it.
Not to mention that vipers dying to mines is also problematic. It makes engaging a late game terran army almost impossible.
All this patch does is damage ZvZ a bit, and adding another funky ability as a band aid over more fundamental problems.
Come on Blizzard we all know that mines won't be able to target air units by the time the game comes out. Stop wasting time.
On December 13 2012 18:20 MilesTeg wrote: Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky; as long as mines shoot up no one is going to make them. The risk is just not worth it.
Not to mention that vipers dying to mines is also problematic. It makes engaging a late game terran army almost impossible.
All this patch does is damage ZvZ a bit, and adding another funky ability as a band aid over more fundamental problems.
Come on Blizzard we all know that mines won't be able to target air units by the time the game comes out. Stop wasting time.
Terrible patch.
Then dont stack all of your mutas together and a move them. This has already been discussed. They are fucking mines. You don't walk your amy into mines. That's called being stupid. Just like terran stims a few marines and runs them forward you can run a muta forward to see if there's any mines.
On December 13 2012 18:20 MilesTeg wrote: Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky; as long as mines shoot up no one is going to make them. The risk is just not worth it.
Not to mention that vipers dying to mines is also problematic. It makes engaging a late game terran army almost impossible.
All this patch does is damage ZvZ a bit, and adding another funky ability as a band aid over more fundamental problems.
Come on Blizzard we all know that mines won't be able to target air units by the time the game comes out. Stop wasting time.
Terrible patch.
Then dont stack all of your mutas together and a move them. This has already been discussed. They are fucking mines. You don't walk your amy into mines. That's called being stupid. Just like terran stims a few marines and runs them forward you can run a muta forward to see if there's any mines.
and it has already been discussed that sending in 1 muta for 1 mine is bad because you lose 100 gas for 25 gas. muta doesnt need speed buff nor regeneration buff. it needs mines not hitting air and maybe acceleration buff so you can micro them better --> moving shot.
On December 13 2012 18:20 MilesTeg wrote: Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky; as long as mines shoot up no one is going to make them. The risk is just not worth it.
Not to mention that vipers dying to mines is also problematic. It makes engaging a late game terran army almost impossible.
All this patch does is damage ZvZ a bit, and adding another funky ability as a band aid over more fundamental problems.
Come on Blizzard we all know that mines won't be able to target air units by the time the game comes out. Stop wasting time.
Terrible patch.
Then dont stack all of your mutas together and a move them. This has already been discussed. They are fucking mines. You don't walk your amy into mines. That's called being stupid. Just like terran stims a few marines and runs them forward you can run a muta forward to see if there's any mines.
Except it destroys muta harass because you need to constantly split mutas as you move around and they reclump as they approach a point or attack things, unless you have an overseer with you which is drastically slower than a muta. Your mutas need to attack the same thing when they harass which means they're clumped, and they need to be able to dart from target to target which is now insanely risky (as it again clumps you and you cant do it well with an overseer checking ahead).
Awesome patch. Glad they are not caving to the Zergs who refuse to adapt and use Overseers. I don't know if the Muta regen passive will be the answer to making them more viable or not, but I do expect the solution to be a passive of some type.
I think the shrine and armory changes were expected. I'm surprised they are keeping the heal upgrade for the medivac but i guess further testing does not hurt.
All in all i'm really happy with the direction the patchs have taken this week. (The concepts, not the exact numbers/balance), but I hope they innovate a bit more with HSM.
did you know that they changed mines so that they become visible for a second before launching? you can micro mutas against mines, but you have to be on the goddamn ball to do so that said I would still like to see moving shot...
Decent changes, though I don't particularely like the muta buff. Too much healing makes uncareful use not punished. You can basically fly over a few stalkers now and by the time you harass again you're practically healed. Pretty big nerf for storm and fungal as air defense as well, you better kill a few muta instead of hurt them all now.
Anyway it's good to see they are promoting active units like muta's, they are definately more interesting to see than big ground balls.
Armory nerf again is excellent, mech + air being one thing was too much of a push towards air. Ship plating and mech plating being one seems interesting as it's about as useful for mech as it is for bio mixing in hellbats, medivacs, vikings and ravens probably. Especially the time to get 3/3 mech + air now is delayed quite a bit which is essential for balancing that composition, now you have to wait about 5 minutes longer before your ultimate tech kicks in
On December 13 2012 07:46 nomyx wrote: I just want Templar Archives combined with Dark Shrine.
That way an archive forces the opponent to go for detection since the protoss could warp-in DTs. Since DTs can be warped-in anywhere on the map within a psi-matrix, they should be scoutable.
On December 13 2012 18:40 Markwerf wrote: Pretty big nerf for storm and fungal as air defense as well, you better kill a few muta instead of hurt them all now.
And it was needed. It's not good that one spell comes to game and it's end of the mutas, and time to switch tech.
On December 13 2012 18:20 MilesTeg wrote: Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky; as long as mines shoot up no one is going to make them. The risk is just not worth it.
Honestly no one is going to make mutas as long as people claim they are useless due to widow mines, and I am enjoying it greatly as terran. At least half my games against zerg I realise suddenly I would be fucked if he goes mutas, and they pretty much never do, because well, they are useless when there are widow mines, right?
Generally these days I try to contain the zerg in his natural with mech army, with a bunch of widow mines as anti-air defense, and I generally try to quickly get a thor also, but that doesnt do too much if 10+ mutas come magic boxed. Send in the lings first to detonate the widow mines, kill remaining army with mutas. Sure I put down widow mines behind my army, just to try to prevent them all detonating on lings, but in the end often enough I would just be screwed against mutas.
And my mineral line? Especially with new boost for muta they won't lose any muta except to widow mines, since they will always go in at full HP. Now assuming the mineral line isn't one big minefield, yes you will lose 1-2 mutas (well unless you got an overseer with you, which isnt always a good idea, but often enough it can be done without issues), but thats it, after that there will be less turrets than normally would be, and you can just continue your killing.
Or you go kill some outlying buildings. Widow mines simply don't have the range to protect an entire base. I see then often complaints that a widow mine costing 75/25, kills a muta. However that isn't fair imo. To do that you had to place several widow mines, in the hope they would get in one widow mines range (and without detection). So at the very least you have that 4 widow mines, kill one muta.
When they make their entire base one big minefield, then yes mutas are useless. Same is true when they fill it with missile turrets, nothing new there. Granted widow mines can later be moved, but they aren't that amazing later in the game. So if you do that you are just really behind the zerg.
Don't get me wrong, they are definately useful against muta's, as backup for missile turrets, 1 or 2 in a mineral line, and if you got a really nice location you can also put one there. Now I also don't want to claim that widow mines aren't possibly in for a nerf against air. However what I do know is that the muta boosts have to be reverted if you don't give the other races better anti-muta options. Especially this regen boost is enormous if you wouldn't have widow mines to pick them off one muta at a time. They would effectively always come in with full HP. Also since vikings are suicidal for a terran against mass muta, you can keep overseers around the terran base. There is no need to take them with you, just use the nearest one to have detection.
On December 13 2012 18:40 Markwerf wrote: Decent changes, though I don't particularely like the muta buff. Too much healing makes uncareful use not punished. You can basically fly over a few stalkers now and by the time you harass again you're practically healed. Pretty big nerf for storm and fungal as air defense as well, you better kill a few muta instead of hurt them all now.
It does reward mutamicro though. You can try to save the damaged mutas to let them heal and continue to attack with the healthier ones. Also you gain real harass capability as zerg since it is now possible to tolerate some light damage. The opponent now needs mobile anti air (or really tough stationary air defense.)
With this regeneration, the muta harass moves away from a particular timing window, mutas can now be used in the later game, too. I think this is a very good change.
On December 13 2012 18:20 MilesTeg wrote: Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky; as long as mines shoot up no one is going to make them. The risk is just not worth it.
Not to mention that vipers dying to mines is also problematic. It makes engaging a late game terran army almost impossible.
All this patch does is damage ZvZ a bit, and adding another funky ability as a band aid over more fundamental problems.
Come on Blizzard we all know that mines won't be able to target air units by the time the game comes out. Stop wasting time.
Terrible patch.
Then dont stack all of your mutas together and a move them. This has already been discussed. They are fucking mines. You don't walk your amy into mines. That's called being stupid. Just like terran stims a few marines and runs them forward you can run a muta forward to see if there's any mines.
and it has already been discussed that sending in 1 muta for 1 mine is bad because you lose 100 gas for 25 gas. muta doesnt need speed buff nor regeneration buff. it needs mines not hitting air and maybe acceleration buff so you can micro them better --> moving shot.
The regeneration however is really great for micro and vs mines I guess. It makes pulling back mutas way better and you don't have to fly all over the map to get 1 mutalisk healed by a queen. And after you get hit by a mine, the rest of your mutas can regenerate again. Also I guess, against mines you can use overseers to tank the damage and find/kill the mines. (like 1speed overseer going in, activating two mines and then a pack of mutas+another overseer flying in, cleaning up the mines and harassing)
Not that I think that mines attacking air is needed, after they changed HSM and Thor, so Terran right now has 5(!!!!) burst damage antiair tools (Viking, Thor, HSM, Widow Mine, Yamato Canon) 4 of them being longrange. + Show Spoiler +
To be honest, I think that Terran right now is completly overranged. It's like anytime you see a high tech Terran unit, it already does damage to you. It forces any combat to be a 1a overrun, as withdrawing or microing in sightrange means a ton of free damage.
On December 13 2012 18:20 MilesTeg wrote: Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky; as long as mines shoot up no one is going to make them. The risk is just not worth it.
Not to mention that vipers dying to mines is also problematic. It makes engaging a late game terran army almost impossible.
All this patch does is damage ZvZ a bit, and adding another funky ability as a band aid over more fundamental problems.
Come on Blizzard we all know that mines won't be able to target air units by the time the game comes out. Stop wasting time.
Terrible patch.
Then dont stack all of your mutas together and a move them. This has already been discussed. They are fucking mines. You don't walk your amy into mines. That's called being stupid. Just like terran stims a few marines and runs them forward you can run a muta forward to see if there's any mines.
and it has already been discussed that sending in 1 muta for 1 mine is bad because you lose 100 gas for 25 gas. muta doesnt need speed buff nor regeneration buff. it needs mines not hitting air and maybe acceleration buff so you can micro them better --> moving shot.
Not that I think that mines attacking air is needed, after they changed HSM and Thor, so Terran right now has 5(!!!!) burst damage antiair tools (Viking, Thor, HSM, Widow Mine, Yamato Canon) 4 of them being longrange. [To be honest, I think that Terran right now is completly overranged. It's like anytime you see a high tech Terran unit, it already does damage to you. It forces any combat to be a 1a overrun, as withdrawing or microing in sightrange means a ton of free damage
Of those you mention only the widow mine is new and relevant against mutas. HSM was effectively nerfed against mutas, and HIP on thor is useless against mutas.
On December 13 2012 18:20 MilesTeg wrote: Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky; as long as mines shoot up no one is going to make them. The risk is just not worth it.
Not to mention that vipers dying to mines is also problematic. It makes engaging a late game terran army almost impossible.
All this patch does is damage ZvZ a bit, and adding another funky ability as a band aid over more fundamental problems.
Come on Blizzard we all know that mines won't be able to target air units by the time the game comes out. Stop wasting time.
Terrible patch.
Then dont stack all of your mutas together and a move them. This has already been discussed. They are fucking mines. You don't walk your amy into mines. That's called being stupid. Just like terran stims a few marines and runs them forward you can run a muta forward to see if there's any mines.
and it has already been discussed that sending in 1 muta for 1 mine is bad because you lose 100 gas for 25 gas. muta doesnt need speed buff nor regeneration buff. it needs mines not hitting air and maybe acceleration buff so you can micro them better --> moving shot.
The regeneration however is really great for micro and vs mines I guess. It makes pulling back mutas way better and you don't have to fly all over the map to get 1 mutalisk healed by a queen. And after you get hit by a mine, the rest of your mutas can regenerate again. Also I guess, against mines you can use overseers to tank the damage and find/kill the mines. (like 1speed overseer going in, activating two mines and then a pack of mutas+another overseer flying in, cleaning up the mines and harassing)
Not that I think that mines attacking air is needed, after they changed HSM and Thor, so Terran right now has 5(!!!!) burst damage antiair tools (Viking, Thor, HSM, Widow Mine, Yamato Canon) 4 of them being longrange. + Show Spoiler +
To be honest, I think that Terran right now is completly overranged. It's like anytime you see a high tech Terran unit, it already does damage to you. It forces any combat to be a 1a overrun, as withdrawing or microing in sightrange means a ton of free damage.
yeah you can micro like that vs mines but:
- even in your example (which is PERFECT play from the Z which is unrealistic in real life even on pro level) you trade 50 gas for 50 gas.
- and the worst of all: this only works on air space where you can park overseer. on ground space your mutas have to fly in overseerspeed which completely negates their strength to hop from one base to another because on a lot of maps you have to fly over ground to do that. so you now have overseerspeed mutas to harrass.
mutas need to be fast, with faster acceleration and a glass cannon. i have the feeling they go in the completely other direction right now. they make the muta slow (overseerspeedslow above ground) but less of a glass cannon. they balance SO many things around widow mine hitting air and cloak (they realized the last one) instead of just fixing the mine.
i said it since day 1: why does the mine need to hit air and cloak? that is 100% the role of turrets which are minerals only btw and mech has overmints anyway while marine compositions never had a problem vs mutas. so mines completely overlapped with the role of turrets...now they only overlap 50% which is still very bad and completely unneeded. they could reverse spore change, muta speedbuff, phoenix range change, MsC detection change and make mutas, DTs, banshees, dropplay from any race much more viable without the need to fix those units itself.
and of course with the mine not hitting air and cloaked it finally can be 1 or even 0,5 supply without being OP.
Yep. Mines can definetly be handled to a decent degree with an overseer. As mentioned earlier, even with no detection mines light up and reveal themself briefly before detonation. If you sweep in towards the base you can check for them without detection without taking a hit. Or if you have good reflexes you can even pull away after flying directly at them (if your a mad man). Pre burrow upgrade you can check the area with ao overseer and keep a close eye for reburrowing. You can even drop changelings to detonate them so you can pick them off with your muta (or just detonate them then harass and ignore the mine).
Yes a there is risk vs reward, but a Terran with defensive mines will more likely have nothing else in position, and have less static defense. So the potential for high skill ceiling damaging harass is there.
On December 13 2012 19:00 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: Nothing hurts my feelings more than seeing my 10-20 mutas die to 1-2 widow mines at random places :p
Maybe those 5 other widow mines hurt your feelings more? Since there is absolutely no way on earth that can happen. It is impossible, even if you have them maxed clumped up and fly directly into them it can't happen.
Also I am pretty sure also mutas can pick off detected widow mines before they fire. And as said before, you don't need to take an overseer with you all the time, just keep them hanging around bases and use them when your mutas arrive.
On December 13 2012 07:40 -NegativeZero- wrote: Tempest 80 dmg vs massive air?... I don't think anyone is ever going to make a colossus in a PvP again lol
Yay! My day is made, for I hate them so when they fry my zealots.
But isn't the colossus consider to be more ground than air? So what weapon will the tempest fire on them?
If it really rapes colossus this hard, it will be bad for the game. We'll now have tempest wars instead of colossus war. If tempest didn't hard counter colossus we could have a mix of both collossus and tempest.
On December 13 2012 18:20 MilesTeg wrote: Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky; as long as mines shoot up no one is going to make them. The risk is just not worth it.
Not to mention that vipers dying to mines is also problematic. It makes engaging a late game terran army almost impossible.
All this patch does is damage ZvZ a bit, and adding another funky ability as a band aid over more fundamental problems.
Come on Blizzard we all know that mines won't be able to target air units by the time the game comes out. Stop wasting time.
Terrible patch.
Then dont stack all of your mutas together and a move them. This has already been discussed. They are fucking mines. You don't walk your amy into mines. That's called being stupid. Just like terran stims a few marines and runs them forward you can run a muta forward to see if there's any mines.
Saying something completely idiotic and calling someone stupid at the same time... great post.
The trade-off is just ridiculously bad. Just the fact that you risk pretty much losing the game instantly means it is not exactly a good decision to harass. And even if you play perfectly you still usually lose more than you win.
If someone makes a muta in ZvT right now he's an idiot, or not being serious. Blizzard can add as many stupid stuff as they want, I don't know maybe make them shoot a pink lazer next time, it still won't change the fact that they're a really bad tech choice.
On December 13 2012 18:20 MilesTeg wrote: Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky; as long as mines shoot up no one is going to make them. The risk is just not worth it.
Not to mention that vipers dying to mines is also problematic. It makes engaging a late game terran army almost impossible.
All this patch does is damage ZvZ a bit, and adding another funky ability as a band aid over more fundamental problems.
Come on Blizzard we all know that mines won't be able to target air units by the time the game comes out. Stop wasting time.
Terrible patch.
Then dont stack all of your mutas together and a move them. This has already been discussed. They are fucking mines. You don't walk your amy into mines. That's called being stupid. Just like terran stims a few marines and runs them forward you can run a muta forward to see if there's any mines.
Saying something completely idiotic and calling someone stupid at the same time... great post.
The trade-off is just ridiculously bad. Just the fact that you risk pretty much losing the game instantly means it is not exactly a good decision to harass. And even if you play perfectly you still usually lose more than you win.
If someone makes a muta in ZvT right now he's an idiot, or not being serious. Blizzard can add as many stupid stuff as they want, I don't know maybe make them shoot a pink lazer next time, it still won't change the fact that they're a really bad tech choice.
And these people make sure I can gimp my air defense since zerg don't make mutas anyway :D
if they really want to keep mines hitting air then they should remove the single target damage. mines would still be a great addition beneath turrets but the zerg wouldnt always lose 100 gas for 25 gas and therefore never again playing mutas.
they should remove single target damage anyway because it is 100% luckbased which is stupid and i honestly dont know why no one seems to care that a luckbased thing is in the strategy game starcraft!?
On December 13 2012 19:11 Decendos wrote: if they really want to keep mines hitting air then they should remove the single target damage. mines would still be a great addition beneath turrets but the zerg wouldnt always lose 100 gas for 25 gas and therefore never again playing mutas.
I don't think removing single target damage is a bad idea. However, saying they lose 100 gas for 25 gas is just stupid. In order to have one widow mine fire you probably have had at least 4 burrowed in different spots, so that is 100 gas for 100 gas + more minerals.
On December 13 2012 18:20 MilesTeg wrote: Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky; as long as mines shoot up no one is going to make them. The risk is just not worth it.
Not to mention that vipers dying to mines is also problematic. It makes engaging a late game terran army almost impossible.
All this patch does is damage ZvZ a bit, and adding another funky ability as a band aid over more fundamental problems.
Come on Blizzard we all know that mines won't be able to target air units by the time the game comes out. Stop wasting time.
Terrible patch.
Then dont stack all of your mutas together and a move them. This has already been discussed. They are fucking mines. You don't walk your amy into mines. That's called being stupid. Just like terran stims a few marines and runs them forward you can run a muta forward to see if there's any mines.
and it has already been discussed that sending in 1 muta for 1 mine is bad because you lose 100 gas for 25 gas. muta doesnt need speed buff nor regeneration buff. it needs mines not hitting air and maybe acceleration buff so you can micro them better --> moving shot.
Not that I think that mines attacking air is needed, after they changed HSM and Thor, so Terran right now has 5(!!!!) burst damage antiair tools (Viking, Thor, HSM, Widow Mine, Yamato Canon) 4 of them being longrange. [To be honest, I think that Terran right now is completly overranged. It's like anytime you see a high tech Terran unit, it already does damage to you. It forces any combat to be a 1a overrun, as withdrawing or microing in sightrange means a ton of free damage
Of those you mention only the widow mine is new and relevant against mutas. HSM was effectively nerfed against mutas, and HIP on thor is useless against mutas.
Wasn't meant to talk about mutalisks with that, just generally whether Widow Mine shooting air is needed. Without the Thor change, I would very well say so - else opening Mech could be too hard against Stargate openings, as there is nothing that can buy you time to transition into Vikings and the overall damage output will just be extremly low. With a strong Thor, that can at least be a useful damage support vs Void Rays, Carriers and Tempests I would guess that Mech has a greater chance. (still needs Vikings, which is a good thing, but you don't need to go Tanks into mass vikings, like in WoL) But yeah, I dislike units that shoot nearly as far as their opponents can see. It makes positioning overly hard and the game being balanced around getting a "perfect overrun", instead of winning a well-controlled engagement. If they keep it like that, I think that Z needs something that guarantees vision of an army (like scan and revelation for T/P), else facing all of those range 9-15 lategame units of P/T might result too much in balancing for blind army clashes. Maybe some changeling/overseer tweaks.
On December 13 2012 19:11 Decendos wrote: if they really want to keep mines hitting air then they should remove the single target damage. mines would still be a great addition beneath turrets but the zerg wouldnt always lose 100 gas for 25 gas and therefore never again playing mutas.
I don't think removing single target damage is a bad idea. However, saying they lose 100 gas for 25 gas is just stupid. In order to have one widow mine fire you probably have had at least 4 burrowed in different spots, so that is 100 gas for 100 gas + more minerals.
thats a good and fair point. but ling bling mutaplay got nerfed so hard in ZvT with: mines hitting air, medivac speed buff, medivac healing buff, hellbat raping lings and being bio that even if you trade even with mines the other mentioned buffs in combination with mines hitting air made ling bling muta play a lot worse than in WoL (where it was in a perfect state although even there mass muta was figured out and it was more like 10-15 mutas on pro level).
ling bling muta is almost completely the same as in WoL but their counters got SO MUCH better that even without mines hitting air i am curious if mutas would be/will be played.
On December 13 2012 11:53 wcr.4fun wrote: I would buy hots if:
- removed thor - added goliath (possibly with really small splash to air, reason see below) - add air stacking (not as an ability obvious, but by using an overlord or larvae added to your group or via another method) - add moving shot to game - revert passive regeneration on mutalisk - remove swarm host, make the lurker somehow work (-remove collussus? Add other more interesting and skill requiring unit) - remove widow mine - add spider mine to reaper/hellion/... whatever fits best - change fungal to plague - change consume from absorbing builing heatlth to destroying a unit (bw version) - change blinding cloud to dark swarm (toned down perhaps, percentage based damage reduction? like 80 percent or something) - Make ultralisks smaller - change general pathing of units to allow better control (see bw) and destroy deathball - require less workers per base for saturation meaning less income per base and thus allowing more options (low econ games vs high econ games) - significantly tone down spawn larvae/mule and chronoboost - give cooldown advantage to gateways versus warp gates
I think this is everything. Obviously balance any issues which may arise through these changes
Well you forget one unit, the viper with blinding cloud which really helps your ling/bling when attacking. However I agree, hellbats alone pretty much screw over the pure bling/muta play, add thors against mutas and I don't think tanks are that important.
Btw do widow mines fire when under blinding cloud? On bases next to inaccessible terrain I could see it useful to cast blinding cloud on an expansion before mutas move in, at least takes care of turrets. (Of course you cant keep vipers with your mutas all the time).
Personally I still see a role for the muta, but i guess it wont be as important as in the traditional ling/bling/muta composition. However as anti-drop and light harrasment they still work. Just snipe a supply depot and go back, deny an expansion, etc. If sniping a supply depot makes you lose a muta to widow mines, he probably now has invested lots to cover his entire base in widow mines: win for you.
Honestly right now I consider roach, hydra, viper composition as terran to be really enjoyable both to play against, and to watch in streams. It really forces you to think about your positioning, and you dont have the stupid infestor stuff. Personally a bit afraid that the swarmhost isn't as enjoyable. Not balance wise, but simply because from my (limitted) experience when a zerg starts making swarm hosts, I add in more siege tanks to compensate, and the end result is zerg streaming free units into tank lines, without anything actually happening. They dont do damage since I got then enough siege tanks, but it just gets boring, generally the result is a race who can make siege units faster, him swarm hosts or me siege tanks.
I think I won it everytime for now, so it really isn't that I complain because I lose from them, I just dont consider it fun.
All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it.
Wait the thor size got reduced does that mean less SCV's then before can repair ? Ive been using muta's again and the thors die so quickly even when surrounded.
On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote: All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it.
Even without it mines can't hold mutaharass.
How many mines can terran leave on each base? 2-3? It's only 2-3 dead mutas if magic boxing. 2-3 mines is like 1 thor - soft counter yes, but skilled zerg can easily overcome such defence with muta. And now with regen it will be easy even without skill.
On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote: All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it.
Have you ever even used mutas? When you're done harassing with mutas, you click them to a safe point and turn your attention to macro as they travel while keeping an eye on the minimap. Mutas ball heavily as they travel and they move much faster than an overseer. Simply moving your mutas around the map is a big risk, and that's not even factoring in the other things I mentioned in my previous post that people like you apparently ignore.
Good changes overall but I don't get why they didn't give the double upgrade thing any time to play out at all. If you think about it there are no real late-game fixes in HOTS for Terran (energyless thors are a small help and the new seeker is ok but not enough). The free air upgrades was a great way to finally give Terran a truly strong late game by allowing us to get BC/X fleets much faster than in WoL.
On December 13 2012 20:11 Scila wrote: Good changes overall but I don't get why they didn't give the double upgrade thing any time to play out at all. If you think about it there are no real late-game fixes in HOTS for Terran (energyless thors are a small help and the new seeker is ok but not enough). The free air upgrades was a great way to finally give Terran a truly strong late game by allowing us to get BC/X fleets much faster than in WoL.
Well at least for tvz infestors are terrible now and thors a bit better vs bls, so that's a lategame buff. Having 2-2 to 3-3 vikings when 0/0 bls hit the field was ridiculous.
This patch came much too soon after the last one. They should have given the game more time to develop around the changes. The oracle change seems strange, it is a buff in overall dmg, but makes the unit less flexible to use, thus reducing the benefit of spending apm on its usage. I think a better choice would be to just increase the drained energy/s to 5, because this unit shouldn't be doing large amounts of total dmg, it should be used for short surgical strikes and it should be versatile in this role, when babysitted alot. Also: Tempests do not need a buff, although this buff shouldn't do much. They should be further nerfed vs ground units (maybe by reducing their range vs ground). Lategame protoss air with templar support is already hilariously unbeatably strong.
On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote: All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it.
Have you ever even used mutas? When you're done harassing with mutas, you click them to a safe point and turn your attention to macro as they travel while keeping an eye on the minimap. Mutas ball heavily as they travel and they move much faster than an overseer. Simply moving your mutas around the map is a big risk, and that's not even factoring in the other things I mentioned in my previous post that people like you apparently ignore.
We ignore it because good terrans won't randomly spam mines around the map. If it's a big deal, simply facecheck with a speedling first, then bring an overseer and go kill it.
On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote: All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it.
Have you ever even used mutas? When you're done harassing with mutas, you click them to a safe point and turn your attention to macro as they travel while keeping an eye on the minimap. Mutas ball heavily as they travel and they move much faster than an overseer. Simply moving your mutas around the map is a big risk, and that's not even factoring in the other things I mentioned in my previous post that people like you apparently ignore.
We ignore it because good terrans won't randomly spam mines around the map. If it's a big deal, simply facecheck with a speedling first, then bring an overseer and go kill it.
I've been putting them in common fly routes and they're almost always worth it to have. You don't even need to kill anything or make all that many as just the threat of them dampens harass and you can always move them to shut down backstabs or give yourself a bit more map control.
Edit: Plus, mutas can no longer fly in one side of your base and harass through to the other side to safety.
The part I was talking about ignoring had nothing to do with random mines around the map.
oh... joy.... TvT so fun right now... you have to open reaper... and when both open reapers. you need more reapers.. and it will turn into a 5rax vs 5rax all tech lab reaper battle
On December 13 2012 20:43 EpicShroom wrote: oh... joy.... TvT so fun right now... you have to open reaper... and when both open reapers. you need more reapers.. and it will turn into a 5rax vs 5rax all tech lab reaper battle
On December 13 2012 20:43 EpicShroom wrote: oh... joy.... TvT so fun right now... you have to open reaper... and when both open reapers. you need more reapers.. and it will turn into a 5rax vs 5rax all tech lab reaper battle
ffs
Open Marauder? Or transition into marauder? Last time I checked, marauders owned reapers pretty hard and with concussive shells in the picture...
I know a lot of people are complaining about this these days, but shouldn't a 1rax+techlab marauder + indoor CC be possible?
Corruptors now must be able to slow down enemy air units. Every unit that they supposed to counter, now got a buff with range, speed, regeneration, etc. Corruptors suck now even more -_-
On December 13 2012 20:11 Scila wrote: If you think about it there are no real late-game fixes in HOTS for Terran
Cadecus Reactor and Emergency Boosters are pretty good in late game. Cadecus Reactor for increased viability of Bio into lategame, and Emergency Boosters to make lategame doom drops even scarier (think TvZ vs Broodlord compositions). Even against non-Broodlord compositions, one drop can change an entire game. Emergency Boosters help with that.
Awww yeeeaah muta health regen is so good. Blizzard is doing a good job trying to steer people away from infestor-centric play. It's just ZvZ I'm a little concerned about since it looks like you have to go muta all the way.
On December 13 2012 20:43 EpicShroom wrote: oh... joy.... TvT so fun right now... you have to open reaper... and when both open reapers. you need more reapers.. and it will turn into a 5rax vs 5rax all tech lab reaper battle
ffs
in TvT people are figuring out how to counter reaper. Nice solutions have been posted in a thread on liquipedia and other forums. But basically very fast helions or tanks can pretty much counter reaper harass.
and there is nothing about reaper in this patchnote....
On December 13 2012 20:43 EpicShroom wrote: oh... joy.... TvT so fun right now... you have to open reaper... and when both open reapers. you need more reapers.. and it will turn into a 5rax vs 5rax all tech lab reaper battle
ffs
in TvT people are figuring out how to counter reaper. Nice solutions have been posted in a thread on liquipedia and other forums. But basically very fast helions or tanks can pretty much counter reaper harass.
and there is nothing about reaper in this patchnote....
Countering reapers is fairly easy, that isnt the problem. The issue is countering them while maintaining an advantage compared to the player who went reapers. Sure you can make marauders for example, but then the reaper guy still has complete map control and his CC just as fast.
On December 13 2012 16:33 WeaponX.7 wrote: Id like point out that muta openings are going to be insanely effective against mech now because of how awful thors are against them already and now they will just heal the splash dmg much more quickly.
Maybe in hots you can go mech with mines to defend, they're aoe right?
I love the muta change since they make TvZ so much more exciting and they really are a core unit in the game.
have mines sitting in my base and expos taking up 10, 20 supply doing nothing :\
Having 10-20 supply defending your bases lategame isn't that big of an anomaly, last time i checked.. And i'm pretty sure widow mines are more cost effective than most things defending bases.
Yeah I meant the zerg mutalisk threat window from early to midgame when terran is meching, before thors. It would be no problem to deflect mutas lategame since going mech gives you tons of minerals to use on static defense.
It's painfully obvious now that David Kim is out of his depth as far as balancing this game goes. Look at his changes. Rewarding Terran for spamming marines and making bio even more of a no-brainer than it was in WoL. Buffing mutas, which are already some of the most badly designed units in the game because of how hard it is for Protoss to counter them versus how much damage they can do -- and they're probably going to be overpowered anyway on the huge maps of HotS (and even Idra said so). Giving Protoss a harass unit for which the hard counter is a spore crawler or two on the mineral line -- the exact same hard counter to DTs and phoenix harassment.
Seriously...how fucking STUPID is it to give Protoss a harass unit that is hard-counterd in exactly the same way as DTs and stargate play in general?
The main complaint against Zerg in WoL is that it's a low skill race that just has to A-move its units. So what do we get in HoTS? More of the same -- except now they get the easiest caster in the game, whose "micro" is no more demanding than clicking on the big units, and the easiest artillery unit in the game that has the mechanics of a burrowed brood lord with further range and higher DPS.
Just compare for a second the difficulty of the PvZ counter for mutas with the ZvP counter to oracle harass. That is the game that David Kim is giving us.
On December 13 2012 21:39 Rossie wrote: It's painfully obvious now that David Kim is out of his depth as far as balancing this game goes. Look at his changes. Rewarding Terran for spamming marines and making bio even more of a no-brainer than it was in WoL. Buffing mutas, which are already some of the most badly designed units in the game because of how hard it is for Protoss to counter them versus how much damage they can do -- and they're probably going to be overpowered anyway on the huge maps of HotS (and even Idra said so). Giving Protoss a harass unit for which the hard counter is a spore crawler or two on the mineral line -- the exact same hard counter to phoenix harassment and DTs.
The main complaint against Zerg in WoL is that it's a low skill race that just has to A-move its units. So what do we get in HoTS? More of the same -- except now they get the easiest caster in the game, whose "micro" is no more demanding than clicking on the big units, and the easiest artillery unit in the game that has the mechanics of a burrowed brood lord with further range and higher DPS.
Just compare for a second the difficulty of the PvZ counter for mutas with the ZvP counter to oracle harass. That is the game that David Kim is giving us.
so you complain as a toss player which might be the strongest race right now. and you complain about mutas although in patch 8 they got worse vs toss because 7% speedbuff was much worse than 25% rangebuff. oh and you say zerg is easy to play and dont want mutas in the game which are probably the most microrewarding unit zerg has...wow.
On December 13 2012 21:39 Rossie wrote: It's painfully obvious now that David Kim is out of his depth as far as balancing this game goes. Look at his changes. Rewarding Terran for spamming marines and making bio even more of a no-brainer than it was in WoL. Buffing mutas, which are already some of the most badly designed units in the game because of how hard it is for Protoss to counter them versus how much damage they can do -- and they're probably going to be overpowered anyway on the huge maps of HotS (and even Idra said so). Giving Protoss a harass unit for which the hard counter is a spore crawler or two on the mineral line -- the exact same hard counter to phoenix harassment and DTs.
The main complaint against Zerg in WoL is that it's a low skill race that just has to A-move its units. So what do we get in HoTS? More of the same -- except now they get the easiest caster in the game, whose "micro" is no more demanding than clicking on the big units, and the easiest artillery unit in the game that has the mechanics of a burrowed brood lord with further range and higher DPS.
Just compare for a second the difficulty of the PvZ counter for mutas with the ZvP counter to oracle harass. That is the game that David Kim is giving us.
It's obvious you are a protoss player just whining about your loses and that you have absolutely no idea of what is good or not for balancing this game...
The balance changes are in the right direction, they have to do some tweaks but clearly zerg is going to have somes buffs like protoss and terran got because they need them in T2.
For your information, Protoss is actually quite fine and very fun to play (you can ask progamers like white-ra or babyknight) and NO : other races are not only played by noobs who A+click and are spamming units...
Nothing is worth against defensive widow mines, is simply bad design and there's no way in the hell they can release the widow mine hitting air in a esport, it's truly damn random and i hope progamers shortly will feedaback in this direction.
Ok split mutas, and what about oneshotting an oracle? what about a prism with 2 immortals\ht\dt\lossi even with speed? what about a voidray? what about medivacks? split a single unit? what about all air units with decent speed (harasser) what you need to do? give the follow command on a observer or an overseer or use a scan everytime you want to land a medivack? Oh cmon.. Terran players please stop defending this shit and be more fair, it's totally random and scares harassment a lot... burrowed turrets...lol
On December 13 2012 21:43 Decendos wrote: so you complain as a toss player which might be the strongest race right now. and you complain about mutas although in patch 8 they got worse vs toss because 7% speedbuff was much worse than 25% rangebuff. oh and you say zerg is easy to play and dont want mutas in the game which are probably the most microrewarding unit zerg has...wow.
Seriously, this unsupported bullshit about how Toss "might be the strongest race right now" will be the death of this game if it continues unchecked.
It's painfully obvious that top level Terran and Toss players are simply so much better than ANY Zerg player. Their micro, their multitasking, their delicate timings, the refinement and creativity of the metagame versus the stagnant Zerg metagame (where figuring out that zergling run-bys are a good idea is hailed as the epitome of creativity). Compare that with Zerg A-moving their ling-roaches and beating 400 APM, 7 base Protoss off 3 base infestor-brood.
And you seriously don't have a clue what micro is if you think mutas are at all "micro-rewarding". They're fundamentally "spam and A-move" units. The only "micro" is making sure they don't get killed, which applies to every unit -- even roaches and lings.
I really don't like the change to Tempests. Considering how little use Carriers and Battlecruisers already see against Protoss, introducing an even harder counter seems like the wrong move.
On December 13 2012 21:43 Decendos wrote: so you complain as a toss player which might be the strongest race right now. and you complain about mutas although in patch 8 they got worse vs toss because 7% speedbuff was much worse than 25% rangebuff. oh and you say zerg is easy to play and dont want mutas in the game which are probably the most microrewarding unit zerg has...wow.
Seriously, this unsupported bullshit about how Toss "might be the strongest race right now" will be the death of this game if it continues unchecked.
It's painfully obvious that top level Terran and Toss players are simply so much better than ANY Zerg player. Their micro, their multitasking, their delicate timings, the refinement and creativity of the metagame versus the stagnant Zerg metagame (where figuring out that zergling run-bys are a good idea is hailed as the epitome of creativity). Compare that with Zerg A-moving their ling-roaches and beating 400 APM, 7 base Protoss off 3 base infestor-brood.
And you seriously don't have a clue what micro is if you think mutas are at all "micro-rewarding". They're fundamentally "spam and A-move" units. The only "micro" is making sure they don't get killed, which applies to every unit -- even roaches and lings.
I don't really think Tempests need a huge buff to massive. They're pretty dominant as is and basically kill late game battlecruisers completely which is a bit rubbish given how long BCs take to come out and how vulnerable they are to templar.
They're also far too strong hitpoint wise. 450HP to a BC's 550HP with 2 armour for 4 supply is over the top.
On December 13 2012 21:43 Decendos wrote: so you complain as a toss player which might be the strongest race right now. and you complain about mutas although in patch 8 they got worse vs toss because 7% speedbuff was much worse than 25% rangebuff. oh and you say zerg is easy to play and dont want mutas in the game which are probably the most microrewarding unit zerg has...wow.
Seriously, this unsupported bullshit about how Toss "might be the strongest race right now" will be the death of this game if it continues unchecked.
It's painfully obvious that top level Terran and Toss players are simply so much better than ANY Zerg player. Their micro, their multitasking, their delicate timings, the refinement and creativity of the metagame versus the stagnant Zerg metagame (where figuring out that zergling run-bys are a good idea is hailed as the epitome of creativity). Compare that with Zerg A-moving their ling-roaches and beating 400 APM, 7 base Protoss off 3 base infestor-brood.
And you seriously don't have a clue what micro is if you think mutas are at all "micro-rewarding". They're fundamentally "spam and A-move" units. The only "micro" is making sure they don't get killed, which applies to every unit -- even roaches and lings.
The way Protoss players feel right now is the same as Terran players have felt all the time... End the game before late game or see yourself die to an a-moved Deathball. Indeed Zerg was OP, but Protoss is badly designed and i don't think that it is going to change... I think Qxc mentioned this already, but strong units whose only weakness is that they are slow is going to encourage deathball play, that is just the way it is. Tempest is slow and furthermore it deal single target damage. There is no way that it is ever going to be used for something else than deathballs.
On December 13 2012 21:54 Wertheron wrote: Haha, you never played Zerg, but yes, i understand that you miss the time where P just did a death ball, click A and raped the Z ^^.
Actually, it made me stop playing for a long while. But at least even during that period the Protoss players couldn't A-move their units and lived or died by their force fields. Which are a good deal harder than fungals. And I'm afraid ultimately the fault was with Zerg players. The few Zerg players like NesTea that showed some creativity won trophies.The ultimate solution wasn't insane, Rain-like playing skill, but merely figuring out that you had infestors.
On December 13 2012 22:14 Prog455 wrote: The way Protoss players feel right now is the same as Terran players have felt all the time... End the game before late game or see yourself die to an a-moved Deathball.
For like two years, most Terran players didn't realize they had ghosts. They seemed to think they had a right to win matches doing nothing but spam marines.
Not really surprising, if you think about it, that a race designed to cater to the "Modern Warfare demographic" isn't likely to produce the best minds for strategy on the planet...
I say once again that the "coalition of morons against Protoss" will be the death of this game if they're allowed to continue unchecked.
On December 13 2012 22:14 Prog455 wrote: The way Protoss players feel right now is the same as Terran players have felt all the time... End the game before late game or see yourself die to an a-moved Deathball.
For like two years, most Terran players didn't realize they had ghosts. They seemed to think they had a right to win matches doing nothing but spam marines.
Not really surprising, if you think about it, that a race designed to cater to the "Modern Warfare demographic" isn't likely to produce the best minds for strategy on the planet...
I say once again that the "coalition of morons against Protoss" will be the death of this game if they're allowed to continue unchecked.
Uh.
Terrans used ghosts so much they got them nerfed. What are you on?
On December 13 2012 22:14 Prog455 wrote: The way Protoss players feel right now is the same as Terran players have felt all the time... End the game before late game or see yourself die to an a-moved Deathball.
For like two years, most Terran players didn't realize they had ghosts. They seemed to think they had a right to win matches doing nothing but spam marines.
Not really surprising, if you think about it, that a race designed to cater to the "Modern Warfare demographic" isn't likely to produce the best minds for strategy on the planet...
I say once again that the "coalition of morons against Protoss" will be the death of this game if they're allowed to continue unchecked.
No what could kill the game is "the coalition of morons against Zergs", and you are maybe the commander of the morons XD
On December 13 2012 21:43 Decendos wrote: so you complain as a toss player which might be the strongest race right now. and you complain about mutas although in patch 8 they got worse vs toss because 7% speedbuff was much worse than 25% rangebuff. oh and you say zerg is easy to play and dont want mutas in the game which are probably the most microrewarding unit zerg has...wow.
Seriously, this unsupported bullshit about how Toss "might be the strongest race right now" will be the death of this game if it continues unchecked.
It's painfully obvious that top level Terran and Toss players are simply so much better than ANY Zerg player. Their micro, their multitasking, their delicate timings, the refinement and creativity of the metagame versus the stagnant Zerg metagame (where figuring out that zergling run-bys are a good idea is hailed as the epitome of creativity). Compare that with Zerg A-moving their ling-roaches and beating 400 APM, 7 base Protoss off 3 base infestor-brood.
And you seriously don't have a clue what micro is if you think mutas are at all "micro-rewarding". They're fundamentally "spam and A-move" units. The only "micro" is making sure they don't get killed, which applies to every unit -- even roaches and lings.
Haha there we go again with the completely baseless assumption that all terran and toss players are more skilled than zerg players. Do you seriously believe that? What would a player like life or leenock have to do to actually be considered skilled in your eyes? I think people just see multipronged drops and instantly assume the terrans are much better than anyone else. The thing is, zergs don't have a move like that (well, not one that makes sense) or they would already be doing it.
On December 13 2012 21:43 Decendos wrote: so you complain as a toss player which might be the strongest race right now. and you complain about mutas although in patch 8 they got worse vs toss because 7% speedbuff was much worse than 25% rangebuff. oh and you say zerg is easy to play and dont want mutas in the game which are probably the most microrewarding unit zerg has...wow.
Seriously, this unsupported bullshit about how Toss "might be the strongest race right now" will be the death of this game if it continues unchecked.
It's painfully obvious that top level Terran and Toss players are simply so much better than ANY Zerg player. Their micro, their multitasking, their delicate timings, the refinement and creativity of the metagame versus the stagnant Zerg metagame (where figuring out that zergling run-bys are a good idea is hailed as the epitome of creativity). Compare that with Zerg A-moving their ling-roaches and beating 400 APM, 7 base Protoss off 3 base infestor-brood.
And you seriously don't have a clue what micro is if you think mutas are at all "micro-rewarding". They're fundamentally "spam and A-move" units. The only "micro" is making sure they don't get killed, which applies to every unit -- even roaches and lings.
On December 13 2012 22:35 Ameisenmann wrote: Haha there we go again with the completely baseless assumption that all terran and toss players are more skilled than zerg players. Do you seriously believe that?
No. "Baseless" is not giving your reasons. I already gave mine. Stephano is nearly as good as Life and Leenock, and he simply doesn't practice. Zerg is a low skill race, and that is exactly why the game is becoming boring.
I think that changing the distance between units, making deathballs less powerfull, would be a good start to balancing this game. More space between the UNITS. Please. Thank you Blizzard.
On December 13 2012 20:11 Scila wrote: If you think about it there are no real late-game fixes in HOTS for Terran
Cadecus Reactor and Emergency Boosters are pretty good in late game. Cadecus Reactor for increased viability of Bio into lategame, and Emergency Boosters to make lategame doom drops even scarier (think TvZ vs Broodlord compositions). Even against non-Broodlord compositions, one drop can change an entire game. Emergency Boosters help with that.
They're good in late game, but they're of better use in early/mid game.
In the late game you'll face a lot of AoE damage, the extra healing is not going to help at all when facing 4-5 Colossus or a bunch of storms.The damage output is simply too high and too many units are hit by the AoE spells/attacks for the medivacs to keep up. I did some tests ingame and it does help somewhat against fungals (not a lot, but still an improvement).
In the early/mid game you're unlikely to face much AoE damage. In these situations, the DPS output is focused on less units meaning the medivacs will be of greater help. I've only tested it against Protoss so far, but the upgraded medivac will out heal the damage output of Zealots and Immortals on Marines (In WoL the marine dies). That's huge, especially considering that in the typical TvP early/mid game it's MMM vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/Immortal.
I'd say the medivac buff is good for late game, but it's much, much better for the Terran early/mid game. And that's not exactly the phase of the game where Terran is struggling. I play Terran, so of course i'm pretty happy with this upgrade, but I feel this medivac upgrade will be the biggest change HotS will bring for Terran players, instead of the new unit(s) adding something to the game. That's kind of sad, and very disappointing.
On December 13 2012 22:44 Uni1987 wrote: It's so painfully obvious that you are biased.
I'm not biased. I'm simply correct that (1) Zerg is a low skill race in WoL at the moment, (2) more low skill Zerg units have been added to HotS, (3) Protoss, on the other hand, has an absurdly fragile mothership core and ridiculously easy-to-counter oracle harass, and (4) stopping mutas as Protoss is much , much harder and more uncertain than throwing down a spore crawler.
On December 13 2012 23:12 Insoleet wrote: Dont feed the troll guys...
Seriously, fuck off. It is SIMPLY TRUE that WoL is a greatly less enjoyable game thanks to the rule-following and low-skill nature of the Zerg race. It is SIMPLY TRUE that Protoss has been given a fragile-as-fuck mothership core and shitty, easy-to-counter harass unit, compared with the most insanely powerful units and buffs that have been provided to Zerg.
By trying to dismiss as a troll everyone who speaks the truth about Zerg, you are going to kill this game.
On December 13 2012 20:11 Scila wrote: If you think about it there are no real late-game fixes in HOTS for Terran
Cadecus Reactor and Emergency Boosters are pretty good in late game. Cadecus Reactor for increased viability of Bio into lategame, and Emergency Boosters to make lategame doom drops even scarier (think TvZ vs Broodlord compositions). Even against non-Broodlord compositions, one drop can change an entire game. Emergency Boosters help with that.
They're good in late game, but they're of better use in early/mid game.
In the late game you'll face a lot of AoE damage, the extra healing is not going to help at all when facing 4-5 Colossus or a bunch of storms.The damage output is simply too high and too many units are hit by the AoE spells/attacks for the medivacs to keep up. I did some tests ingame and it does help somewhat against fungals (not a lot, but still an improvement).
In the early/mid game you're unlikely to face much AoE damage. In these situations, the DPS output is focused on less units meaning the medivacs will be of greater help. I've only tested it against Protoss so far, but the upgraded medivac will out heal the damage output of Zealots and Immortals on Marines (In WoL the marine dies). That's huge, especially considering that in the typical TvP early/mid game it's MMM vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/Immortal.
I'd say the medivac buff is good for late game, but it's much, much better for the Terran early/mid game. And that's not exactly the phase of the game where Terran is struggling. I play Terran, so of course i'm pretty happy with this upgrade, but I feel this medivac upgrade will be the biggest change HotS will bring for Terran players, instead of the new unit(s) adding something to the game. That's kind of sad, and very disappointing.
In most of my games, since I don't play Mech at all, the medivac buff is almost the only thing different from WoL. The mine isn't very fun to use and the hellbat is .. well.. not a new unit really :<
I don't really like how 1rax expand gasless is not doable in TvT anymore You just die to reapers instantly, you need to open with gas now.
On December 13 2012 23:12 Insoleet wrote: Dont feed the troll guys...
Seriously, fuck off. It is SIMPLY TRUE that WoL is a greatly less enjoyable game thanks to the rule-following and low-skill nature of the Zerg race. It is SIMPLY TRUE that Protoss has been given a fragile-as-fuck mothership core and shitty, easy-to-counter harass unit, compared with the most insanely powerful units and buffs that have been provided to Zerg.
By trying to dismiss as a troll everyone who speaks the truth about Zerg, you are going to kill this game.
Nope, it's not true and writing it in all caps won't make it any truer. The oracle is not a "shitty" unit, good protoss players are showing how good the mothership core is early game, go deep, do damage and recall. The swarm host is not "an insanely powerful unit", the viper is necessary because the infestor got hit hard by the nerf hammer.
You claim you don't even play the game, and also that "400 apm protosses are losing to low skill zergs" when in fact protoss is the race needing the less APM (that's not flaming it's how it is, different races call for different mechanics). Seriously open a replay and watch.
You have absolutely no clue on what you crying about, coupled with the fact that you don't even play you are just making yourself even more ridiculous with each reply. Do yourself a favor and stop.
@neonfox impliying skill = apm. i play all races @ silver (so am noob) but i notice that some races a easier in my opinion its: zerg > protos > terran where terran is the hardest race.
On December 13 2012 23:46 alwinuz wrote: @neonfox impliying skill = apm. i play all races @ silver (so am noob) but i notice that some races a easier in my opinion its: zerg > protos > terran where terran is the hardest race.
That's exactly my point, different ways to play races means lower apm for protosses means nothing about the skill level. And we are talking about Hots here, not Wol where indeed infestor broodlord is OP.
On December 13 2012 08:28 wajd wrote: Is this fixing the problem of not being able to play at all for mac users??
Unfortunately no. I am extremely disappointed that I saved up enough money to pre-order for myself to receive the beta during this holiday season only to be told that the game doesn't one on one of the platforms Blizzard "supports".
Nope, it's not true and writing it in all caps won't make it any truer. The oracle is not a "shitty" unit, good protoss players are showing how good the mothership core is early game, go deep, do damage and recall. The swarm host is not "an insanely powerful unit", the viper is necessary because the infestor got hit hard by the nerf hammer.
The idea of proportion is totally lost on you, isn't it?
Protoss players have to pull out all the stops to get some use out of the absurdly fragile mothership core, whereas the Zerg units have IMMEDIATE utility and OBVIOUS incorporation into strategies, and they get no more micro-intensive than clicking on the big units to abduct them.
And as for swarm hosts not being absurdly powerful...WhiteRa has said that they're sufficiently scary to force him to begin with stargate (which incidentally is hard-countered by hydras).
On December 13 2012 23:39 NeonFox wrote:You claim you don't even play the game, and also that "400 apm protosses are losing to low skill zergs" when in fact protoss is the race needing the less APM (that's not flaming it's how it is, different races call for different mechanics). Seriously open a replay and watch.
No, I didn't say I don't play the game. So you can't even read. That is the intellectual level you're at. And my point was nothing to do with APM, but more generally about how hard it is for Protoss players to deal with an A-move deathball. And you might not have noticed, but Protoss APM is filled with situation-dependent multitasking and doesn't consist largely of following a queen-inject, creep-spread procedure like some algorithm from a comp-sci 101 assignment.
On December 13 2012 21:59 K9GM3 wrote: I really don't like the change to Tempests. Considering how little use Carriers and Battlecruisers already see against Protoss, introducing an even harder counter seems like the wrong move.
Agree with this. They are becoming to massive air what Immortals are to Tanks and Ultras, HARD counter. Don't like those.
On December 14 2012 00:18 Sapphire.lux wrote: Agree with this. They are becoming to massive air what Immortals are to Tanks and Ultras, HARD counter. Don't like those.
Everything else looks cool.
You mean like spore crawlers are the hard counter to oracles? Or hydras are the hard counter to stargate?
On December 14 2012 00:18 Sapphire.lux wrote: Agree with this. They are becoming to massive air what Immortals are to Tanks and Ultras, HARD counter. Don't like those.
Everything else looks cool.
You mean like spore crawlers are the hard counter to oracles? Or hydras are the hard counter to stargate?
The anti-Protoss autism is just unbelievable.
WTF! Are you trolling?
EDIT: now that i've read the last few pages i see you are on a qq crusade and have some "the world hates Protoss" paranoia, carry on.
On December 13 2012 22:35 Ameisenmann wrote: Haha there we go again with the completely baseless assumption that all terran and toss players are more skilled than zerg players. Do you seriously believe that?
No. "Baseless" is not giving your reasons. I already gave mine. Stephano is nearly as good as Life and Leenock, and he simply doesn't practice. Zerg is a low skill race, and that is exactly why the game is becoming boring.
All 20 of your posts on TL have been whining about Zerg being skill-less "a-move" and Protoss being so hard to play. It's just sad, really. And saying that a single spore crawler in the mineral line counters all Protoss harass is just silly. Phoenixes are not countered by single spores in the mineral line (they still have free reign over overlords, can snipe drones while only losing shields, etc.). Moreover, 3 oracles can kill a spore crawler really easily, and then kill every drone in an entire mineral line just as fast as a flock of mutas, so if Protoss is dedicated to their harass then they can still do major damage.
On topic, I really like the changes. Completely combined mech/air upgrades was just weird, and gave Terrans fewer upgrades to research than the other races, and it just seemed unfair to have the mech --> air transition not require any additional upgrades, and 2/2 or 3/3 vikings popping out right when brood lords show up, combined with the nerfed infestors, made late-game TvZ seem a little too easy for Terran, imo.
On December 14 2012 00:18 Sapphire.lux wrote: Agree with this. They are becoming to massive air what Immortals are to Tanks and Ultras, HARD counter. Don't like those.
Everything else looks cool.
You mean like spore crawlers are the hard counter to oracles? Or hydras are the hard counter to stargate?
The anti-Protoss autism is just unbelievable.
And this is why the pros don't even bother coming to threads like this one.
On December 13 2012 11:57 althaz wrote: I feel like Blizzard is really losing it. This is like fifth or six patch in a row without a single change to the bunker build time. Frankly I'm disgusted and I'm not sure I can continue to watch and play this game anymore.
On a more serious note, I actually dislike the Dark Shrine change, however I think that either dark shrine shoould require a Templar archives (and be correspondingly cheaper and faster to build) or the building should be scrapped and we should go back to Broodwar with the Archives giving both Templar.
The reason for this is it allows the Toss player to get something defensive (storm/feedback/archons) and something to put pressure on their opponents at the same time (DTs) without causing catestrophic damage to their own economy/tech.
P.S. These changes might also make Zerg fun to play again, brood-infestor makes them boring.
Tempest is the new bunker, it is changed every single patch.
On December 13 2012 22:35 Ameisenmann wrote: Haha there we go again with the completely baseless assumption that all terran and toss players are more skilled than zerg players. Do you seriously believe that?
No. "Baseless" is not giving your reasons. I already gave mine. Stephano is nearly as good as Life and Leenock, and he simply doesn't practice. Zerg is a low skill race, and that is exactly why the game is becoming boring.
All 20 of your posts on TL have been whining about Zerg being skill-less "a-move" and Protoss being so hard to play. It's just sad, really. And saying that a single spore crawler in the mineral line counters all Protoss harass is just silly. Phoenixes are not countered by single spores in the mineral line (they still have free reign over overlords, can snipe drones while only losing shields, etc.). Moreover, 3 oracles can kill a spore crawler really easily, and then kill every drone in an entire mineral line just as fast as a flock of mutas, so if Protoss is dedicated to their harass then they can still do major damage.
On topic, I really like the changes. Completely combined mech/air upgrades was just weird, and gave Terrans fewer upgrades to research than the other races, and it just seemed unfair to have the mech --> air transition not require any additional upgrades, and 2/2 or 3/3 vikings popping out right when brood lords show up, combined with the nerfed infestors, made late-game TvZ seem a little too easy for Terran, imo.
Are you really trying to argue with this guy? You realize every argument from other people has been ignored by him, and he just continues to cry about how the whole World is against the Protoss race. He is delusional or he is trolling. Either way, judging by his comments, he will be banned soon.
On December 14 2012 00:36 JDub wrote: All 20 of your posts on TL have been whining about Zerg being skill-less "a-move" and Protoss being so hard to play. It's just sad, really. And saying that a single spore crawler in the mineral line counters all Protoss harass is just silly..
Okay, so 2 spore crawlers. And maybe an extra queen. Still not seeing how it's any harder than tying shoelaces.
Clearly you can't have a mature discussion about balance without making the most absurd concessions to Zerg. What exactly do you want me to say? That it takes just as much skill to click on the big units to abduct them as it does to use time warps effectively? That stopping mutas is no more or less difficult than throwing down a couple of spore crawlers? That it takes just as much skill to effectively use the mothership core as it does to A-move with hydras?
No need to get the pitchforks, as there's nothing else that needs saying and I'm now done with this thread. Delude yourself that I'm delusional if you wish, but don't be surprised if this time next year BNet is a ghost town.
On December 13 2012 22:35 Ameisenmann wrote: Haha there we go again with the completely baseless assumption that all terran and toss players are more skilled than zerg players. Do you seriously believe that?
No. "Baseless" is not giving your reasons. I already gave mine. Stephano is nearly as good as Life and Leenock, and he simply doesn't practice. Zerg is a low skill race, and that is exactly why the game is becoming boring.
All 20 of your posts on TL have been whining about Zerg being skill-less "a-move" and Protoss being so hard to play. It's just sad, really. And saying that a single spore crawler in the mineral line counters all Protoss harass is just silly. Phoenixes are not countered by single spores in the mineral line (they still have free reign over overlords, can snipe drones while only losing shields, etc.). Moreover, 3 oracles can kill a spore crawler really easily, and then kill every drone in an entire mineral line just as fast as a flock of mutas, so if Protoss is dedicated to their harass then they can still do major damage.
On topic, I really like the changes. Completely combined mech/air upgrades was just weird, and gave Terrans fewer upgrades to research than the other races, and it just seemed unfair to have the mech --> air transition not require any additional upgrades, and 2/2 or 3/3 vikings popping out right when brood lords show up, combined with the nerfed infestors, made late-game TvZ seem a little too easy for Terran, imo.
Are you really trying to argue with this guy? You realize every argument from other people has been ignored by him, and he just continues to cry about how the whole World is against the Protoss race. He is delusional or he is trolling. Either way, judging by his comments, he will be banned soon.
meh... they want to bring in the seeker yamato, by making the Battle cruiser take as much hits as the Raven from a Tempest. combined armor upgrade is nice for Vikings on the ground tanking stuff. Both upgrades combined was really strong.
Widow mine change is awesome for suiciding burrow them into the opponent.
On December 13 2012 11:57 althaz wrote: I feel like Blizzard is really losing it. This is like fifth or six patch in a row without a single change to the bunker build time. Frankly I'm disgusted and I'm not sure I can continue to watch and play this game anymore.
On a more serious note, I actually dislike the Dark Shrine change, however I think that either dark shrine shoould require a Templar archives (and be correspondingly cheaper and faster to build) or the building should be scrapped and we should go back to Broodwar with the Archives giving both Templar.
The reason for this is it allows the Toss player to get something defensive (storm/feedback/archons) and something to put pressure on their opponents at the same time (DTs) without causing catestrophic damage to their own economy/tech.
P.S. These changes might also make Zerg fun to play again, brood-infestor makes them boring.
Tempest is the new bunker, it is changed every single patch.
That's not true, actually. It's the Widow Mine that got changed with every single beta patch so far. If you want to go with Protoss units, the Oracle also got changed every time, and had a whopping of 4 different abilities added and removed during the beta so far.
That and many more useless facts can be found at Liquipedia! Go visit Liquipedia today!
One thing Rossie got right is that now Hydra is a great counter to all this toss air play. Then toss needs to make a AoE damage unit to kill hydras, which will be HT as Colossi can be killed so easy by Vipers (which zerg should build even against Air toss to maximise usage of hydras in the back). And the result is HT vs Hydras Blizzard finally decided to copy BW, they just needed to do a big round trip and couple of years of figuring it out
On December 14 2012 01:41 -Archangel- wrote: One thing Rossie got right is that now Hydra is a great counter to all this toss air play. Then toss needs to make a AoE damage unit to kill hydras, which will be HT as Colossi can be killed so easy by Vipers (which zerg should build even against Air toss to maximise usage of hydras in the back). And the result is HT vs Hydras Blizzard finally decided to copy BW, they just needed to do a big round trip and couple of years of figuring it out
You're so right!
Except in SC2 protoss players can target all their HT's and spam the T button for storm and just r*pe the hydras.
In BW units were'nt as clumped and you had to target the the HT's individually.
As for now, there is nothing that beats the "Air-Toss" death ball.
It feels like Reapers in the earlygame, and oracles in the midgame are killing off mineral lines far too easily, and neither of these problems have been addressed... Then again, I haven't played a great deal of Hots yet, so time may prove me wrong.
On December 14 2012 01:41 -Archangel- wrote: One thing Rossie got right is that now Hydra is a great counter to all this toss air play. Then toss needs to make a AoE damage unit to kill hydras, which will be HT as Colossi can be killed so easy by Vipers (which zerg should build even against Air toss to maximise usage of hydras in the back). And the result is HT vs Hydras Blizzard finally decided to copy BW, they just needed to do a big round trip and couple of years of figuring it out
You're so right!
Except in SC2 protoss players can target all their HT's and spam the T button for storm and just r*pe the hydras.
In BW units were'nt as clumped and you had to target the the HT's individually.
As for now, there is nothing that beats the "Air-Toss" death ball.
True, but in BW Storm did more damage and had a bigger AoE. So I think it is still fair. Well it is until toss uses that Oracle area slow ability :D But it will still be more exciting then Colossi.
On December 13 2012 07:38 blade55555 wrote: If they want mutas to be used in zvt they need to make it so widows can't hit air or it can't hit mutas at least -_-.
Yep. They can buff Mutalisk is so many ways, but where they are so limited by Widow Mines, they won't be used in ZvT. Bio and Mech players have access to Widow Mines due to the way the Terran tech tree is structured, and running a ball of Muta into a single mine means 1 dead Muta and the rest with 40 less health. Run a ball of Mutas into 3 Widow Mines, and you've lost the game.
On December 13 2012 23:12 Insoleet wrote: Dont feed the troll guys...
Seriously, fuck off. It is SIMPLY TRUE that WoL is a greatly less enjoyable game thanks to the rule-following and low-skill nature of the Zerg race. It is SIMPLY TRUE that Protoss has been given a fragile-as-fuck mothership core and shitty, easy-to-counter harass unit, compared with the most insanely powerful units and buffs that have been provided to Zerg.
By trying to dismiss as a troll everyone who speaks the truth about Zerg, you are going to kill this game.
lol wow ! thanks for giving us your opinion. but your opinion is not a fact !
On December 14 2012 01:41 -Archangel- wrote: One thing Rossie got right is that now Hydra is a great counter to all this toss air play. Then toss needs to make a AoE damage unit to kill hydras, which will be HT as Colossi can be killed so easy by Vipers (which zerg should build even against Air toss to maximise usage of hydras in the back). And the result is HT vs Hydras Blizzard finally decided to copy BW, they just needed to do a big round trip and couple of years of figuring it out
That's true. In fact although I'm Zerg I wonder if hydra speed at Lair isn't actually too strong.
You liked 3 base roach timings? You'll love the speed hydra version.... especially when you go Stargate.
From a design point of few most of Terrans Mech and Air Units could use another overhaul. They're either too slow , have mediocre abilities or are way too specialised. HotS will still be alot of Bioplay which would be fine if the high tech units actually added something useful which is most cases they just don't. Which is just sad.
Ignoring balance for a second (hard to do, I know ) it's exciting to me that Blizzard is trying to push the game away from it's current deathball state with the latest series of changes. They're boosting harass options for all races which means slow deathball armies should be able to be fought with competent harass.
Still a lot of work to do but the last 2 patches have me more excited than I was a few short weeks ago.
On December 14 2012 01:41 -Archangel- wrote: One thing Rossie got right is that now Hydra is a great counter to all this toss air play. Then toss needs to make a AoE damage unit to kill hydras, which will be HT as Colossi can be killed so easy by Vipers (which zerg should build even against Air toss to maximise usage of hydras in the back). And the result is HT vs Hydras Blizzard finally decided to copy BW, they just needed to do a big round trip and couple of years of figuring it out
That's true. In fact although I'm Zerg I wonder if hydra speed at Lair isn't actually too strong.
You liked 3 base roach timings? You'll love the speed hydra version.... especially when you go Stargate.
It is less of a problem if the protoss relies on the MSC to defend their natural and expands behind stargate pressure. The reduced need for sentries is a huge help and lets me switch over to more robo tech quickly. Also, not having 10 or more supply tied up in sentries really helps vs hydras, since sentries are garbage in combat and made of glass.
I really feel the MSC is the best addition to protoss in HotS. Removing protoss's dependency on sentries to defend really frees up map design and should allow for more intresting...everything in the game. Having ramps at the natural that take 3 or 4 force fields to block was impossible in WoL, but can happen in HotS.
On December 14 2012 02:46 s3rp wrote: From a design point of few most of Terrans Mech and Air Units could use another overhaul. They're either too slow , have mediocre abilities or are way too specialised. HotS will still be alot of Bioplay which would be fine if the high tech units actually added something useful which is most cases they just don't. Which is just sad.
Mech is also really hard to play and has a number of pitfalls that will get you stupid losses. Its is amost like a Protoss trying to copy one of Liquid Hero's builds. It is possible to do, but one mistake will lose you the game. I think once the pro players dig their teeth in and work out a few brutal mech timings, it will be easier.
But you are right, Mech does not bring the fear that bio does.
Going to be interesting to see how the mutalisk regen ability turns out. Would be nice it makes mutalisks more viable, but like a few others have said, I'm a bit worried ZvZ will only be muta vs muta.
I think it was a good idea to add a new color to the medivac heal after the upgrade is completed. The chosen color looks nice too.
Why not just making mutas more microable instead of giving them speed/regen?
And at this point Tempests should just say "+50 damage vs. Broodlords." Talk about a niche unit. Yikes. It also makes Carriers and BCs completely useless vs P now. IMO they should just make Tempests do AoE damage and adjust the damage/range/speed accordingly. This will make it so it still counters mass Broodlords (which is the problem, nobody has issues vs 1 or 2 Broodlords alone), but make Broodlords, BCs, and Carriers still viable units.
On December 14 2012 03:22 Skyro wrote: Why not just making mutas more microable instead of giving them speed/regen?
And at this point Tempests should just say "+50 damage vs. Broodlords." Talk about a niche unit. Yikes. It also makes Carriers and BCs completely useless vs P now. IMO they should just make Tempests do AoE damage and adjust the damage/range/speed accordingly. This will make it so it still counters mass Broodlords (which is the problem, nobody has issues vs 1 or 2 Broodlords alone), but make Broodlords, BCs, and Carriers still viable units.
they should just remove widow mine anti air. Absolutely unplayable. Any change to mutas doesn't matter for tvz except the widow mine change.
On December 14 2012 03:22 Skyro wrote: Why not just making mutas more microable instead of giving them speed/regen?
And at this point Tempests should just say "+50 damage vs. Broodlords." Talk about a niche unit. Yikes. It also makes Carriers and BCs completely useless vs P now. IMO they should just make Tempests do AoE damage and adjust the damage/range/speed accordingly. This will make it so it still counters mass Broodlords (which is the problem, nobody has issues vs 1 or 2 Broodlords alone), but make Broodlords, BCs, and Carriers still viable units.
The Tempest was an AOE anti-mutalisk unit before it got changed to a long range siege anti-massive type of unit.
On December 14 2012 03:22 Skyro wrote: Why not just making mutas more microable instead of giving them speed/regen?
And at this point Tempests should just say "+50 damage vs. Broodlords." Talk about a niche unit. Yikes. It also makes Carriers and BCs completely useless vs P now. IMO they should just make Tempests do AoE damage and adjust the damage/range/speed accordingly. This will make it so it still counters mass Broodlords (which is the problem, nobody has issues vs 1 or 2 Broodlords alone), but make Broodlords, BCs, and Carriers still viable units.
BC's, yeah, I totally agree. Carriers, no, that's not true. Right now Void Ray>Tempest>Carrier>Void Ray.
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
Easily fixable. They could just make it so they don't start this higher regen unless they have been out of combat for a while.
That being said, I'm not too convinced this is the best idea. As other posters have said, mutalisks will still never be used in ZvT unless widow mines are made to not attack air.
On December 14 2012 01:41 -Archangel- wrote: One thing Rossie got right is that now Hydra is a great counter to all this toss air play. Then toss needs to make a AoE damage unit to kill hydras, which will be HT as Colossi can be killed so easy by Vipers (which zerg should build even against Air toss to maximise usage of hydras in the back). And the result is HT vs Hydras Blizzard finally decided to copy BW, they just needed to do a big round trip and couple of years of figuring it out
That's true. In fact although I'm Zerg I wonder if hydra speed at Lair isn't actually too strong.
You liked 3 base roach timings? You'll love the speed hydra version.... especially when you go Stargate.
This is very different then 3 base roach. Hydra are too expensive and you need to get 2 upgrades for them. Also hydra have good dps but low HP and armor. Maybe there will be a timing for pure stargate play but smart players will just switch into a hybrid stargate/robotics or stargate/templars
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
whoa, that was really the dumbest possible reinterpretation of a regen. big up man, impressive
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
lol... umm... maybe if you had every individual Stalker hitting every individual Muta that would make sense. And never had more Stalkers than Mutas. If that was the case, you were probably losing in WoL vs Mutas though :D
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
Micro the hell out of those Phoenixes lol
Exactly! This is actually a blessing in disguise for the PvZ matchup.
It creates a greater incentive for mutalisks vs protoss, and at the same time creates more incentive to go phoenixes, which absolutely destroy mutas now. The +1 range encourages more people to use the micro, because it is now doable without the extra range upgrade. Plus the new passive healing doesn't change how fast mutas get eaten alive by phoenixes.
And while most other toss options don't do well against mutas, this means that there are more times when toss will want to go for air units in the matchup, which is good news in my opinion, especially with the fungal change to a projectile. Now the whole air tech path is no longer instantly countered when infestors come out. It again plays to the strengths of people with good multitask and micro, who can keep an eye on their phoenixes all the time.
And finally, active units like the mutalisk and the phoenix are just more interesting units, and make the matchup much more fun to watch and play than turtle into colossus, or turtle into broodlord/infestor.
On December 14 2012 05:20 RinconH wrote: I agree Widow Mine vs. air is annoying but if Blizzard removes air attack how will Widow Mines being able to zone up the map?
Air Units could just clear them from every choke with no risk.
First of all one needs to detection (which against we don't see that often with mutas). Secondly terrans could consider combining them with turrets. Right now their role also overlaps too much with turrets i think.
But anyway remove anti air and make them 1 food and everybody is happy.
LoL. Blizzard always with these ninja changes and they are often huge. Warpin on Ramp....wow. What about Highground warpin? Probably still gone. Blizzard is patching really strangely. Making already op stuff like battle hellion vs lings even more op and and now making tempest vs capital ships/broodlrods broken as hell. Now every zerg has to go ultralisk vs toss for the late game for sure.
I still don't understand why Dark Shrines are more affordable. Are they trying to make DT harass more viable than it already is? Only thing that's been bothering me with this patch note.
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
Micro the hell out of those Phoenixes lol
Exactly! This is actually a blessing in disguise for the PvZ matchup.
It creates a greater incentive for mutalisks vs protoss, and at the same time creates more incentive to go phoenixes, which absolutely destroy mutas now. The +1 range encourages more people to use the micro, because it is now doable without the extra range upgrade. Plus the new passive healing doesn't change how fast mutas get eaten alive by phoenixes.
And while most other toss options don't do well against mutas, this means that there are more times when toss will want to go for air units in the matchup, which is good news in my opinion, especially with the fungal change to a projectile. Now the whole air tech path is no longer instantly countered when infestors come out. It again plays to the strengths of people with good multitask and micro, who can keep an eye on their phoenixes all the time.
And finally, active units like the mutalisk and the phoenix are just more interesting units, and make the matchup much more fun to watch and play than turtle into colossus, or turtle into broodlord/infestor.
Blizzard: Hey Protoss players! We know you hated having to do 2 years of Robo play with Stargate only for some gimmicks, so with the Muta buff, we swapped that for you! Enjoy the next 2 years of Stargate only with little possibility of any variation!
Just a heads up. It seems thors are broken. Javelin missiles are not doing splash damage. I thought I was crazy or something when I noticed it in-game but the bug exists in the editor as well.
On December 14 2012 05:35 Mudkipnick wrote: I still don't understand why Dark Shrines are more affordable. Are they trying to make DT harass more viable than it already is? Only thing that's been bothering me with this patch note.
They wanted to encourage more DT use in the late game.
3. Buff DTs not necessarily for the DT rush case, but to have DTs more often in the late game.
We wanted the Dark Shrine to feel like a more desirable tech option for players. By reducing the cost of the Dark Shrine, Dark Templar can be utilized in more late game scenarios.
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
Micro the hell out of those Phoenixes lol
Exactly! This is actually a blessing in disguise for the PvZ matchup.
It creates a greater incentive for mutalisks vs protoss, and at the same time creates more incentive to go phoenixes, which absolutely destroy mutas now. The +1 range encourages more people to use the micro, because it is now doable without the extra range upgrade. Plus the new passive healing doesn't change how fast mutas get eaten alive by phoenixes.
And while most other toss options don't do well against mutas, this means that there are more times when toss will want to go for air units in the matchup, which is good news in my opinion, especially with the fungal change to a projectile. Now the whole air tech path is no longer instantly countered when infestors come out. It again plays to the strengths of people with good multitask and micro, who can keep an eye on their phoenixes all the time.
And finally, active units like the mutalisk and the phoenix are just more interesting units, and make the matchup much more fun to watch and play than turtle into colossus, or turtle into broodlord/infestor.
Blizzard: Hey Protoss players! We know you hated having to do 2 years of Robo play with Stargate only for some gimmicks, so with the Muta buff, we swapped that for you! Enjoy the next 2 years of Stargate only with little possibility of any variation!
Blizzard: Hey Protoss players! We know that you don't like playing against mutalisks, so we keep on buffing phoenixes. We know that you hate playing vs Infestors, so we nerf them. We know that you don't like to play against Broodlords, so you get Tempests. We know that roaches are kind of hard to kill if you don't go robo, so we buff the shit out of voidrays. We know you had a hard time harassing in WoL, so we created the Oracle.
Protoss: WTF, to do those things I have to do something different then mass robo and gateway units?
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
Micro the hell out of those Phoenixes lol
Exactly! This is actually a blessing in disguise for the PvZ matchup.
It creates a greater incentive for mutalisks vs protoss, and at the same time creates more incentive to go phoenixes, which absolutely destroy mutas now. The +1 range encourages more people to use the micro, because it is now doable without the extra range upgrade. Plus the new passive healing doesn't change how fast mutas get eaten alive by phoenixes.
And while most other toss options don't do well against mutas, this means that there are more times when toss will want to go for air units in the matchup, which is good news in my opinion, especially with the fungal change to a projectile. Now the whole air tech path is no longer instantly countered when infestors come out. It again plays to the strengths of people with good multitask and micro, who can keep an eye on their phoenixes all the time.
And finally, active units like the mutalisk and the phoenix are just more interesting units, and make the matchup much more fun to watch and play than turtle into colossus, or turtle into broodlord/infestor.
Blizzard: Hey Protoss players! We know you hated having to do 2 years of Robo play with Stargate only for some gimmicks, so with the Muta buff, we swapped that for you! Enjoy the next 2 years of Stargate only with little possibility of any variation!
Blizzard: Hey Protoss players! We know that you don't like playing against mutalisks, so we keep on buffing phoenixes. We know that you hate playing vs Infestors, so we nerf them. We know that you don't like to play against Broodlords, so you get Tempests. We know that roaches are kind of hard to kill if you don't go robo, so we buff the shit out of voidrays. We know you had a hard time harassing in WoL, so we created the Oracle.
Protoss: WTF, to do those things I have to do something different then mass robo and gateway units?
The point is they are just trading one forced tech tree for another. Between Muta buffs, Vipers, Swarm hosts, Robo play is not nearly as viable as it was before and you pretty much have to go Stargate, now. It's even worse now because with Muta speed + health regen, Storm is about a billion times less effective vs Mutas.
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
Micro the hell out of those Phoenixes lol
Exactly! This is actually a blessing in disguise for the PvZ matchup.
It creates a greater incentive for mutalisks vs protoss, and at the same time creates more incentive to go phoenixes, which absolutely destroy mutas now. The +1 range encourages more people to use the micro, because it is now doable without the extra range upgrade. Plus the new passive healing doesn't change how fast mutas get eaten alive by phoenixes.
And while most other toss options don't do well against mutas, this means that there are more times when toss will want to go for air units in the matchup, which is good news in my opinion, especially with the fungal change to a projectile. Now the whole air tech path is no longer instantly countered when infestors come out. It again plays to the strengths of people with good multitask and micro, who can keep an eye on their phoenixes all the time.
And finally, active units like the mutalisk and the phoenix are just more interesting units, and make the matchup much more fun to watch and play than turtle into colossus, or turtle into broodlord/infestor.
Blizzard: Hey Protoss players! We know you hated having to do 2 years of Robo play with Stargate only for some gimmicks, so with the Muta buff, we swapped that for you! Enjoy the next 2 years of Stargate only with little possibility of any variation!
Blizzard: Hey Protoss players! We know that you don't like playing against mutalisks, so we keep on buffing phoenixes. We know that you hate playing vs Infestors, so we nerf them. We know that you don't like to play against Broodlords, so you get Tempests. We know that roaches are kind of hard to kill if you don't go robo, so we buff the shit out of voidrays. We know you had a hard time harassing in WoL, so we created the Oracle.
Protoss: WTF, to do those things I have to do something different then mass robo and gateway units?
The point is they are just trading one forced tech tree for another. Between Muta buffs, Vipers, Swarm hosts, Robo play is not nearly as viable as it was before and you pretty much have to go Stargate, now. It's even worse now because with Muta speed + health regen, Storm is about a billion times less effective vs Mutas.
In WoL, "only" 1-2 Robo (+Archon) play is so viable that Zerg must go full air against it, because there is nothing on the ground to combat it. I really don't think those changes will make it suddenly "not viable".
Just watched a long ZvZ with Machine vs some other Zerg. Mast fast-regen speed muta bonanza. Interesting. The other zerg showed up eventually with some fungal to get the advantage and it was GG.
Well it was nice to not see mass roach at least... I wonder if we will eventually get tired of mass Muta ZvZ...
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
ONE Stalker will do 5.9 DPS. Each additional one attacking the muta will do 6.9.
On December 14 2012 05:35 Mudkipnick wrote: I still don't understand why Dark Shrines are more affordable. Are they trying to make DT harass more viable than it already is? Only thing that's been bothering me with this patch note.
They wanted to encourage more DT use in the late game.
We wanted the Dark Shrine to feel like a more desirable tech option for players. By reducing the cost of the Dark Shrine, Dark Templar can be utilized in more late game scenarios.
On December 14 2012 05:24 adogh345 wrote: LoL. Blizzard always with these ninja changes and they are often huge. Warpin on Ramp....wow. What about Highground warpin? Probably still gone.
The warp in on ramps isn't such a big change since you can only warp in on ramps when you have a pylon on the high ground. So you can't use it offensively (bypassing forcefields), which was the reason it was removed in the first place, afaik.
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
Micro the hell out of those Phoenixes lol
Exactly! This is actually a blessing in disguise for the PvZ matchup.
It creates a greater incentive for mutalisks vs protoss, and at the same time creates more incentive to go phoenixes, which absolutely destroy mutas now. The +1 range encourages more people to use the micro, because it is now doable without the extra range upgrade. Plus the new passive healing doesn't change how fast mutas get eaten alive by phoenixes.
And while most other toss options don't do well against mutas, this means that there are more times when toss will want to go for air units in the matchup, which is good news in my opinion, especially with the fungal change to a projectile. Now the whole air tech path is no longer instantly countered when infestors come out. It again plays to the strengths of people with good multitask and micro, who can keep an eye on their phoenixes all the time.
And finally, active units like the mutalisk and the phoenix are just more interesting units, and make the matchup much more fun to watch and play than turtle into colossus, or turtle into broodlord/infestor.
Blizzard: Hey Protoss players! We know you hated having to do 2 years of Robo play with Stargate only for some gimmicks, so with the Muta buff, we swapped that for you! Enjoy the next 2 years of Stargate only with little possibility of any variation!
Blizzard: Hey Protoss players! We know that you don't like playing against mutalisks, so we keep on buffing phoenixes. We know that you hate playing vs Infestors, so we nerf them. We know that you don't like to play against Broodlords, so you get Tempests. We know that roaches are kind of hard to kill if you don't go robo, so we buff the shit out of voidrays. We know you had a hard time harassing in WoL, so we created the Oracle.
Protoss: WTF, to do those things I have to do something different then mass robo and gateway units?
The point is they are just trading one forced tech tree for another. Between Muta buffs, Vipers, Swarm hosts, Robo play is not nearly as viable as it was before and you pretty much have to go Stargate, now. It's even worse now because with Muta speed + health regen, Storm is about a billion times less effective vs Mutas.
In WoL, "only" 1-2 Robo (+Archon) play is so viable that Zerg must go full air against it, because there is nothing on the ground to combat it. I really don't think those changes will make it suddenly "not viable".
If Zerg goes for Mutas and you've opened Robo, you're already in some trouble in WoL. Not an autoloss, but you're definitely playing from behind. If Robo units are significantly weakened against standard Zerg (reducing the benefit of playing Robo) and Mutas are strengthened (increasing the risk of playing Robo), can you be surprised that players will move from Robo to Stargate?
You're also ignoring that Protoss literally can't do anything BUT go Gateway/Robo. What Stargate units are we supposed to use against Zerg? Phoenix are good until Infestors come out. Void Rays are good never. Carriers are only "good" against Infestor/Broodlord. The Mothership is already used. The only units that a Protoss player can possibly bring to the table against a Zerg are Gateway and Robo units. That's nine different units! That's the MAJORITY of the Protoss units! Why are you being so obstinately ignorant?
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
ONE Stalker will do 5.9 DPS. Each additional one attacking the muta will do 6.9.
Think.
Realistically, it's going to be somewhere in the middle because not all the Stalkers will attack the same Muta. It's kind of irrelevant anyway, because this buff is most important against Storm.
reaper-widow-banshee is pretty much the only strat that is viable in TvT now, gonna be awhile before anyone figures out a good counter build. Every single terran player is doing this right now in TvT and its getting pretty absurd. Like you cant even experiment with new builds or you will just die lol...
since tempest own BC's even harder now i think they should remove energy and put yamato and a timer.
30 + 50 vs massive for the Tempest seems a bit silly because that basically means you're just supposed to use it against BCs, BLs and Colossi, so in practice you're only going to use them vs BLs. The unit just seems a little piegon holed. I think it should have a different ground attack, maybe some kind of AoE.
On December 14 2012 07:15 eot wrote: 30 + 50 vs massive for the Tempest seems a bit silly because that basically means you're just supposed to use it against BCs, BLs and Colossi, so in practice you're only going to use them vs BLs. The unit just seems a little piegon holed. I think it should have a different ground attack, maybe some kind of AoE.
Oh hell no this unit should not recive a buff . If they recive a ground attack with Aoe , it should at max be 7 range. Tempest already force engagements with their long range they don't need a stronger one against ground
On December 14 2012 02:54 ShamW0W wrote: Ignoring balance for a second (hard to do, I know ) it's exciting to me that Blizzard is trying to push the game away from it's current deathball state with the latest series of changes. They're boosting harass options for all races which means slow deathball armies should be able to be fought with competent harass.
Still a lot of work to do but the last 2 patches have me more excited than I was a few short weeks ago.
Well said. I completely agree. These design decisions are what's critical at this point! They can use their balancing tools and win/loss analysis stuff to get the stats/damage/whatever right.
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
Micro the hell out of those Phoenixes lol
Exactly! This is actually a blessing in disguise for the PvZ matchup.
It creates a greater incentive for mutalisks vs protoss, and at the same time creates more incentive to go phoenixes, which absolutely destroy mutas now. The +1 range encourages more people to use the micro, because it is now doable without the extra range upgrade. Plus the new passive healing doesn't change how fast mutas get eaten alive by phoenixes.
And while most other toss options don't do well against mutas, this means that there are more times when toss will want to go for air units in the matchup, which is good news in my opinion, especially with the fungal change to a projectile. Now the whole air tech path is no longer instantly countered when infestors come out. It again plays to the strengths of people with good multitask and micro, who can keep an eye on their phoenixes all the time.
And finally, active units like the mutalisk and the phoenix are just more interesting units, and make the matchup much more fun to watch and play than turtle into colossus, or turtle into broodlord/infestor.
Blizzard: Hey Protoss players! We know you hated having to do 2 years of Robo play with Stargate only for some gimmicks, so with the Muta buff, we swapped that for you! Enjoy the next 2 years of Stargate only with little possibility of any variation!
Blizzard: Hey Protoss players! We know that you don't like playing against mutalisks, so we keep on buffing phoenixes. We know that you hate playing vs Infestors, so we nerf them. We know that you don't like to play against Broodlords, so you get Tempests. We know that roaches are kind of hard to kill if you don't go robo, so we buff the shit out of voidrays. We know you had a hard time harassing in WoL, so we created the Oracle.
Protoss: WTF, to do those things I have to do something different then mass robo and gateway units?
WTF are you even blabbering about. Robo was never good vs muta. The muta vs. blink stalkers/HT dynamic was already very good in WoL, both from a play and spectating standpoint. You ideally want both stargate and twilight tech to be viable vs mutas. HT defense may not even be viable anymore with Muta regen.
On December 14 2012 05:35 Mudkipnick wrote: I still don't understand why Dark Shrines are more affordable. Are they trying to make DT harass more viable than it already is? Only thing that's been bothering me with this patch note.
They wanted to encourage more DT use in the late game.
3. Buff DTs not necessarily for the DT rush case, but to have DTs more often in the late game.
We wanted the Dark Shrine to feel like a more desirable tech option for players. By reducing the cost of the Dark Shrine, Dark Templar can be utilized in more late game scenarios.
On December 14 2012 05:35 Mudkipnick wrote: I still don't understand why Dark Shrines are more affordable. Are they trying to make DT harass more viable than it already is? Only thing that's been bothering me with this patch note.
They wanted to encourage more DT use in the late game.
3. Buff DTs not necessarily for the DT rush case, but to have DTs more often in the late game.
We wanted the Dark Shrine to feel like a more desirable tech option for players. By reducing the cost of the Dark Shrine, Dark Templar can be utilized in more late game scenarios.
Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
On December 14 2012 03:38 freetgy wrote: mutas will be so OP in PvZ Stalker already only do 6.9 dps to mutas this will be now further reduced to 5.9 dps due to the healing.
Micro the hell out of those Phoenixes lol
Exactly! This is actually a blessing in disguise for the PvZ matchup.
It creates a greater incentive for mutalisks vs protoss, and at the same time creates more incentive to go phoenixes, which absolutely destroy mutas now. The +1 range encourages more people to use the micro, because it is now doable without the extra range upgrade. Plus the new passive healing doesn't change how fast mutas get eaten alive by phoenixes.
And while most other toss options don't do well against mutas, this means that there are more times when toss will want to go for air units in the matchup, which is good news in my opinion, especially with the fungal change to a projectile. Now the whole air tech path is no longer instantly countered when infestors come out. It again plays to the strengths of people with good multitask and micro, who can keep an eye on their phoenixes all the time.
And finally, active units like the mutalisk and the phoenix are just more interesting units, and make the matchup much more fun to watch and play than turtle into colossus, or turtle into broodlord/infestor.
Blizzard: Hey Protoss players! We know you hated having to do 2 years of Robo play with Stargate only for some gimmicks, so with the Muta buff, we swapped that for you! Enjoy the next 2 years of Stargate only with little possibility of any variation!
Blizzard: Hey Protoss players! We know that you don't like playing against mutalisks, so we keep on buffing phoenixes. We know that you hate playing vs Infestors, so we nerf them. We know that you don't like to play against Broodlords, so you get Tempests. We know that roaches are kind of hard to kill if you don't go robo, so we buff the shit out of voidrays. We know you had a hard time harassing in WoL, so we created the Oracle.
Protoss: WTF, to do those things I have to do something different then mass robo and gateway units?
I think this might be an accurate depiction of the Protoss players who are disappointed in HotS. Really, they won't be happy until they can spam Stalkers from the beginning to the end and run everything over doing minimally anything else.
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
actually this is a great idea. Burrow rushes could be a fun strategy to explore, if only temporarily.
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
actually this is a great idea. Burrow rushes could be a fun strategy to explore, if only temporarily.
It would be a legit tech-based opening for Zerg - something I think they lack. Everyone can do econ openings, everyone can do army openings, but only P/T can force a response with tech. Burrowed banelings are no stronger offensively than ordinary banelings - less so, because there are 4 fewer banelings. They just do what other tech openings do: sacrifice economy for delaying your opponent's aggression. Also it gives defensive options versus oracles, banshees, drops etc. I really, really hope they at least test it out.
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Instead of removing colossus and broodlord out of the game, they are buffing tempest to counteract these two units. Just get rid of them already, both units are terrible design wise.
I played against AI an hour ago, and it happend that one of my carriers "dodged" a seeker missle. I wasn't able to reproduce it, 'cause i don't play Protoss regularly enough, but it could be a very deadly bug, since a seeker missle one shoots a carrier. Maybe you could watch out if it happens to you too.
On December 14 2012 09:37 Striker.superfreunde wrote: I played against AI an hour ago, and it happend that one of my carriers "dodged" a seeker missle. I wasn't able to reproduce it, 'cause i don't play Protoss regularly enough, but it could be a very deadly bug, since a seeker missle one shoots a carrier. Maybe you could watch out if it happens to you too.
Seeker missiles don't 1 shot carriers - carriers have 450 total HP, the missile does 300 dmg.
Thinking about it more, it's a bit concerning that mutas are receiving a huge stack of buffs in a futile attempt to get them used against Teran's invisible instadeath.... and those buffs instead make them so powerful against protoss that stargate is mandatory.
They're repeatedly failing to fix ZvT, and badly mangling ZvP in the process.
Just. Make. The. Mine. Shoot. Ground. It's really not that hard.
On December 14 2012 09:51 Belisarius wrote: Thinking about it more, it's a bit concerning that mutas are receiving a huge stack of buffs in a futile attempt to get them used against Teran's invisible instadeath.... and those buffs instead make them so powerful against protoss that stargate is mandatory.
They're repeatedly failing to fix ZvT, and badly mangling ZvP in the process.
Just. Make. The. Mine. Shoot. Ground. It's really not that hard.
EDIT: Huh, reaver. That was inauspicious.
Since people keep talking about it in this thread...
Poll: Widow Mine rebalanced to only attack ground?
Yes (38)
67%
No (19)
33%
57 total votes
Your vote: Widow Mine rebalanced to only attack ground?
On December 14 2012 09:37 Striker.superfreunde wrote: I played against AI an hour ago, and it happend that one of my carriers "dodged" a seeker missle. I wasn't able to reproduce it, 'cause i don't play Protoss regularly enough, but it could be a very deadly bug, since a seeker missle one shoots a carrier. Maybe you could watch out if it happens to you too.
Seeker missiles don't 1 shot carriers - carriers have 450 total HP, the missile does 300 dmg.
What have i played than @.@ I have to re-check the replay, probably i was confused because they have 300 hp, but still, if it's reproducable - not good.
On December 14 2012 09:51 Belisarius wrote: Thinking about it more, it's a bit concerning that mutas are receiving a huge stack of buffs in a futile attempt to get them used against Teran's invisible instadeath.... and those buffs instead make them so powerful against protoss that stargate is mandatory.
They're repeatedly failing to fix ZvT, and badly mangling ZvP in the process.
Just. Make. The. Mine. Shoot. Ground. It's really not that hard.
EDIT: Huh, reaver. That was inauspicious.
Since people keep talking about it in this thread...
Poll: Widow Mine rebalanced to only attack ground?
Yes (38)
67%
No (19)
33%
57 total votes
Your vote: Widow Mine rebalanced to only attack ground?
Widow mines are fairly bad for the game in their present incarnation - the fact that they suck late game is a blessing if anything. An "army" comprised of mines with a bit of mech/bio support ... support for mines!... is a dumb concept to begin with. Maybe if Terran was the race of sacrificial / automated units like its two rivals. It makes far more sense, game wise and thematically, to give Terran a mine-laying unit which also has a decent standalone attack, and make the mines somewhat less effective than they are presently.
I just don't like this "unit" at all. A mine is not a unit, dammit. Maybe it's possible to balance it as one, but I doubt it can be done in an interesting way.
Edit - if they really wanted to keep mines as a unit and not an ability. Make the mine have one mode to shoot ground and another to shoot air, and have it be visible when in air targetting mode. That would at least make it less effective vs air harass. Then they could reverse that stupid muta regen buff and replace it with, I don't know, moving shot.
i think the mutalisk change is done wrong. when you go mutas you're not paying for the damage they do directly, you pay for the indirect economical(forcing turrets) and attention resources you force on you're opponent. i think that there's a better way to go about the change, but the only thing i can think of that would work well is to make maps with more surface area that you need to defend at your base. although this change can help your mutas stay in combat for more time, i usually found that that wasn't the problem I had with mutas. anyway i hope this works well and doesn't buff them too much. i also don't quite know what to think of the other changes. new aesthetics(medivac change) are always fun.
On December 13 2012 08:15 templar rage wrote: Toss are gonna be pretty much forced to open SG from now on in PvZ I think. Storm as a counter isn't really going to do a great job since mutas regen so quick now. I can eat a full duration storm, fly away for a minute, and come back almost full health. And that's just a full duration storm, which shouldn't happen at all really. More likely scenario is I eat like 30-40 damage and come back in 20s to the same effect.
And I think ZvZ was already going towards the BW style of muta/ling all day every day with the FG projectile. It's so fucking hard to hit mutas now, and it won't even do as much as before now.
On December 14 2012 11:46 Dynamitekid wrote: I am not to happy with the way this game is going. Every unit and their mother has an ability.
for sure. they should not be messing with the mutalisk at all. if your game has different 'rules' for every single unit, it's a mark of weak design. blizzard's team is currently attempting to fix one thing (mines shutting down muta in tvz) by breaking something else (buffing muta health, to the detriment of pvz and zvz).
the tempest's massive bonuses, rendering it a niche unit... terran air/mech armor being merged but not weapons... these are not intuitive changes. they're complex, which is off putting to casuals and just... reeks of messy, un thought out game design.
at least HoTS doesnt feel completely stagnant anymore, blizz did good by shaking things up in patch 8, but now i think they just need to slow down a bit and retool all those hasty changes... like, put the time and effort in to make stuff worthy of a final release. Changing ravens, mines, ultras, oracles etc was a good idea, now they just need to get them done RIGHT.
As someone that can't micro at all, I kind of like that SC 2 has a crazy amount of abilities. I think it helps offset the lowering of skill needed in other areas. I'm not the biggest fan of spells/abilities that don't require any clicking, but I'm not sure how much that bothers me. P vs T is crazy. Too many hotkeys are needed. Phoenixes, oracles, templars, sentries, and the mothership core should all have their own hotkey. God forbid you got blink and you also need to find a way to micro that. If only it were as hard as Terran. 90% of units just requiring stim, and they even put medivacs in the same control group. Terran micro being insane, the biggest perpetuated myth. I'm afraid they might not be able to keep it up.
It would perhaps be nice if the "select all army" key could be set to w/e you wanted, be it remaining as is or simply used as another hotkey for the infinite number of units with spells.
On December 14 2012 12:35 imEnex wrote: ZvZ will be similar to what the ZvZ in broodwar was. I excited for this change because it requires more multitasking which results in more APM.
Better players will now have an advantage. HoTS will truly determine the gosu players to less-gosu players
However, I wish there was a way for a player with fewer mutas but better micro to beat a player with more mutas but inferior micro. BW had stacking mechanics and Scourge, but I wonder what could be tweaked in SC2 to achieve this.
Actually, I kind of like the terran armory nerf. I know in a way it seems un-intuitive, but I like how it's giving a ground dominance vs air dominance aspect to the way you upgrade your tech. If you go Bio in earlygame, then you when you start to transition into late game, you can choose: am I going ground superiority with mech weapons, or do I get air superiority with air weapons? At least the armor upg. makes switches between air and mech easier.
80 massive air damage on the Tempest? Who's ever going to make Battlecruisers or Carriers against a Protoss opponent now (not that people did before, but still)? Methinks Blizzard seems to like the new toy a little too much.
argh Mutalisks are going to be even more difficult to deal with. 2-3 Turrets aren't enough when you have like 15-20 mutas, now you need like 2-3 widow mines per mineral line + dot the outer radius with turrets.
Battlecruiers - not as scary late game, give them an ability like warp drive in battlestar galactica (like stalker blink but slower), that would look really cool, and increase their damage output
Nydus - make this more HP so that it can withstand worker attacks, and less resource requirement.
Carriers - buff this also so we see more carrier play
On December 14 2012 15:44 dgwow wrote: I'd like to see some changes made to
Battlecruiers - not as scary late game, give them an ability like warp drive in battlestar galactica (like stalker blink but slower), that would look really cool, and increase their damage output
Nydus - make this more HP so that it can withstand worker attacks, and less resource requirement.
Carriers - buff this also so we see more carrier play
Buffing nydus would suck. Nydus is already a gigantic gimmick that is too similar to drops, making it too strong would make all ins really dumb.
On December 14 2012 15:44 dgwow wrote: I'd like to see some changes made to
Battlecruiers - not as scary late game, give them an ability like warp drive in battlestar galactica (like stalker blink but slower), that would look really cool, and increase their damage output
Nydus - make this more HP so that it can withstand worker attacks, and less resource requirement.
Carriers - buff this also so we see more carrier play
The carrier was already buffed secretly in the last patch and is actually a lot stronger now. Voidray/carrier/tempest/templar will kill any army and is probably the strongest composition in hots at least in pvz. If zerg lets a toss get that army the zerg will never kill it.
I think they should just scrap Tempest and fix Carrier to take it's role so that units like BCs/Broodlords have their place in the game. Right now, you just don't build them, period.
Really hope they do something to the Widow Mine to help Muta play. Just played a game where Terran scanned my spire and hid 3 widow mines in his mineral line as a nice little present. Went down from 10 Mutas to 7 weak mutas before killing any SCVs.
I've even tried going in with an Overseer to lead me except that it takes 2 shots to kill an Overseer from a Widow Mine meaning that in addition to worrying about keeping my Mutas alive while harassing, I'm also worried about my Overseer too while also keeping up with my macro and controlling my main army.
I'm not saying Widow Mines shouldn't be allowed to hit air, but something needs to be done so that 100/100/2 units aren't instantly one shot with 40 AoE damage by a 75/25/2 unit. That's just way too cost effective, especially when Zerg has no real way to counter it when harassing with Mutas. It's simply, "Oh I got hit with a Widow Mine. Minus one Muta I guess. Oh here come the marines/thor, time to run away while the Terran player is trading with me cost effectively every single time I try to harass with Mutas."
On December 14 2012 15:44 dgwow wrote: I'd like to see some changes made to
Battlecruiers - not as scary late game, give them an ability like warp drive in battlestar galactica (like stalker blink but slower), that would look really cool, and increase their damage output
Nydus - make this more HP so that it can withstand worker attacks, and less resource requirement.
Carriers - buff this also so we see more carrier play
The carrier was already buffed secretly in the last patch and is actually a lot stronger now. Voidray/carrier/tempest/templar will kill any army and is probably the strongest composition in hots at least in pvz. If zerg lets a toss get that army the zerg will never kill it.
If history has shown us anything, it's that people WILL figure out a way to safely get that army. Then there'll be much complaining about Protoss having an unbeatable lategame composition, and Protoss players saying it's payback for Infestor/Broodlord.
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
On December 14 2012 13:45 ref4 wrote: argh Mutalisks are going to be even more difficult to deal with. 2-3 Turrets aren't enough when you have like 15-20 mutas, now you need like 2-3 widow mines per mineral line + dot the outer radius with turrets.
20 Mutas is 2000/2000/40 rescourrces and you want to shut it down with 2-3 turrets that cost like +- 250 minerals only??
Some people really want to have godmode for their race I guess
On December 14 2012 13:45 ref4 wrote: argh Mutalisks are going to be even more difficult to deal with. 2-3 Turrets aren't enough when you have like 15-20 mutas, now you need like 2-3 widow mines per mineral line + dot the outer radius with turrets.
20 Mutas is 2000/2000/40 rescourrces and you want to shut it down with 2-3 turrets that cost like +- 250 minerals only??
Some people really want to have godmode for their race I guess
Yeah and it's not like 20mutas wouldn't have done that in WoL... They just regenerate a little faster and fly slightly faster.
On December 14 2012 17:20 sagefreke wrote: Really hope they do something to the Widow Mine to help Muta play. Just played a game where Terran scanned my spire and hid 3 widow mines in his mineral line as a nice little present. Went down from 10 Mutas to 7 weak mutas before killing any SCVs.
I've even tried going in with an Overseer to lead me except that it takes 2 shots to kill an Overseer from a Widow Mine meaning that in addition to worrying about keeping my Mutas alive while harassing, I'm also worried about my Overseer too while also keeping up with my macro and controlling my main army.
I'm not saying Widow Mines shouldn't be allowed to hit air, but something needs to be done so that 100/100/2 units aren't instantly one shot with 40 AoE damage by a 75/25/2 unit. That's just way too cost effective, especially when Zerg has no real way to counter it when harassing with Mutas. It's simply, "Oh I got hit with a Widow Mine. Minus one Muta I guess. Oh here come the marines/thor, time to run away while the Terran player is trading with me cost effectively every single time I try to harass with Mutas."
If you donate one muta per mine (which is send in first to activate a burrowed mine) you don't trade efficiently, but if you can open up the way to kill a lot of workers, it still can be worth it.
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest. So burrow at hatchery is too early.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
Actually now that I think of TvZ "mech" against Roach/Hydra/Viper.. It might be viable to skip tanks for just Hellbat/Thor/Widow Mine + either banshee or some other support.. Is it possible, that Blizzard managed to completly disable tank from both TvZ and TvP with the new "tankless mech"? lol.. That would be hilarisou.. :D
Just a short question regards widow mines and mutalisks. How many mutalisks does it take to shoot down a mine before it can shoot? Has anyone done some testing?
Since HotS i always go for immediatly overseer with speed while going mutalisks. It feels very worth it, i can drop changelings in positions where they really get in, furthermore i get relatively quick contaminate, which adds really well to the mutalisks. But in my opinion, if you do that and have a huge flock of mutas, mines should do nothing. I hope thats true, anyone did some testing?
Would be too ridiculous if a huge flock of mutas gets killed by 3 mines aka 225/75 cost
Regards zvt, i dont see any way besides going for some kind of midgame muta play. Due the way medivacs are now, you kinda need them to deal with drops. You cant invest a huge amount of static defense + have some ling/roach/bane at each expansion in midgame. Your army will be too weak. But its okay i really like it, especially with the new reg vs thor volleys. the only problem are the widow mines.
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest.
But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched?
You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest.
But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched?
You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
Burrow at hatch would be soooo cool. Roachmicro allins, burrowed banelings from the get-go, forcing MSCs to waste their energy on detection early. Defending ramps with 2banelings. So many potentially broken things (that could surely be balanced out), so much fun potential for early zerg play. Playstyles that are more than: "I guess he is well defended, time to drone and tech".
But I think the main problem is roaches vs Protoss. You take out the canon (or in gateway expands there is none) and then everything that stands between players with great micro skills and winning is the short MSC detection duration. (and those roaches are quite harder to kill than those 2-3 stray widow mines) But hell, nerf/remove regeneration of roaches into the ground without the burrow movement, see how this goes.
I'm a Protoss player an I agree with the muta change. I'm glad its not a direct buff in HP, Speed or Damage that would just make them harder to deal with but a buff that needs good decision making and control to capitalize on.
Blizzard needed to buff the muta anyway, with the way P and T air has changed.
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest.
But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched?
You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design.
Let's terran have their widow mine as we zergs have an easier and cheaper way to get mobile detection. We can also run in with a single ling as cannon fodder to see if the field is mined or not.
Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg. Players like Leenock show that it is possible to win games or at least deal a great amount of damage with early lings or roaches. In the past, July also went crazy from time to time and just teched to banes to bust a terran. While zerg has few tech openings, there always is the danger of a very early pool (a rush opening.) I think we zergs don't need the same options as the protoss or terrans.
I am willing to accept limitations to each race for the sake of racial diversity. That's not to say that I am right, I guess this is a matter of personal taste.
On December 14 2012 19:21 arcane1129 wrote: Terran "tiers" are not at all equivalent to zerg tiers. By your definition, starport would be tier 3. You consider starpart equivalent to hive?
It's more complicated because you have to consider the techlab, armory, and fusion core as well, and even then you can't make a direct comparison.
I don't consider starport comparable to hive (but admittedly I still brought the tier 2 comparison up). I consider the starport tier 3. Since the races are so diverse, one cannot directly compare the tiers, they just give a rough indication of the tech level of the unit within its race.
Fusion core would be tier 3.5
The terran can rush quicky through his tech tree but only if he forfeits the ability to mass units. It's understandable that the zerg teching is delayed to prevent too fast high-tech units which could be massed due to the production from larvae.
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest.
But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched?
You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design.
Let's terran have their widow mine as we zergs have an easier and cheaper way to get mobile detection. We can also run in with a single ling as cannon fodder to see if the field is mined or not.
Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg. Players like Leenock show that it is possible to win games or at least deal a great amount of damage with early lings or roaches. In the past, July also went crazy from time to time and just teched to banes to bust a terran. While zerg has few tech openings, there always is the danger of a very early pool (a rush opening.) I think we zergs don't need the same options as the protoss or terrans.
I am willing to accept limitations to each race for the sake of racial diversity. That's not to say that I am right, I guess this is a matter of personal taste.
We aggressive Zergs love to switch it up and stay on Lair tech for as long as we don't need siege weapons. It would be awesome, if there were ways to play an aggressive macro game, starting somewhere with hatchtech. Aggressive macrogames make for better games than allins or greedy turtleplay.
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest.
But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched?
You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design.
Let's terran have their widow mine as we zergs have an easier and cheaper way to get mobile detection. We can also run in with a single ling as cannon fodder to see if the field is mined or not.
Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg. Players like Leenock show that it is possible to win games or at least deal a great amount of damage with early lings or roaches. In the past, July also went crazy from time to time and just teched to banes to bust a terran. While zerg has few tech openings, there always is the danger of a very early pool (a rush opening.) I think we zergs don't need the same options as the protoss or terrans.
I am willing to accept limitations to each race for the sake of racial diversity. That's not to say that I am right, I guess this is a matter of personal taste.
We aggressive Zergs love to switch it up and stay on Lair tech for as long as we don't need siege weapons. It would be awesome, if there were ways to play an aggressive macro game, starting somewhere with hatchtech. Aggressive macrogames make for better games than allins or greedy turtleplay.
At least it would make for more watchable games.
I fully agree that even the zerg should designwise support a variety of swarm play styles. But how far can it be stretched? If we get too good options for hatch-level aggression, an early rush maybe will be the best option to outright win a game? I guess that bane and roach speed is on lair level to allow good defensive usage (considering the creep speed bonus) but only limited aggressiv usage (imagine either speedbanes or speedroaches on hatchery-level ...)
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest.
But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched?
You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design.
Hmm. I can see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure we benefit from asymmetry being enforced to the meta-level of some races being unable to open with econ, army or tech - at least not the degree of asymmetry there is right now.
Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg.
I think it's fine to have racial identity through particular strengths, but I don't think Zerg needs to be quite so tightly pigeonholed as 'the one that makes drones or does a roach/baneling bust'. Indeed, I think that's been quite bad for all races:
Once upon a time Terrans and Protoss were having a whale of a time coming up with different builds, and Zergs were mostly thrashing around trying not to die to them. I did a search from time to time during the first 18 months of WoL, and virtually all threads about ZvX were discussing the build X was doing and how to stop it. Surviving to the point where you got a decent chance to win was what playing Zerg was all about - I described it at the time as learning to break fists with your face.
After some patches and a lot of trial and error, things settled down. But now the game was a lot more boring for T/P. There were endless complaints about how Zergs just had to build a few queens and a couple of roaches to deflect any and all aggression. Most people failed to grasp that this was an inevitable consequence of zerg having so few options early on. If I can only do two easily scoutable things, and you know it and can plan accordingly, those two things have to be a lot stronger and more stable than if I could do ten things and you don't know which one I'm choosing.
EDIT: Also, think about how long Zergs tend to spend on hatchery tech compared to Protoss on gateway or Terran on barracks. Then look at the tech available at each Zerg tier (excluding damage/armour ups):
It's a bit bloated in the middle, isn't it? It's like, "You will be boring until lair, and then the world is your oyster! Oh, but you won't want to get lair quickly because nothing's useful in small numbers and you can't afford to mass anything on fewer than three bases. So you're gonna be boring for a lot of the time."
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest.
But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched?
You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design.
Let's terran have their widow mine as we zergs have an easier and cheaper way to get mobile detection. We can also run in with a single ling as cannon fodder to see if the field is mined or not.
Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg. Players like Leenock show that it is possible to win games or at least deal a great amount of damage with early lings or roaches. In the past, July also went crazy from time to time and just teched to banes to bust a terran. While zerg has few tech openings, there always is the danger of a very early pool (a rush opening.) I think we zergs don't need the same options as the protoss or terrans.
I am willing to accept limitations to each race for the sake of racial diversity. That's not to say that I am right, I guess this is a matter of personal taste.
We aggressive Zergs love to switch it up and stay on Lair tech for as long as we don't need siege weapons. It would be awesome, if there were ways to play an aggressive macro game, starting somewhere with hatchtech. Aggressive macrogames make for better games than allins or greedy turtleplay.
At least it would make for more watchable games.
I fully agree that even the zerg should designwise support a variety of swarm play styles. But how far can it be stretched? If we get too good options for hatch-level aggression, an early rush maybe will be the best option to outright win a game? I guess that bane and roach speed is on lair level to allow good defensive usage (considering the creep speed bonus) but only limited aggressiv usage (imagine either speedbanes or speedroaches on hatchery-level ...)
Yeah, but a strategy game allows for many subtle ways for such adcantages. Burrow at hatchtech might be something like that. Units that regenerate fast between combats (shields, reaper, original roaches) are really great invesstments, yet dont break the game by making rushes stronger. Costly(in the case of SC gasintense) units that are hard to attack (air, cloak). Units with no/low investment costs and good utility (like vipers on hivw tech). There are many options to prevent allinning to become overly powerful, yet make doing damage or forcing similar cost reactions possible. Just Zerg hardly has any of those, apart from defensive utility (queens) or some Okish Roach or baneling or speedling builds (mostly useful in ZvZ)
On December 14 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote: Actually now that I think of TvZ "mech" against Roach/Hydra/Viper.. It might be viable to skip tanks for just Hellbat/Thor/Widow Mine + either banshee or some other support.. Is it possible, that Blizzard managed to completly disable tank from both TvZ and TvP with the new "tankless mech"? lol.. That would be hilarisou.. :D
As your " " implies, factory units without tank is not mech because there is no zoning/containment play. But at the same time, the reason zoning is hard in wol is because tank lines are easily broken by lings and IT's eggs. Maybe the hellbat will give much more protection and allow tank play, who knows.
I tried to find the answer in the thread or on Liquipedia, but what is the point of the unburrowed range on the widow mine? What does it do when it isn't burrowed?
On December 14 2012 22:45 smidge wrote: I tried to find the answer in the thread or on Liquipedia, but what is the point of the unburrowed range on the widow mine? What does it do when it isn't burrowed?
I think WM's were attacked by default, but with the new settings if you don't focus fire them, they won't be your default target and your unmicroed units will most likely attack other terran units rather than the mine.
On December 14 2012 18:44 doggy wrote: Just a short question regards widow mines and mutalisks. How many mutalisks does it take to shoot down a mine before it can shoot? Has anyone done some testing?
Since HotS i always go for immediatly overseer with speed while going mutalisks. It feels very worth it, i can drop changelings in positions where they really get in, furthermore i get relatively quick contaminate, which adds really well to the mutalisks. But in my opinion, if you do that and have a huge flock of mutas, mines should do nothing. I hope thats true, anyone did some testing?
Would be too ridiculous if a huge flock of mutas gets killed by 3 mines aka 225/75 cost
Regards zvt, i dont see any way besides going for some kind of midgame muta play. Due the way medivacs are now, you kinda need them to deal with drops. You cant invest a huge amount of static defense + have some ling/roach/bane at each expansion in midgame. Your army will be too weak. But its okay i really like it, especially with the new reg vs thor volleys. the only problem are the widow mines.
I don't mind the widow mine doing so much damage. It raises the skill level needed to play so it's totally fine. Also, why not research overlord speed and send an overlord in to tank the widow mine?
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest.
But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched?
You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design.
Hmm. I can see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure we benefit from asymmetry being enforced to the meta-level of some races being unable to open with econ, army or tech - at least not the degree of asymmetry there is right now.
Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg.
I think it's fine to have racial identity through particular strengths, but I don't think Zerg needs to be quite so tightly pigeonholed as 'the one that makes drones or does a roach/baneling bust'. Indeed, I think that's been quite bad for all races:
Once upon a time Terrans and Protoss were having a whale of a time coming up with different builds, and Zergs were mostly thrashing around trying not to die to them. I did a search from time to time during the first 18 months of WoL, and virtually all threads about ZvX were discussing the build X was doing and how to stop it. Surviving to the point where you got a decent chance to win was what playing Zerg was all about - I described it at the time as learning to break fists with your face.
After some patches and a lot of trial and error, things settled down. But now the game was a lot more boring for T/P. There were endless complaints about how Zergs just had to build a few queens and a couple of roaches to deflect any and all aggression. Most people failed to grasp that this was an inevitable consequence of zerg having so few options early on. If I can only do two easily scoutable things, and you know it and can plan accordingly, those two things have to be a lot stronger and more stable than if I could do ten things and you don't know which one I'm choosing.
EDIT: Also, think about how long Zergs tend to spend on hatchery tech compared to Protoss on gateway or Terran on barracks. Then look at the tech available at each Zerg tier (excluding damage/armour ups):
It's a bit bloated in the middle, isn't it? It's like, "You will be boring until lair, and then the world is your oyster! Oh, but you won't want to get lair quickly because nothing's useful in small numbers and you can't afford to mass anything on fewer than three bases. So you're gonna be boring for a lot of the time."
I agree very much with your analysis. For quite some time, terrans invented many timings which the zerg had to learn to deflect. I also think that lair tech is too good. You still get vipers, ultras, cracklings and broods at tier 3. Not bad, but to afford those units one needs many bases which need to be defended.
On the other hand, I like that Blizzard tries to keep the races different. Maybe it will be actually viable for a Hots protoss to go straight to air with virtually no ground units. Maybe zerg is doomed to always be the most boring race overall: While one can pressure with swarm hosts and harass with mutas, it's mostly 4sdddddd (if you have hatcheries on '4'.) Another reason is that creep spread takes time, this rewards longer games for the zerg because he can cover large parts of the map with creep.
The greatest issue I see is the watchability. I can accept a quite passive early game as a player, but the viewers want to see action from the get-go. This could somewhat be compensated if the other player harasses the zerg. Then we get at least some action early on. Of course if he also just choose to turtlemacro, we need really competent casters to keep us awake while watching the game.
On December 14 2012 18:44 doggy wrote: Just a short question regards widow mines and mutalisks. How many mutalisks does it take to shoot down a mine before it can shoot? Has anyone done some testing?
Since HotS i always go for immediatly overseer with speed while going mutalisks. It feels very worth it, i can drop changelings in positions where they really get in, furthermore i get relatively quick contaminate, which adds really well to the mutalisks. But in my opinion, if you do that and have a huge flock of mutas, mines should do nothing. I hope thats true, anyone did some testing?
Would be too ridiculous if a huge flock of mutas gets killed by 3 mines aka 225/75 cost
Regards zvt, i dont see any way besides going for some kind of midgame muta play. Due the way medivacs are now, you kinda need them to deal with drops. You cant invest a huge amount of static defense + have some ling/roach/bane at each expansion in midgame. Your army will be too weak. But its okay i really like it, especially with the new reg vs thor volleys. the only problem are the widow mines.
I don't mind the widow mine doing so much damage. It raises the skill level needed to play so it's totally fine. Also, why not research overlord speed and send an overlord in to tank the widow mine?
Because you can turn the auto-attack off on the Widow Mine...
On December 14 2012 18:44 doggy wrote: Just a short question regards widow mines and mutalisks. How many mutalisks does it take to shoot down a mine before it can shoot? Has anyone done some testing?
Since HotS i always go for immediatly overseer with speed while going mutalisks. It feels very worth it, i can drop changelings in positions where they really get in, furthermore i get relatively quick contaminate, which adds really well to the mutalisks. But in my opinion, if you do that and have a huge flock of mutas, mines should do nothing. I hope thats true, anyone did some testing?
Would be too ridiculous if a huge flock of mutas gets killed by 3 mines aka 225/75 cost
Regards zvt, i dont see any way besides going for some kind of midgame muta play. Due the way medivacs are now, you kinda need them to deal with drops. You cant invest a huge amount of static defense + have some ling/roach/bane at each expansion in midgame. Your army will be too weak. But its okay i really like it, especially with the new reg vs thor volleys. the only problem are the widow mines.
I don't mind the widow mine doing so much damage. It raises the skill level needed to play so it's totally fine. Also, why not research overlord speed and send an overlord in to tank the widow mine?
Because you can turn the auto-attack off on the Widow Mine...
No you can't . You could for a while but right now you can't do anything but burrow/unburrow..
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest.
But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched?
You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
No you don't because with widow mine you can allways send out single units to trigger them. That doesn't work with burrowed banelings.
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest.
But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched?
You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design.
Hmm. I can see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure we benefit from asymmetry being enforced to the meta-level of some races being unable to open with econ, army or tech - at least not the degree of asymmetry there is right now.
Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg.
I think it's fine to have racial identity through particular strengths, but I don't think Zerg needs to be quite so tightly pigeonholed as 'the one that makes drones or does a roach/baneling bust'. Indeed, I think that's been quite bad for all races:
Once upon a time Terrans and Protoss were having a whale of a time coming up with different builds, and Zergs were mostly thrashing around trying not to die to them. I did a search from time to time during the first 18 months of WoL, and virtually all threads about ZvX were discussing the build X was doing and how to stop it. Surviving to the point where you got a decent chance to win was what playing Zerg was all about - I described it at the time as learning to break fists with your face.
After some patches and a lot of trial and error, things settled down. But now the game was a lot more boring for T/P. There were endless complaints about how Zergs just had to build a few queens and a couple of roaches to deflect any and all aggression. Most people failed to grasp that this was an inevitable consequence of zerg having so few options early on. If I can only do two easily scoutable things, and you know it and can plan accordingly, those two things have to be a lot stronger and more stable than if I could do ten things and you don't know which one I'm choosing.
EDIT: Also, think about how long Zergs tend to spend on hatchery tech compared to Protoss on gateway or Terran on barracks. Then look at the tech available at each Zerg tier (excluding damage/armour ups):
It's a bit bloated in the middle, isn't it? It's like, "You will be boring until lair, and then the world is your oyster! Oh, but you won't want to get lair quickly because nothing's useful in small numbers and you can't afford to mass anything on fewer than three bases. So you're gonna be boring for a lot of the time."
I agree very much with your analysis. For quite some time, terrans invented many timings which the zerg had to learn to deflect. I also think that lair tech is too good. You still get vipers, ultras, cracklings and broods at tier 3. Not bad, but to afford those units one needs many bases which need to be defended.
On the other hand, I like that Blizzard tries to keep the races different. Maybe it will be actually viable for a Hots protoss to go straight to air with virtually no ground units. Maybe zerg is doomed to always be the most boring race overall: While one can pressure with swarm hosts and harass with mutas, it's mostly 4sdddddd (if you have hatcheries on '4'.) Another reason is that creep spread takes time, this rewards longer games for the zerg because he can cover large parts of the map with creep.
The greatest issue I see is the watchability. I can accept a quite passive early game as a player, but the viewers want to see action from the get-go. This could somewhat be compensated if the other player harasses the zerg. Then we get at least some action early on. Of course if he also just choose to turtlemacro, we need really competent casters to keep us awake while watching the game.
Well, your example of creep spread is exactly the problem in zerg play. Creep spread builds (builds with 4+) queens are the only option. It's not like you could invest a similar amount of ressources into something else instead of creep (like some aggressive units etc.) and get to a similarily playable aituation. Zergs these days have gotten such creep believers, when in fact in the first half year or year, people tried a lot of other investments. It just turned out that there is nothing compareable to injecting and creeping. It's not like Zerg must immidiatly build 1queen per base. It just turned out as the only viable option if you dont want to allin.
On December 14 2012 23:23 Ramiz1989 wrote: Because you can turn the auto-attack off on the Widow Mine...
Are you sure? I thought that was removed since Patch #6 when widow mines became less suicidal.
He's wrong .
I am sorry if I said anything wrong, maybe they have changed it in patch #8, but I got beta like two weeks before that patch and I am 100% positive that you could do that, because my friend is playing Terran and he was stating how it feels imba with auto-cast off and he had showed it to me. I didn't test it after the patch #8, it may be the hidden nerf.
If they did that, I actually like it, because you can sacrifice Overlords to counter Mines and Mutalisks are able to harass again.
On December 14 2012 08:10 Umpteen wrote: Between you and me, I have my fingers crossed for one last seismic change:
Burrow moved to Hatchery / Evo Chamber.
If Terran can have reusable super-banelings with burrow after barracks/factory, I don't see why I shouldn't have plain old burrowed banelings after spawning pool/research.
You really should try to think more critically when you make suggestions — "another race has it so I don't see why my race can't have it" isn't a valid reasoning in asymmetric design. By your reasoning Terran should also have the ability to conveniently insta-remax from their Command Center.
I'm not saying your suggestion itself is fundamentally bad, but that your thinking is a bit blind-sided. If you think burrow deserves to be a T1 tech then you need to provide something more insightful other than "he has something I don't".
Sorry, should have elaborated. Burrow was moved to Lair because of banelings. Clearly that move is no longer justified, because Terrans get the same kind of capability much earlier. Hence burrow could and should be returned to hatch tech. It's not "he has something I don't", it's "he has something that proves I could have back what was taken off me."
It's a bit more complicated I think. The terran gets mobile detection with the orbital. I think it would be unfair to force the terran to waste all energy on scans just because you showed him the baneling nest.
But he has to do it now when another Terran shows him a factory, because of widow mines. Or rather, he does if he wants to be aggressive, which is the point of a tech opening: invest in tech that forces your opponent to respond OR play more passively. Protoss and Terran both have tech openings; this would give Zerg one too.
Burrow at evo means that you must build an evo. With spores avaiable at pool now, I often delay my evo chambers to quite some time after lair.
...so? By all means continue to do so - you just won't have burrow. That doesn't mean someone else might not want to rush burrow with a different build.
The terran factory is considered tier 2. Zerg has burrow at tier 2 (lair) too.
Are there good, solid Terran builds that entail a fast factory, pretty much straight after barracks? Are there good, solid Zerg builds that entail a fast lair, straight after spawning pool? When was the last time you saw the first hellions pop out after lair was done? How about after lair and burrow were researched?
You can call them both Tier 2 if you like, but that doesn't mean much. The reality is, a terran can follow a solid, viable build and have burrowed widow mines out long before a solid, viable Zerg build can do the same. And since banelings were the only reason burrow was moved to lair in the first place, why not move it back now that better burrowed banelings aren't breaking the matchups by arriving early on?
For the sake of race diversity, I can accept that zergs don't have as many tech openings as other races. I would say that an argument like "because race X can do it, race Y should have it, too" is flawed because local imbalance is a goal of Starcraft game design.
Let's terran have their widow mine as we zergs have an easier and cheaper way to get mobile detection. We can also run in with a single ling as cannon fodder to see if the field is mined or not.
Indeed, we greedy zergs like to stay at tier 1 a long time to get out more drones. If I wouldn't be able to accept that, I wouldn't play as zerg. Players like Leenock show that it is possible to win games or at least deal a great amount of damage with early lings or roaches. In the past, July also went crazy from time to time and just teched to banes to bust a terran. While zerg has few tech openings, there always is the danger of a very early pool (a rush opening.) I think we zergs don't need the same options as the protoss or terrans.
I am willing to accept limitations to each race for the sake of racial diversity. That's not to say that I am right, I guess this is a matter of personal taste.
We aggressive Zergs love to switch it up and stay on Lair tech for as long as we don't need siege weapons. It would be awesome, if there were ways to play an aggressive macro game, starting somewhere with hatchtech. Aggressive macrogames make for better games than allins or greedy turtleplay.
At least it would make for more watchable games.
I fully agree that even the zerg should designwise support a variety of swarm play styles. But how far can it be stretched? If we get too good options for hatch-level aggression, an early rush maybe will be the best option to outright win a game? I guess that bane and roach speed is on lair level to allow good defensive usage (considering the creep speed bonus) but only limited aggressiv usage (imagine either speedbanes or speedroaches on hatchery-level ...)
Yeah, but a strategy game allows for many subtle ways for such adcantages. Burrow at hatchtech might be something like that. Units that regenerate fast between combats (shields, reaper, original roaches) are really great invesstments, yet dont break the game by making rushes stronger. Costly(in the case of SC gasintense) units that are hard to attack (air, cloak). Units with no/low investment costs and good utility (like vipers on hivw tech). There are many options to prevent allinning to become overly powerful, yet make doing damage or forcing similar cost reactions possible. Just Zerg hardly has any of those, apart from defensive utility (queens) or some Okish Roach or baneling or speedling builds (mostly useful in ZvZ)
With Hots, the game already gets much more complex. Reapers have passive regeneration at a high rate, mutas at a low rate, roaches (as in Wol) at a very high rate but only when burrowed ... medivacs get a speedboost with cooldown and so on. SC2 is already more complex regarding bonus damage, because the damage bonus or malus is no longer a fixed percentage as in SC1. SC2 is easier to balance, but (letting the UI aside) harder to learn. I think it is okay to tolerate some issues if it helps to keep the complexity at a reasonable level.
On December 14 2012 22:45 smidge wrote: I tried to find the answer in the thread or on Liquipedia, but what is the point of the unburrowed range on the widow mine? What does it do when it isn't burrowed?
I think WM's were attacked by default, but with the new settings if you don't focus fire them, they won't be your default target and your unmicroed units will most likely attack other terran units rather than the mine.
Oh okay, thanks. I mistook attack priority for attack range. Makes a lot more sense now
On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote: All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it.
Have you ever even used mutas? When you're done harassing with mutas, you click them to a safe point and turn your attention to macro as they travel while keeping an eye on the minimap. Mutas ball heavily as they travel and they move much faster than an overseer. Simply moving your mutas around the map is a big risk, and that's not even factoring in the other things I mentioned in my previous post that people like you apparently ignore.
Well then I guess Zergs who use mutas will have to pay more attention to them?
Also, if you A move a clustered swarm of mutas they kill 1 or two mines before the mines even go off... Not to mention now mines will 90% likely die after they've gone off, it will kill one muta and then your mutas are weakened for what? 40 seconds while the splash damage melts away?
Have you even tested mines in the map tester at all?
Mutas are better than ever in a way the player can control, stop going crazy over something that's not been seen at the apex pro level. Instead be excited about how pros will learn HOW to use mutas.
Changes seem interesting and worth trying. My gripe is that they keep adding abilities to try and balance things when simple is often better. I actually do not like the muta change at all. Stuff like this makes observing the game even more difficult unless you have a very intimate understanding. My Dad enjoyed watching BW matches but finds SC2 confusing with all the abilities. I think making the game simpler means it'll be easier to tweak later and definitely more watchable for the casual observer.
Im beginning to think protoss needs some sort of interesting harass unit that isn't straight up, like a DT or completely limited in its ability to help in the main fight without using abilities (like the oracle)... Something like the predator (but a protoss version) from the WoL campaign or something.
On December 14 2012 18:44 doggy wrote: Just a short question regards widow mines and mutalisks. How many mutalisks does it take to shoot down a mine before it can shoot? Has anyone done some testing?
Since HotS i always go for immediatly overseer with speed while going mutalisks. It feels very worth it, i can drop changelings in positions where they really get in, furthermore i get relatively quick contaminate, which adds really well to the mutalisks. But in my opinion, if you do that and have a huge flock of mutas, mines should do nothing. I hope thats true, anyone did some testing?
Would be too ridiculous if a huge flock of mutas gets killed by 3 mines aka 225/75 cost
Regards zvt, i dont see any way besides going for some kind of midgame muta play. Due the way medivacs are now, you kinda need them to deal with drops. You cant invest a huge amount of static defense + have some ling/roach/bane at each expansion in midgame. Your army will be too weak. But its okay i really like it, especially with the new reg vs thor volleys. the only problem are the widow mines.
I don't mind the widow mine doing so much damage. It raises the skill level needed to play so it's totally fine. Also, why not research overlord speed and send an overlord in to tank the widow mine?
Because letting overlords be the limiting factor in how fast you can harass will seriously reduce Mutas' effectiveness. Also because with just a few mines you can make that completely impractical, making entire areas unattackable for a very small cost.
I don't think Muta harassment is 100% impossible, just that it is way too weak and random. Yes, Mutas might work against some builds that people use in the beta (reaper, mine, hellbat... people make no anti-air whatsoever these days). But the old bio-mech or bio builds with the addition of mines are going to make Mutas a losing tech path.
I can't emphasize enough how much I dislike widow mines. People will think they're new, fun and exciting for a while but after a couple months I think we'll all regret the impact it has on the game. As a player, the fact that it forces you to stay so passive for so long in ZvT removes all fun from the matchup. It's incredibly tedious having to take blow after blow without the ability to punish the opponent when he misses. To me Mines are doomed to be a failed unit, that don't achieve what they're supposed to in TvP and will break TvZ.
On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote: All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it.
Have you ever even used mutas? When you're done harassing with mutas, you click them to a safe point and turn your attention to macro as they travel while keeping an eye on the minimap. Mutas ball heavily as they travel and they move much faster than an overseer. Simply moving your mutas around the map is a big risk, and that's not even factoring in the other things I mentioned in my previous post that people like you apparently ignore.
Well then I guess Zergs who use mutas will have to pay more attention to them?
Also, if you A move a clustered swarm of mutas they kill 1 or two mines before the mines even go off... Not to mention now mines will 90% likely die after they've gone off, it will kill one muta and then your mutas are weakened for what? 40 seconds while the splash damage melts away?
Have you even tested mines in the map tester at all?
Mutas are better than ever in a way the player can control, stop going crazy over something that's not been seen at the apex pro level. Instead be excited about how pros will learn HOW to use mutas.
Do you get the irony of saying "just test it" and writing something that can be easily disproved... by testing it? How about you apply your advice to yourself.
On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote: All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it.
Have you ever even used mutas? When you're done harassing with mutas, you click them to a safe point and turn your attention to macro as they travel while keeping an eye on the minimap. Mutas ball heavily as they travel and they move much faster than an overseer. Simply moving your mutas around the map is a big risk, and that's not even factoring in the other things I mentioned in my previous post that people like you apparently ignore.
Well then I guess Zergs who use mutas will have to pay more attention to them?
Also, if you A move a clustered swarm of mutas they kill 1 or two mines before the mines even go off... Not to mention now mines will 90% likely die after they've gone off, it will kill one muta and then your mutas are weakened for what? 40 seconds while the splash damage melts away?
Have you even tested mines in the map tester at all?
Mutas are better than ever in a way the player can control, stop going crazy over something that's not been seen at the apex pro level. Instead be excited about how pros will learn HOW to use mutas.
Do you get the irony of saying "just test it" and writing something that can be easily disproved... by testing it? How about you apply your advice to yourself.
I have... unless somehow it's changed from Sunday
Do tell which part has been changed, I tested widow mine sniping/dragging quite strenuously. For like 5 hours. T.T
i personally feel like the reapers need to do more dmg vs structures again. also i think widow mines need a faster cool down, and oracle needs more armor.
As a protoss player I really do not like the muta regen. Mutas are such a frustrating strategy to deal with already. You cannot attack or the mutas will counter and you lose. Protoss players need those moments when you really deal some damage to the mutas, a good storm or a solid blink and it gives you a window to attack without fearing counter attack. With the regen the window is completely gone and toss will have to turtle for soooo long against mutas. I guess pheonix are the only option now....
On December 15 2012 04:12 RinconH wrote: I too am against the muta regen (even though I play all races).
Why make an annoying unit even more annoying?
If they want to make them more powerful, do something that makes them more fun to use and more effective (moving shot, faster acceleration etc).
Moving shot is almost possible with proper micro. The reason to make this annoying unit even more annoying is because terrans and protoss got better anti-air measures compared to Wol. Mutas need to be stronger to keep harassing a viable option. With the regeneration, mutas should now be useful over quite some time instead of needing to be used within a small timing window.
On December 15 2012 03:59 FreedomMurder wrote: As a protoss player I really do not like the muta regen. Mutas are such a frustrating strategy to deal with already. You cannot attack or the mutas will counter and you lose. Protoss players need those moments when you really deal some damage to the mutas, a good storm or a solid blink and it gives you a window to attack without fearing counter attack. With the regen the window is completely gone and toss will have to turtle for soooo long against mutas. I guess pheonix are the only option now....
That's why phoniex were given buffs to compensate?
Seriously, thanks to oracles, phoniex is a viable comp. Mid-early game phoneix/oracle can stand toe to toe with muta/speedlings, thanks to time warp slowing the lings, slowing down their ability to reinforce the mutas as they attack the wall-in while phoneixes deal with the mutas and oracles shred the lings
On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote: All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it.
Have you ever even used mutas? When you're done harassing with mutas, you click them to a safe point and turn your attention to macro as they travel while keeping an eye on the minimap. Mutas ball heavily as they travel and they move much faster than an overseer. Simply moving your mutas around the map is a big risk, and that's not even factoring in the other things I mentioned in my previous post that people like you apparently ignore.
Well then I guess Zergs who use mutas will have to pay more attention to them?
Also, if you A move a clustered swarm of mutas they kill 1 or two mines before the mines even go off... Not to mention now mines will 90% likely die after they've gone off, it will kill one muta and then your mutas are weakened for what? 40 seconds while the splash damage melts away?
Have you even tested mines in the map tester at all?
Mutas are better than ever in a way the player can control, stop going crazy over something that's not been seen at the apex pro level. Instead be excited about how pros will learn HOW to use mutas.
Do you get the irony of saying "just test it" and writing something that can be easily disproved... by testing it? How about you apply your advice to yourself.
I have... unless somehow it's changed from Sunday
Do tell which part has been changed, I tested widow mine sniping/dragging quite strenuously. For like 5 hours. T.T
Well... I didn't test it for 5 hours, I'll admit to that :p
I'll try to get the exact numbers this evening if I have the time. But from what I tested even with a big number of mutas you can barely kill one mine before they shoot (and only if you clump them; a-moving won't work... So you better be sure it's going to work if you're ever going to try that) . And that's already with more than the initial number of mutas people usually attack with.
On December 15 2012 03:59 FreedomMurder wrote: As a protoss player I really do not like the muta regen. Mutas are such a frustrating strategy to deal with already. You cannot attack or the mutas will counter and you lose. Protoss players need those moments when you really deal some damage to the mutas, a good storm or a solid blink and it gives you a window to attack without fearing counter attack. With the regen the window is completely gone and toss will have to turtle for soooo long against mutas. I guess pheonix are the only option now....
That's why phoniex were given buffs to compensate?
Seriously, thanks to oracles, phoniex is a viable comp. Mid-early game phoneix/oracle can stand toe to toe with muta/speedlings, thanks to time warp slowing the lings, slowing down their ability to reinforce the mutas as they attack the wall-in while phoneixes deal with the mutas and oracles shred the lings
I never said pheonix weren't good enough to deal with mass muta. They are great with the extended range. My problem is say I open up robo or twilight. What do i do now? I turtle the whole game because there will never be an opening for me to attack even if i outplay the muta player and deal a ton of damage to his mutas. He will just fly to the corner of the map and his mutas will regen quite quickly, and then he will have the ability to counter attack again.
I think the problem is the widow mine hitting air and the strength of missile turrets. Terran is probably to strong against mutas so blizzard tried to counteract this. As protoss, unless you open stargate you have no chance to be aggressive. The muta regen should atleast be an upgrade that requires something other than a spire....
On December 15 2012 03:59 FreedomMurder wrote: As a protoss player I really do not like the muta regen. Mutas are such a frustrating strategy to deal with already. You cannot attack or the mutas will counter and you lose. Protoss players need those moments when you really deal some damage to the mutas, a good storm or a solid blink and it gives you a window to attack without fearing counter attack. With the regen the window is completely gone and toss will have to turtle for soooo long against mutas. I guess pheonix are the only option now....
That's why phoniex were given buffs to compensate?
Seriously, thanks to oracles, phoniex is a viable comp. Mid-early game phoneix/oracle can stand toe to toe with muta/speedlings, thanks to time warp slowing the lings, slowing down their ability to reinforce the mutas as they attack the wall-in while phoneixes deal with the mutas and oracles shred the lings
I never said pheonix weren't good enough to deal with mass muta. They are great with the extended range. My problem is say I open up robo or twilight. What do i do now? I turtle the whole game because there will never be an opening for me to attack even if i outplay the muta player and deal a ton of damage to his mutas. He will just fly to the corner of the map and his mutas will regen quite quickly, and then he will have the ability to counter attack again.
I think the problem is the widow mine hitting air and the strength of missile turrets. Terran is probably to strong against mutas so blizzard tried to counteract this. As protoss, unless you open stargate you have no chance to be aggressive. The muta regen should atleast be an upgrade that requires something other than a spire....
Let's say I open double upgrade speedlings with zerg. 4gate+1/7gate+1/Immortal-Sentry... and I'm dead. Let's say I open 2base mutalisk vs Protoss. Double Stargate and I'm dead.
It's not like Protoss is the only race that is suffering BO-losses. Use your new strength - best scouting in the game through hallucination - to circumvent BO-losses. Or if you wanna play blind, go blink or air.
Protoss can counter mutas with blink/templar/archon, pre-mutalisk rushes or stargate. I don't see that changing through a little regeneration bonus. But yeah, blind 2-3 base robo builds will (still) lose to mutalisks. Protoss biggest problem with mutas in WoL was scouting them. With free hallucinations, Ps really should not get caught offguard, unless a Zerg does extremly well hiding his spire AND making it look like he hasn't stored ~1000gas.
On December 15 2012 03:59 FreedomMurder wrote: As a protoss player I really do not like the muta regen. Mutas are such a frustrating strategy to deal with already. You cannot attack or the mutas will counter and you lose. Protoss players need those moments when you really deal some damage to the mutas, a good storm or a solid blink and it gives you a window to attack without fearing counter attack. With the regen the window is completely gone and toss will have to turtle for soooo long against mutas. I guess pheonix are the only option now....
That's why phoniex were given buffs to compensate?
Seriously, thanks to oracles, phoniex is a viable comp. Mid-early game phoneix/oracle can stand toe to toe with muta/speedlings, thanks to time warp slowing the lings, slowing down their ability to reinforce the mutas as they attack the wall-in while phoneixes deal with the mutas and oracles shred the lings
I never said pheonix weren't good enough to deal with mass muta. They are great with the extended range. My problem is say I open up robo or twilight. What do i do now? I turtle the whole game because there will never be an opening for me to attack even if i outplay the muta player and deal a ton of damage to his mutas. He will just fly to the corner of the map and his mutas will regen quite quickly, and then he will have the ability to counter attack again.
I think the problem is the widow mine hitting air and the strength of missile turrets. Terran is probably to strong against mutas so blizzard tried to counteract this. As protoss, unless you open stargate you have no chance to be aggressive. The muta regen should atleast be an upgrade that requires something other than a spire....
Let's say I open double upgrade speedlings with zerg. 4gate+1/7gate+1/Immortal-Sentry... and I'm dead. Let's say I open 2base mutalisk vs Protoss. Double Stargate and I'm dead.
It's not like Protoss is the only race that is suffering BO-losses. Use your new strength - best scouting in the game through hallucination - to circumvent BO-losses. Or if you wanna play blind, go blink or air.
Protoss can counter mutas with blink/templar/archon, pre-mutalisk rushes or stargate. I don't see that changing through a little regeneration bonus. But yeah, blind 2-3 base robo builds will (still) lose to mutalisks. Protoss biggest problem with mutas in WoL was scouting them. With free hallucinations, Ps really should not get caught offguard, unless a Zerg does extremly well hiding his spire AND making it look like he hasn't stored ~1000gas.
I think you are misreading what I am trying to say. I think that you are right, with the new scouting toss will be better able to deal with mutalisks. The problem I see is that this will lead to boring stale games where the protoss is forced to turtle really hard for an extreme amount of time just because now the zerg can ALWAYS counter attack. The timing window to kill zerg when you effectively dealt with the mutas is kind of gone.
On December 15 2012 03:59 FreedomMurder wrote: As a protoss player I really do not like the muta regen. Mutas are such a frustrating strategy to deal with already. You cannot attack or the mutas will counter and you lose. Protoss players need those moments when you really deal some damage to the mutas, a good storm or a solid blink and it gives you a window to attack without fearing counter attack. With the regen the window is completely gone and toss will have to turtle for soooo long against mutas. I guess pheonix are the only option now....
That's why phoniex were given buffs to compensate?
Seriously, thanks to oracles, phoniex is a viable comp. Mid-early game phoneix/oracle can stand toe to toe with muta/speedlings, thanks to time warp slowing the lings, slowing down their ability to reinforce the mutas as they attack the wall-in while phoneixes deal with the mutas and oracles shred the lings
I never said pheonix weren't good enough to deal with mass muta. They are great with the extended range. My problem is say I open up robo or twilight. What do i do now? I turtle the whole game because there will never be an opening for me to attack even if i outplay the muta player and deal a ton of damage to his mutas. He will just fly to the corner of the map and his mutas will regen quite quickly, and then he will have the ability to counter attack again.
I think the problem is the widow mine hitting air and the strength of missile turrets. Terran is probably to strong against mutas so blizzard tried to counteract this. As protoss, unless you open stargate you have no chance to be aggressive. The muta regen should atleast be an upgrade that requires something other than a spire....
Let's say I open double upgrade speedlings with zerg. 4gate+1/7gate+1/Immortal-Sentry... and I'm dead. Let's say I open 2base mutalisk vs Protoss. Double Stargate and I'm dead.
It's not like Protoss is the only race that is suffering BO-losses. Use your new strength - best scouting in the game through hallucination - to circumvent BO-losses. Or if you wanna play blind, go blink or air.
Protoss can counter mutas with blink/templar/archon, pre-mutalisk rushes or stargate. I don't see that changing through a little regeneration bonus. But yeah, blind 2-3 base robo builds will (still) lose to mutalisks. Protoss biggest problem with mutas in WoL was scouting them. With free hallucinations, Ps really should not get caught offguard, unless a Zerg does extremly well hiding his spire AND making it look like he hasn't stored ~1000gas.
I really hope that they make the medivac boosters drain energy. That way the terran would have to use it strategically and it would allow toss to feedback the medivacs and stop it from escaping. Currently toss has no real way to prevent drops
On December 15 2012 03:59 FreedomMurder wrote: As a protoss player I really do not like the muta regen. Mutas are such a frustrating strategy to deal with already. You cannot attack or the mutas will counter and you lose. Protoss players need those moments when you really deal some damage to the mutas, a good storm or a solid blink and it gives you a window to attack without fearing counter attack. With the regen the window is completely gone and toss will have to turtle for soooo long against mutas. I guess pheonix are the only option now....
That's why phoniex were given buffs to compensate?
Seriously, thanks to oracles, phoniex is a viable comp. Mid-early game phoneix/oracle can stand toe to toe with muta/speedlings, thanks to time warp slowing the lings, slowing down their ability to reinforce the mutas as they attack the wall-in while phoneixes deal with the mutas and oracles shred the lings
I never said pheonix weren't good enough to deal with mass muta. They are great with the extended range. My problem is say I open up robo or twilight. What do i do now? I turtle the whole game because there will never be an opening for me to attack even if i outplay the muta player and deal a ton of damage to his mutas. He will just fly to the corner of the map and his mutas will regen quite quickly, and then he will have the ability to counter attack again.
I think the problem is the widow mine hitting air and the strength of missile turrets. Terran is probably to strong against mutas so blizzard tried to counteract this. As protoss, unless you open stargate you have no chance to be aggressive. The muta regen should atleast be an upgrade that requires something other than a spire....
Let's say I open double upgrade speedlings with zerg. 4gate+1/7gate+1/Immortal-Sentry... and I'm dead. Let's say I open 2base mutalisk vs Protoss. Double Stargate and I'm dead.
It's not like Protoss is the only race that is suffering BO-losses. Use your new strength - best scouting in the game through hallucination - to circumvent BO-losses. Or if you wanna play blind, go blink or air.
Protoss can counter mutas with blink/templar/archon, pre-mutalisk rushes or stargate. I don't see that changing through a little regeneration bonus. But yeah, blind 2-3 base robo builds will (still) lose to mutalisks. Protoss biggest problem with mutas in WoL was scouting them. With free hallucinations, Ps really should not get caught offguard, unless a Zerg does extremly well hiding his spire AND making it look like he hasn't stored ~1000gas.
I think you are misreading what I am trying to say. I think that you are right, with the new scouting toss will be better able to deal with mutalisks. The problem I see is that this will lead to boring stale games where the protoss is forced to turtle really hard for an extreme amount of time just because now the zerg can ALWAYS counter attack. The timing window to kill zerg when you effectively dealt with the mutas is kind of gone.
Well, without stargate yes, Protoss will have to turtle hard. But that's the implication of an extremly harass heavy style of the opponent against a very immobile style. I mean, if you decide to go for a rather slow (Protoss ground) army, your weakness is mobility (and even that is not entirely true, due to blink/warp-in and in HotS MSC Recall and better DT options).
But yeah, I completly agree. Mutas vs Protoss hasn't made a lot of good games in WoL. But well, ZvP hasn't made a lot of good games, simply because of how little aggressive potential is around, if you don't allin. So I think we should be glad about Oracles, better Phoenix/mutalisk/Void Ray/DT and prebroodlord siege options. If something really proves to be imbalanced/boring, I'd say there is still time until end of 2013 to balance rather heavily.
On December 15 2012 06:34 Jalued wrote: I really hope that they make the medivac boosters drain energy. That way the terran would have to use it strategically and it would allow toss to feedback the medivacs and stop it from escaping. Currently toss has no real way to prevent drops
Correction: the way you currently move your army around on 1 hotkey is not sufficient for dealing with drops. Spread your units out smartly, keep stalkers on the edge, have obs around to spot them, etc. The only thing this really changes is you can punish bad protoss players that have their army on 1 hotkey running around, and you can save some of your units/medivacs when stalkers close in on them.
God! It's so annoying to read about how zerg seem to think they don't have tech options like terran and toss to motivate burrow at hatch tech... I'm fine with burrow at hatch, that's how it's been in the past. Just increase the upgrade back to 100 gas and it should be reasonable. Maybe.
My issue though is that zergs here think that they don't have any options now and that they should be able to just get away with extremely low gas costs and still be able to put pressure on, lika that was true for terran and toss. It isn't! Tech openings are heavy investments in gas. Always. A few examples in pure gas cost:
None of the above ways to tech even consider the cost of gas units you need to defend yourself (mainly for toss) or the sacrifice in Eco etc which is present for ALL races when you tech. WoL beta and early days was full of early zerg pressure and tech. Had to be balanced of due to inject but it was still present. I still face early muta in the masters which is tricksy as he'll since it throws you off completely. Reason why so few utilize early zerg pressure is because it's harder to pull off than to just play standard not because the options are nay!
People seem stuck in "how things work" instead of just thinking more holistically.
On December 15 2012 10:56 Kyuki wrote: God! It's so annoying to read about how zerg seem to think they don't have tech options like terran and toss to motivate burrow at hatch tech... I'm fine with burrow at hatch, that's how it's been in the past. Just increase the upgrade back to 100 gas and it should be reasonable. Maybe.
On December 15 2012 05:36 sagefreke wrote: Why is it mostly Protoss complaining about the Muta buff? Mutas were already figured out by Toss in WoL and Phoenix counter Mutas now more than ever.
Let me try and explain it this way.
Mutas versus Protoss force turtling and passive play for a time period far longer than anything else in the game. You can't move out or you could lose your whole main or all of your probes to a backstab. What used to be the case was that if you managed to blink a pack of Stalkers under the Muta flock, or hit them with a Storm, you might not kill a lot because they can run away, but at least you get them low and they have to back off for awhile. You could use that time to expand, tech up, add infrastructure, and so forth.
However, what Muta healing has done is taken away that buffer time - Mutas can take a hit, back off, and then come back for more a lot sooner, and instead of preparing myself for the late game, I keep having to replenish lost units to take the Muta cloud head on. The Zerg player uses this control to expand all over the map, gain late game tech, stock larva, and so on. Then a large engagement happens where I might be able to kill off a bunch of mutas with a bunch of Stalkers and Storms and Phoenixes, but then the Zerg can instantly remake their army with the counter to what I have (Ultras and Infestors, let's say) and that ends up being the game.
I'm all for something needing to be done to make Mutas viable versus Terran and Widow Mines, but I think the approach taken has inadvertently broken PvZ for the time being. And this is coming from a player who got to 1000 wins as Random in WoL playing all races.
On December 15 2012 06:34 Jalued wrote: I really hope that they make the medivac boosters drain energy. That way the terran would have to use it strategically and it would allow toss to feedback the medivacs and stop it from escaping. Currently toss has no real way to prevent drops
i really hope they don't. Using speed boost constantly makes for a more action packed game. (like you get quicker from point a to b). Design wise this is absolutely fantastic. Maybe it's not perfect balance wise though.
On December 15 2012 06:34 Jalued wrote: I really hope that they make the medivac boosters drain energy. That way the terran would have to use it strategically and it would allow toss to feedback the medivacs and stop it from escaping. Currently toss has no real way to prevent drops
Except for this ability to build units almost virtually anywhere on the map with no drawback.
I keep hearing protoss complain about mutas but i havent heard about any toss that open up phoenix against zerg yet and how that fairs. With the new upgrade, they should be able to completely wreck mutas right? Or are muta too fast now that they can take on phoenix?
It's kind of hard to comment on mutas atm. Everyone seems to make too many. It plays out exactly the same as doom drops in z vs t in BW. Turtle in your base until you know you will win the "base trade" game. I'd rather win a base trade kinda game than make phoenixes. Even if they did counter the mutas, I'm left with dead weight. For as much as people want to call the corruptor useless, I'm pretty sure they can morph into one of the best units in the mu, if not the best. Phoenix, meh.
On December 15 2012 12:57 playa wrote: It's kind of hard to comment on mutas atm. Everyone seems to make too many. It plays out exactly the same as doom drops in z vs t in BW. Turtle in your base until you know you will win the "base trade" game. I'd rather win a base trade kinda game than make phoenixes. Even if they did counter the mutas, I'm left with dead weight. For as much as people want to call the corruptor useless, I'm pretty sure they can morph into one of the best units in the mu, if not the best. Phoenix, meh.
Actually the new oracle + phoenix is a direct soft counter to muta/ling.
A rush to the front door of your natural with a well prepared force will rip to shreds the mutas while oracles clean up the lings.
Phoenix are amazing against mutas btw, even without range upgrade they have a 2 range advantage and I think (but not sure) that they're slightly faster still.
On December 15 2012 12:57 playa wrote:For as much as people want to call the corruptor useless, I'm pretty sure they can morph into one of the best units in the mu, if not the best.
Mutas are still awful ZvP and ZvT, haven't been able to win a single game with them . They are completely broken now in ZvZ, and the game simply who was able to bank 100 gas more than the other by the time the spire finishes. I have to say with lings becoming irrelevant in HOTS non-mirrors and the boring, awful roach becoming the go-to unit in all matchups, I've found more time to play DOTA 2 than ever before. I can't stand how for the first 16 minutes of the game I'm just playing WOL and how most of our changes revolved around making WOL units not complete trash (Hydra/Ultra).
On December 15 2012 12:57 playa wrote:For as much as people want to call the corruptor useless, I'm pretty sure they can morph into one of the best units in the mu, if not the best.
You mean the MU where Tempests exist?
If you're high on the muta count and constantly hurassing you'll be able to see when he starts getting a fleet beacon and either stop his production completely or snipe the tempests with your mutas.
Damn, I was hoping the Air and Ground Vehicle upgrades and the Dark Shrine and Templar Archives would merge and stay merged, actually having viable Sky Terran compositions was making the Terrans the funnest race to play in years. I think the other races should've moved in that direction too, not away form it
On December 15 2012 10:56 Kyuki wrote: God! It's so annoying to read about how zerg seem to think they don't have tech options like terran and toss to motivate burrow at hatch tech... I'm fine with burrow at hatch, that's how it's been in the past. Just increase the upgrade back to 100 gas and it should be reasonable. Maybe.
My issue though is that zergs here think that they don't have any options now and that they should be able to just get away with extremely low gas costs and still be able to put pressure on, lika that was true for terran and toss. It isn't! Tech openings are heavy investments in gas. Always. A few examples in pure gas cost:
None of the above ways to tech even consider the cost of gas units you need to defend yourself (mainly for toss) or the sacrifice in Eco etc which is present for ALL races when you tech. WoL beta and early days was full of early zerg pressure and tech. Had to be balanced of due to inject but it was still present. I still face early muta in the masters which is tricksy as he'll since it throws you off completely. Reason why so few utilize early zerg pressure is because it's harder to pull off than to just play standard not because the options are nay!
People seem stuck in "how things work" instead of just thinking more holistically.
My 2 copper
Thing is, Zerg needs a lot more gas for units to be effective with these tech choices. You don't need >10 DTs, tanks or banshees to do damage. Stalkers don't cost as much gas, hellions cost none at all. Yet the zerg needs >10 mutas (1000 gas) or >5 infestors (750 gas) to be efficient.
On December 15 2012 10:56 Kyuki wrote: God! It's so annoying to read about how zerg seem to think they don't have tech options like terran and toss to motivate burrow at hatch tech... I'm fine with burrow at hatch, that's how it's been in the past. Just increase the upgrade back to 100 gas and it should be reasonable. Maybe.
My issue though is that zergs here think that they don't have any options now and that they should be able to just get away with extremely low gas costs and still be able to put pressure on, lika that was true for terran and toss. It isn't! Tech openings are heavy investments in gas. Always. A few examples in pure gas cost:
None of the above ways to tech even consider the cost of gas units you need to defend yourself (mainly for toss) or the sacrifice in Eco etc which is present for ALL races when you tech. WoL beta and early days was full of early zerg pressure and tech. Had to be balanced of due to inject but it was still present. I still face early muta in the masters which is tricksy as he'll since it throws you off completely. Reason why so few utilize early zerg pressure is because it's harder to pull off than to just play standard not because the options are nay!
People seem stuck in "how things work" instead of just thinking more holistically.
My 2 copper
Thing is, Zerg needs a lot more gas for units to be effective with these tech choices. You don't need >10 DTs, tanks or banshees to do damage. Stalkers don't cost as much gas, hellions cost none at all. Yet the zerg needs >10 mutas (1000 gas) or >5 infestors (750 gas) to be efficient.
Na, 3mutas are really good if you can hit with them 6-7mins (like Terran banshees). The real "problem": Production capacity: If you wanted to do something similar to a banshee opening, what are the costs to get there: 250spawning pool, 150/100lair, 250/200 spire = 650/300. With that investment, you are allowed to build mutas/drones/OLs/Queens/buildings - of 10 larva per minute (not even counting the queen as cost). Compare that to a Terran that goes Factory, Barracks, Starport = 450/200: ~3.5 SCVs, 2 hellions, 2.4 marines, 1banshee per minute, as many supply depots and buildings as you can afford.
You are simply going to get completly outproduced and if you don't build a hatch as one of your first buildings. So you go hatch+pool and you already have quite higher tech costs (and lair/spire take quite longer to build then the Terran techs), but you also have to justify that hatch investment - imagine a Terran building 3raxes "just in case" he needed defense, and then going into banshee... So you simply have to delay everything to the point, where every tech build becomes an economy build. And that's actually what annoys me most with recent Zerg playstyles. If you don't play greedy with 3 fast bases, you are more vulnurable, then if you just build drones and compensate losses with more production/income. I guess, due to banelings and roaches blizzard thought that zerg would have quite some aggressive potential. And they were right. But due to how low ranged those units are, it's impossible to do something with them early on, without allinning, (as long as the opponent walls).
Aggression that isn't all-in existed in WoL ZvT, but now it doesn't because of the mine, which is really sad. This unit is, in my opinion, way too strong defensively. In ZvT you're forced to play "Muhammad Ali" style, endure punch after punch until you can finally deliver one single game ending blow. Never mind that it's probably open to all sorts of abuse; it's really boring to play and one-dimensional.
the tempest is such a shit unit design from the getgo, just like the warhound was. It's a shitty idea to implement hard counters when we've seen from WOL that they're a nightmare to balance, boring to watch, and boring to use.
Void ray, tempest, and carrier have so much overlap it doesn't make ANY sense. Protoss doesn't need SEVEN flying units (including phoenix, oracle, observer, mothership)
On December 15 2012 23:40 Honeybadger wrote: the tempest is such a shit unit design from the getgo, just like the warhound was. It's a shitty idea to implement hard counters when we've seen from WOL that they're a nightmare to balance, boring to watch, and boring to use.
Void ray, tempest, and carrier have so much overlap it doesn't make ANY sense. Protoss doesn't need SEVEN flying units (including phoenix, oracle, observer, mothership)
One unit per Terran unit that can fight air: Marine, Ghost, Thor, Widow Mine, Viking, Raven, BC
On December 15 2012 23:40 Honeybadger wrote: the tempest is such a shit unit design from the getgo, just like the warhound was. It's a shitty idea to implement hard counters when we've seen from WOL that they're a nightmare to balance, boring to watch, and boring to use.
Void ray, tempest, and carrier have so much overlap it doesn't make ANY sense. Protoss doesn't need SEVEN flying units (including phoenix, oracle, observer, mothership)
One unit per Terran unit that can fight air: Marine, Ghost, Thor, Widow Mine, Viking, Raven, BC
And 0.1 units for how many drones Zerg has at the 7 minute mark for free: 70
I'm not sure how sly comments on Terran are relevant to the terrible game design of a unit like the Tempest like the poster you were quoting brought up. When the Warhound (similar to the roach) was being discussed as having bad game design did you list out how many units could hit it?
Protoss NEEDS a good counter to mutas NOW! Tempest/phoenix aren´t good vs mass mutas. Toss only can rely on HT´s, and now the mutas are faster so they can avoid storms easily and even their regen is buffed? Blizzard please think before making these kind of buffs, or at least give toss a reliable AoE (unlike storm).
On December 16 2012 00:51 kaNt- wrote: Protoss NEEDS a good counter to mutas NOW! Tempest/phoenix aren´t good vs mass mutas. Toss only can rely on HT´s, and now the mutas are faster so they can avoid storms easily and even their regen is buffed? Blizzard please think before making these kind of buffs, or at least give toss a reliable AoE (unlike storm).
Now zerg can happily mass mutas and expand 20 times and toss has to turtle... GOOD JOB BLIZZ!
I don't think the Tempest is badly designed. I do think the recent buff to anti-air massive was unnecessary, but thats a trivial balance tweak, not a design issue.
I think its a pretty good unit for a number of reasons.
1.) It isn't gimmicky. No abilities, no summoned mini-units, no cliffwalking. It flies, it has an attack with long cooldown and long range. Easy as hell to instantly understand and visually process, even for the newest spectator, and in general I think the game is already getting pretty heavy on spellcasters and abilities, so units that do their job without either are welcome.
2.) It doesn't contribute to a giant clump in your main army. I mean, you can do that, but then you're wasting their range and using them suboptimally. Ideally, you want them controlled in a separate control group and kept somewhat behind your main army. Visually, this is just much more enjoyable to watch then one big deathball. Its also more fun to control, which brings me to my next point.
3.) They promote better control and tactics on both sides. You want them spread enough to minimize splash vulnerability, you want a certain amount of focus fire...but not too much because they'll overkill like crazy vs. a lot of units, and with their long cooldown overkill just destroys their effective dps. In response, they promote stuff like flanking with muta swarms, or marine drops in the back line (much more feasible with the new medivac speed). This is vastly more interesting than giant clump vs giant clump. Its more fun to play as well.
4.) They have a clear role, but aren't one dimensional. They will probably be most used as a "second line", not right with your main army but trailing a little ways behind it to provide support sniping capital ships, colossi, and if those aren't around, then casters and other priority units. But their long range also makes them good at forcing engagements, which synergizes well with some other Toss abilities--for example, the Void Ray charge is on a timer, so once the opponent has baited it, it can be to their benefit to pull back until it wears off. Tempests can punish that a bit. They also in theory have a certain amount of harass potential in supporting other air units with minimal risk to the Tempest itself.
The thing is, I think the Tempest was all of the above things before this patch. Was anyone going, "man, Tempests would be good, but they just don't do enough damage to capital ships"? I don't think so. This sort of comes out of the blue and as a Protoss player even I don't think its necessary.
On December 16 2012 00:51 kaNt- wrote: Protoss NEEDS a good counter to mutas NOW! Tempest/phoenix aren´t good vs mass mutas. Toss only can rely on HT´s, and now the mutas are faster so they can avoid storms easily and even their regen is buffed? Blizzard please think before making these kind of buffs, or at least give toss a reliable AoE (unlike storm).
Phoenix destroy mutas. What are you talking about? With their range buff, a single Phoenix with reasonable micro can kill a crazy shitload of mutas. If by some chance they make absolutely silly numbers of mutas, get the range upgrade. Then even basically shitty micro will be enough to kill infinite mutas without taking any damage in return.
On December 15 2012 23:40 Honeybadger wrote: the tempest is such a shit unit design from the getgo, just like the warhound was. It's a shitty idea to implement hard counters when we've seen from WOL that they're a nightmare to balance, boring to watch, and boring to use.
Void ray, tempest, and carrier have so much overlap it doesn't make ANY sense. Protoss doesn't need SEVEN flying units (including phoenix, oracle, observer, mothership)
One unit per Terran unit that can fight air: Marine, Ghost, Thor, Widow Mine, Viking, Raven, BC
And 0.1 units for how many drones Zerg has at the 7 minute mark for free: 70
I'm not sure how sly comments on Terran are relevant to the terrible game design of a unit like the Tempest like the poster you were quoting brought up. When the Warhound (similar to the roach) was being discussed as having bad game design did you list out how many units could hit it?
Lol. Didn't mean any harm, just saw the numbers coincide. (but that's not even true. He forgot MSC and Prism, so it's 9 flyers for Protoss)
I don't have a strong opinion on the Tempest right now. I think it can be a great unit. I just think that the numbers are somewhat off currently. And I don't see it overlap too much with VR and Carrier designwise. Carrier is meant to be the bread and butter unit of an airfleet if you face Marine/Stalker/Hydra types of GtA. Tempest is meant as a siege/anti-siege sniper. VR is there to kill armored units.
On December 16 2012 00:51 kaNt- wrote: Protoss NEEDS a good counter to mutas NOW! Tempest/phoenix aren´t good vs mass mutas. Toss only can rely on HT´s, and now the mutas are faster so they can avoid storms easily and even their regen is buffed? Blizzard please think before making these kind of buffs, or at least give toss a reliable AoE (unlike storm).
lol... how about the mothership core that turns your nexus into a cannon that can beat a ton of muta's on it's own or how about the phoenix that outranges the muta VERY comfortably now
muta are probably worse than before except ZvZ because the entire muta/ling style has been nerfed in ZvP and ZvT. Roach/muta was never a great combination
On December 16 2012 00:51 kaNt- wrote: Protoss NEEDS a good counter to mutas NOW! Tempest/phoenix aren´t good vs mass mutas. Toss only can rely on HT´s, and now the mutas are faster so they can avoid storms easily and even their regen is buffed? Blizzard please think before making these kind of buffs, or at least give toss a reliable AoE (unlike storm).
lol... how about the mothership core that turns your nexus into a cannon that can beat a ton of muta's on it's own or how about the phoenix that outranges the muta VERY comfortably now
muta are probably worse than before except ZvZ because the entire muta/ling style has been nerfed in ZvP and ZvT. Roach/muta was never a great combination
Nexus canon? are you serious? you know mass mutas can just go harass main or natural(whatever isnt cannonified)
If you open something other then stargate Ranged pheonix doesnt really help, The fleet beacon itself is 300 200 gas.(most expensive tech building in the game)
On paper your suggestions are decent but in reality are not very effective.
I for one would like stalkers damage to be changed from 10 +4 to armored to 10 +4 to light, Sure it will change the tvp dynamic but imo not that much
right now every zerg MU goes around the infestor... it does make some nice show to watch (micro intensive), and make the game interesting in many way but... EVERY SINGLE GAME?! vs all 3 races?
so maybe infestor need the nerf.. but it must come to a buff to the others options... or you will just cripple zerg on every MU... so yes... mutas, hydras, SH...
early and mid game are slowly becoming to passive... and it suck... its boring...!!!
so yes... more early aggression options are cool!! (for all 3 races please!)
On December 16 2012 00:51 kaNt- wrote: Protoss NEEDS a good counter to mutas NOW! Tempest/phoenix aren´t good vs mass mutas. Toss only can rely on HT´s, and now the mutas are faster so they can avoid storms easily and even their regen is buffed? Blizzard please think before making these kind of buffs, or at least give toss a reliable AoE (unlike storm).
lol... how about the mothership core that turns your nexus into a cannon that can beat a ton of muta's on it's own or how about the phoenix that outranges the muta VERY comfortably now
muta are probably worse than before except ZvZ because the entire muta/ling style has been nerfed in ZvP and ZvT. Roach/muta was never a great combination
Nexus canon? are you serious? you know mass mutas can just go harass main or natural(whatever isnt cannonified)
If you open something other then stargate Ranged pheonix doesnt really help, The fleet beacon itself is 300 200 gas.(most expensive tech building in the game)
On paper your suggestions are decent but in reality are not very effective.
I for one would like stalkers damage to be changed from 10 +4 to armored to 10 +4 to light, Sure it will change the tvp dynamic but imo not that much
Phoenix can still outrange Mutas by 1 w/o upgrade. You want micro to be somewhat difficult, right?
one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too.
On December 16 2012 03:21 pepsimaxibon wrote: one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too.
Sounds like a great change. Also don't archons destroy muta/lings?
Seeing as some don't seem to get that the nexus cannon is really helpful, perhaps they should try mothership core into expand builds. If need be, you can usually always eliminate 2 points of attacks for a minute, given good mothership core positioning. If you can't defend one location or locations aided by the cannon ability, then mutas are either horribly imbalanced or you're doing something terribly wrong. The mothership core puts you in fantastic position to win base trade games, as you always have a minute of free time to make the perfect composition. Zerg should probably have to transition away from mutas against early purifier/cannon.
On December 16 2012 03:21 pepsimaxibon wrote: one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too.
Sounds like a great change. Also don't archons destroy muta/lings?
Depends, when you have only a few Archons, you can go around them with Mutas since they are slow and have low range(same as Mutas), and you can magic box them like Thors, their splash is even lower than the one from Thors. But when you go with more than few Archons(5+), with proper support from Zealots and Stalkers, it can get really hard for Mutas and Lings to deal with those.
On December 16 2012 03:21 pepsimaxibon wrote: one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too.
Stargate tech already counters mutalisks easily, making time warp hit air isn't really necessary. Honestly I don't think Protoss needs any help against mutalisks at all; now that multiple stargates are totally viable, phoenixes have 5 range base and you can get early hallucinations to scout the spire as soon as it comes up muta tech is pointless. It only works if the Protoss plays badly. In WoL mutas beat robo but lose to twilight tech, which gives you a 50/50 chance of them working, but in HotS there are 3 viable tech paths, 2 of which beat mutas, giving you a 67% chance of getting blind countered. Even if Protoss does go for robo they can hold mutalisk attacks if they scout properly. I don't see any reason for Zerg to ever even try making mutalisks outside of ZvZ.
On December 16 2012 02:46 mati wrote: right now every zerg MU goes around the infestor... it does make some nice show to watch (micro intensive), and make the game interesting in many way but... EVERY SINGLE GAME?! vs all 3 races?
so maybe infestor need the nerf.. but it must come to a buff to the others options... or you will just cripple zerg on every MU... so yes... mutas, hydras, SH...
early and mid game are slowly becoming to passive... and it suck... its boring...!!!
so yes... more early aggression options are cool!! (for all 3 races please!)
Can I assume you're trolling? If you actually played HotS you would realize infestors got nerfed into oblivion and mutas and hydras both got buffed...
On December 16 2012 03:21 pepsimaxibon wrote: one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too.
Stargate tech already counters mutalisks easily, making time warp hit air isn't really necessary. Honestly I don't think Protoss needs any help against mutalisks at all; now that multiple stargates are totally viable, phoenixes have 5 range base and you can get early hallucinations to scout the spire as soon as it comes up muta tech is pointless. It only works if the Protoss plays badly. In WoL mutas beat robo but lose to twilight tech, which gives you a 50/50 chance of them working, but in HotS there are 3 viable tech paths, 2 of which beat mutas, giving you a 67% chance of getting blind countered. Even if Protoss does go for robo they can hold mutalisk attacks if they scout properly. I don't see any reason for Zerg to ever even try making mutalisks outside of ZvZ.
In HotS, Templar tech doesn't deal with Mutas at all anymore, the increased mobility combined with regeneration means that it's simply not a desirable option. Even in WoL, handling Mutas with a specific combination of Templar tech units was more of a defensive necessity than a counter. I've heard Korean progamers talk that the most crucial element of Phoenix openings in WoL is that it deters a mass Muta mid-game.
Mass phoenix with the range upgrade shut down Mutas handily (with the new Muta mobility, even 5 range Phoenix have severe issues), but they are an extremely strict and linear investment. If they are the only legitimate option Toss has left, that's just bad game design. Time Warp gives Protoss options that requires synergy and co-ordination rather than brute force, given the recent air buffs, it seems like a no brainer to extend its utility.
Given the scale of some of the experiments were seeing Blizzard take with HotS, it would be a wasted opportunity not to at least try it out.
i don't really understand all the protoss complaining about the muta regen buff, 2 stargate phoenix with the range upgrade added later on shut mutas down completely and you gain air dominance, just need to worry about ling counters.
On December 16 2012 03:21 pepsimaxibon wrote: one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too.
Stargate tech already counters mutalisks easily, making time warp hit air isn't really necessary. Honestly I don't think Protoss needs any help against mutalisks at all; now that multiple stargates are totally viable, phoenixes have 5 range base and you can get early hallucinations to scout the spire as soon as it comes up muta tech is pointless. It only works if the Protoss plays badly. In WoL mutas beat robo but lose to twilight tech, which gives you a 50/50 chance of them working, but in HotS there are 3 viable tech paths, 2 of which beat mutas, giving you a 67% chance of getting blind countered. Even if Protoss does go for robo they can hold mutalisk attacks if they scout properly. I don't see any reason for Zerg to ever even try making mutalisks outside of ZvZ.
In HotS, Templar tech doesn't deal with Mutas at all anymore, the increased mobility combined with regeneration means that it's simply not a desirable option. Even in WoL, handling Mutas with a specific combination of Templar tech units was more of a defensive necessity than a counter. I've heard Korean progamers talk that the most crucial element of Phoenix openings in WoL is that it deters a mass Muta mid-game.
Mass phoenix with the range upgrade shut down Mutas handily (with the new Muta mobility, even 5 range Phoenix have severe issues), but they are an extremely strict and linear investment. If they are the only legitimate option Toss has left, that's just bad game design. Time Warp gives Protoss options that requires synergy and co-ordination rather than brute force, given the recent air buffs, it seems like a no brainer to extend its utility.
Given the scale of some of the experiments were seeing Blizzard take with HotS, it would be a wasted opportunity not to at least try it out.
I disagree, I mean in broodwar, Protoss would generally open corsairs first due to the threat of mutas. I think it fine and people just need to adjust their play style a bit more and it too early to tell. Opening phoenix first isnt soo bad I mean it give you great map control as well just dont over produce them imo. The muta speed buff should get toned down soo in the next patch because they are a bit over the top atm.
On December 16 2012 03:21 pepsimaxibon wrote: one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too.
Stargate tech already counters mutalisks easily, making time warp hit air isn't really necessary. Honestly I don't think Protoss needs any help against mutalisks at all; now that multiple stargates are totally viable, phoenixes have 5 range base and you can get early hallucinations to scout the spire as soon as it comes up muta tech is pointless. It only works if the Protoss plays badly. In WoL mutas beat robo but lose to twilight tech, which gives you a 50/50 chance of them working, but in HotS there are 3 viable tech paths, 2 of which beat mutas, giving you a 67% chance of getting blind countered. Even if Protoss does go for robo they can hold mutalisk attacks if they scout properly. I don't see any reason for Zerg to ever even try making mutalisks outside of ZvZ.
In HotS, Templar tech doesn't deal with Mutas at all anymore, the increased mobility combined with regeneration means that it's simply not a desirable option. Even in WoL, handling Mutas with a specific combination of Templar tech units was more of a defensive necessity than a counter. I've heard Korean progamers talk that the most crucial element of Phoenix openings in WoL is that it deters a mass Muta mid-game.
Mass phoenix with the range upgrade shut down Mutas handily (with the new Muta mobility, even 5 range Phoenix have severe issues), but they are an extremely strict and linear investment. If they are the only legitimate option Toss has left, that's just bad game design. Time Warp gives Protoss options that requires synergy and co-ordination rather than brute force, given the recent air buffs, it seems like a no brainer to extend its utility.
Given the scale of some of the experiments were seeing Blizzard take with HotS, it would be a wasted opportunity not to at least try it out.
You may be right about their new regeneration rate making storms weak against mutalisks, but it's simply way too early to tell at this point. It took Protoss a while to adjust to mutalisks in WoL ZvP; for a while it was muta-ling-mass spine base trade style every game while Protoss looked completely helpless against that style. They were making blink stalkers and high templar and archons and cannons and stuff, they just didn't use them quite well enough and they couldn't win. And then they got used to playing against muta-ling and started winning consistently and Zergs stopped using it. So maybe the new regen is too good against storms, maybe it isn't. There really isn't any way to tell, and there's no reason to add new counters to mutas just because they might be too good. Also if, after giving it time and letting Protoss players figure things out and improve, twilight tech doesn't beat mutas in HotS then IMO Blizzard should be giving better muta counters to twilight tech, not the stargate tech which already counters them. That would just further pigeonhole PvZ into stargate play.
All that said, I actually like the idea of time warp hitting air; not because I think stargate tech needs to be better against mutalisks but simply because it's logical and, like you said, Blizzard are doing a lot of experimenting with HotS as it is so why not? Also I'm actually totally fine with mutalisks being useless in ZvP for now because they made for awful games, but I'd much rather see that fixed by making them balanced and interesting to watch rather than keeping them in their current unused state.
On December 16 2012 11:47 EleanorRIgby wrote: i don't really understand all the protoss complaining about the muta regen buff, 2 stargate phoenix with the range upgrade added later on shut mutas down completely and you gain air dominance, just need to worry about ling counters.
Because we are being forced by blizzard into a particular meta game. I hate what blizzard is doing to this game. They are trying to control the metagame too much instead of letting it work itself out. Now anything on the ground loses hard to mutas. We are forced to go stargate every fucking game. Oh I landed a good storm? Too bad the mutas will have full health in 80 seconds. I understand the want for stargate to be viable, but for it to be forced? That's bad game design.
On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote: Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk.
I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now.
cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster.
The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently.
Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range.
you know what i am saying is true.
Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia.
its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point:
Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit.
On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote: Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk.
I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now.
cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster.
The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently.
Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range.
you know what i am saying is true.
Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia.
its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point:
Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit.
Anymore simple and its using Collosi.
No, w/ range upgrade AND speed boost, Zs can do hydra roach rushes like in WoL beta again. ;(
On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote: Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk.
I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now.
cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster.
The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently.
Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range.
you know what i am saying is true.
Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia.
its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point:
Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit.
Anymore simple and its using Collosi.
No, w/ range upgrade AND speed boost, Zs can do hydra roach rushes like in WoL beta again. ;(
No, just no.
The Problem was the roach in the beta, if you think for a second you would realise this.
The hydralisk got nerfed for no reason, when it was the roach back then that was the problem.
Want to know why the roach even exists? Because Of the small maps,the better marines, and warp gate mechanic, zerg needed a durable unit to survive it all.
the 1 supply was to make this unit feel Swarmy, but its 2 armor was for the durability.
how they nerfed it is pretty funny all they did was switch the supply cost with the armor level.
So you can thank the roach for 2 things
1) Making the hydralisk be worse
2) No more hatch tech burrow.
The roach truely was Zergs "savoir" back in beta in more ways then one. The infestor became the bandaid unit when hydralisk got worse and ultralisk just didn't do good splash damage( they still don't and I'll make a post about this in due time).
Deep down you know what i am saying is true, and theres also plenty of information and gameplay that proves it.
oh and 1 last thing The roach Hydra pushes were strong BECAUSE THE ROACH WAS STRONG.
and don't you find it funny how people say "roach hydra" and "infestor Broodlord" theres a reason why the roach and infestor are put first, because they caused the most problems/are problems.
Ultras are Zerg colossi in HoTs except without cliff-walk and targetable by air. Did I mention the 5 armor and any ranged unit will be creamed when hit FG and B.cloud? Auto-win button is back for Zerg.
On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote: Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk.
I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now.
cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster.
The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently.
Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range.
you know what i am saying is true.
Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia.
its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point:
Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit.
Anymore simple and its using Collosi.
No, w/ range upgrade AND speed boost, Zs can do hydra roach rushes like in WoL beta again. ;(
No, just no.
The Problem was the roach in the beta, if you think for a second you would realise this.
The hydralisk got nerfed for no reason, when it was the roach back then that was the problem.
Want to know why the roach even exists? Because Of the small maps,the better marines, and warp gate mechanic, zerg needed a durable unit to survive it all.
the 1 supply was to make this unit feel Swarmy, but its 2 armor was for the durability.
how they nerfed it is pretty funny all they did was switch the supply cost with the armor level.
So you can thank the roach for 2 things
1) Making the hydralisk be worse
2) No more hatch tech burrow.
The roach truely was Zergs "savoir" back in beta in more ways then one. The infestor became the bandaid unit when hydralisk got worse and ultralisk just didn't do good splash damage( they still don't and I'll make a post about this in due time).
Deep down you know what i am saying is true, and theres also plenty of information and gameplay that proves it.
oh and 1 last thing The roach Hydra pushes were strong BECAUSE THE ROACH WAS STRONG.
and don't you find it funny how people say "roach hydra" and "infestor Broodlord" theres a reason why the roach and infestor are put first, because they caused the most problems/are problems.
Sorry, apart from the part with the WoL beta nerfs, everything you write is just speculation. The roach was probably long time in the game before blizzard really thought about whether the maps they were using would be balanced. (they actually commented a cuple of times that they are surprised about tournaments still using some of their maps) Burrow tech might have gone to Lair just because OLs aren't Detectors anymore (burrow blocking Hatcheries) or because of banelings. After all, in the first alpha variations, roaches did regenerate unburrowed as well and the burrowregeneration was implemented after burrow was already at lair.
The Roach/Hydra pushes were strong. But would they be bad for the game these days? I mean, people keep on commenting (and I agree) that Zerg should be that swarmy race that sends wave after wave and uses its superior production, instead of turtling to a better techball... Well, in such a game pushes like roach/hydra MUST be possible. Even more they MUST be able to do reasonable damage. Also, are they worse gameplaywise than the new variation that is a direct result of the roach changes - 200/200 roach? After all, with 3range roaches (instead of the 4range that was a compensation for the 2supply), the firepower of bigger roach balls would be roughly 3/4th of the recent situation. (though I do believe 2supply is fine. But I'm heavily questioning the 4range and thinking about how awesome marines and chargelots or zealots with FF support are against roaches these days, the 1armor). For the Hydralisk, I wouldn't be too sure that they still suck. Like, Acer_Bly did some cool 2base Hydra expand builds in WoL (hydras instead of roaches) and with the new lairspeed, you can now do those builds and afterwards go out on the map with hydras and attack walls/front line zealots. If the army comes out, you retreat (something that wasn't possible before).
I do agree that roach/hydra in the lategame is still in a really awkward spot - it is one of the worst maxed army compositions in the game. And though Viper/Infestor/Corruptor support is possible, I do believe that you still must switch completly out of the core composition and go 100% Hivetech/Infestor to stand a chance against Gateway+Tech and Biomech/Mech compositions - not just in direct combat, but also in real gameplay.
Zerg have more than just Hydralisks to deal with air and if Terran "mech" are told to build Vikings to deal with air then you can be asked to build Mutalisks as well. Corruptors, Queens and Spore Crawlers arent half bad either at dealing with air. Vipers are a nice new option in HotS to deal with slow and big air units.
On December 16 2012 21:54 Rabiator wrote: Zerg have more than just Hydralisks to deal with air and if Terran "mech" are told to build Vikings to deal with air then you can be asked to build Mutalisks as well. Corruptors, Queens and Spore Crawlers arent half bad either at dealing with air. Vipers are a nice new option in HotS to deal with slow and big air units.
On December 16 2012 21:54 Rabiator wrote: Zerg have more than just Hydralisks to deal with air and if Terran "mech" are told to build Vikings to deal with air then you can be asked to build Mutalisks as well. Corruptors, Queens and Spore Crawlers arent half bad either at dealing with air. Vipers are a nice new option in HotS to deal with slow and big air units.
Agreed. Just... who are you responding to?
Mainly Zergrusher and his "boohoo ... undo the nerfs to Hydralisks" comments, but others argue with him about the "Hydra details" while not seeing the "big picture" (of Zerg having enough good AA) so I didnt quote ...
On December 16 2012 02:46 mati wrote: right now every zerg MU goes around the infestor... it does make some nice show to watch (micro intensive)
Bit wrong on your terminology. Smart-casting isn't considered micro intensive; in fact it's designed to virtually not take any micro at all. Unless you mean it makes the opponent micro, though Protoss doesn't really split their units because they're so beefy anyways.
On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote: Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk.
I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now.
cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster.
The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently.
Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range.
you know what i am saying is true.
Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia.
its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point:
Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit.
Anymore simple and its using Collosi.
No, w/ range upgrade AND speed boost, Zs can do hydra roach rushes like in WoL beta again. ;(
No, just no.
The Problem was the roach in the beta, if you think for a second you would realise this.
The hydralisk got nerfed for no reason, when it was the roach back then that was the problem.
Want to know why the roach even exists? Because Of the small maps,the better marines, and warp gate mechanic, zerg needed a durable unit to survive it all.
the 1 supply was to make this unit feel Swarmy, but its 2 armor was for the durability.
how they nerfed it is pretty funny all they did was switch the supply cost with the armor level.
So you can thank the roach for 2 things
1) Making the hydralisk be worse
2) No more hatch tech burrow.
The roach truely was Zergs "savoir" back in beta in more ways then one. The infestor became the bandaid unit when hydralisk got worse and ultralisk just didn't do good splash damage( they still don't and I'll make a post about this in due time).
Deep down you know what i am saying is true, and theres also plenty of information and gameplay that proves it.
oh and 1 last thing The roach Hydra pushes were strong BECAUSE THE ROACH WAS STRONG.
and don't you find it funny how people say "roach hydra" and "infestor Broodlord" theres a reason why the roach and infestor are put first, because they caused the most problems/are problems.
On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote: Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk.
I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now.
cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster.
The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently.
Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range.
you know what i am saying is true.
Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia.
its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point:
Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit.
Anymore simple and its using Collosi.
I was also asking for that buff all time. But honestly, after many beta games, i think the hydra would be a bit too scary, especially in zvp, with just one upgrade. I dont think it would change the viability in ZvT at all, they are and will be crap if you dont play vs mech. In zvz and zvp hydras are really good now. The two upgrades also force a decision from you and doesnt allow you to attack quite as fast as you might would like to. Still, there are timings before certain key units are out, so you still can go aggressive/allin with them. Maybe they should reduce the cost of both upgrades a little bit, i dont think that it needs to be changed though at all.
I still really would like a way to buff the hydra for zvt, i just dont see an answer without hydras being too strong in zvp.
On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote: What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk?
And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack.
On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote: What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk?
And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack.
They can be used for assault attacks the same way lings can. Zerg is about overwhelming with numbers not having huge meaty units.
I tried hydra viper in zvt. They were terrible. I mean the blinding cloud kicks ass even vs bio you get a good advantage if you have enough blinding clouds. The enemy runs around while you shoot them. Combined with fungal blinding cloud is probably instant death for a caught army.
But the hydralisk itself is like the most uneffective unit vs terran ever. It's really almost ridiculous how basically every terran unit kills ultralisks cost for cost.
But in zvp the hydralisk kicks total ass since gateway units are crap and forcefields don't help as much vs the long range. Without collossus you simply always die to hydra. No options there.
I would vote for +1 additional range on the hydra WITH the range upgrade, that would help vs air and possibly vs collossi as well.
The other option would be 1 supply hydras which I think would be cool, but for that we would need a toss gateway unit buff and maybe a siegetank buff (although bio could handle that no problem).
I totally agree with the latest post. Give hydras +2 range instead of just 1. The other options presented here are bad cause would make all-ins too powerfull.
On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote: What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk?
And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack.
They can be used for assault attacks the same way lings can. Zerg is about overwhelming with numbers not having huge meaty units.
No they can't, because they cost too much for what they can do. Nobody will use Hydras for those kind of things, and that is the reason why you don't see pure Hydra, but support with cheap units that soak up damage for them, like Lings or Roaches.
On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote: What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk?
And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack.
They can be used for assault attacks the same way lings can. Zerg is about overwhelming with numbers not having huge meaty units.
No they can't, because they cost too much for what they can do. Nobody will use Hydras for those kind of things, and that is the reason why you don't see pure Hydra, but support with cheap units that soak up damage for them, like Lings or Roaches.
Hydralisks are cheap, and with Zerg's insane production boosts they can be mass produced like any other unit.
On December 17 2012 00:56 StarscreamG1 wrote: I totally agree with the latest post. Give hydras +2 range instead of just 1. The other options presented here are bad cause would make all-ins too powerfull.
And move the range upgrade to hivetech. 7range hydras on lairtech are ridicolous overpowered. Especially if you have a speedupgrade there as well
On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote: What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk?
And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack.
They can be used for assault attacks the same way lings can. Zerg is about overwhelming with numbers not having huge meaty units.
No they can't, because they cost too much for what they can do. Nobody will use Hydras for those kind of things, and that is the reason why you don't see pure Hydra, but support with cheap units that soak up damage for them, like Lings or Roaches.
Hydralisks are cheap, and with Zerg's insane production mechanics they can be mass produced like any other unit.
Hydralisks are cheap? You are either a bad troll or don't know what you are talking about. Nobody is talking about mass production, if I have the money, I can mass produce the Ultralisks, that doesn't mean that they are cheap.
Hydras are 100/50/2, and there are few units that they don't lose straight up fight to. One Hydra is strong as two Marines when they are at 0-0 upgrades, except that it doesn't have a stim, but +1 range and a bit less HP. When the upgrades start to kick in, one Hydra has even less HP than two Marines, worse DPS, Mobility, everything.
With addition of speed at lair tech, they are average support range units at best.
On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote: What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk?
And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack.
They can be used for assault attacks the same way lings can. Zerg is about overwhelming with numbers not having huge meaty units.
No they can't, because they cost too much for what they can do. Nobody will use Hydras for those kind of things, and that is the reason why you don't see pure Hydra, but support with cheap units that soak up damage for them, like Lings or Roaches.
Hydralisks are cheap, and with Zerg's insane production mechanics they can be mass produced like any other unit.
Hydralisks are cheap? You are either a bad troll or don't know what you are talking about. Nobody is talking about mass production, if I have the money, I can mass produce the Ultralisks, that doesn't mean that they are cheap.
Hydras are 100/50/2, and there are few units that they don't lose straight up fight to. One Hydra is strong as two Marines when they are at 0-0 upgrades, except that it doesn't have a stim, but +1 range and a bit less HP. When the upgrades start to kick in, one Hydra has even less HP than two Marines, worse DPS, Mobility, everything.
With addition of speed at lair tech, they are average support range units at best.
As I've said before, hydralisks should have a specialised attack, like the marauder against armoured, at the moment they are just expensive and fragile roaches, with basically no advantage except their DPS (which is pointless because of the speed at which they die), they are also an a-move unit with no interesting micro required.
They need a special ability or a specific purpose other than 1-a.
guys PLEASE listen to me about the hydralisk, because you guys don't get it, we DON'T NEED 7 RANGE HYDRALISK OR A BWS HYDRLAISK OR MAKING THE HYDRALISK HAVE A SPECIAL ABILITY.
Just make 6 range the default range and remove Grooved spines.
Want to know why the hydralisk sucks? because of the nerfs. Undo the nerfs and build in the range upgrade and Zerg might finally build hydralisk abit more frequently because they would be a decent unit.
If theres someone who knows alot about the hydralisk and ultralisk and alot of SC2 stuff its me lol.
BTW for those who think blizzard "fixed" the infestor(they only properly fixed the IT part in HOTS ) by making funguls range 8 let me ask you this:
Can you still mass infestors and win? Does fungul still root and has a 2.0 radius?
IF you answered yes to those things then they DIDN'Tproperly fix it.
I've been talking about how to fix the hydralisk for 2 years, I know they need to do, and its so fustratingly easy.
On December 17 2012 02:37 Zergrusher wrote: guys PLEASE listen to me about the hydralisk, because you guys don't get it, we DON'T NEED 7 RANGE HYDRALISK OR A BWS HYDRLAISK OR MAKING THE HYDRALISK HAVE A SPECIAL ABILITY.
Just make 6 range the default range and remove Grooved spines.
Want to know why the hydralisk sucks? because of the nerfs. Undo the nerfs and build in the range upgrade and Zerg might finally build hydralisk abit more frequently because they would be a decent unit.
If theres someone who knows alot about the hydralisk and ultralisk and alot of SC2 stuff its me lol.
BTW for those who think blizzard "fixed" the infestor(they only fixed the IT part) by making funguls range 8 let me ask you this:
Can you still mass infestors and win? Does fungul still root and has a 2.0 radius?
IF you answered yes to those things then they DIDN'Tproperly fix it.
I've been talking about how to fix the hydralisk for 2 years, I know they need to do, and its so fustratingly easy.
Ofc the unnerfed hydralisk is better. It's a better roach. That's it. There is nothing to it. If you buff the tankiness of the hydralisk, you basically remove the need to do anything but mass hydras (if you buff them to the point were they are viable). There is really nothing to it.
We don't need an early game roach and a mid-lategame hydralisk. We need two seperate units, each with it's on strength and with synergy. The cool thing about roaches and hydras has always been, that the dps/health ratio was designed in a way that roach/hydra beats pure roach or pure hydra, once you can afford hydras. If you just buff every aspect of the hydralisk, guess what's going to be the best combination of those units: pure hydralisks.
What the hydralisk (probably, though it could be fine with vipers and speed) needs is a way TO NOT DIE AGAINST FOCUS FIRE. No matter how you put it, 6range Hydralisks will become worthless in the longrun, if they can't dodge storms and fungals and run away from marines and flanks. The speed upgrade is a crucial addition for this. But if you fight 9range colossi and 9range storms and 5-6range stalker/stimmed bio, the opponent can just right click hydras, no matter how much stuff you put in front of them. A higher (lategame9 range would contribute to more micro to pull them out of focusfire range more quickly. Hence, lose a bit of damage, to make your hydras stay in combat longer, because suddenly your opponent MUST kill the ling/roach/ultra buffer first.
Even more, roach/hydra rushes aren't bad in WoL. Buffing their dps/HP would just strengthen such allins, which are basically just about "does he have the tech units, or doesn't he".
On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote: Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk.
I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now.
cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster.
The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently.
Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range.
you know what i am saying is true.
Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia.
its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point:
Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit.
Anymore simple and its using Collosi.
No, w/ range upgrade AND speed boost, Zs can do hydra roach rushes like in WoL beta again. ;(
No, just no.
The Problem was the roach in the beta, if you think for a second you would realise this.
The hydralisk got nerfed for no reason, when it was the roach back then that was the problem.
Want to know why the roach even exists? Because Of the small maps,the better marines, and warp gate mechanic, zerg needed a durable unit to survive it all.
the 1 supply was to make this unit feel Swarmy, but its 2 armor was for the durability.
how they nerfed it is pretty funny all they did was switch the supply cost with the armor level.
So you can thank the roach for 2 things
1) Making the hydralisk be worse
2) No more hatch tech burrow.
The roach truely was Zergs "savoir" back in beta in more ways then one. The infestor became the bandaid unit when hydralisk got worse and ultralisk just didn't do good splash damage( they still don't and I'll make a post about this in due time).
Deep down you know what i am saying is true, and theres also plenty of information and gameplay that proves it.
oh and 1 last thing The roach Hydra pushes were strong BECAUSE THE ROACH WAS STRONG.
and don't you find it funny how people say "roach hydra" and "infestor Broodlord" theres a reason why the roach and infestor are put first, because they caused the most problems/are problems.
Sorry, apart from the part with the WoL beta nerfs, everything you write is just speculation. The roach was probably long time in the game before blizzard really thought about whether the maps they were using would be balanced. (they actually commented a cuple of times that they are surprised about tournaments still using some of their maps) Burrow tech might have gone to Lair just because OLs aren't Detectors anymore (burrow blocking Hatcheries) or because of banelings. After all, in the first alpha variations, roaches did regenerate unburrowed as well and the burrowregeneration was implemented after burrow was already at lair.
The Roach/Hydra pushes were strong. But would they be bad for the game these days? I mean, people keep on commenting (and I agree) that Zerg should be that swarmy race that sends wave after wave and uses its superior production, instead of turtling to a better techball... Well, in such a game pushes like roach/hydra MUST be possible. Even more they MUST be able to do reasonable damage. Also, are they worse gameplaywise than the new variation that is a direct result of the roach changes - 200/200 roach? After all, with 3range roaches (instead of the 4range that was a compensation for the 2supply), the firepower of bigger roach balls would be roughly 3/4th of the recent situation. (though I do believe 2supply is fine. But I'm heavily questioning the 4range and thinking about how awesome marines and chargelots or zealots with FF support are against roaches these days, the 1armor). For the Hydralisk, I wouldn't be too sure that they still suck. Like, Acer_Bly did some cool 2base Hydra expand builds in WoL (hydras instead of roaches) and with the new lairspeed, you can now do those builds and afterwards go out on the map with hydras and attack walls/front line zealots. If the army comes out, you retreat (something that wasn't possible before).
I do agree that roach/hydra in the lategame is still in a really awkward spot - it is one of the worst maxed army compositions in the game. And though Viper/Infestor/Corruptor support is possible, I do believe that you still must switch completly out of the core composition and go 100% Hivetech/Infestor to stand a chance against Gateway+Tech and Biomech/Mech compositions - not just in direct combat, but also in real gameplay.
You do realise the reason why burrow is not hatch tech is because of roaches and the burrow regen right?
ok let me ask you this how practical is givng the roach a burrow regen ability BEFORE lair tech, when at lair tech all the roach upgrades and burrow are unlocked?
Actaully solving the roach is fairly easy.
Step 1) remove burrow regen, and have tunneling claws(lair tech give the roach the ability+ faster burrow regen Step 2) While burrowed tunnel claw roaches get +1 armor Step 3) Move borrow to hatch tech and remove the unburrow attack delay.
Very simple and also brings back the concept of the roach as a durable, burrow regen ambusher.
And "Speculation" isn't speculation Everything i said is true because its in game and in patch notes,
RH pushes were strong in WOL's beta Blizzard nerfs roaches and hydralisk as a responce The roach was the main problem, the hydralisk wasn't and got caught in the Balance crossfire. Here we are now with Hydralisk that are lack luster and are worse then what they were in the past.
On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote: Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk.
I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now.
cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster.
The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently.
Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range.
you know what i am saying is true.
Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia.
its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point:
Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit.
Anymore simple and its using Collosi.
No, w/ range upgrade AND speed boost, Zs can do hydra roach rushes like in WoL beta again. ;(
No, just no.
The Problem was the roach in the beta, if you think for a second you would realise this.
The hydralisk got nerfed for no reason, when it was the roach back then that was the problem.
Want to know why the roach even exists? Because Of the small maps,the better marines, and warp gate mechanic, zerg needed a durable unit to survive it all.
the 1 supply was to make this unit feel Swarmy, but its 2 armor was for the durability.
how they nerfed it is pretty funny all they did was switch the supply cost with the armor level.
So you can thank the roach for 2 things
1) Making the hydralisk be worse
2) No more hatch tech burrow.
The roach truely was Zergs "savoir" back in beta in more ways then one. The infestor became the bandaid unit when hydralisk got worse and ultralisk just didn't do good splash damage( they still don't and I'll make a post about this in due time).
Deep down you know what i am saying is true, and theres also plenty of information and gameplay that proves it.
oh and 1 last thing The roach Hydra pushes were strong BECAUSE THE ROACH WAS STRONG.
and don't you find it funny how people say "roach hydra" and "infestor Broodlord" theres a reason why the roach and infestor are put first, because they caused the most problems/are problems.
Sorry, apart from the part with the WoL beta nerfs, everything you write is just speculation. The roach was probably long time in the game before blizzard really thought about whether the maps they were using would be balanced. (they actually commented a cuple of times that they are surprised about tournaments still using some of their maps) Burrow tech might have gone to Lair just because OLs aren't Detectors anymore (burrow blocking Hatcheries) or because of banelings. After all, in the first alpha variations, roaches did regenerate unburrowed as well and the burrowregeneration was implemented after burrow was already at lair.
The Roach/Hydra pushes were strong. But would they be bad for the game these days? I mean, people keep on commenting (and I agree) that Zerg should be that swarmy race that sends wave after wave and uses its superior production, instead of turtling to a better techball... Well, in such a game pushes like roach/hydra MUST be possible. Even more they MUST be able to do reasonable damage. Also, are they worse gameplaywise than the new variation that is a direct result of the roach changes - 200/200 roach? After all, with 3range roaches (instead of the 4range that was a compensation for the 2supply), the firepower of bigger roach balls would be roughly 3/4th of the recent situation. (though I do believe 2supply is fine. But I'm heavily questioning the 4range and thinking about how awesome marines and chargelots or zealots with FF support are against roaches these days, the 1armor). For the Hydralisk, I wouldn't be too sure that they still suck. Like, Acer_Bly did some cool 2base Hydra expand builds in WoL (hydras instead of roaches) and with the new lairspeed, you can now do those builds and afterwards go out on the map with hydras and attack walls/front line zealots. If the army comes out, you retreat (something that wasn't possible before).
I do agree that roach/hydra in the lategame is still in a really awkward spot - it is one of the worst maxed army compositions in the game. And though Viper/Infestor/Corruptor support is possible, I do believe that you still must switch completly out of the core composition and go 100% Hivetech/Infestor to stand a chance against Gateway+Tech and Biomech/Mech compositions - not just in direct combat, but also in real gameplay.
You do realise the reason why burrow is not hatch tech is because of roaches and the burrow regen right?
ok let me ask you this how practical is givng the roach a burrow regen ability BEFORE lair tech, when at lair tech all the roach upgrades and burrow are unlocked?
Actaully solving the roach is fairly easy.
Step 1) remove burrow regen, and have tunneling claws(lair tech give the roach the ability+ faster burrow regen Step 2) While burrowed tunnel claw roaches get +1 armor Step 3) Move borrow to hatch tech and remove the unburrow attack delay.
Very simple and also brings back the concept of the roach as a durable, burrow regen ambusher.
And "Speculation" isn't speculation Everything i said is true because its in game and in patch notes,
RH pushes were strong in WOL's beta Blizzard nerfs roaches and hydralisk as a responce The roach was the main problem, the hydralisk wasn't and got caught in the Balance crossfire. Here we are now with Hydralisk that are lack luster and are worse then what they were in the past.
Simply not true. You have not a single proof, that blizzard hadn't planed for a lair burrow before they changed the roach from a fast regenerating to a burrow regenerating unit. It's like DTs that now require their own techbuilding but in BW didn't. Tell me why? (answer: because blizzard wanted it that way and thought it would fit them better)
And no, the roach was never meant to be a burrow harass unit. Blizzard has always stated they wanted to give zerg something a little beefier before Ultralisks. (makes total sense in a game with hellions and reapers and autosurrounding hydrashredding-zealots) The burrow movement was meant as a midgame addition, to make roaches more interesting than just small tanky antiground units.
On December 14 2012 15:44 dgwow wrote: I'd like to see some changes made to
Battlecruiers - not as scary late game, give them an ability like warp drive in battlestar galactica (like stalker blink but slower), that would look really cool, and increase their damage output
Nydus - make this more HP so that it can withstand worker attacks, and less resource requirement.
Carriers - buff this also so we see more carrier play
The carrier was already buffed secretly in the last patch and is actually a lot stronger now. Voidray/carrier/tempest/templar will kill any army and is probably the strongest composition in hots at least in pvz. If zerg lets a toss get that army the zerg will never kill it.
If history has shown us anything, it's that people WILL figure out a way to safely get that army. Then there'll be much complaining about Protoss having an unbeatable lategame composition, and Protoss players saying it's payback for Infestor/Broodlord.
I'm not looking forward to it.
"Unbeatable compositions" are fine if that side doesn't have map control and it takes a lot of time and money to acquire.
Then they are solveable.
The problem with BL infestor is that zerg holds the cards going into lategame and it is not particularly hard to make that combination. Zergs can afford to lose that army more than once and be perfectly fine because their eco can so easily grow out of control. There's no way to chip at it. The parallel I am thinking of is BW Flash doom pushes. In those, toss would be forced to throw economy and some moments of micro magic to make it work along with engagements in the right areas. In turn, Flash had been chipped at all game and forced to sit back and harass while the map was being taken over and gateways were being planted everywhere.
Still, Not a big fan of air when it is going to come down to a giant mass of corrupters throwing themselves into the wall. Maybe hydra infestor would see more play chipping at interceptors.
On December 17 2012 02:57 Big J wrote: A higher (lategame9 range would contribute to more micro to pull them out of focusfire range more quickly. Hence, lose a bit of damage, to make your hydras stay in combat longer, because suddenly your opponent MUST kill the ling/roach/ultra buffer first.
Even more, roach/hydra rushes aren't bad in WoL. Buffing their dps/HP would just strengthen such allins, which are basically just about "does he have the tech units, or doesn't he".
A range 9 hydra would be insane, I don't think this would be the right answer because of how powerful they would become. I imagine you could easily kite air, pick off workers from cliffs, use them as cliff defenders on armys moving up ramps. If AoE is the problem maybe give them an ability that activate a countdown that starts when they move out of AoE that increases their life regeneration or gives them a base amount of life back when hit zero. So if they are hit by a storm and move out of the storm a countdown starts that when hits zero gives them life regeneration of life.
On December 17 2012 02:57 Big J wrote: A higher (lategame9 range would contribute to more micro to pull them out of focusfire range more quickly. Hence, lose a bit of damage, to make your hydras stay in combat longer, because suddenly your opponent MUST kill the ling/roach/ultra buffer first.
Even more, roach/hydra rushes aren't bad in WoL. Buffing their dps/HP would just strengthen such allins, which are basically just about "does he have the tech units, or doesn't he".
A range 9 hydra would be insane, I don't think this would be the right answer because of how powerful they would become. I imagine you could easily kite air, pick off workers from cliffs, use them as cliff defenders on armys moving up ramps. If AoE is the problem maybe give them an ability that activate a countdown that starts when they move out of AoE that increases their life regeneration or gives them a base amount of life back when hit zero. So if they are hit by a storm and move out of the storm a countdown starts that when hits zero gives them life regeneration of life.
He's talking about hive tech, basically the hydra he is talking about needs to be a viable option compared to ultras and broodlords. I actually think range 9 hydra on hive tech would be pretty awesome to see, and an interesting option, much more enjoyable to watch than broodlords, thats for sure.
Range +1, Gas down to 35 and +10HP seems reasonable to me imo. My main gripe with Hydras was that they were too gas heavy. As for their life expectancy, they're meant to be glass cannons... That's why you use Roachs/Zerglings as meat shields.
Grooved Spines can increase their range to +7 at Hive tech however. +9 range is ridiculous.
Hydra should have 6 range w/o upgrade and have their 10 nerfed health point back. Nothing imba here just simple tweaking that make this unit viable. Of course range upgrade is removed of the game But please don't argue that +10 hp make it insanely good it's just 90 hp for a 100/50 unit.
On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote: What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk?
And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack.
They can be used for assault attacks the same way lings can. Zerg is about overwhelming with numbers not having huge meaty units.
No they can't, because they cost too much for what they can do. Nobody will use Hydras for those kind of things, and that is the reason why you don't see pure Hydra, but support with cheap units that soak up damage for them, like Lings or Roaches.
Hydralisks are cheap, and with Zerg's insane production mechanics they can be mass produced like any other unit.
Hydralisks are cheap? You are either a bad troll or don't know what you are talking about. Nobody is talking about mass production, if I have the money, I can mass produce the Ultralisks, that doesn't mean that they are cheap.
Hydras are 100/50/2, and there are few units that they don't lose straight up fight to. One Hydra is strong as two Marines when they are at 0-0 upgrades, except that it doesn't have a stim, but +1 range and a bit less HP. When the upgrades start to kick in, one Hydra has even less HP than two Marines, worse DPS, Mobility, everything.
With addition of speed at lair tech, they are average support range units at best.
Yes. Hydralisks are relatively cheap. There are few units that Zerglings and Marines beat in a fight too, and people assault with those relatively often. Ultralisks are on the other end of the spectrum, and people assault with those too. Your argument really doesn't hold if you think "ability to 1v1" has a correlation to being able to assault. We're not discussing what style of a-move will guarantee you a 100% win like you seem to think Hydralisks have a "god-given" right to.
Not because of what it does, as I think that having a turbo is a nice touch for them. But because it is only a ridiculously short 20 second cooldown, and lasts 8 seconds of those 20 seconds. Therefore Medivacs can basically be speed boosted for almost half of the total time they are in the game.
That means you should always turn it on whenever it comes off cooldown, since it will be available again so quickly. Because remember, these are ingame seconds, which are faster than normal seconds. The time that you are forced to wait between speed boosts, is less than the duration of stimpack. There is almost no strategy to it, and almost no decision-making.
They should make the speed boost more consequential, either by increasing both the duration and cooldown, or by changing it to use energy. Energy would make a lot more sense, since you would be able to completely control when you want to use it or not, and because Medivacs ALREADY HAVE ENERGY! It makes no sense to add a cooldown ability to a unit that already has an energy ability.
On December 17 2012 06:56 Fig wrote: The Medivac speed boost just looks silly.
Not because of what it does, as I think that having a turbo is a nice touch for them. But because it is only a ridiculously short 20 second cooldown, and lasts 8 seconds of those 20 seconds. Therefore Medivacs can basically be speed boosted for almost half of the total time they are in the game.
That means you should always turn it on whenever it comes off cooldown, since it will be available again so quickly. Because remember, these are ingame seconds, which are faster than normal seconds. The time that you are forced to wait between speed boosts, is less than the duration of stimpack. There is almost no strategy to it, and almost no decision-making.
They should make the speed boost more consequential, either by increasing both the duration and cooldown, or by changing it to use energy. Energy would make a lot more sense, since you would be able to completely control when you want to use it or not, and because Medivacs ALREADY HAVE ENERGY! It makes no sense to add a cooldown ability to a unit that already has an energy ability.
I agree with this. I speed boost my medivacs right as they leave the starport so they reinforce faster, I speed boost to micro in the middle of fights, and then I speed boost to escape with few losses. It's pretty dumb.
I think the speed boost should just burn energy at a fairly fast pace (faster than banshee cloak for example) and have no activation cost. So you would burn 10 energy for every in-game second or so, and it either deactivates when the medivac runs out of energy or when you do so manually. I think this would allow for really interesting tactics in trading off healing ability with speed, since with a full medivac you could zoom across the map for a drop, but when you arrive there will be no energy and so the drop will be much less powerful.
On December 17 2012 06:56 Fig wrote: The Medivac speed boost just looks silly.
Not because of what it does, as I think that having a turbo is a nice touch for them. But because it is only a ridiculously short 20 second cooldown, and lasts 8 seconds of those 20 seconds. Therefore Medivacs can basically be speed boosted for almost half of the total time they are in the game.
That means you should always turn it on whenever it comes off cooldown, since it will be available again so quickly. Because remember, these are ingame seconds, which are faster than normal seconds. The time that you are forced to wait between speed boosts, is less than the duration of stimpack. There is almost no strategy to it, and almost no decision-making.
They should make the speed boost more consequential, either by increasing both the duration and cooldown, or by changing it to use energy. Energy would make a lot more sense, since you would be able to completely control when you want to use it or not, and because Medivacs ALREADY HAVE ENERGY! It makes no sense to add a cooldown ability to a unit that already has an energy ability.
Completely disagree. The current state is nice, because it raises the skill cap. Part of the reason BW's skill cap was so well-crafted and yet so difficult was because there was always things that you needed to constantly and simultaneously be doing.
Increasing the cooldown and the duration doesn't change the purpose of the ability, but makes it easier to "master".
Example numbers: 5 second duration with 15 second cool is superior to 10 second duration with 30 second cooldown.
In the current state a noobie can use it, and he can use it well, but can he get the amount of utility out of it that a pro will? Nope, and that is good for the game. In what you're proposing there would be less of a difference between GM and plat when it comes to the ability.
The only thing it DOES need is better visual feedback as to when the effect starts and stops. This way players will be able to micro it more intuitively without decreasing the skill cap of the ability.
On December 17 2012 02:57 Big J wrote: A higher (lategame9 range would contribute to more micro to pull them out of focusfire range more quickly. Hence, lose a bit of damage, to make your hydras stay in combat longer, because suddenly your opponent MUST kill the ling/roach/ultra buffer first.
Even more, roach/hydra rushes aren't bad in WoL. Buffing their dps/HP would just strengthen such allins, which are basically just about "does he have the tech units, or doesn't he".
A range 9 hydra would be insane, I don't think this would be the right answer because of how powerful they would become. I imagine you could easily kite air, pick off workers from cliffs, use them as cliff defenders on armys moving up ramps. If AoE is the problem maybe give them an ability that activate a countdown that starts when they move out of AoE that increases their life regeneration or gives them a base amount of life back when hit zero. So if they are hit by a storm and move out of the storm a countdown starts that when hits zero gives them life regeneration of life.
He's talking about hive tech, basically the hydra he is talking about needs to be a viable option compared to ultras and broodlords. I actually think range 9 hydra on hive tech would be pretty awesome to see, and an interesting option, much more enjoyable to watch than broodlords, thats for sure.
9 in my post should be ")" Talking about a possible 7range upgrade on hive :-)
On December 17 2012 06:56 Fig wrote: The Medivac speed boost just looks silly.
Not because of what it does, as I think that having a turbo is a nice touch for them. But because it is only a ridiculously short 20 second cooldown, and lasts 8 seconds of those 20 seconds. Therefore Medivacs can basically be speed boosted for almost half of the total time they are in the game.
That means you should always turn it on whenever it comes off cooldown, since it will be available again so quickly. Because remember, these are ingame seconds, which are faster than normal seconds. The time that you are forced to wait between speed boosts, is less than the duration of stimpack. There is almost no strategy to it, and almost no decision-making.
They should make the speed boost more consequential, either by increasing both the duration and cooldown, or by changing it to use energy. Energy would make a lot more sense, since you would be able to completely control when you want to use it or not, and because Medivacs ALREADY HAVE ENERGY! It makes no sense to add a cooldown ability to a unit that already has an energy ability.
Completely disagree. The current state is nice, because it raises the skill cap. Part of the reason BW's skill cap was so well-crafted and yet so difficult was because there was always things that you needed to constantly and simultaneously be doing.
Increasing the cooldown and the duration doesn't change the purpose of the ability, but makes it easier to "master".
Example numbers: 5 second duration with 15 second cool is superior to 10 second duration with 30 second cooldown.
In the current state a noobie can use it, and he can use it well, but can he get the amount of utility out of it that a pro will? Nope, and that is good for the game. In what you're proposing there would be less of a difference between GM and plat when it comes to the ability.
The only thing it DOES need is better visual feedback as to when the effect starts and stops. This way players will be able to micro it more intuitively without decreasing the skill cap of the ability.
Sorry. That first idea about increasing the duration and cooldown was just one that would make people actually think about when they should use it, and was given as an example of a quick change that would make the decision-making process more essential.
The actual best change would be to make it cost energy, as I also outlined above. I just gave that other rudimentary idea because I figured people might find a change to using energy too drastic, but you ignored that part of it, so maybe I should have emphasized it more.
Energy would be more intuitive design-wise, it would be more intuitive for all players. It would encourage more decision-making as there would be tension between healing and boosting, it would allow for more freedom with when you can use it, because it would be a simple toggle on and off, and would really show the difference in skill between players. That would be the ideal solution in my eyes.
Looks like the classic colossus PvP numbers battle is going to turn into a Tempest war, with some sort of zealot/stalker ground army, I can't really see sentries being viable anymore in the late game, unless you have 4 stable bases with full gas saturation. Don't really see why they needed to kill the colossus so hard in PvP, it just seems like suicide to make them now, but I'll definitely need to play a handful of games to get a more firm grasp on the match up now.
On December 17 2012 02:57 Big J wrote: A higher (lategame9 range would contribute to more micro to pull them out of focusfire range more quickly. Hence, lose a bit of damage, to make your hydras stay in combat longer, because suddenly your opponent MUST kill the ling/roach/ultra buffer first.
Even more, roach/hydra rushes aren't bad in WoL. Buffing their dps/HP would just strengthen such allins, which are basically just about "does he have the tech units, or doesn't he".
A range 9 hydra would be insane, I don't think this would be the right answer because of how powerful they would become. I imagine you could easily kite air, pick off workers from cliffs, use them as cliff defenders on armys moving up ramps. If AoE is the problem maybe give them an ability that activate a countdown that starts when they move out of AoE that increases their life regeneration or gives them a base amount of life back when hit zero. So if they are hit by a storm and move out of the storm a countdown starts that when hits zero gives them life regeneration of life.
He's talking about hive tech, basically the hydra he is talking about needs to be a viable option compared to ultras and broodlords. I actually think range 9 hydra on hive tech would be pretty awesome to see, and an interesting option, much more enjoyable to watch than broodlords, thats for sure.
9 in my post should be ")" Talking about a possible 7range upgrade on hive :-)
Haha, thats good. reading you suggest range 9 hydralisks was going to make me completely disregard any balance talk from you from this point forward.
On December 17 2012 06:56 Fig wrote: The Medivac speed boost just looks silly.
Not because of what it does, as I think that having a turbo is a nice touch for them. But because it is only a ridiculously short 20 second cooldown, and lasts 8 seconds of those 20 seconds. Therefore Medivacs can basically be speed boosted for almost half of the total time they are in the game.
That means you should always turn it on whenever it comes off cooldown, since it will be available again so quickly. Because remember, these are ingame seconds, which are faster than normal seconds. The time that you are forced to wait between speed boosts, is less than the duration of stimpack. There is almost no strategy to it, and almost no decision-making.
They should make the speed boost more consequential, either by increasing both the duration and cooldown, or by changing it to use energy. Energy would make a lot more sense, since you would be able to completely control when you want to use it or not, and because Medivacs ALREADY HAVE ENERGY! It makes no sense to add a cooldown ability to a unit that already has an energy ability.
Completely disagree. The current state is nice, because it raises the skill cap. Part of the reason BW's skill cap was so well-crafted and yet so difficult was because there was always things that you needed to constantly and simultaneously be doing.
Increasing the cooldown and the duration doesn't change the purpose of the ability, but makes it easier to "master".
Example numbers: 5 second duration with 15 second cool is superior to 10 second duration with 30 second cooldown.
In the current state a noobie can use it, and he can use it well, but can he get the amount of utility out of it that a pro will? Nope, and that is good for the game. In what you're proposing there would be less of a difference between GM and plat when it comes to the ability.
The only thing it DOES need is better visual feedback as to when the effect starts and stops. This way players will be able to micro it more intuitively without decreasing the skill cap of the ability.
Sorry. That first idea about increasing the duration and cooldown was just one that would make people actually think about when they should use it, and was given as an example of a quick change that would make the decision-making process more essential.
The actual best change would be to make it cost energy, as I also outlined above. I just gave that other rudimentary idea because I figured people might find a change to using energy too drastic, but you ignored that part of it, so maybe I should have emphasized it more.
Energy would be more intuitive design-wise, it would be more intuitive for all players. It would encourage more decision-making as there would be tension between healing and boosting, it would allow for more freedom with when you can use it, because it would be a simple toggle on and off, and would really show the difference in skill between players. That would be the ideal solution in my eyes.
I do think the medivac boost seems too strong but with all the new stuff other race been getting it hard to measure what should stay and what shouldnt. Since the medivac boost was given to terran because zerg and protoss got more option at defending drop (mutas buff, toss better air and recall) to give bio terran an equal footing. If they were to revert the muta changes or nerf it a little then a medivac boost CD increase should be considered. This is the problem with adding alot of new stuff at once since by nerfing one, you must nerf the other to composate for the reason why you added the other ability in. I was getting the impression a few days ago about how strong medivac were until I saw how amazing ultralisk are and Dragon was dropping like mad sniping many hatchery but the zerg was perfectly fine and eventually just walk in with ultras and smash dragon.
So I believe looking at how the mutas buff plays out first or the other change plays out first should be considered before looking at medivac boost.
On December 17 2012 06:56 Fig wrote: The Medivac speed boost just looks silly.
Not because of what it does, as I think that having a turbo is a nice touch for them. But because it is only a ridiculously short 20 second cooldown, and lasts 8 seconds of those 20 seconds. Therefore Medivacs can basically be speed boosted for almost half of the total time they are in the game.
That means you should always turn it on whenever it comes off cooldown, since it will be available again so quickly. Because remember, these are ingame seconds, which are faster than normal seconds. The time that you are forced to wait between speed boosts, is less than the duration of stimpack. There is almost no strategy to it, and almost no decision-making.
They should make the speed boost more consequential, either by increasing both the duration and cooldown, or by changing it to use energy. Energy would make a lot more sense, since you would be able to completely control when you want to use it or not, and because Medivacs ALREADY HAVE ENERGY! It makes no sense to add a cooldown ability to a unit that already has an energy ability.
Completely disagree. The current state is nice, because it raises the skill cap. Part of the reason BW's skill cap was so well-crafted and yet so difficult was because there was always things that you needed to constantly and simultaneously be doing.
Increasing the cooldown and the duration doesn't change the purpose of the ability, but makes it easier to "master".
Example numbers: 5 second duration with 15 second cool is superior to 10 second duration with 30 second cooldown.
In the current state a noobie can use it, and he can use it well, but can he get the amount of utility out of it that a pro will? Nope, and that is good for the game. In what you're proposing there would be less of a difference between GM and plat when it comes to the ability.
The only thing it DOES need is better visual feedback as to when the effect starts and stops. This way players will be able to micro it more intuitively without decreasing the skill cap of the ability.
Sorry. That first idea about increasing the duration and cooldown was just one that would make people actually think about when they should use it, and was given as an example of a quick change that would make the decision-making process more essential.
The actual best change would be to make it cost energy, as I also outlined above. I just gave that other rudimentary idea because I figured people might find a change to using energy too drastic, but you ignored that part of it, so maybe I should have emphasized it more.
Energy would be more intuitive design-wise, it would be more intuitive for all players. It would encourage more decision-making as there would be tension between healing and boosting, it would allow for more freedom with when you can use it, because it would be a simple toggle on and off, and would really show the difference in skill between players. That would be the ideal solution in my eyes.
I do think the medivac boost seems too strong but with all the new stuff other race been getting it hard to measure what should stay and what shouldnt. Since the medivac boost was given to terran because zerg and protoss got more option at defending drop (mutas buff, toss better air and recall) to give bio terran an equal footing. If they were to revert the muta changes or nerf it a little then a medivac boost CD increase should be considered. This is the problem with adding alot of new stuff at once since by nerfing one, you must nerf the other to composate for the reason why you added the other ability in. I was getting the impression a few days ago about how strong medivac were until I saw how amazing ultralisk are and Dragon was dropping like mad sniping many hatchery but the zerg was perfectly fine and eventually just walk in with ultras and smash dragon.
So I believe looking at how the mutas buff plays out first or the other change plays out first should be considered before looking at medivac boost.
What I am talking about has nothing to do with how strong the ability is. No one knows the state of balance at the moment.
I am focusing on the implementation of the boost, which I believe could be made much more interesting and intuitive by using energy instead of a cooldown.
On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote: What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk?
And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack.
They can be used for assault attacks the same way lings can. Zerg is about overwhelming with numbers not having huge meaty units.
No they can't, because they cost too much for what they can do. Nobody will use Hydras for those kind of things, and that is the reason why you don't see pure Hydra, but support with cheap units that soak up damage for them, like Lings or Roaches.
Hydralisks are cheap, and with Zerg's insane production mechanics they can be mass produced like any other unit.
Hydralisks are cheap? You are either a bad troll or don't know what you are talking about. Nobody is talking about mass production, if I have the money, I can mass produce the Ultralisks, that doesn't mean that they are cheap.
Hydras are 100/50/2, and there are few units that they don't lose straight up fight to. One Hydra is strong as two Marines when they are at 0-0 upgrades, except that it doesn't have a stim, but +1 range and a bit less HP. When the upgrades start to kick in, one Hydra has even less HP than two Marines, worse DPS, Mobility, everything.
With addition of speed at lair tech, they are average support range units at best.
Yes. Hydralisks are relatively cheap. There are few units that Zerglings and Marines beat in a fight too, and people assault with those relatively often. Ultralisks are on the other end of the spectrum, and people assault with those too. Your argument really doesn't hold if you think "ability to 1v1" has a correlation to being able to assault. We're not discussing what style of a-move will guarantee you a 100% win like you seem to think Hydralisks have a "god-given" right to.
No, Hydralisks aren't cheap for what they do. Zerglings are really cheap, but they aren't that strong, their main strength is their speed, they lose to a lot of units in a straight battle, on the other hand there are only a few units that cost efficiently win vs. Marines, completely opposite of the Hydralisks, so no, your claims are without the evidence. And don't put the words in my mouth, never said anything about "1v1", just were comparing the cost of one Hydralisk and two Marines, and how Marines are actually stronger while also 50 gas cheaper.
And all this thing started about Hydralisks having burrowed movement, which wouldn't solve anything at all, nor it would improve the gameplay.
I think it would be reasonable to give hydras instant shot, like marines.
As much as I hate the mechanic and would prefer that no unit have smartfire, if Blizzard is determined to keep it on marines it should really go on some of the other balled ranged dps like hydras. That would be quite a significant buff.
Native range to 6 and grooved spines to hive (for 7) would be okay too.
On December 13 2012 07:46 silentzero wrote: ZvZ match up with Mutas, it feels like BW once again lol
ZvZ will never be like bw. Go watch a game, standard was 5-6 drones mining minerals that is like 8-9 in sc2 and normal zvz ended after 5-6 minutes. So no sc2 ZvZ will never feel like bw.
On December 16 2012 18:19 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Ultras are Zerg colossi in HoTs except without cliff-walk and targetable by air. Did I mention the 5 armor and any ranged unit will be creamed when hit FG and B.cloud? Auto-win button is back for Zerg. BW circle of IMBA is back. I like it.
User was warned for this post
? No race in bw had 'superiority'. Some match-ups are considered to have a small advantage for one race, but it's the opposite in another match-up.
I just hope Seeker missile have splash damage back on. It is just too similar to Yamato Cannon now. Splash damage with seeker missile but lesser damage so the opponent needs to micro the units away. Maybe slightly reduce casting range if proven too imba. Terran does not need another high damage single target spell.
And Flash has been using Raven in WOL. Slowly proving it as a true successor to the science vessel. Seeker missiles on the banelings and infested terran eggs were EPIC!
On December 17 2012 08:47 RinconH wrote: Making Medivac speedboost cost energy would actually help against toss because feedback wont kill them when they enter base
Making it work like Banshee/Ghost cloaking would be a lot better in my opinion. 25 energy to use and then slowly degenerating energy, instead of being able to use it every time it comes off cooldown.
Especially with how much better medivacs are with the Caduceus Reactor change.
On December 17 2012 08:47 RinconH wrote: Making Medivac speedboost cost energy would actually help against toss because feedback wont kill them when they enter base
Making it work like Banshee/Ghost cloaking would be a lot better in my opinion. 25 energy to use and then slowly degenerating energy, instead of being able to use it every time it comes off cooldown.
Especially with how much better medivacs are with the Caduceus Reactor change.
It's a double edged sword. It's so hard to kill fucking medivacs now, even with blink stalkers. So by making it not cost energy you're giving the toss another way to kill the medivac which is needed. They'll probably make the boost an upgrade.
I think it's unintuitive to have the speed boost ability cost energy when medivacs rely on energy to heal which is arguably the baseline functionality of the unit. It would be like proposing stim to cost HP when marines also lost HP on every basic attack too.
On December 17 2012 15:19 DemigodcelpH wrote: I think it's unintuitive to have the speed boost ability cost energy when medivacs rely on energy to heal which is arguably the baseline functionality of the unit. It would be like proposing stim to cost HP when marines also lost HP on every basic attack too.
You mean like how the Oracle pulsar beam attack costs energy and how it's other spells cost energy too? Because that unit is the closest thing to how the Medivac works.
On December 17 2012 21:28 kaNt- wrote: I think medivac speed boost ability is really overkill. Is it really necessary?
I play Mech anyways but I really love it.
It means against any player with any form of anti air you can drop without it needing to die every time.
Late game for example with zerg who has mutalisks in WoL, if you drop you're basically throwing the units away as your dropship will never manage to escape. Also now Mutas and Pheonix's are faster as well it discourages drop play even more.
On December 17 2012 21:28 kaNt- wrote: I think medivac speed boost ability is really overkill. Is it really necessary?
I play Mech anyways but I really love it.
It means against any player with any form of anti air you can drop without it needing to die every time.
Late game for example with zerg who has mutalisks in WoL, if you drop you're basically throwing the units away as your dropship will never manage to escape. Also now Mutas and Pheonix's are faster as well it discourages drop play even more.
Well, I almost never saw in my life a Protoss player get phoenix against Terran... I think the cost of the SG it´s way too much. But now it is a viable option to counter the mass speed boost of the medivacs. But if the P doesn´t get phoenix, drops are going to be way more devastating. The speed boost is even with the pheonix speed, so while the medivac has the ability activated phoenix can´t kill medivacs which sounds absurd.
On December 17 2012 21:28 kaNt- wrote: I think medivac speed boost ability is really overkill. Is it really necessary?
I play Mech anyways but I really love it.
It means against any player with any form of anti air you can drop without it needing to die every time.
Late game for example with zerg who has mutalisks in WoL, if you drop you're basically throwing the units away as your dropship will never manage to escape. Also now Mutas and Pheonix's are faster as well it discourages drop play even more.
Well, I almost never saw in my life a Protoss player get phoenix against Terran... I think the cost of the SG it´s way too much. But now it is a viable option to counter the mass speed boost of the medivacs. But if the P doesn´t get phoenix, drops are going to be way more devastating. The speed boost is even with the pheonix speed, so while the medivac has the ability activated phoenix can´t kill medivacs which sounds absurd.
This is HoTS where Terran should hopefully be able to go mech, meaning pheonix's and stargate will become much more viable against Terran. I'm not really talking from a WoL standpoint as it's pointless basing any changes to HoTS on what happens in WoL as it's an entirely new game.
Drops are not more devestating against toss with Bio other than maybe a heal increase either, just because a drop can get away doesn't mean it's going to do any more damage to you, it just means you defend better in the first place and if they get away, you've still defended the drop as they're not in your base anymore.
It means that is much more difficult to deny the medivacs to actually drop in your base, this applies to Protoss and Zerg as well. Now toss has to rely too much in stargate, which is not bad. However the stargate units aren´t too exciting or dynamic. I feel like toss needs to have an air unit with AoE.
On December 17 2012 21:28 kaNt- wrote: I think medivac speed boost ability is really overkill. Is it really necessary?
Bio player can use a bit of love overall. P and Z have become really good at stopping medivacs, dropping is really risky and less seen. Blizzard want to see it more, thus the ability. We can nerf it in the future, but the fact that's it's there is cool
i feel that the medivac healing boost is too strong, id much rather see siege tank or some other terran unit boosted
i dont think it will make terrans happy to make mmm for another two years. this is a problem especially at the lower levels of play, where mmm is dominant because its easy, you can do it in all matchups, and its way harder to counter than to play this way (especially below platinum)
also it makes engagements even more volatile, since if your army is just barely too small to take on the terran mmm ball you will die horribly and the mmm ball will only shrink slightly and continue to steamroll you once its fully healed again
On December 17 2012 22:38 summerloud wrote: i feel that the medivac healing boost is too strong, id much rather see siege tank or some other terran unit boosted
i dont think it will make terrans happy to make mmm for another two years. this is a problem especially at the lower levels of play, where mmm is dominant because its easy, you can do it in all matchups, and its way harder to counter than to play this way (especially below platinum)
also it makes engagements even more volatile, since if your army is just barely too small to take on the terran mmm ball you will die horribly and the mmm ball will only shrink slightly and continue to steamroll you once its fully healed again
But it's entertaining to watch and with superduper airmech turtling incoming in TvT, bio needs at least a boost in this MU.
On December 17 2012 23:25 kaNt- wrote: I hope Blizzard focus on bio with Terran, cause mech is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO damn boring to play/watch. Especially TvT.
I guess it comes down to personal opinion but I still believe and always will do watching mech is much more exciting than watching bio.
I am not a fan of the ease of use of the medivac boost. At first I thought it should cost energy or have a longer cool down or what have you, but another option might be that you need to actually click where you want to boost to (similar to how you blink) and the medivacs will boost in that direction for however many seconds. It's a small change, and seems like it wouldn't be hard for players to use, but at the same time, it would make it slightly more difficult for lower level players.
Yesterday a played a TvT. Our macro was nearly identical, and we both went bio with very minor differences. I won because the other guy forgot to upgrade medivac healing. I had like a 70 supply lead after the big battle was over.
On December 17 2012 23:25 kaNt- wrote: I hope Blizzard focus on bio with Terran, cause mech is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO damn boring to play/watch. Especially TvT.
Funny, I just watched a HoTs TvT on Husky's channel last night that went for almost a full 60 minutes.
I watched the entire thing, for the entire hour, and I was thoroughly entertained the whole way through.
Totally sick actually. Much more interesting than WoL. To each his own ...
i dont want to make a thread for this so ill post it here. Heres all the balance ideas i have for HOTS.
im just posting this because i wanna hear some opinions if you think these are good ideas or not cuz ill take what i think are my top3 best ideas and post them alot on the b.net forums.
So if u wanna help me pick 1-2 of my ideas and If you think something is a really bad idea tell me why, or a really good idea tell me why. wont bother explaining the *why*, ill just post my ultimate conclusions and if you wanna know the *why* behind a certain conclusion ask me and ill say my reasoning
Seeker Missile:
Energy cost 125 Range 11 flight speed reduced, flight time is infinite so it always strikes its target, very slowly increases speed. flight speed starts at 2.5 and increases by 0.5 every 5 seconds damage is 100 to initial target, 20 damage in 2.0 aoe (not scaling like current HSM, 20 flat aoe damage)
Ghost Snipe / Cloak:
Snipe 100 damage for 100 energy, refunds 25 when used against psionic. 30 second cooldown. Ghost cloak is permanent and uses no energy once upgraded. Ghost cloak upgrade cost is 250/250
There might be some mass ghost imbalance against zerg by sniping overseers (possibly a fix could be to give overseers a innate -75% resistance to spells)
Reapers / Mutas:
seem to be heading in the right direction. The increased reaper speed and regen is nice for early game power. I believe these units are not complete yet but they are definitely heading in the right direction. I feel a few more changes to each unit as good as the previous changes should hopefully turn these units into strong harassment options that are still useful in armies but are not overpowered.
Medivac healing rate increase:
I dont think its that overpowered. Seems to be a nice boost but considering mass fungals/banelings/broodlords OR collossi/storm splash the healing boost isnt that massive of a change (who cares about an extra 5 health per second when hundreds of splash damage is being thrown out)
The medivac heal does seem a bit too strong in the midgame (but balanced lategame) and it should possibly be a fusion core upgrade
Vipers:
Cloud removed, HP highly increased (blizzard can balance the numbers), costs 2food, no longer psionic, energy removed, abduct spell is 30 second cooldown no energy required. cost is 100/150. now moves at 3.3 speed
Vipers now have a 11range anti-building acid attack that attacks only buildings and applies a stacking spell damage acid to buildings. blizzard can balance the numbers.
*cloud is just impossible to really balance properly. vipers cloud will either suck or force mass air vs zerg every game. IMO the above viper is a much more exciting unit
Mothership Core:
too strong against early aggression. Recall not needed. recall removed, recall should be a lategame spell. nexus cannon removed.
Mothership should be built at cyber core, 2minute buildtime, it should cost as much as 2stalkers (250/100/4) with roughly the strength of 2 stalkers, flying, stalker speed, and 5range.
I feel the cheap quick air unit makes it so protoss is unkillable early game, where as terran and zerg are still killable, imo that makes for boring games where there is no risk of loss before 11 minutes. Which is why i suggest the 2 minute mscore buildtime.
new mcore spells,
50energy, teleport the core itself to any friendly building. allows for some early mscore harassment which could be exciting 50energy, slightly increase attackspeed by 20% for 20 seconds to be slightly stronger vs allin 50energy, some detection for 20 seconds
all-in-all a mothership core should represent possibly the strength of ~3 stalkers for the price of ~2, that seems like a alright unit to add to protoss as their weak-hero-unit midgame, then they get a strong-hero-unit lategame in the mothership
widow mines:
having these target air is just horrible. they should be ground-only space controllers that act as the needed partner to tanks, so tanks and mines combined together should provide true ground based positional exciting play that viewers want, and then their supply can be reduced to 1 and other areas buffed to compensate.
Cost: 75/25/1
buildtime: 20 seconds, can be reactored
burrow time: 10 seconds
damage: mine instantly shoots a missile at any unit that comes within 3range and deals 100 splash magic damage in a 3.0 aoe of that unit. this missile is FIRED INSTANTLY but there is a 0.5 second detonation time. This means there is overkill if you stack too many mines in an area, generally an area will only need a few mines.
if you put 10 mines in an area it would have the same effect as just 2-3 mines there, meaning players are do not benefit from massing mines in a single area. but mines are still strong if you just get a few of them combined with your army.
mine clearing tactics will be powerful against mines with speedlings or chargelots but a couple mines combined with tanks will still be strong even with the clearing tactics as the cost of mines is cheap if used smartly.
after firing the missile, the mines have a 60 second cooldown period where they are unable to move and are no longer cloaked. after 60 seconds they recharge and can move and unburrow and are cloaked when burrowed
MINES CAN NO LONGER be "switched off", while burrowed the detonate missile is autocast and automatic, meaning players cannot turn off mines to avoid mine clearing.
Mothership , vortex:
yes I feel vortex should be removed. Think of new spells to add to the mothership
one idea i have for a mothership spell is a 50energy map teleport spell to teleport the mothership anywhere on the map. This means for 150 energy a mothership can instantly teleport anywhere on the map and recall an army. This may seem overpowered, but given the long buildtime and cost of the mothership and its a one-time-suicide use, i think this could create some very exciting games. Mothership cannot cast spells for 10seconds after teleporting.
and another spell idea for the mothership is a 50energy combat boost that increases speed to 4.0 and doubles damage for 20 seconds. so it could do some cool harassment for 50energy then teleport away for 50energy. Seems cool to me, more exciting than VORTEX*LOL
so yes, please remove vortex blizzard
swarmhosts:
I feel the swarmhosts should probably get a 100/100 upgrade at hive to make locusts fly and target ground units (not air). This wouldnt be that overpowered given 7range pheonix that are super strong against light, and thors that are strong against light. Swarmhosts itself are pretty weak and hard to use so i feel this should be added into the game and then balanced accordingly (probably slight buffs to other races anti-air if its overpowered but i dont think it will be)
infestor:
fungal should not be a projectile. 8range is enough of a nerf
i feel keeping fungals high damage is great given the nerfs to fungal range, and the nerfs to IT. making the IT no longer scale is IMO a good change, since auto turrets also dont scale. Infestors will become a support caster and no longer massed, considering 6 infestors can still blanket an army with fungal to deal tons of damage, i feel infestors will be in a good place in WoL and the zerg will need a huge army to backup his 6 infestors, so infestors will be a good support caster that can output high damage with fungal but IMO it wont be overpowered anymore
Nydus:
network now costs 50/100 (+50 for drone) but has 110 seconds increased buildtime. nydus worms can simply be casted anywhere on the map without vision, if something is blocking the worm, the worm gets automatically placed (pushing the unit) or if a building is there the worm says "cannot be placed"
zerg can only own/control one nydus network. if a network is building or exists and zerg tries to build another network, the game says "cannot make more than 1 network"
nydus worms have a 30 second cooldown and cost 50/50 to place.
when nydus worms are placed it says "nydus worm detected" for the enemy and it pings an area on the map where the worm is.
nydus networks and worms are permanently revealed to the enemy always (like buildings after all hatcheries are dead)
nydus unload rate increased by 30%
nydus network has 1000 increased health
zerg drops are 100/100 cost but have 100 seconds extra researchtime
i feel it looks kind of unfair on paper that protoss gets 3 units, HOWEVER when you consider the fact that the mscore could simply be "viewed as" the same unit as the mothership (so mothership and mscore still count as one unit) then that means protoss only gets 2 new units.
mothership core can simply be viewed as Nerfs and buffs to the mothership (remove vortex, buffs in early game mothership usage)
On December 18 2012 07:37 severetim wrote: i dont want to make a thread for this so ill post it here. Heres all the balance ideas i have for HOTS.
im just posting this because i wanna hear some opinions if you think these are good ideas or not cuz ill take what i think are my top3 best ideas and post them alot on the b.net forums.
So if u wanna help me pick 1-2 of my ideas and If you think something is a really bad idea tell me why, or a really good idea tell me why. wont bother explaining the *why*, ill just post my ultimate conclusions and if you wanna know the *why* behind a certain conclusion ask me and ill say my reasoning
Seeker Missile:
Energy cost 125 Range 11 flight speed reduced, flight time is infinite so it always strikes its target, very slowly increases speed. flight speed starts at 2.5 and increases by 0.5 every 5 seconds damage is 100 to initial target, 20 damage in 2.0 aoe (not scaling like current HSM, 20 flat aoe damage)
Ghost Snipe / Cloak:
Snipe 100 damage for 100 energy, refunds 25 when used against psionic. 30 second cooldown. Ghost cloak is permanent and uses no energy once upgraded. Ghost cloak upgrade cost is 250/250
There might be some mass ghost imbalance against zerg by sniping overseers (possibly a fix could be to give overseers a innate -75% resistance to spells)
Reapers / Mutas:
seem to be greatly balanced now in hots and your going in the right direction. The increased reaper speed and regen is nice for early game power.
Medivac healing rate increase:
I dont think its that overpowered. Seems to be a nice boost but considering mass fungals/banelings/broodlords OR collossi/storm splash the healing boost isnt that massive of a change (who cares about an extra 5 health per second when hundreds of splash damage is being thrown out)
The medivac heal does seem a bit too strong in the midgame (but balanced lategame) and it should possibly be a fusion core upgrade
Vipers:
Cloud removed, HP highly increased (blizzard can balance the numbers), costs 2food, no longer psionic, energy removed, abduct spell is 30 second cooldown no energy required. cost is 100/150. now moves at 3.3 speed
Vipers now have a 11range anti-building acid attack that attacks only buildings and applies a stacking spell damage acid to buildings. blizzard can balance the numbers.
*cloud is just impossible to really balance properly. vipers cloud will either suck or force mass air vs zerg every game. IMO the above viper is a much more exciting unit
Mothership Core:
too strong against early aggression. Recall not needed. recall removed, recall should be a lategame spell. nexus cannon removed.
Mothership should be built at cyber core, 2minute buildtime, it should cost as much as 2stalkers (250/100/4) with roughly the strength of 2 stalkers, flying, stalker speed, and 5range.
I feel the cheap quick air unit makes it so protoss is unkillable early game, where as terran and zerg are still killable, imo that makes for boring games where there is no risk of loss before 11 minutes. Which is why i suggest the 2 minute mscore buildtime.
new mcore spells,
50energy, teleport the core itself to any friendly building. allows for some early mscore harassment which could be exciting 50energy, slightly increase attackspeed by 20% for 20 seconds to be slightly stronger vs allin 50energy, some detection for 20 seconds
all-in-all a mothership core should represent possibly the strength of ~3 stalkers for the price of ~2, that seems like a alright unit to add to protoss as their weak-hero-unit midgame, then they get a strong-hero-unit lategame in the mothership
widow mines:
having these target air is just horrible. they should be ground-only space controllers that act as the needed partner to tanks, so tanks and mines combined together should provide true ground based positional exciting play that viewers want, and then their supply can be reduced to 1 and other areas buffed to compensate.
Cost: 75/25/1
buildtime: 20 seconds, can be reactored
burrow time: 10 seconds
damage: mine instantly shoots a missile at any unit that comes within 3range and deals 100 splash magic damage in a 3.0 aoe of that unit. this missile is FIRED INSTANTLY but there is a 0.5 second detonation time. This means there is overkill if you stack too many mines in an area, generally an area will only need a few mines.
if you put 10 mines in an area it would have the same effect as just 2-3 mines there, meaning players are do not benefit from massing mines in a single area. but mines are still strong if you just get a few of them combined with your army.
mine clearing tactics will be powerful against mines with speedlings or chargelots but a couple mines combined with tanks will still be strong even with the clearing tactics as the cost of mines is cheap if used smartly.
after firing the missile, the mines have a 60 second cooldown period where they are unable to move and are no longer cloaked. after 60 seconds they recharge and can move and unburrow and are cloaked when burrowed
MINES CAN NO LONGER be "switched off", while burrowed the detonate missile is autocast and automatic, meaning players cannot turn off mines to avoid mine clearing.
Mothership , vortex:
yes I feel vortex should be removed. Think of new spells to add to the mothership
one idea i have for a mothership spell is a 50energy map teleport spell to teleport the mothership anywhere on the map. This means for 150 energy a mothership can instantly teleport anywhere on the map and recall an army. This may seem overpowered, but given the long buildtime and cost of the mothership and its a one-time-suicide use, i think this could create some very exciting games. Mothership cannot cast spells for 10seconds after teleporting.
and another spell idea for the mothership is a 50energy combat boost that increases speed to 4.0 and doubles damage for 20 seconds. so it could do some cool harassment for 50energy then teleport away for 50energy. Seems cool to me, more exciting than VORTEX*LOL
so yes, please remove vortex blizzard
swarmhosts:
I feel the swarmhosts should probably get a 100/100 upgrade at hive to make locusts fly and target ground units (not air). This wouldnt be that overpowered given 7range pheonix that are super strong against light, and thors that are strong against light. Swarmhosts itself are pretty weak and hard to use so i feel this should be added into the game and then balanced accordingly (probably slight buffs to other races anti-air if its overpowered but i dont think it will be)
infestor:
fungal should not be a projectile. 8range is enough of a nerf
i feel keeping fungals high damage is great given the nerfs to fungal range, and the nerfs to IT. making the IT no longer scale is IMO a good change, since auto turrets also dont scale. Infestors will become a support caster and no longer massed, considering 6 infestors can still blanket an army with fungal to deal tons of damage, i feel infestors will be in a good place in WoL and the zerg will need a huge army to backup his 6 infestors, so infestors will be a good support caster that can output high damage with fungal but IMO it wont be overpowered anymore
Nydus:
network now costs 50/100 (+50 for drone) but has 110 seconds increased buildtime. nydus worms can simply be casted anywhere on the map without vision, if something is blocking the worm, the worm gets automatically placed (pushing the unit) or if a building is there the worm says "cannot be placed"
zerg can only own/control one nydus network. if a network is building or exists and zerg tries to build another network, the game says "cannot make more than 1 network"
nydus worms have a 30 second cooldown and cost 50/50 to place.
when nydus worms are placed it says "nydus worm detected" for the enemy and it pings an area on the map where the worm is.
nydus networks and worms are permanently revealed to the enemy always (like buildings after all hatcheries are dead)
nydus unload rate increased by 30%
nydus network has 1000 increased health and 5 more armor
zerg drops are 100/100 cost but have 100 seconds extra researchtime
i feel it looks kind of unfair on paper that protoss gets 3 units, HOWEVER when you consider the fact that the mscore could simply be "viewed as" the same unit as the mothership (so mothership and mscore still count as one unit) then that means protoss only gets 2 new units.
mothership core can simply be viewed as Nerfs and buffs to the mothership (remove vortex, buffs in early game mothership usage)
I'm honestly astounded how many things I found wrong with this post. Fungal->projectile was one of blizzard's smartest changes while Muta fast healing and medivac buff are some of the worst. Aoe should be dodgeable with skill, damage to units should matter.... That's just fundamental rts design.
Reapers are not fine, either, they are even more of a "rush only" unit than before, it needs more late game utility and less early game. Flying locusts would mean SH has too few counters and make it extremely good at harassment, which Zerg already has plenty of... The purpose of SH is and should be as a siege unit or possibly, a space control unit like the tank. Your change makes it more like the mutalisk.
Your proposed changes to widow mines, Nydus network are overly complicated and unintuitive. Units should be simple and visually and mechanically easy to understand, for both players and spectators. Mines do magic damage? Why? Mines are uncloaked and immobile during Cooldown? That's just too many unit specific, special rules.
Most of the stuff you suggested for ms and mscore overlap with oracles, not that I don't have a healthy contempt for mothership core. Actually, you have a good sense of WHAT units need to be changed but sadly, not how. If your proposals were a lot simpler I could get behind them a bit more.
On December 18 2012 06:17 ThirdDegree wrote: I am not a fan of the ease of use of the medivac boost. At first I thought it should cost energy or have a longer cool down or what have you, but another option might be that you need to actually click where you want to boost to (similar to how you blink) and the medivacs will boost in that direction for however many seconds. It's a small change, and seems like it wouldn't be hard for players to use, but at the same time, it would make it slightly more difficult for lower level players.
Disagree. Its insanely entertaining and increases the amount of action in the game. This is of course only from a design perspective. Balance wise is another discussion though.
On December 17 2012 23:25 kaNt- wrote: I hope Blizzard focus on bio with Terran, cause mech is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO damn boring to play/watch. Especially TvT.
Funny, I just watched a HoTs TvT on Husky's channel last night that went for almost a full 60 minutes.
I watched the entire thing, for the entire hour, and I was thoroughly entertained the whole way through.
Totally sick actually. Much more interesting than WoL. To each his own ...
Dude I think I saw this. Ryung vs ... I think it was Heart? On Ohana. Where Heart opened proxy marauder widow mine banshee and then the game transitioned into tons of mid game pushes with tank/thor and demolishing each other with widow mine flanks... Man that was a crazy game.
On December 18 2012 07:37 severetim wrote: i dont want to make a thread for this so ill post it here. Heres all the balance ideas i have for HOTS.
im just posting this because i wanna hear some opinions if you think these are good ideas or not cuz ill take what i think are my top3 best ideas and post them alot on the b.net forums.
So if u wanna help me pick 1-2 of my ideas and If you think something is a really bad idea tell me why, or a really good idea tell me why. wont bother explaining the *why*, ill just post my ultimate conclusions and if you wanna know the *why* behind a certain conclusion ask me and ill say my reasoning
Seeker Missile:
Energy cost 125 Range 11 flight speed reduced, flight time is infinite so it always strikes its target, very slowly increases speed. flight speed starts at 2.5 and increases by 0.5 every 5 seconds damage is 100 to initial target, 20 damage in 2.0 aoe (not scaling like current HSM, 20 flat aoe damage)
Ghost Snipe / Cloak:
Snipe 100 damage for 100 energy, refunds 25 when used against psionic. 30 second cooldown. Ghost cloak is permanent and uses no energy once upgraded. Ghost cloak upgrade cost is 250/250
There might be some mass ghost imbalance against zerg by sniping overseers (possibly a fix could be to give overseers a innate -75% resistance to spells)
Reapers / Mutas:
seem to be greatly balanced now in hots and your going in the right direction. The increased reaper speed and regen is nice for early game power.
Medivac healing rate increase:
I dont think its that overpowered. Seems to be a nice boost but considering mass fungals/banelings/broodlords OR collossi/storm splash the healing boost isnt that massive of a change (who cares about an extra 5 health per second when hundreds of splash damage is being thrown out)
The medivac heal does seem a bit too strong in the midgame (but balanced lategame) and it should possibly be a fusion core upgrade
Vipers:
Cloud removed, HP highly increased (blizzard can balance the numbers), costs 2food, no longer psionic, energy removed, abduct spell is 30 second cooldown no energy required. cost is 100/150. now moves at 3.3 speed
Vipers now have a 11range anti-building acid attack that attacks only buildings and applies a stacking spell damage acid to buildings. blizzard can balance the numbers.
*cloud is just impossible to really balance properly. vipers cloud will either suck or force mass air vs zerg every game. IMO the above viper is a much more exciting unit
Mothership Core:
too strong against early aggression. Recall not needed. recall removed, recall should be a lategame spell. nexus cannon removed.
Mothership should be built at cyber core, 2minute buildtime, it should cost as much as 2stalkers (250/100/4) with roughly the strength of 2 stalkers, flying, stalker speed, and 5range.
I feel the cheap quick air unit makes it so protoss is unkillable early game, where as terran and zerg are still killable, imo that makes for boring games where there is no risk of loss before 11 minutes. Which is why i suggest the 2 minute mscore buildtime.
new mcore spells,
50energy, teleport the core itself to any friendly building. allows for some early mscore harassment which could be exciting 50energy, slightly increase attackspeed by 20% for 20 seconds to be slightly stronger vs allin 50energy, some detection for 20 seconds
all-in-all a mothership core should represent possibly the strength of ~3 stalkers for the price of ~2, that seems like a alright unit to add to protoss as their weak-hero-unit midgame, then they get a strong-hero-unit lategame in the mothership
widow mines:
having these target air is just horrible. they should be ground-only space controllers that act as the needed partner to tanks, so tanks and mines combined together should provide true ground based positional exciting play that viewers want, and then their supply can be reduced to 1 and other areas buffed to compensate.
Cost: 75/25/1
buildtime: 20 seconds, can be reactored
burrow time: 10 seconds
damage: mine instantly shoots a missile at any unit that comes within 3range and deals 100 splash magic damage in a 3.0 aoe of that unit. this missile is FIRED INSTANTLY but there is a 0.5 second detonation time. This means there is overkill if you stack too many mines in an area, generally an area will only need a few mines.
if you put 10 mines in an area it would have the same effect as just 2-3 mines there, meaning players are do not benefit from massing mines in a single area. but mines are still strong if you just get a few of them combined with your army.
mine clearing tactics will be powerful against mines with speedlings or chargelots but a couple mines combined with tanks will still be strong even with the clearing tactics as the cost of mines is cheap if used smartly.
after firing the missile, the mines have a 60 second cooldown period where they are unable to move and are no longer cloaked. after 60 seconds they recharge and can move and unburrow and are cloaked when burrowed
MINES CAN NO LONGER be "switched off", while burrowed the detonate missile is autocast and automatic, meaning players cannot turn off mines to avoid mine clearing.
Mothership , vortex:
yes I feel vortex should be removed. Think of new spells to add to the mothership
one idea i have for a mothership spell is a 50energy map teleport spell to teleport the mothership anywhere on the map. This means for 150 energy a mothership can instantly teleport anywhere on the map and recall an army. This may seem overpowered, but given the long buildtime and cost of the mothership and its a one-time-suicide use, i think this could create some very exciting games. Mothership cannot cast spells for 10seconds after teleporting.
and another spell idea for the mothership is a 50energy combat boost that increases speed to 4.0 and doubles damage for 20 seconds. so it could do some cool harassment for 50energy then teleport away for 50energy. Seems cool to me, more exciting than VORTEX*LOL
so yes, please remove vortex blizzard
swarmhosts:
I feel the swarmhosts should probably get a 100/100 upgrade at hive to make locusts fly and target ground units (not air). This wouldnt be that overpowered given 7range pheonix that are super strong against light, and thors that are strong against light. Swarmhosts itself are pretty weak and hard to use so i feel this should be added into the game and then balanced accordingly (probably slight buffs to other races anti-air if its overpowered but i dont think it will be)
infestor:
fungal should not be a projectile. 8range is enough of a nerf
i feel keeping fungals high damage is great given the nerfs to fungal range, and the nerfs to IT. making the IT no longer scale is IMO a good change, since auto turrets also dont scale. Infestors will become a support caster and no longer massed, considering 6 infestors can still blanket an army with fungal to deal tons of damage, i feel infestors will be in a good place in WoL and the zerg will need a huge army to backup his 6 infestors, so infestors will be a good support caster that can output high damage with fungal but IMO it wont be overpowered anymore
Nydus:
network now costs 50/100 (+50 for drone) but has 110 seconds increased buildtime. nydus worms can simply be casted anywhere on the map without vision, if something is blocking the worm, the worm gets automatically placed (pushing the unit) or if a building is there the worm says "cannot be placed"
zerg can only own/control one nydus network. if a network is building or exists and zerg tries to build another network, the game says "cannot make more than 1 network"
nydus worms have a 30 second cooldown and cost 50/50 to place.
when nydus worms are placed it says "nydus worm detected" for the enemy and it pings an area on the map where the worm is.
nydus networks and worms are permanently revealed to the enemy always (like buildings after all hatcheries are dead)
nydus unload rate increased by 30%
nydus network has 1000 increased health and 5 more armor
zerg drops are 100/100 cost but have 100 seconds extra researchtime
i feel it looks kind of unfair on paper that protoss gets 3 units, HOWEVER when you consider the fact that the mscore could simply be "viewed as" the same unit as the mothership (so mothership and mscore still count as one unit) then that means protoss only gets 2 new units.
mothership core can simply be viewed as Nerfs and buffs to the mothership (remove vortex, buffs in early game mothership usage)
I'm honestly astounded how many things I found wrong with this post. Fungal->projectile was one of blizzard's smartest changes while Muta fast healing and medivac buff are some of the worst. Aoe should be dodgeable with skill, damage to units should matter.... That's just fundamental rts design.
Reapers are not fine, either, they are even more of a "rush only" unit than before, it needs more late game utility and less early game. Flying locusts would mean SH has too few counters and make it extremely good at harassment, which Zerg already has plenty of... The purpose of SH is and should be as a siege unit or possibly, a space control unit like the tank. Your change makes it more like the mutalisk.
Your proposed changes to widow mines, Nydus network are overly complicated and unintuitive. Units should be simple and visually and mechanically easy to understand, for both players and spectators. Mines do magic damage? Why? Mines are uncloaked and immobile during Cooldown? That's just too many unit specific, special rules.
Most of the stuff you suggested for ms and mscore overlap with oracles, not that I don't have a healthy contempt for mothership core. Actually, you have a good sense of WHAT units need to be changed but sadly, not how. If your proposals were a lot simpler I could get behind them a bit more.
At least you didn't create a thread..
thx for your thoughts. what do you think about my seeker missile and ghost ideas, overpowered or whats your thoughts?
oops i think i misworded what i meant about mutas and reapers. when i said mutas and reapers are greatly balanced i didnt mean they are "perfectly balanced" as in no more changes needed. what i meant was reapers and mutas are IMO going in the right direction and they are more balanced now than they were before so blizzard is doing a great job with the balance
so what i mean is i believe reapers and mutas STILL need a few more changes to be great complete units that are great for the game and balanced, but my point was i believe blizzards changes to the units are "going in the right direction" and i believe if blizzard changes the units a bit more they hopefully can be put in a great place as exciting harassment units that are still useful in armies and arent overpowered
my changes to the MScore are mostly because i think a pro protoss player with the current mscore should practically NEVER die or be in a bad position before 10 minutes, and i think that is bad for the game as all other races can die or be in trouble before 10 minutes (except for protoss with the mscore. its just so strong and comes so early no other race has such incredible defense. protoss doesnt even need to FFE against zerg anymore 1gate greedy expands that are immune to aggression)
I believe the MScore if it remains flying and combat in nature, virtually must takes 2 minutes after the cybercore to come out because thats how long it takes for a voidray to come out after the cybercore. So thats why i suggest making it build at the cybercore with a 120 second buildtime because that makes protoss choose between faster warpgates or a faster beefy cost effective midgame flying unit that doesnt need a stargate to be produced
as for nydus/widow mines, you have to admit the current state of balance for the mines is horrible. Its extremely hard to balance them. I tried the best i can to make the mines control space without being overpowered.
I do agree my mines are highly complicated, but given they are so strong in one regard i tried to give them weaknesses to make them managable by the enemy. i made mines pretty strong and i felt the recharge time of the mine needed a weakness considering its high splash damage for 75/25 cost, could be re-used, that re-use needed a high weakness.
when it comes to things like nydus that allow extreme map movement its hard to balance it properly without making it either suck or be overpowered. right now nydus sucks, so i tried to give it pretty large buffs (much cheaper cost) but weaknesses to compensate those buffs such as a 30 second cooldown on worms but the worms are virtually free so its a small strong aspect to zerg but they arent too overpowered and can be combated with the right resources.
i think my biggest blunder was adding the 5 armor to nydus networks. it shouldnt get any extra armor, the health is fine
i said fungal shouldnt be projectile, and i realize EMP is still a projectile. but i think the strong cloak buff i gave to ghosts means EMP should probably still be projectile for balance sake.
On December 18 2012 06:17 ThirdDegree wrote: I am not a fan of the ease of use of the medivac boost. At first I thought it should cost energy or have a longer cool down or what have you, but another option might be that you need to actually click where you want to boost to (similar to how you blink) and the medivacs will boost in that direction for however many seconds. It's a small change, and seems like it wouldn't be hard for players to use, but at the same time, it would make it slightly more difficult for lower level players.
Disagree. Its insanely entertaining and increases the amount of action in the game. This is of course only from a design perspective. Balance wise is another discussion though.
I'm not sure if it's imbalanced but it's really permissive. You can get your bio army crushed, but you'll still be able to save your medivacs, even if there are Mutas. Same thing with drops, there's almost no risk involved at all.
I'm a Muta lover but this unit feels increasingly silly every game in ZvT...
On December 18 2012 06:17 ThirdDegree wrote: I am not a fan of the ease of use of the medivac boost. At first I thought it should cost energy or have a longer cool down or what have you, but another option might be that you need to actually click where you want to boost to (similar to how you blink) and the medivacs will boost in that direction for however many seconds. It's a small change, and seems like it wouldn't be hard for players to use, but at the same time, it would make it slightly more difficult for lower level players.
Disagree. Its insanely entertaining and increases the amount of action in the game. This is of course only from a design perspective. Balance wise is another discussion though.
I'm not sure if it's imbalanced but it's really permissive. You can get your bio army crushed, but you'll still be able to save your medivacs, even if there are Mutas. Same thing with drops, there's almost no risk involved at all.
I'm a Muta lover but this unit feels increasingly silly every game in ZvT...
yeh but it still requires a lot of multitasking to never lose units and this rewards heavy APM so much in a great way. So this is why I like it from a design perspective. I like the idea of terrans with high APM just pressing that B button all the time nad having like 2-3 medivacs constantly dropping and constantly getting away with it. This is extremely entertaining to watch as observers. But of course this is just from a design perspective. We still need more testing to see whether this is op or not.
Btw the biggest differen in how terrans will play if the speed boosts costs energy compared to if it doesn't will be when they want their medivac to go from A to B. I like the idea of terrans using the speed button to quickly go from A to B as it speed up the pace of the game and rewards multitasking. I dislike the idea of terans saving up energy as this still means that they can always use the speed button to get away, but it will lead to less actionpacked games.
is it just me or does the widow mine seem like it just makes the game more un fun? just watching videos of it just seems like a really annoying unit. randomly walking into explosions all the time does not seem fun at all lol
On December 18 2012 11:14 Hider wrote: Btw the biggest differen in how terrans will play if the speed boosts costs energy compared to if it doesn't will be when they want their medivac to go from A to B. I like the idea of terrans using the speed button to quickly go from A to B as it speed up the pace of the game and rewards multitasking. I dislike the idea of terans saving up energy as this still means that they can always use the speed button to get away, but it will lead to less actionpacked games.
The game WILL be more actionpacked due to the thrusters, but it doesn't have to be at the expense of strategic depth. Some people find it exciting when players not only micro their hearts out, but exercise good decisions and outthink their opponent. Making the speed boost a tactical decision (cost energy) rather than a simple spamming exercise (cooldown) would result in a fusion that makes everyone happy. Granted, there is already some level of decision making, in that it's sometimes smart to save the booster for when you need to escape some mutas or blink stalkers. But that's a relatively one dimensional dynamic.
Let me put this a different way: wouldn't it be even MORE exciting if the Terran could sacrifice all his energy to boost ALL the way to a vulnerable location and drop even FASTER? It'd be like an ultimate explosion of pro level multitask and action packedness!
On December 18 2012 15:35 BlessedHammers wrote: is it just me or does the widow mine seem like it just makes the game more un fun? just watching videos of it just seems like a really annoying unit. randomly walking into explosions all the time does not seem fun at all lol
I'm worried about this as well. I saw one extremely entertaining TvT the other day involving widow mines. Both players were pushing and harassing like crazy, which often forced the enemy out of position and into some waiting mines. While this was cool, and allowed the momentum of the match to swing many times, it felt a bit coinflippy. Like the player who'd blundered into the mines just kind of got unlucky. However, by the end game they were both throwing down tons of scans when moving their armies, so it was less random. Then they had to use different tactics with the mines... there was one amazing moment where the attacker threw down a bunch of MULES to trap the enemy army while his widow mines came in to flank.
Basically, I think players will get better at knowing when to use detection against a mine user. Also, I'm holding out hope that Blizzard will make mines not hit air, in which case, players could easily send overseers or ravens ahead to spot the mines and react in advance.
Just out of curiosity, what if the Seeker Missile was changed to a targetable projectile? Perhaps Blizzard has already tested this, but what if enemy forces could shoot down the Missile before it reached its target? The idea behind this is: it seems the original Seeker Missile concept was revised because slow-moving targets, in particular Brood Lords, would have no way to dodge or effectively split up before the Missile did tons of damage. While I think it's cool that the new Seeker Missile can target down individual units, in particular immortals, the mechanic is, as many have said, too similar to Yamato cannon. I'm a bit uncertain whether Blizzard intends to maintain this design. If the SM can be shot down, it allows even Brood Lords a chance to escape the damage while maintaining an appropriate identity as an AOE spell. Perhaps the missile's target priority can be modeled to something like the Changeling, so enemy forces would not be able to automatically fire at it. Perhaps the energy cost can be reduced to something like 100: this way multiple SMs can be launched, so the enemy would have to work twice as hard to prevent massive damage to their army. Most interestingly, this would reinforce the Raven's identity as a "damage soaker" - both the PDD and the SM could absorb enemy fire, although they do so in different contexts. The PDD would work better against Tempests, etc. who fire slow high damage bursts, while the SM might work better against faster firing units. I really hope that Blizzard will get more creative with the SM design - as of now it seems more like a placeholder for some other ability.
On December 17 2012 23:25 kaNt- wrote: I hope Blizzard focus on bio with Terran, cause mech is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO damn boring to play/watch. Especially TvT.
Funny, I just watched a HoTs TvT on Husky's channel last night that went for almost a full 60 minutes.
I watched the entire thing, for the entire hour, and I was thoroughly entertained the whole way through.
Totally sick actually. Much more interesting than WoL. To each his own ...
Link? Couldn't find it by searching his channel with what you included in your post
On December 18 2012 15:35 BlessedHammers wrote: is it just me or does the widow mine seem like it just makes the game more un fun? just watching videos of it just seems like a really annoying unit. randomly walking into explosions all the time does not seem fun at all lol
I'm worried about this as well. I saw one extremely entertaining TvT the other day involving widow mines. Both players were pushing and harassing like crazy, which often forced the enemy out of position and into some waiting mines. While this was cool, and allowed the momentum of the match to swing many times, it felt a bit coinflippy. Like the player who'd blundered into the mines just kind of got unlucky. However, by the end game they were both throwing down tons of scans when moving their armies, so it was less random. Then they had to use different tactics with the mines... there was one amazing moment where the attacker threw down a bunch of MULES to trap the enemy army while his widow mines came in to flank.
Basically, I think players will get better at knowing when to use detection against a mine user. Also, I'm holding out hope that Blizzard will make mines not hit air, in which case, players could easily send overseers or ravens ahead to spot the mines and react in advance.
They only appear coin flippy. The 1s WM has added a lost element of BW, intimate knowledge of your army's immediate surroundings. It rewards T players for being sneaky.
WMs create the same tension that 1-4 sieged tanks hidden on cliffs and well placed spider mines used to have. No longer can one freely run down an escaping bio force or into a sieged line (extended due to WM vision).
The real difference is that unlike spider mines, widow mines reward players who have good reflexes and keep their main vision on their army.
From 10 minutes. Miya eventually pays dearly for running down Heart's stimmed MMM force.
Widow mines add a dimension to Terran like the knight does in chess.
On December 18 2012 07:37 severetim wrote: i dont want to make a thread for this so ill post it here. Heres all the balance ideas i have for HOTS.
im just posting this because i wanna hear some opinions if you think these are good ideas or not cuz ill take what i think are my top3 best ideas and post them alot on the b.net forums.
So if u wanna help me pick 1-2 of my ideas and If you think something is a really bad idea tell me why, or a really good idea tell me why. wont bother explaining the *why*, ill just post my ultimate conclusions and if you wanna know the *why* behind a certain conclusion ask me and ill say my reasoning
Seeker Missile:
Energy cost 125 Range 11 flight speed reduced, flight time is infinite so it always strikes its target, very slowly increases speed. flight speed starts at 2.5 and increases by 0.5 every 5 seconds damage is 100 to initial target, 20 damage in 2.0 aoe (not scaling like current HSM, 20 flat aoe damage)
Ghost Snipe / Cloak:
Snipe 100 damage for 100 energy, refunds 25 when used against psionic. 30 second cooldown. Ghost cloak is permanent and uses no energy once upgraded. Ghost cloak upgrade cost is 250/250
There might be some mass ghost imbalance against zerg by sniping overseers (possibly a fix could be to give overseers a innate -75% resistance to spells)
Reapers / Mutas:
seem to be heading in the right direction. The increased reaper speed and regen is nice for early game power. I believe these units are not complete yet but they are definitely heading in the right direction. I feel a few more changes to each unit as good as the previous changes should hopefully turn these units into strong harassment options that are still useful in armies but are not overpowered.
Medivac healing rate increase:
I dont think its that overpowered. Seems to be a nice boost but considering mass fungals/banelings/broodlords OR collossi/storm splash the healing boost isnt that massive of a change (who cares about an extra 5 health per second when hundreds of splash damage is being thrown out)
The medivac heal does seem a bit too strong in the midgame (but balanced lategame) and it should possibly be a fusion core upgrade
Vipers:
Cloud removed, HP highly increased (blizzard can balance the numbers), costs 2food, no longer psionic, energy removed, abduct spell is 30 second cooldown no energy required. cost is 100/150. now moves at 3.3 speed
Vipers now have a 11range anti-building acid attack that attacks only buildings and applies a stacking spell damage acid to buildings. blizzard can balance the numbers.
*cloud is just impossible to really balance properly. vipers cloud will either suck or force mass air vs zerg every game. IMO the above viper is a much more exciting unit
Mothership Core:
too strong against early aggression. Recall not needed. recall removed, recall should be a lategame spell. nexus cannon removed.
Mothership should be built at cyber core, 2minute buildtime, it should cost as much as 2stalkers (250/100/4) with roughly the strength of 2 stalkers, flying, stalker speed, and 5range.
I feel the cheap quick air unit makes it so protoss is unkillable early game, where as terran and zerg are still killable, imo that makes for boring games where there is no risk of loss before 11 minutes. Which is why i suggest the 2 minute mscore buildtime.
new mcore spells,
50energy, teleport the core itself to any friendly building. allows for some early mscore harassment which could be exciting 50energy, slightly increase attackspeed by 20% for 20 seconds to be slightly stronger vs allin 50energy, some detection for 20 seconds
all-in-all a mothership core should represent possibly the strength of ~3 stalkers for the price of ~2, that seems like a alright unit to add to protoss as their weak-hero-unit midgame, then they get a strong-hero-unit lategame in the mothership
widow mines:
having these target air is just horrible. they should be ground-only space controllers that act as the needed partner to tanks, so tanks and mines combined together should provide true ground based positional exciting play that viewers want, and then their supply can be reduced to 1 and other areas buffed to compensate.
Cost: 75/25/1
buildtime: 20 seconds, can be reactored
burrow time: 10 seconds
damage: mine instantly shoots a missile at any unit that comes within 3range and deals 100 splash magic damage in a 3.0 aoe of that unit. this missile is FIRED INSTANTLY but there is a 0.5 second detonation time. This means there is overkill if you stack too many mines in an area, generally an area will only need a few mines.
if you put 10 mines in an area it would have the same effect as just 2-3 mines there, meaning players are do not benefit from massing mines in a single area. but mines are still strong if you just get a few of them combined with your army.
mine clearing tactics will be powerful against mines with speedlings or chargelots but a couple mines combined with tanks will still be strong even with the clearing tactics as the cost of mines is cheap if used smartly.
after firing the missile, the mines have a 60 second cooldown period where they are unable to move and are no longer cloaked. after 60 seconds they recharge and can move and unburrow and are cloaked when burrowed
MINES CAN NO LONGER be "switched off", while burrowed the detonate missile is autocast and automatic, meaning players cannot turn off mines to avoid mine clearing.
Mothership , vortex:
yes I feel vortex should be removed. Think of new spells to add to the mothership
one idea i have for a mothership spell is a 50energy map teleport spell to teleport the mothership anywhere on the map. This means for 150 energy a mothership can instantly teleport anywhere on the map and recall an army. This may seem overpowered, but given the long buildtime and cost of the mothership and its a one-time-suicide use, i think this could create some very exciting games. Mothership cannot cast spells for 10seconds after teleporting.
and another spell idea for the mothership is a 50energy combat boost that increases speed to 4.0 and doubles damage for 20 seconds. so it could do some cool harassment for 50energy then teleport away for 50energy. Seems cool to me, more exciting than VORTEX*LOL
so yes, please remove vortex blizzard
swarmhosts:
I feel the swarmhosts should probably get a 100/100 upgrade at hive to make locusts fly and target ground units (not air). This wouldnt be that overpowered given 7range pheonix that are super strong against light, and thors that are strong against light. Swarmhosts itself are pretty weak and hard to use so i feel this should be added into the game and then balanced accordingly (probably slight buffs to other races anti-air if its overpowered but i dont think it will be)
infestor:
fungal should not be a projectile. 8range is enough of a nerf
i feel keeping fungals high damage is great given the nerfs to fungal range, and the nerfs to IT. making the IT no longer scale is IMO a good change, since auto turrets also dont scale. Infestors will become a support caster and no longer massed, considering 6 infestors can still blanket an army with fungal to deal tons of damage, i feel infestors will be in a good place in WoL and the zerg will need a huge army to backup his 6 infestors, so infestors will be a good support caster that can output high damage with fungal but IMO it wont be overpowered anymore
Nydus:
network now costs 50/100 (+50 for drone) but has 110 seconds increased buildtime. nydus worms can simply be casted anywhere on the map without vision, if something is blocking the worm, the worm gets automatically placed (pushing the unit) or if a building is there the worm says "cannot be placed"
zerg can only own/control one nydus network. if a network is building or exists and zerg tries to build another network, the game says "cannot make more than 1 network"
nydus worms have a 30 second cooldown and cost 50/50 to place.
when nydus worms are placed it says "nydus worm detected" for the enemy and it pings an area on the map where the worm is.
nydus networks and worms are permanently revealed to the enemy always (like buildings after all hatcheries are dead)
nydus unload rate increased by 30%
nydus network has 1000 increased health
zerg drops are 100/100 cost but have 100 seconds extra researchtime
i feel it looks kind of unfair on paper that protoss gets 3 units, HOWEVER when you consider the fact that the mscore could simply be "viewed as" the same unit as the mothership (so mothership and mscore still count as one unit) then that means protoss only gets 2 new units.
mothership core can simply be viewed as Nerfs and buffs to the mothership (remove vortex, buffs in early game mothership usage)
Glad you took your time to write all that but honestly ur wildly misinformed. Half of those changes are super random without reasoning or would make the game more 1 dimentional. Please support your reasoning If you want to be taken seriously
On December 18 2012 06:38 Empirimancer wrote: Yesterday a played a TvT. Our macro was nearly identical, and we both went bio with very minor differences. I won because the other guy forgot to upgrade medivac healing. I had like a 70 supply lead after the big battle was over.
Well that's just stupid. In the case where you both didn't just a-move into each other, you mean to say that he lost simply because he didn't get a passive upgrade? If so, I reiterate that's very stupid and completely not the direction players are expecting HoTS to go.
On December 18 2012 06:38 Empirimancer wrote: Yesterday a played a TvT. Our macro was nearly identical, and we both went bio with very minor differences. I won because the other guy forgot to upgrade medivac healing. I had like a 70 supply lead after the big battle was over.
Well that's just stupid. In the case where you both didn't just a-move into each other, you mean to say that he lost simply because he didn't get a passive upgrade? If so, I reiterate that's very stupid and completely not the direction players are expecting HoTS to go.
@Severtim
Don't post huge swathes of writing that waste every bodies time. I got to the Viper changes before realising how misinformed you were. And the Nydus Network? You do realise that there are Zergs like myself who incorporate them into our strats. How much of a nerf would it be to have a longer build time and only 1 network per worm?
On December 17 2012 23:25 kaNt- wrote: I hope Blizzard focus on bio with Terran, cause mech is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO damn boring to play/watch. Especially TvT.
I have to disagree! I would love to see some more mech in play! Especially some TvP mech. It's a very intressting and fragile type of play which's really fun to obsereve and learn from.
On December 18 2012 17:16 starimk wrote: Just out of curiosity, what if the Seeker Missile was changed to a targetable projectile? Perhaps Blizzard has already tested this, but what if enemy forces could shoot down the Missile before it reached its target? The idea behind this is: it seems the original Seeker Missile concept was revised because slow-moving targets, in particular Brood Lords, would have no way to dodge or effectively split up before the Missile did tons of damage. While I think it's cool that the new Seeker Missile can target down individual units, in particular immortals, the mechanic is, as many have said, too similar to Yamato cannon. I'm a bit uncertain whether Blizzard intends to maintain this design. If the SM can be shot down, it allows even Brood Lords a chance to escape the damage while maintaining an appropriate identity as an AOE spell. Perhaps the missile's target priority can be modeled to something like the Changeling, so enemy forces would not be able to automatically fire at it. Perhaps the energy cost can be reduced to something like 100: this way multiple SMs can be launched, so the enemy would have to work twice as hard to prevent massive damage to their army. Most interestingly, this would reinforce the Raven's identity as a "damage soaker" - both the PDD and the SM could absorb enemy fire, although they do so in different contexts. The PDD would work better against Tempests, etc. who fire slow high damage bursts, while the SM might work better against faster firing units. I really hope that Blizzard will get more creative with the SM design - as of now it seems more like a placeholder for some other ability.
I like this idea. From a spectators point of view, it would be exciting to watch. If it could also be dodged, there would also be an interesting decision to make..To dodge or to destroy..? Hope it ends up having this kind of dynamic.
On December 17 2012 23:25 kaNt- wrote: I hope Blizzard focus on bio with Terran, cause mech is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO damn boring to play/watch. Especially TvT.
Funny, I just watched a HoTs TvT on Husky's channel last night that went for almost a full 60 minutes.
I watched the entire thing, for the entire hour, and I was thoroughly entertained the whole way through.
Totally sick actually. Much more interesting than WoL. To each his own ...
Dude I think I saw this. Ryung vs ... I think it was Heart? On Ohana. Where Heart opened proxy marauder widow mine banshee and then the game transitioned into tons of mid game pushes with tank/thor and demolishing each other with widow mine flanks... Man that was a crazy game.
Oh yeah that one is dope too.
No, the one I had in mind was actually between two players I had not heard of before. He said they were high level GM. Can't say for sure about that - but the level of skill definitely warranted it.
This guy kept using nukes across the gap from his main to an inner expand on Daybreak lol. It finally won him the game imo.