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On December 16 2012 00:51 kaNt- wrote:
Protoss NEEDS a good counter to mutas NOW!
Tempest/phoenix aren´t good vs mass mutas.
Toss only can rely on HT´s, and now the mutas are faster so they can avoid storms easily and even their regen is buffed?
Blizzard please think before making these kind of buffs, or at least give toss a reliable AoE (unlike storm).
lol... how about the mothership core that turns your nexus into a cannon that can beat a ton of muta's on it's own
or
how about the phoenix that outranges the muta VERY comfortably now
muta are probably worse than before except ZvZ because the entire muta/ling style has been nerfed in ZvP and ZvT. Roach/muta was never a great combination
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On December 16 2012 01:31 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 00:51 kaNt- wrote:
Protoss NEEDS a good counter to mutas NOW!
Tempest/phoenix aren´t good vs mass mutas.
Toss only can rely on HT´s, and now the mutas are faster so they can avoid storms easily and even their regen is buffed?
Blizzard please think before making these kind of buffs, or at least give toss a reliable AoE (unlike storm).
lol... how about the mothership core that turns your nexus into a cannon that can beat a ton of muta's on it's own or how about the phoenix that outranges the muta VERY comfortably now muta are probably worse than before except ZvZ because the entire muta/ling style has been nerfed in ZvP and ZvT. Roach/muta was never a great combination
Nexus canon? are you serious? you know mass mutas can just go harass main or natural(whatever isnt cannonified)
If you open something other then stargate Ranged pheonix doesnt really help, The fleet beacon itself is 300 200 gas.(most expensive tech building in the game)
On paper your suggestions are decent but in reality are not very effective.
I for one would like stalkers damage to be changed from 10 +4 to armored to 10 +4 to light, Sure it will change the tvp dynamic but imo not that much
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omg i love muta <3 tks blizzard!!!!
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Argentina114 Posts
right now every zerg MU goes around the infestor... it does make some nice show to watch (micro intensive), and make the game interesting in many way but... EVERY SINGLE GAME?! vs all 3 races?
so maybe infestor need the nerf.. but it must come to a buff to the others options... or you will just cripple zerg on every MU... so yes... mutas, hydras, SH...
early and mid game are slowly becoming to passive... and it suck... its boring...!!!
so yes... more early aggression options are cool!! (for all 3 races please!)
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On December 16 2012 01:45 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 01:31 Markwerf wrote:On December 16 2012 00:51 kaNt- wrote:
Protoss NEEDS a good counter to mutas NOW!
Tempest/phoenix aren´t good vs mass mutas.
Toss only can rely on HT´s, and now the mutas are faster so they can avoid storms easily and even their regen is buffed?
Blizzard please think before making these kind of buffs, or at least give toss a reliable AoE (unlike storm).
lol... how about the mothership core that turns your nexus into a cannon that can beat a ton of muta's on it's own or how about the phoenix that outranges the muta VERY comfortably now muta are probably worse than before except ZvZ because the entire muta/ling style has been nerfed in ZvP and ZvT. Roach/muta was never a great combination Nexus canon? are you serious? you know mass mutas can just go harass main or natural(whatever isnt cannonified) If you open something other then stargate Ranged pheonix doesnt really help, The fleet beacon itself is 300 200 gas.(most expensive tech building in the game) On paper your suggestions are decent but in reality are not very effective. I for one would like stalkers damage to be changed from 10 +4 to armored to 10 +4 to light, Sure it will change the tvp dynamic but imo not that much
Phoenix can still outrange Mutas by 1 w/o upgrade. You want micro to be somewhat difficult, right?
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Phoenix can still outrange Mutas by 1 w/o upgrade. You want micro to be somewhat difficult, right?
They outrange Mutas by 2 without the upgrade. The micro is not that difficult.
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one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too.
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On December 16 2012 03:21 pepsimaxibon wrote:
one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too.
Sounds like a great change. Also don't archons destroy muta/lings?
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Seeing as some don't seem to get that the nexus cannon is really helpful, perhaps they should try mothership core into expand builds. If need be, you can usually always eliminate 2 points of attacks for a minute, given good mothership core positioning. If you can't defend one location or locations aided by the cannon ability, then mutas are either horribly imbalanced or you're doing something terribly wrong. The mothership core puts you in fantastic position to win base trade games, as you always have a minute of free time to make the perfect composition. Zerg should probably have to transition away from mutas against early purifier/cannon.
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On December 16 2012 05:27 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 03:21 pepsimaxibon wrote:
one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too. Sounds like a great change. Also don't archons destroy muta/lings?
Depends, when you have only a few Archons, you can go around them with Mutas since they are slow and have low range(same as Mutas), and you can magic box them like Thors, their splash is even lower than the one from Thors. But when you go with more than few Archons(5+), with proper support from Zealots and Stalkers, it can get really hard for Mutas and Lings to deal with those.
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On December 16 2012 03:21 pepsimaxibon wrote:
one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too.
Stargate tech already counters mutalisks easily, making time warp hit air isn't really necessary. Honestly I don't think Protoss needs any help against mutalisks at all; now that multiple stargates are totally viable, phoenixes have 5 range base and you can get early hallucinations to scout the spire as soon as it comes up muta tech is pointless. It only works if the Protoss plays badly. In WoL mutas beat robo but lose to twilight tech, which gives you a 50/50 chance of them working, but in HotS there are 3 viable tech paths, 2 of which beat mutas, giving you a 67% chance of getting blind countered. Even if Protoss does go for robo they can hold mutalisk attacks if they scout properly. I don't see any reason for Zerg to ever even try making mutalisks outside of ZvZ.
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On December 16 2012 02:46 mati wrote:
right now every zerg MU goes around the infestor... it does make some nice show to watch (micro intensive), and make the game interesting in many way but... EVERY SINGLE GAME?! vs all 3 races?
so maybe infestor need the nerf.. but it must come to a buff to the others options... or you will just cripple zerg on every MU... so yes... mutas, hydras, SH...
early and mid game are slowly becoming to passive... and it suck... its boring...!!!
so yes... more early aggression options are cool!! (for all 3 races please!)
Can I assume you're trolling? If you actually played HotS you would realize infestors got nerfed into oblivion and mutas and hydras both got buffed...
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On December 16 2012 09:08 Twilight Sparkle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 03:21 pepsimaxibon wrote:
one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too. Stargate tech already counters mutalisks easily, making time warp hit air isn't really necessary. Honestly I don't think Protoss needs any help against mutalisks at all; now that multiple stargates are totally viable, phoenixes have 5 range base and you can get early hallucinations to scout the spire as soon as it comes up muta tech is pointless. It only works if the Protoss plays badly. In WoL mutas beat robo but lose to twilight tech, which gives you a 50/50 chance of them working, but in HotS there are 3 viable tech paths, 2 of which beat mutas, giving you a 67% chance of getting blind countered. Even if Protoss does go for robo they can hold mutalisk attacks if they scout properly. I don't see any reason for Zerg to ever even try making mutalisks outside of ZvZ.
In HotS, Templar tech doesn't deal with Mutas at all anymore, the increased mobility combined with regeneration means that it's simply not a desirable option. Even in WoL, handling Mutas with a specific combination of Templar tech units was more of a defensive necessity than a counter. I've heard Korean progamers talk that the most crucial element of Phoenix openings in WoL is that it deters a mass Muta mid-game.
Mass phoenix with the range upgrade shut down Mutas handily (with the new Muta mobility, even 5 range Phoenix have severe issues), but they are an extremely strict and linear investment. If they are the only legitimate option Toss has left, that's just bad game design. Time Warp gives Protoss options that requires synergy and co-ordination rather than brute force, given the recent air buffs, it seems like a no brainer to extend its utility.
Given the scale of some of the experiments were seeing Blizzard take with HotS, it would be a wasted opportunity not to at least try it out.
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i don't really understand all the protoss complaining about the muta regen buff, 2 stargate phoenix with the range upgrade added later on shut mutas down completely and you gain air dominance, just need to worry about ling counters.
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On December 16 2012 11:37 death_vinegar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 09:08 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On December 16 2012 03:21 pepsimaxibon wrote:
one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too. Stargate tech already counters mutalisks easily, making time warp hit air isn't really necessary. Honestly I don't think Protoss needs any help against mutalisks at all; now that multiple stargates are totally viable, phoenixes have 5 range base and you can get early hallucinations to scout the spire as soon as it comes up muta tech is pointless. It only works if the Protoss plays badly. In WoL mutas beat robo but lose to twilight tech, which gives you a 50/50 chance of them working, but in HotS there are 3 viable tech paths, 2 of which beat mutas, giving you a 67% chance of getting blind countered. Even if Protoss does go for robo they can hold mutalisk attacks if they scout properly. I don't see any reason for Zerg to ever even try making mutalisks outside of ZvZ. In HotS, Templar tech doesn't deal with Mutas at all anymore, the increased mobility combined with regeneration means that it's simply not a desirable option. Even in WoL, handling Mutas with a specific combination of Templar tech units was more of a defensive necessity than a counter. I've heard Korean progamers talk that the most crucial element of Phoenix openings in WoL is that it deters a mass Muta mid-game. Mass phoenix with the range upgrade shut down Mutas handily (with the new Muta mobility, even 5 range Phoenix have severe issues), but they are an extremely strict and linear investment. If they are the only legitimate option Toss has left, that's just bad game design. Time Warp gives Protoss options that requires synergy and co-ordination rather than brute force, given the recent air buffs, it seems like a no brainer to extend its utility. Given the scale of some of the experiments were seeing Blizzard take with HotS, it would be a wasted opportunity not to at least try it out.
I disagree, I mean in broodwar, Protoss would generally open corsairs first due to the threat of mutas. I think it fine and people just need to adjust their play style a bit more and it too early to tell. Opening phoenix first isnt soo bad I mean it give you great map control as well just dont over produce them imo. The muta speed buff should get toned down soo in the next patch because they are a bit over the top atm.
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BTW High impact payload Doesn't get blocked by PDD's.
if you guys didn't know.
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On December 16 2012 11:37 death_vinegar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 09:08 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On December 16 2012 03:21 pepsimaxibon wrote:
one solution to the muta issue would be for oracle's time-warp to hit air too. it would make charging in with turbo dropships knowing you've got an easy escape something a bit more nuanced, too. Stargate tech already counters mutalisks easily, making time warp hit air isn't really necessary. Honestly I don't think Protoss needs any help against mutalisks at all; now that multiple stargates are totally viable, phoenixes have 5 range base and you can get early hallucinations to scout the spire as soon as it comes up muta tech is pointless. It only works if the Protoss plays badly. In WoL mutas beat robo but lose to twilight tech, which gives you a 50/50 chance of them working, but in HotS there are 3 viable tech paths, 2 of which beat mutas, giving you a 67% chance of getting blind countered. Even if Protoss does go for robo they can hold mutalisk attacks if they scout properly. I don't see any reason for Zerg to ever even try making mutalisks outside of ZvZ. In HotS, Templar tech doesn't deal with Mutas at all anymore, the increased mobility combined with regeneration means that it's simply not a desirable option. Even in WoL, handling Mutas with a specific combination of Templar tech units was more of a defensive necessity than a counter. I've heard Korean progamers talk that the most crucial element of Phoenix openings in WoL is that it deters a mass Muta mid-game. Mass phoenix with the range upgrade shut down Mutas handily (with the new Muta mobility, even 5 range Phoenix have severe issues), but they are an extremely strict and linear investment. If they are the only legitimate option Toss has left, that's just bad game design. Time Warp gives Protoss options that requires synergy and co-ordination rather than brute force, given the recent air buffs, it seems like a no brainer to extend its utility. Given the scale of some of the experiments were seeing Blizzard take with HotS, it would be a wasted opportunity not to at least try it out.
You may be right about their new regeneration rate making storms weak against mutalisks, but it's simply way too early to tell at this point. It took Protoss a while to adjust to mutalisks in WoL ZvP; for a while it was muta-ling-mass spine base trade style every game while Protoss looked completely helpless against that style. They were making blink stalkers and high templar and archons and cannons and stuff, they just didn't use them quite well enough and they couldn't win. And then they got used to playing against muta-ling and started winning consistently and Zergs stopped using it. So maybe the new regen is too good against storms, maybe it isn't. There really isn't any way to tell, and there's no reason to add new counters to mutas just because they might be too good. Also if, after giving it time and letting Protoss players figure things out and improve, twilight tech doesn't beat mutas in HotS then IMO Blizzard should be giving better muta counters to twilight tech, not the stargate tech which already counters them. That would just further pigeonhole PvZ into stargate play.
All that said, I actually like the idea of time warp hitting air; not because I think stargate tech needs to be better against mutalisks but simply because it's logical and, like you said, Blizzard are doing a lot of experimenting with HotS as it is so why not? Also I'm actually totally fine with mutalisks being useless in ZvP for now because they made for awful games, but I'd much rather see that fixed by making them balanced and interesting to watch rather than keeping them in their current unused state.
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Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk.
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On December 16 2012 11:47 EleanorRIgby wrote:
i don't really understand all the protoss complaining about the muta regen buff, 2 stargate phoenix with the range upgrade added later on shut mutas down completely and you gain air dominance, just need to worry about ling counters.
Because we are being forced by blizzard into a particular meta game. I hate what blizzard is doing to this game. They are trying to control the metagame too much instead of letting it work itself out. Now anything on the ground loses hard to mutas. We are forced to go stargate every fucking game. Oh I landed a good storm? Too bad the mutas will have full health in 80 seconds. I understand the want for stargate to be viable, but for it to be forced? That's bad game design.
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On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote:
Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk.
I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now.
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EPT
