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On December 17 2012 01:21 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 01:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 17 2012 01:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 16 2012 23:36 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 16 2012 23:26 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote:
What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk? And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack. They can be used for assault attacks the same way lings can. Zerg is about overwhelming with numbers not having huge meaty units. No they can't, because they cost too much for what they can do. Nobody will use Hydras for those kind of things, and that is the reason why you don't see pure Hydra, but support with cheap units that soak up damage for them, like Lings or Roaches. Hydralisks are cheap, and with Zerg's insane production mechanics they can be mass produced like any other unit. Hydralisks are cheap? You are either a bad troll or don't know what you are talking about. Nobody is talking about mass production, if I have the money, I can mass produce the Ultralisks, that doesn't mean that they are cheap. Hydras are 100/50/2, and there are few units that they don't lose straight up fight to. One Hydra is strong as two Marines when they are at 0-0 upgrades, except that it doesn't have a stim, but +1 range and a bit less HP. When the upgrades start to kick in, one Hydra has even less HP than two Marines, worse DPS, Mobility, everything. With addition of speed at lair tech, they are average support range units at best.
As I've said before, hydralisks should have a specialised attack, like the marauder against armoured, at the moment they are just expensive and fragile roaches, with basically no advantage except their DPS (which is pointless because of the speed at which they die), they are also an a-move unit with no interesting micro required.
They need a special ability or a specific purpose other than 1-a.
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guys PLEASE listen to me about the hydralisk, because you guys don't get it, we DON'T NEED 7 RANGE HYDRALISK OR A BWS HYDRLAISK OR MAKING THE HYDRALISK HAVE A SPECIAL ABILITY.
Just make 6 range the default range and remove Grooved spines.
and undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Hydralisk_(Wings_of_Liberty)
Want to know why the hydralisk sucks? because of the nerfs. Undo the nerfs and build in the range upgrade and Zerg might finally build hydralisk abit more frequently because they would be a decent unit.
If theres someone who knows alot about the hydralisk and ultralisk and alot of SC2 stuff its me lol.
BTW for those who think blizzard "fixed" the infestor(they only properly fixed the IT part in HOTS ) by making funguls range 8 let me ask you this:
Can you still mass infestors and win?
Does fungul still root and has a 2.0 radius?
IF you answered yes to those things then they DIDN'Tproperly fix it.
I've been talking about how to fix the hydralisk for 2 years, I know they need to do, and its so fustratingly easy.
User was banned for this post.
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On December 17 2012 02:37 Zergrusher wrote:guys PLEASE listen to me about the hydralisk, because you guys don't get it, we DON'T NEED 7 RANGE HYDRALISK OR A BWS HYDRLAISK OR MAKING THE HYDRALISK HAVE A SPECIAL ABILITY. Just make 6 range the default range and remove Grooved spines. and undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Hydralisk_(Wings_of_Liberty)Want to know why the hydralisk sucks? because of the nerfs. Undo the nerfs and build in the range upgrade and Zerg might finally build hydralisk abit more frequently because they would be a decent unit. If theres someone who knows alot about the hydralisk and ultralisk and alot of SC2 stuff its me lol. BTW for those who think blizzard "fixed" the infestor(they only fixed the IT part) by making funguls range 8 let me ask you this: Can you still mass infestors and win? Does fungul still root and has a 2.0 radius? IF you answered yes to those things then they DIDN'Tproperly fix it. I've been talking about how to fix the hydralisk for 2 years, I know they need to do, and its so fustratingly easy.
Ofc the unnerfed hydralisk is better. It's a better roach. That's it. There is nothing to it. If you buff the tankiness of the hydralisk, you basically remove the need to do anything but mass hydras (if you buff them to the point were they are viable). There is really nothing to it.
We don't need an early game roach and a mid-lategame hydralisk. We need two seperate units, each with it's on strength and with synergy. The cool thing about roaches and hydras has always been, that the dps/health ratio was designed in a way that roach/hydra beats pure roach or pure hydra, once you can afford hydras.
If you just buff every aspect of the hydralisk, guess what's going to be the best combination of those units: pure hydralisks.
What the hydralisk (probably, though it could be fine with vipers and speed) needs is a way TO NOT DIE AGAINST FOCUS FIRE. No matter how you put it, 6range Hydralisks will become worthless in the longrun, if they can't dodge storms and fungals and run away from marines and flanks. The speed upgrade is a crucial addition for this. But if you fight 9range colossi and 9range storms and 5-6range stalker/stimmed bio, the opponent can just right click hydras, no matter how much stuff you put in front of them. A higher (lategame9 range would contribute to more micro to pull them out of focusfire range more quickly. Hence, lose a bit of damage, to make your hydras stay in combat longer, because suddenly your opponent MUST kill the ling/roach/ultra buffer first.
Even more, roach/hydra rushes aren't bad in WoL. Buffing their dps/HP would just strengthen such allins, which are basically just about "does he have the tech units, or doesn't he".
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On December 16 2012 19:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 16:24 Zergrusher wrote:On December 16 2012 16:18 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On December 16 2012 16:09 Zergrusher wrote:On December 16 2012 15:55 Crawdad wrote:On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote:
Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk. I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now. cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster. The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently. Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range. you know what i am saying is true. Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia. its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point: Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit. Anymore simple and its using Collosi. No, w/ range upgrade AND speed boost, Zs can do hydra roach rushes like in WoL beta again. ;( No, just no. The Problem was the roach in the beta, if you think for a second you would realise this. The hydralisk got nerfed for no reason, when it was the roach back then that was the problem. Want to know why the roach even exists? Because Of the small maps,the better marines, and warp gate mechanic, zerg needed a durable unit to survive it all. the 1 supply was to make this unit feel Swarmy, but its 2 armor was for the durability. how they nerfed it is pretty funny all they did was switch the supply cost with the armor level. So you can thank the roach for 2 things 1) Making the hydralisk be worse 2) No more hatch tech burrow. The roach truely was Zergs "savoir" back in beta in more ways then one. The infestor became the bandaid unit when hydralisk got worse and ultralisk just didn't do good splash damage( they still don't and I'll make a post about this in due time). Deep down you know what i am saying is true, and theres also plenty of information and gameplay that proves it. oh and 1 last thing The roach Hydra pushes were strong BECAUSE THE ROACH WAS STRONG. and don't you find it funny how people say "roach hydra" and "infestor Broodlord" theres a reason why the roach and infestor are put first, because they caused the most problems/are problems. Sorry, apart from the part with the WoL beta nerfs, everything you write is just speculation. The roach was probably long time in the game before blizzard really thought about whether the maps they were using would be balanced. (they actually commented a cuple of times that they are surprised about tournaments still using some of their maps) Burrow tech might have gone to Lair just because OLs aren't Detectors anymore (burrow blocking Hatcheries) or because of banelings. After all, in the first alpha variations, roaches did regenerate unburrowed as well and the burrowregeneration was implemented after burrow was already at lair. The Roach/Hydra pushes were strong. But would they be bad for the game these days? I mean, people keep on commenting (and I agree) that Zerg should be that swarmy race that sends wave after wave and uses its superior production, instead of turtling to a better techball... Well, in such a game pushes like roach/hydra MUST be possible. Even more they MUST be able to do reasonable damage. Also, are they worse gameplaywise than the new variation that is a direct result of the roach changes - 200/200 roach? After all, with 3range roaches (instead of the 4range that was a compensation for the 2supply), the firepower of bigger roach balls would be roughly 3/4th of the recent situation. (though I do believe 2supply is fine. But I'm heavily questioning the 4range and thinking about how awesome marines and chargelots or zealots with FF support are against roaches these days, the 1armor). For the Hydralisk, I wouldn't be too sure that they still suck. Like, Acer_Bly did some cool 2base Hydra expand builds in WoL (hydras instead of roaches) and with the new lairspeed, you can now do those builds and afterwards go out on the map with hydras and attack walls/front line zealots. If the army comes out, you retreat (something that wasn't possible before). I do agree that roach/hydra in the lategame is still in a really awkward spot - it is one of the worst maxed army compositions in the game. And though Viper/Infestor/Corruptor support is possible, I do believe that you still must switch completly out of the core composition and go 100% Hivetech/Infestor to stand a chance against Gateway+Tech and Biomech/Mech compositions - not just in direct combat, but also in real gameplay.
You do realise the reason why burrow is not hatch tech is because of roaches and the burrow regen right?
ok let me ask you this how practical is givng the roach a burrow regen ability BEFORE lair tech, when at lair tech all the roach upgrades and burrow are unlocked?
Actaully solving the roach is fairly easy.
Step 1) remove burrow regen, and have tunneling claws(lair tech give the roach the ability+ faster burrow regen
Step 2) While burrowed tunnel claw roaches get +1 armor
Step 3) Move borrow to hatch tech and remove the unburrow attack delay.
Very simple and also brings back the concept of the roach as a durable, burrow regen ambusher.
And "Speculation" isn't speculation Everything i said is true because its in game and in patch notes,
RH pushes were strong in WOL's beta
Blizzard nerfs roaches and hydralisk as a responce
The roach was the main problem, the hydralisk wasn't and got caught in the Balance crossfire.
Here we are now with Hydralisk that are lack luster and are worse then what they were in the past.
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On December 17 2012 03:00 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 19:30 Big J wrote:On December 16 2012 16:24 Zergrusher wrote:On December 16 2012 16:18 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On December 16 2012 16:09 Zergrusher wrote:On December 16 2012 15:55 Crawdad wrote:On December 16 2012 15:25 Zergrusher wrote:
Blizzard really need to fix the hydralisk in WOL and in HOTS.
This is how they can/should do it.
1) Increase range to 6 and remove the grooved spine upgrade.
2) Undo the 2 nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's Beta.
With the increased air threats, and the fact that people still rather not make hydralisk, blizzard HAS to listen to me already about the hydralisk. I would like if these buffs were implemented, but Hydras are actually halfway decent now. cmon even you know that if these buffs happend hydralisk would be better, you just stuck with thinking blizzard "helped" the hydralisk, when all they did was make the sucky unit move faster. The nerfs the hydralisk got in WOL's beta ruined the unit, thats why it sucks currently. Grooved spines is a un-needed upgrade they should have 6 range as default range. you know what i am saying is true. Remember the hydralisk nerfs in WOL Beta? If not then please look them up on liquidpedia. its so simple how to help the hydralisk, I've been saying it for 2 whole years at this point: Get rid of the range upgrade and have 6 range be the default range. and Undo the past nerfs to the unit. Anymore simple and its using Collosi. No, w/ range upgrade AND speed boost, Zs can do hydra roach rushes like in WoL beta again. ;( No, just no. The Problem was the roach in the beta, if you think for a second you would realise this. The hydralisk got nerfed for no reason, when it was the roach back then that was the problem. Want to know why the roach even exists? Because Of the small maps,the better marines, and warp gate mechanic, zerg needed a durable unit to survive it all. the 1 supply was to make this unit feel Swarmy, but its 2 armor was for the durability. how they nerfed it is pretty funny all they did was switch the supply cost with the armor level. So you can thank the roach for 2 things 1) Making the hydralisk be worse 2) No more hatch tech burrow. The roach truely was Zergs "savoir" back in beta in more ways then one. The infestor became the bandaid unit when hydralisk got worse and ultralisk just didn't do good splash damage( they still don't and I'll make a post about this in due time). Deep down you know what i am saying is true, and theres also plenty of information and gameplay that proves it. oh and 1 last thing The roach Hydra pushes were strong BECAUSE THE ROACH WAS STRONG. and don't you find it funny how people say "roach hydra" and "infestor Broodlord" theres a reason why the roach and infestor are put first, because they caused the most problems/are problems. Sorry, apart from the part with the WoL beta nerfs, everything you write is just speculation. The roach was probably long time in the game before blizzard really thought about whether the maps they were using would be balanced. (they actually commented a cuple of times that they are surprised about tournaments still using some of their maps) Burrow tech might have gone to Lair just because OLs aren't Detectors anymore (burrow blocking Hatcheries) or because of banelings. After all, in the first alpha variations, roaches did regenerate unburrowed as well and the burrowregeneration was implemented after burrow was already at lair. The Roach/Hydra pushes were strong. But would they be bad for the game these days? I mean, people keep on commenting (and I agree) that Zerg should be that swarmy race that sends wave after wave and uses its superior production, instead of turtling to a better techball... Well, in such a game pushes like roach/hydra MUST be possible. Even more they MUST be able to do reasonable damage. Also, are they worse gameplaywise than the new variation that is a direct result of the roach changes - 200/200 roach? After all, with 3range roaches (instead of the 4range that was a compensation for the 2supply), the firepower of bigger roach balls would be roughly 3/4th of the recent situation. (though I do believe 2supply is fine. But I'm heavily questioning the 4range and thinking about how awesome marines and chargelots or zealots with FF support are against roaches these days, the 1armor). For the Hydralisk, I wouldn't be too sure that they still suck. Like, Acer_Bly did some cool 2base Hydra expand builds in WoL (hydras instead of roaches) and with the new lairspeed, you can now do those builds and afterwards go out on the map with hydras and attack walls/front line zealots. If the army comes out, you retreat (something that wasn't possible before). I do agree that roach/hydra in the lategame is still in a really awkward spot - it is one of the worst maxed army compositions in the game. And though Viper/Infestor/Corruptor support is possible, I do believe that you still must switch completly out of the core composition and go 100% Hivetech/Infestor to stand a chance against Gateway+Tech and Biomech/Mech compositions - not just in direct combat, but also in real gameplay. You do realise the reason why burrow is not hatch tech is because of roaches and the burrow regen right? ok let me ask you this how practical is givng the roach a burrow regen ability BEFORE lair tech, when at lair tech all the roach upgrades and burrow are unlocked? Actaully solving the roach is fairly easy. Step 1) remove burrow regen, and have tunneling claws(lair tech give the roach the ability+ faster burrow regen Step 2) While burrowed tunnel claw roaches get +1 armor Step 3) Move borrow to hatch tech and remove the unburrow attack delay. Very simple and also brings back the concept of the roach as a durable, burrow regen ambusher. And "Speculation" isn't speculation Everything i said is true because its in game and in patch notes, RH pushes were strong in WOL's beta Blizzard nerfs roaches and hydralisk as a responce The roach was the main problem, the hydralisk wasn't and got caught in the Balance crossfire. Here we are now with Hydralisk that are lack luster and are worse then what they were in the past.
Simply not true. You have not a single proof, that blizzard hadn't planed for a lair burrow before they changed the roach from a fast regenerating to a burrow regenerating unit. It's like DTs that now require their own techbuilding but in BW didn't. Tell me why? (answer: because blizzard wanted it that way and thought it would fit them better)
And no, the roach was never meant to be a burrow harass unit. Blizzard has always stated they wanted to give zerg something a little beefier before Ultralisks. (makes total sense in a game with hellions and reapers and autosurrounding hydrashredding-zealots) The burrow movement was meant as a midgame addition, to make roaches more interesting than just small tanky antiground units.
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On December 14 2012 17:21 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 17:07 blade55555 wrote:On December 14 2012 15:44 dgwow wrote:
I'd like to see some changes made to
Battlecruiers - not as scary late game, give them an ability like warp drive in battlestar galactica (like stalker blink but slower), that would look really cool, and increase their damage output
Nydus - make this more HP so that it can withstand worker attacks, and less resource requirement.
Carriers - buff this also so we see more carrier play
The carrier was already buffed secretly in the last patch and is actually a lot stronger now. Voidray/carrier/tempest/templar will kill any army and is probably the strongest composition in hots at least in pvz. If zerg lets a toss get that army the zerg will never kill it. If history has shown us anything, it's that people WILL figure out a way to safely get that army. Then there'll be much complaining about Protoss having an unbeatable lategame composition, and Protoss players saying it's payback for Infestor/Broodlord. I'm not looking forward to it.
"Unbeatable compositions" are fine if that side doesn't have map control and it takes a lot of time and money to acquire.
Then they are solveable.
The problem with BL infestor is that zerg holds the cards going into lategame and it is not particularly hard to make that combination. Zergs can afford to lose that army more than once and be perfectly fine because their eco can so easily grow out of control. There's no way to chip at it. The parallel I am thinking of is BW Flash doom pushes. In those, toss would be forced to throw economy and some moments of micro magic to make it work along with engagements in the right areas. In turn, Flash had been chipped at all game and forced to sit back and harass while the map was being taken over and gateways were being planted everywhere.
Still, Not a big fan of air when it is going to come down to a giant mass of corrupters throwing themselves into the wall. Maybe hydra infestor would see more play chipping at interceptors.
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On December 17 2012 02:57 Big J wrote:
A higher (lategame9 range would contribute to more micro to pull them out of focusfire range more quickly. Hence, lose a bit of damage, to make your hydras stay in combat longer, because suddenly your opponent MUST kill the ling/roach/ultra buffer first.
Even more, roach/hydra rushes aren't bad in WoL. Buffing their dps/HP would just strengthen such allins, which are basically just about "does he have the tech units, or doesn't he".
A range 9 hydra would be insane, I don't think this would be the right answer because of how powerful they would become. I imagine you could easily kite air, pick off workers from cliffs, use them as cliff defenders on armys moving up ramps. If AoE is the problem maybe give them an ability that activate a countdown that starts when they move out of AoE that increases their life regeneration or gives them a base amount of life back when hit zero. So if they are hit by a storm and move out of the storm a countdown starts that when hits zero gives them life regeneration of life.
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On December 17 2012 04:10 Glowinglight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 02:57 Big J wrote:
A higher (lategame9 range would contribute to more micro to pull them out of focusfire range more quickly. Hence, lose a bit of damage, to make your hydras stay in combat longer, because suddenly your opponent MUST kill the ling/roach/ultra buffer first.
Even more, roach/hydra rushes aren't bad in WoL. Buffing their dps/HP would just strengthen such allins, which are basically just about "does he have the tech units, or doesn't he". A range 9 hydra would be insane, I don't think this would be the right answer because of how powerful they would become. I imagine you could easily kite air, pick off workers from cliffs, use them as cliff defenders on armys moving up ramps. If AoE is the problem maybe give them an ability that activate a countdown that starts when they move out of AoE that increases their life regeneration or gives them a base amount of life back when hit zero. So if they are hit by a storm and move out of the storm a countdown starts that when hits zero gives them life regeneration of life.
He's talking about hive tech, basically the hydra he is talking about needs to be a viable option compared to ultras and broodlords. I actually think range 9 hydra on hive tech would be pretty awesome to see, and an interesting option, much more enjoyable to watch than broodlords, thats for sure.
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Range +1, Gas down to 35 and +10HP seems reasonable to me imo. My main gripe with Hydras was that they were too gas heavy. As for their life expectancy, they're meant to be glass cannons... That's why you use Roachs/Zerglings as meat shields.
Grooved Spines can increase their range to +7 at Hive tech however. +9 range is ridiculous.
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Hydra should have 6 range w/o upgrade and have their 10 nerfed health point back. Nothing imba here just simple tweaking that make this unit viable. Of course range upgrade is removed of the game  But please don't argue that +10 hp make it insanely good it's just 90 hp for a 100/50 unit.
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On December 17 2012 01:21 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 01:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 17 2012 01:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 16 2012 23:36 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 16 2012 23:26 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 16 2012 23:00 Evangelist wrote:
What about giving the roach upgrade for burrowed movement to the hydralisk? And what would that solve? Roaches are units with lower range that need to get to the enemy. Burrow Movement also make sense against Force Fields. Hydras don't have as much problems against Force Fields with their 6 range, and they are too fragile to be used as Roaches for assault attack. They can be used for assault attacks the same way lings can. Zerg is about overwhelming with numbers not having huge meaty units. No they can't, because they cost too much for what they can do. Nobody will use Hydras for those kind of things, and that is the reason why you don't see pure Hydra, but support with cheap units that soak up damage for them, like Lings or Roaches. Hydralisks are cheap, and with Zerg's insane production mechanics they can be mass produced like any other unit. Hydralisks are cheap? You are either a bad troll or don't know what you are talking about. Nobody is talking about mass production, if I have the money, I can mass produce the Ultralisks, that doesn't mean that they are cheap. Hydras are 100/50/2, and there are few units that they don't lose straight up fight to. One Hydra is strong as two Marines when they are at 0-0 upgrades, except that it doesn't have a stim, but +1 range and a bit less HP. When the upgrades start to kick in, one Hydra has even less HP than two Marines, worse DPS, Mobility, everything. With addition of speed at lair tech, they are average support range units at best.
Yes. Hydralisks are relatively cheap. There are few units that Zerglings and Marines beat in a fight too, and people assault with those relatively often. Ultralisks are on the other end of the spectrum, and people assault with those too. Your argument really doesn't hold if you think "ability to 1v1" has a correlation to being able to assault. We're not discussing what style of a-move will guarantee you a 100% win like you seem to think Hydralisks have a "god-given" right to.
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The Medivac speed boost just looks silly.
Not because of what it does, as I think that having a turbo is a nice touch for them. But because it is only a ridiculously short 20 second cooldown, and lasts 8 seconds of those 20 seconds. Therefore Medivacs can basically be speed boosted for almost half of the total time they are in the game.
That means you should always turn it on whenever it comes off cooldown, since it will be available again so quickly. Because remember, these are ingame seconds, which are faster than normal seconds. The time that you are forced to wait between speed boosts, is less than the duration of stimpack. There is almost no strategy to it, and almost no decision-making.
They should make the speed boost more consequential, either by increasing both the duration and cooldown, or by changing it to use energy. Energy would make a lot more sense, since you would be able to completely control when you want to use it or not, and because Medivacs ALREADY HAVE ENERGY! It makes no sense to add a cooldown ability to a unit that already has an energy ability.
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On December 17 2012 06:56 Fig wrote:
The Medivac speed boost just looks silly.
Not because of what it does, as I think that having a turbo is a nice touch for them. But because it is only a ridiculously short 20 second cooldown, and lasts 8 seconds of those 20 seconds. Therefore Medivacs can basically be speed boosted for almost half of the total time they are in the game.
That means you should always turn it on whenever it comes off cooldown, since it will be available again so quickly. Because remember, these are ingame seconds, which are faster than normal seconds. The time that you are forced to wait between speed boosts, is less than the duration of stimpack. There is almost no strategy to it, and almost no decision-making.
They should make the speed boost more consequential, either by increasing both the duration and cooldown, or by changing it to use energy. Energy would make a lot more sense, since you would be able to completely control when you want to use it or not, and because Medivacs ALREADY HAVE ENERGY! It makes no sense to add a cooldown ability to a unit that already has an energy ability.
I agree with this. I speed boost my medivacs right as they leave the starport so they reinforce faster, I speed boost to micro in the middle of fights, and then I speed boost to escape with few losses. It's pretty dumb.
I think the speed boost should just burn energy at a fairly fast pace (faster than banshee cloak for example) and have no activation cost. So you would burn 10 energy for every in-game second or so, and it either deactivates when the medivac runs out of energy or when you do so manually. I think this would allow for really interesting tactics in trading off healing ability with speed, since with a full medivac you could zoom across the map for a drop, but when you arrive there will be no energy and so the drop will be much less powerful.
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On December 17 2012 06:56 Fig wrote:
The Medivac speed boost just looks silly.
Not because of what it does, as I think that having a turbo is a nice touch for them. But because it is only a ridiculously short 20 second cooldown, and lasts 8 seconds of those 20 seconds. Therefore Medivacs can basically be speed boosted for almost half of the total time they are in the game.
That means you should always turn it on whenever it comes off cooldown, since it will be available again so quickly. Because remember, these are ingame seconds, which are faster than normal seconds. The time that you are forced to wait between speed boosts, is less than the duration of stimpack. There is almost no strategy to it, and almost no decision-making.
They should make the speed boost more consequential, either by increasing both the duration and cooldown, or by changing it to use energy. Energy would make a lot more sense, since you would be able to completely control when you want to use it or not, and because Medivacs ALREADY HAVE ENERGY! It makes no sense to add a cooldown ability to a unit that already has an energy ability.
Completely disagree. The current state is nice, because it raises the skill cap. Part of the reason BW's skill cap was so well-crafted and yet so difficult was because there was always things that you needed to constantly and simultaneously be doing.
Increasing the cooldown and the duration doesn't change the purpose of the ability, but makes it easier to "master".
Example numbers:
5 second duration with 15 second cool is superior to 10 second duration with 30 second cooldown.
In the current state a noobie can use it, and he can use it well, but can he get the amount of utility out of it that a pro will? Nope, and that is good for the game. In what you're proposing there would be less of a difference between GM and plat when it comes to the ability.
The only thing it DOES need is better visual feedback as to when the effect starts and stops. This way players will be able to micro it more intuitively without decreasing the skill cap of the ability.
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On December 17 2012 05:01 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 04:10 Glowinglight wrote:On December 17 2012 02:57 Big J wrote:
A higher (lategame9 range would contribute to more micro to pull them out of focusfire range more quickly. Hence, lose a bit of damage, to make your hydras stay in combat longer, because suddenly your opponent MUST kill the ling/roach/ultra buffer first.
Even more, roach/hydra rushes aren't bad in WoL. Buffing their dps/HP would just strengthen such allins, which are basically just about "does he have the tech units, or doesn't he". A range 9 hydra would be insane, I don't think this would be the right answer because of how powerful they would become. I imagine you could easily kite air, pick off workers from cliffs, use them as cliff defenders on armys moving up ramps. If AoE is the problem maybe give them an ability that activate a countdown that starts when they move out of AoE that increases their life regeneration or gives them a base amount of life back when hit zero. So if they are hit by a storm and move out of the storm a countdown starts that when hits zero gives them life regeneration of life. He's talking about hive tech, basically the hydra he is talking about needs to be a viable option compared to ultras and broodlords. I actually think range 9 hydra on hive tech would be pretty awesome to see, and an interesting option, much more enjoyable to watch than broodlords, thats for sure.
9 in my post should be ")"
Talking about a possible 7range upgrade on hive :-)
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On December 17 2012 07:20 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 06:56 Fig wrote:
The Medivac speed boost just looks silly.
Not because of what it does, as I think that having a turbo is a nice touch for them. But because it is only a ridiculously short 20 second cooldown, and lasts 8 seconds of those 20 seconds. Therefore Medivacs can basically be speed boosted for almost half of the total time they are in the game.
That means you should always turn it on whenever it comes off cooldown, since it will be available again so quickly. Because remember, these are ingame seconds, which are faster than normal seconds. The time that you are forced to wait between speed boosts, is less than the duration of stimpack. There is almost no strategy to it, and almost no decision-making.
They should make the speed boost more consequential, either by increasing both the duration and cooldown, or by changing it to use energy. Energy would make a lot more sense, since you would be able to completely control when you want to use it or not, and because Medivacs ALREADY HAVE ENERGY! It makes no sense to add a cooldown ability to a unit that already has an energy ability. Completely disagree. The current state is nice, because it raises the skill cap. Part of the reason BW's skill cap was so well-crafted and yet so difficult was because there was always things that you needed to constantly and simultaneously be doing. Increasing the cooldown and the duration doesn't change the purpose of the ability, but makes it easier to "master". Example numbers: 5 second duration with 15 second cool is superior to 10 second duration with 30 second cooldown. In the current state a noobie can use it, and he can use it well, but can he get the amount of utility out of it that a pro will? Nope, and that is good for the game. In what you're proposing there would be less of a difference between GM and plat when it comes to the ability. The only thing it DOES need is better visual feedback as to when the effect starts and stops. This way players will be able to micro it more intuitively without decreasing the skill cap of the ability.
Sorry. That first idea about increasing the duration and cooldown was just one that would make people actually think about when they should use it, and was given as an example of a quick change that would make the decision-making process more essential.
The actual best change would be to make it cost energy, as I also outlined above. I just gave that other rudimentary idea because I figured people might find a change to using energy too drastic, but you ignored that part of it, so maybe I should have emphasized it more.
Energy would be more intuitive design-wise, it would be more intuitive for all players. It would encourage more decision-making as there would be tension between healing and boosting, it would allow for more freedom with when you can use it, because it would be a simple toggle on and off, and would really show the difference in skill between players. That would be the ideal solution in my eyes.
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Looks like the classic colossus PvP numbers battle is going to turn into a Tempest war, with some sort of zealot/stalker ground army, I can't really see sentries being viable anymore in the late game, unless you have 4 stable bases with full gas saturation. Don't really see why they needed to kill the colossus so hard in PvP, it just seems like suicide to make them now, but I'll definitely need to play a handful of games to get a more firm grasp on the match up now.
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On December 17 2012 07:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 05:01 convention wrote:On December 17 2012 04:10 Glowinglight wrote:On December 17 2012 02:57 Big J wrote:
A higher (lategame9 range would contribute to more micro to pull them out of focusfire range more quickly. Hence, lose a bit of damage, to make your hydras stay in combat longer, because suddenly your opponent MUST kill the ling/roach/ultra buffer first.
Even more, roach/hydra rushes aren't bad in WoL. Buffing their dps/HP would just strengthen such allins, which are basically just about "does he have the tech units, or doesn't he". A range 9 hydra would be insane, I don't think this would be the right answer because of how powerful they would become. I imagine you could easily kite air, pick off workers from cliffs, use them as cliff defenders on armys moving up ramps. If AoE is the problem maybe give them an ability that activate a countdown that starts when they move out of AoE that increases their life regeneration or gives them a base amount of life back when hit zero. So if they are hit by a storm and move out of the storm a countdown starts that when hits zero gives them life regeneration of life. He's talking about hive tech, basically the hydra he is talking about needs to be a viable option compared to ultras and broodlords. I actually think range 9 hydra on hive tech would be pretty awesome to see, and an interesting option, much more enjoyable to watch than broodlords, thats for sure. 9 in my post should be ")" Talking about a possible 7range upgrade on hive :-)
Haha, thats good. reading you suggest range 9 hydralisks was going to make me completely disregard any balance talk from you from this point forward.
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On December 17 2012 07:34 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 07:20 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 17 2012 06:56 Fig wrote:
The Medivac speed boost just looks silly.
Not because of what it does, as I think that having a turbo is a nice touch for them. But because it is only a ridiculously short 20 second cooldown, and lasts 8 seconds of those 20 seconds. Therefore Medivacs can basically be speed boosted for almost half of the total time they are in the game.
That means you should always turn it on whenever it comes off cooldown, since it will be available again so quickly. Because remember, these are ingame seconds, which are faster than normal seconds. The time that you are forced to wait between speed boosts, is less than the duration of stimpack. There is almost no strategy to it, and almost no decision-making.
They should make the speed boost more consequential, either by increasing both the duration and cooldown, or by changing it to use energy. Energy would make a lot more sense, since you would be able to completely control when you want to use it or not, and because Medivacs ALREADY HAVE ENERGY! It makes no sense to add a cooldown ability to a unit that already has an energy ability. Completely disagree. The current state is nice, because it raises the skill cap. Part of the reason BW's skill cap was so well-crafted and yet so difficult was because there was always things that you needed to constantly and simultaneously be doing. Increasing the cooldown and the duration doesn't change the purpose of the ability, but makes it easier to "master". Example numbers: 5 second duration with 15 second cool is superior to 10 second duration with 30 second cooldown. In the current state a noobie can use it, and he can use it well, but can he get the amount of utility out of it that a pro will? Nope, and that is good for the game. In what you're proposing there would be less of a difference between GM and plat when it comes to the ability. The only thing it DOES need is better visual feedback as to when the effect starts and stops. This way players will be able to micro it more intuitively without decreasing the skill cap of the ability. Sorry. That first idea about increasing the duration and cooldown was just one that would make people actually think about when they should use it, and was given as an example of a quick change that would make the decision-making process more essential. The actual best change would be to make it cost energy, as I also outlined above. I just gave that other rudimentary idea because I figured people might find a change to using energy too drastic, but you ignored that part of it, so maybe I should have emphasized it more. Energy would be more intuitive design-wise, it would be more intuitive for all players. It would encourage more decision-making as there would be tension between healing and boosting, it would allow for more freedom with when you can use it, because it would be a simple toggle on and off, and would really show the difference in skill between players. That would be the ideal solution in my eyes.
I do think the medivac boost seems too strong but with all the new stuff other race been getting it hard to measure what should stay and what shouldnt. Since the medivac boost was given to terran because zerg and protoss got more option at defending drop (mutas buff, toss better air and recall) to give bio terran an equal footing. If they were to revert the muta changes or nerf it a little then a medivac boost CD increase should be considered. This is the problem with adding alot of new stuff at once since by nerfing one, you must nerf the other to composate for the reason why you added the other ability in. I was getting the impression a few days ago about how strong medivac were until I saw how amazing ultralisk are and Dragon was dropping like mad sniping many hatchery but the zerg was perfectly fine and eventually just walk in with ultras and smash dragon.
So I believe looking at how the mutas buff plays out first or the other change plays out first should be considered before looking at medivac boost.
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On December 17 2012 08:15 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 07:34 Fig wrote:On December 17 2012 07:20 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 17 2012 06:56 Fig wrote:
The Medivac speed boost just looks silly.
Not because of what it does, as I think that having a turbo is a nice touch for them. But because it is only a ridiculously short 20 second cooldown, and lasts 8 seconds of those 20 seconds. Therefore Medivacs can basically be speed boosted for almost half of the total time they are in the game.
That means you should always turn it on whenever it comes off cooldown, since it will be available again so quickly. Because remember, these are ingame seconds, which are faster than normal seconds. The time that you are forced to wait between speed boosts, is less than the duration of stimpack. There is almost no strategy to it, and almost no decision-making.
They should make the speed boost more consequential, either by increasing both the duration and cooldown, or by changing it to use energy. Energy would make a lot more sense, since you would be able to completely control when you want to use it or not, and because Medivacs ALREADY HAVE ENERGY! It makes no sense to add a cooldown ability to a unit that already has an energy ability. Completely disagree. The current state is nice, because it raises the skill cap. Part of the reason BW's skill cap was so well-crafted and yet so difficult was because there was always things that you needed to constantly and simultaneously be doing. Increasing the cooldown and the duration doesn't change the purpose of the ability, but makes it easier to "master". Example numbers: 5 second duration with 15 second cool is superior to 10 second duration with 30 second cooldown. In the current state a noobie can use it, and he can use it well, but can he get the amount of utility out of it that a pro will? Nope, and that is good for the game. In what you're proposing there would be less of a difference between GM and plat when it comes to the ability. The only thing it DOES need is better visual feedback as to when the effect starts and stops. This way players will be able to micro it more intuitively without decreasing the skill cap of the ability. Sorry. That first idea about increasing the duration and cooldown was just one that would make people actually think about when they should use it, and was given as an example of a quick change that would make the decision-making process more essential. The actual best change would be to make it cost energy, as I also outlined above. I just gave that other rudimentary idea because I figured people might find a change to using energy too drastic, but you ignored that part of it, so maybe I should have emphasized it more. Energy would be more intuitive design-wise, it would be more intuitive for all players. It would encourage more decision-making as there would be tension between healing and boosting, it would allow for more freedom with when you can use it, because it would be a simple toggle on and off, and would really show the difference in skill between players. That would be the ideal solution in my eyes. I do think the medivac boost seems too strong but with all the new stuff other race been getting it hard to measure what should stay and what shouldnt. Since the medivac boost was given to terran because zerg and protoss got more option at defending drop (mutas buff, toss better air and recall) to give bio terran an equal footing. If they were to revert the muta changes or nerf it a little then a medivac boost CD increase should be considered. This is the problem with adding alot of new stuff at once since by nerfing one, you must nerf the other to composate for the reason why you added the other ability in. I was getting the impression a few days ago about how strong medivac were until I saw how amazing ultralisk are and Dragon was dropping like mad sniping many hatchery but the zerg was perfectly fine and eventually just walk in with ultras and smash dragon. So I believe looking at how the mutas buff plays out first or the other change plays out first should be considered before looking at medivac boost.
What I am talking about has nothing to do with how strong the ability is. No one knows the state of balance at the moment.
I am focusing on the implementation of the boost, which I believe could be made much more interesting and intuitive by using energy instead of a cooldown.
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EPT
