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Medivac changes - quite interesting. We will also probably see more diverse starport openings, as it needs to be producing something, while research is ongoing. Maybe more cloakless banshees, maybe more Ravens (though new HSM doesn't seem useful in early game).
Widow Mine - I guess we can live with it not hitting cloaked units (though I don't think such a change is needed), but 1 second burrow? This is going wrong direction again. Mines should not be used as units that charge enemy, if anything they should take longer to burrow than they do now...
Thor - I just hope this change means no energy on Thors, so that they don't die to single feedback in TvP.
HMS - 1-shotting BL and 2-shotting Ultras. This is going to be very tricky - it can deal with zerg t3 quickly, but each raven can fire only once and no splash damage...
Armory - This is an unneeded buff to Terrans.
Mothership - As promised, nerfed beyond competitive usage.
Phoenix range - nice.
Dark Shrine - Uh-oh this is bad for newbies, as DT openings won't be as easily scoutable by gas...
Tempest & Voidray - Hopefully they now compliment each other. Hard to tell what those changes will do.
Mutalisk - As if chasing Mutas away wasn't hard enough... but anything for the infestor nerf.
Infestor changes - Yes, please.
Ultras - I am happy, that Burrow Charge is gone. This is going to be a beast now against light ground targets.
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On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:
As a Terran, here are my initial thoughts.
The new Medivac is hilariously OP, I can't see it staying as it is atm. Otherwise core Terran issues aren't really addressed, although I think these buffs will make Terran Bio OP vZ and vP and we wont even get to see late game TvT thanks to the reaper buff. New Seeker Missile sucks if it got rid of splash and is pretty nice if it didn't, though it overlaps with Yamato a lot, Thor change is basically useless. I'm not really sure how Vehicle and Air upgrades being the same will work out, tbh I feel like this change will make Mech too strong since it really smooths out the transition into air but we'll have to see.
New Oracle looks a lot like a Pheonix with worse air-to-air but better air to ground and an AoE slow. Protoss changes in general are rather uninspiring. Vortex change is confusing, kills a single target instantly but can't hit massive? Seems kinda useless?
Zerg changes all look really good, would have like to see the Hydra supply reduced to 1 though, it still needs a bit of a buff IMO. Muta and Swarm Host changes are excellent however, Ultralisk just got a huge buff vs light ground but we'll have to see if that actually makes any difference.
Edit: New Dark Shrine + 7 Range Pheonix make Pheo / DT viable for PvZ yet?
As a Terran I have to say you are seriously misguided.
You seem stuck in a WoL mindset where mech TvP is a no-no and there are no such thing as blinding cloud time warp and such. I advise you to think things through again.
Medivac heal ability might make marauders a bit too good yes, but that is it.
It wont come in to play until the lategame because most players will probably still prefer to get reactored medivacs as soon as possible. As speed bonus goes it is a nice way to get away from fungal and templars with feedback. Now you actually have a chance to get out of range by using the speed boost making drops more viable throughout the game which rewards players with good mechanics. A very good thing imo.
Thor changes are not useless. You gotta be trolling me.
Just the fact that 250mm is gone together with the retarded energy bar makes it viable vs protoss again.
Also, its dps/area has increased since the model and collission radius is smaller meaning you can fit more thors into the same area.
The new single target anti air mode might be a bit useless in its current state though. I would like it to have a way higher dps given that thors are 6 supply...
I agree that seeker missile overlaps with yamatoo, but its 10 range makes it outrange feedback. Ravens will now have a natural role to fill in TvP to snipe Tempests , colossus , immortals, archons and other "OP" units making it hard for a mech player. If I understand it correctly you can employ hit-and-run tacticts from range 10 by queing up a move command in the opposite direction of the target after aiming a seeker missile at it.
And it will also be possible to cover the ground with 13 range siege tanks to cover ravens from high templars.
A solid change imo.
It overlaps with yamatoo too much, I agree. Yamatoo should do splash damage and less single target damage to compensate. This would make it an awesome T3 unit.
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So many changes! Will take some getting used to I'm sure. But looks good and should be interesting.
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Oh my god, Thor actually really lost energy bar, man. This is HUGE for TvP...
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On December 06 2012 18:56 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:48 Crawdad wrote:On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:Thor change is basically useless. Are you high? As many before me have shown, the single target DPS is only slightly stronger than the AoE version with something like +2 to 9 damage depending on upgrades. In exchange for losing the splash, I think the overall DPS vs most compositions is actually lower. Only vs well split Brood Lords (something most Zergs don't bother to do vT atm anyway) or Battlecruisers is the Thor change a substantial difference.
Is it confirmed that the new AA attack has the same attack speed as the old one?
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On December 06 2012 18:46 Sworm_MS wrote:
Thor new AA ability is the same 24 damage (as in normal, old mode, without +light bonus), it just deals damage every 2, not 3, seconds. But in that mode you lack splash. So actually i don't know is it any worth to switch to it at all.
Yes, with just one non light target Thor will deal more damage, but how often you fight vs just one? With two or more targets clumped it's more worth wise to stay in old, splash mode.
The change is huge. Thors do 3x dps vs broods, battlecruisers in their new mode (damage is already doubled, since no bonus vs light factoring in, and according to sources I've seen it hits 1.5 faster) which will have quite an impact on mech vs Zerg and Terran. And at pro level you can bet your ass capital ships will be spread for a major engagement.
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I still think they need to make Hydras not be light.
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On December 06 2012 18:59 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:
As a Terran, here are my initial thoughts.
The new Medivac is hilariously OP, I can't see it staying as it is atm. Otherwise core Terran issues aren't really addressed, although I think these buffs will make Terran Bio OP vZ and vP and we wont even get to see late game TvT thanks to the reaper buff. New Seeker Missile sucks if it got rid of splash and is pretty nice if it didn't, though it overlaps with Yamato a lot, Thor change is basically useless. I'm not really sure how Vehicle and Air upgrades being the same will work out, tbh I feel like this change will make Mech too strong since it really smooths out the transition into air but we'll have to see.
New Oracle looks a lot like a Pheonix with worse air-to-air but better air to ground and an AoE slow. Protoss changes in general are rather uninspiring. Vortex change is confusing, kills a single target instantly but can't hit massive? Seems kinda useless?
Zerg changes all look really good, would have like to see the Hydra supply reduced to 1 though, it still needs a bit of a buff IMO. Muta and Swarm Host changes are excellent however, Ultralisk just got a huge buff vs light ground but we'll have to see if that actually makes any difference.
Edit: New Dark Shrine + 7 Range Pheonix make Pheo / DT viable for PvZ yet? As a Terran I have to say you are seriously misguided. You seem stuck in a WoL mindset where mech TvP is a no-no and there are no such thing as blinding cloud time warp and such. I advise you to think things through again. Medivac heal ability might make marauders a bit too good yes, but that is it. It wont come in to play until the lategame because most players will probably still prefer to get reactored medivacs as soon as possible. As speed bonus goes it is a nice way to get away from fungal and templars with feedback. Now you actually have a chance to get out of range by using the speed boost making drops more viable throughout the game which rewards players with good mechanics. A very good thing imo. Thor changes are not useless. You gotta be trolling me. Just the fact that 250mm is gone together with the retarded energy bar makes it viable vs protoss again. Also, its dps/area has increased since the model and collission radius is smaller meaning you can fit more thors into the same area. The new single target anti air mode might be a bit useless in its current state though. I would like it to have a way higher dps given that thors are 6 supply... I agree that seeker missile overlaps with yamatoo, but its 10 range makes it outrange feedback. Ravens will now have a natural role to fill in TvP to snipe Tempests , colossus , immortals, archons and other "OP" units making it hard for a mech player. If I understand it correctly you can employ hit-and-run tacticts from range 10 by queing up a move command in the opposite direction of the target after aiming a seeker missile at it. And it will also be possible to cover the ground with 13 range siege tanks to cover ravens from high templars. A solid change imo. It overlaps with yamatoo too much, I agree. Yamatoo should do splash damage and less single target damage to compensate. This would make it an awesome T3 unit.
I actually play Mech in both WoL (~50% of the time) and HotS in TvP, for reference.
I don't think you really understand how substantial the medivac change is, this upgrade increases the healing power of each individual medivac to 5/3 what it was in WoL, basically nearly doubling it. It actually becomes cost effective to get the upgrade if you plan on having more than 4 Medivacs (since 3 Medivacs with the upgrade now heal as much as 5 would otherwise). I was more thinking of TvZ with this change, I just cant see Zerg doing damage fast enough to kill units with such a massive healing bonus.
I actually wasn't thinking about the energy removal, that is a pretty significant buff in TvP (although I NEVER use Thors in TvP at the moment, I prefer to go hellion / tank / viking into sky terran), but the radius is an INCREASE in radius, not a decrease. As in bigger. Reducing DPS / area.
Problem with 10 range seeker missile is if you use it at 10 range they have 3 full seconds to move the targetted unit (which is conveniently highlighted) out of range where the missile becomes useless. So you still have to get in closer to guarantee damage.
On December 06 2012 19:02 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:56 Pursuit_ wrote:On December 06 2012 18:48 Crawdad wrote:On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:Thor change is basically useless. Are you high? As many before me have shown, the single target DPS is only slightly stronger than the AoE version with something like +2 to 9 damage depending on upgrades. In exchange for losing the splash, I think the overall DPS vs most compositions is actually lower. Only vs well split Brood Lords (something most Zergs don't bother to do vT atm anyway) or Battlecruisers is the Thor change a substantial difference. Is it confirmed that the new AA attack has the same attack speed as the old one?
Good point, if the attack speed is considerably faster then this would be a really strong buff for mech, perhaps too strong vZ 
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Are you guys still being dropped in games?
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On December 06 2012 19:14 YyapSsap wrote:
Are you guys still being dropped in games?
Beta is down for now..
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Yay they kept Mothership in Hots!
Oh wait, its useless now.
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On December 06 2012 19:02 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:56 Pursuit_ wrote:On December 06 2012 18:48 Crawdad wrote:On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:Thor change is basically useless. Are you high? As many before me have shown, the single target DPS is only slightly stronger than the AoE version with something like +2 to 9 damage depending on upgrades. In exchange for losing the splash, I think the overall DPS vs most compositions is actually lower. Only vs well split Brood Lords (something most Zergs don't bother to do vT atm anyway) or Battlecruisers is the Thor change a substantial difference. Is it confirmed that the new AA attack has the same attack speed as the old one?
The attack speed/cooldown for the new AA attack is 2, as opposed to the missile attack which still has an attack speed of 3, so it is slightly faster.
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On December 06 2012 19:15 WP_Insanity wrote:
Yay they kept Mothership in Hots!
Oh wait, its useless now.
Terrible unit to begin with. Balancing an entire race's late game around one UBERUNIT and its gimmicky, coin flip ability... No thanks. Carrier micro (if true) and tempests will more than make up the balance.
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Still sad over the fact that carrier still isnt being touched. Otherwise these changes look pretty cool. Im imagining oracle rush vs terran, killing marines left and right XD
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On December 06 2012 19:19 uh-oh wrote:
Still sad over the fact that carrier still isnt being touched. Otherwise these changes look pretty cool. Im imagining oracle rush vs terran, killing marines left and right XD
Didn't you hear? Carriers can micro bw style now..!!
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On December 06 2012 19:19 uh-oh wrote:
Still sad over the fact that carrier still isnt being touched. Otherwise these changes look pretty cool. Im imagining oracle rush vs terran, killing marines left and right XD
You will be surprised about the Carrier very soon...
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United Kingdom12058 Posts
On December 06 2012 19:19 uh-oh wrote:
Still sad over the fact that carrier still isnt being touched. Otherwise these changes look pretty cool. Im imagining oracle rush vs terran, killing marines left and right XD
Apparently Carrier Micro is back from BW! Check the other thread.
It's undocumented supposedly.
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On December 06 2012 11:30 See.Blue wrote:
People missing the point that with the new vortex, Protoss now has the single best BM in-game ceremony of any race
Exactly! Lol! 
However now I think it could be OK to reduce the Mothership supply, so that it is used not only as BM, but also at least rarely in very late game (when you have 350/350 to spare and want a bit more extra firepower).
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On December 06 2012 19:11 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:59 one-one-one wrote:On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:
As a Terran, here are my initial thoughts.
The new Medivac is hilariously OP, I can't see it staying as it is atm. Otherwise core Terran issues aren't really addressed, although I think these buffs will make Terran Bio OP vZ and vP and we wont even get to see late game TvT thanks to the reaper buff. New Seeker Missile sucks if it got rid of splash and is pretty nice if it didn't, though it overlaps with Yamato a lot, Thor change is basically useless. I'm not really sure how Vehicle and Air upgrades being the same will work out, tbh I feel like this change will make Mech too strong since it really smooths out the transition into air but we'll have to see.
New Oracle looks a lot like a Pheonix with worse air-to-air but better air to ground and an AoE slow. Protoss changes in general are rather uninspiring. Vortex change is confusing, kills a single target instantly but can't hit massive? Seems kinda useless?
Zerg changes all look really good, would have like to see the Hydra supply reduced to 1 though, it still needs a bit of a buff IMO. Muta and Swarm Host changes are excellent however, Ultralisk just got a huge buff vs light ground but we'll have to see if that actually makes any difference.
Edit: New Dark Shrine + 7 Range Pheonix make Pheo / DT viable for PvZ yet? As a Terran I have to say you are seriously misguided. You seem stuck in a WoL mindset where mech TvP is a no-no and there are no such thing as blinding cloud time warp and such. I advise you to think things through again. Medivac heal ability might make marauders a bit too good yes, but that is it. It wont come in to play until the lategame because most players will probably still prefer to get reactored medivacs as soon as possible. As speed bonus goes it is a nice way to get away from fungal and templars with feedback. Now you actually have a chance to get out of range by using the speed boost making drops more viable throughout the game which rewards players with good mechanics. A very good thing imo. Thor changes are not useless. You gotta be trolling me. Just the fact that 250mm is gone together with the retarded energy bar makes it viable vs protoss again. Also, its dps/area has increased since the model and collission radius is smaller meaning you can fit more thors into the same area. The new single target anti air mode might be a bit useless in its current state though. I would like it to have a way higher dps given that thors are 6 supply... I agree that seeker missile overlaps with yamatoo, but its 10 range makes it outrange feedback. Ravens will now have a natural role to fill in TvP to snipe Tempests , colossus , immortals, archons and other "OP" units making it hard for a mech player. If I understand it correctly you can employ hit-and-run tacticts from range 10 by queing up a move command in the opposite direction of the target after aiming a seeker missile at it. And it will also be possible to cover the ground with 13 range siege tanks to cover ravens from high templars. A solid change imo. It overlaps with yamatoo too much, I agree. Yamatoo should do splash damage and less single target damage to compensate. This would make it an awesome T3 unit. I actually play Mech in both WoL (~50% of the time) and HotS in TvP, for reference. I don't think you really understand how substantial the medivac change is, this upgrade increases the healing power of each individual medivac to 5/3 what it was in WoL, basically nearly doubling it. It actually becomes cost effective to get the upgrade if you plan on having more than 4 Medivacs (since 3 Medivacs with the upgrade now heal as much as 5 would otherwise). I was more thinking of TvZ with this change, I just cant see Zerg doing damage fast enough to kill units with such a massive healing bonus. I actually wasn't thinking about the energy removal, that is a pretty significant buff in TvP (although I NEVER use Thors in TvP at the moment, I prefer to go hellion / tank / viking into sky terran), but the radius is an INCREASE in radius, not a decrease. As in bigger. Reducing DPS / area. Problem with 10 range seeker missile is if you use it at 10 range they have 3 full seconds to move it out of range where it becomes useless. So you still have to get in closer to guarantee damage. Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 19:02 Bagi wrote:On December 06 2012 18:56 Pursuit_ wrote:On December 06 2012 18:48 Crawdad wrote:On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:Thor change is basically useless. Are you high? As many before me have shown, the single target DPS is only slightly stronger than the AoE version with something like +2 to 9 damage depending on upgrades. In exchange for losing the splash, I think the overall DPS vs most compositions is actually lower. Only vs well split Brood Lords (something most Zergs don't bother to do vT atm anyway) or Battlecruisers is the Thor change a substantial difference. Is it confirmed that the new AA attack has the same attack speed as the old one? Good point, if the attack speed is considerably faster then this would be a really strong buff for mech, perhaps too strong vZ
Medivac heal rate matters very little vs banelings. It is an indirect nerf vs fungal which is a good thing.
I think it is a promising change since mass splash damage like fungal, colossus and storm is reduced in strength indirectly.
All three races can pretty much hard counter bio by getting enough templars, colossus, fungals ,banelings or tanks.
This change makes bio armies last slightly longer which might reduce the likelyhood of the opponent going for a no rush 20 minute game.
I'd rather see them remove fungal root though, but this is the next best thing.
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EPT
