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On December 06 2012 18:03 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:01 Bahamuth wrote:
Does anyone know how long the Void Ray ability lasts? I still really doubt this unit will have much use.
One thing I have noticed is that it massacres Corruptors.
Which is good that way. Corruptors were the only anti air unit that could not be countered by another in any way, not even by BCs or by Carriers (ofc these 2 are not "air only" units like Vikings(airmode) or phoenixes), but then again, Vikings getting completely owned by corruptors, especially because of the larva mechanic vs the infrastructure of terran
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Wow this is exactly what I wanted! 
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On December 06 2012 18:22 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:14 Belha wrote:On December 06 2012 18:09 unteqair wrote:On December 06 2012 18:00 Belha wrote:
About the Medivac speed boost. In some maps (like Antiga), and at korean level, the P have no way to deal with that mobility at 9:00 - 10:00 min; it will decide games right away.
What do you think about the viability of opening stargate vs someone who will be using medivacs? New units must be tested ofc, but historically Stargate is a very expensive tech. Vs terran, you have to make a LOT of dmg and hope for a non-infantry attack or you're dead (using 6:30-7:00 sg tech; from fast nexus ofc). That's why top P players do not use stargate vs T in even games (yeah, MC used it vs weaker foreigners), you just don't have enough money to match T infantry army in the 8:00-10:00 window. Not to even mention fast pushes in nats with wider ramp/no ramp. Without having a beta key I dont know the timings of course. However I can imagine if you go fast Oracle you will be able to contain an infantry terran quite well. With these stats they absolutely murder SCVs, you need defenses for them. But the standard defense of terran: some marines, really wont cut it. I wouldnt wish to try a bunch of Oracles against a marine ball, but at the same time a handful of marines also wont deal with Oracle harrasment, they simply get mowed down themselves. Bio pushes would then become all-in quite fast. Since oracles would destroy the SCV population, and additionally also cut off the attackers from reinforcements. Then it is a matter of holding the bio with purify and forcefields.
Yeah just saw the new Oracle in action.
I still think the investment for stargat+oracle (remember, new build time 50sec) +delaying robo or twilight, will be too much investment (aka tempo loss) to deal with a stim push. Medivac+stim is already a serious threat as P even with the proper tech. If as P you go for Sg at 6:30-7:00, a couple of stimmed rines can diminish your harass dmg, but your tech costs will make your 9:00-10:00 def vs the stim push almost imposible. Maybe sg can work in a big map with a nat choke/small ramp, but ihmo, sg will not work in the avg map. I hope I'm wrong tho ^^
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On December 06 2012 15:12 harperwillis wrote:
just humor my anecdote from WOL:
I encounter a big MMM in mid game with some vikings, and I am protoss
Enemy Terran: presses stim, and then A button, goes and takes a crap. (APM = 3)
Me, Protoss: tab to sentry! drop forcefields! tab to blink stalkers! blink under vikings! focus fire vikings! tab to collosus! studder step! tab to sentries drop more forcefileds! CRAP NO ENERGY! micro zealots back! tab to blink stalkers! blink back! (APM = 200)
MMM stims through, crushes through anyway. blah blah
I have a bit of a different perspective on this one. Please humor my anecdote from WOL:
I encounter a big MMM in mid game with some vikings, and I am protoss
I am taken aback when the "Enemy Terran: presses stim, and then A button, goes and takes a crap. (APM = 3)"
Me, I watch on in amazement as the marines and marauders naturally fall into a perfect line in front of my towering colossi, melting away before they can even get into position to attack. Dumbfounded I look on as one after another the perfectly pathed bio lines up in precise contours, exactly symmetrical to the dimensions of my AOE damage dealer. Wave after wave crash upon the unbreakable shores that are my deathball as fire is rained from above. Zealots, (mineral sink that they are) absorb what little real damage is actually being dealt as my colossi are nestled safely in the bosom of what can only be defined as pure DPS. My astonishment passes as quickly as it came and the reality of my situation sets in. I let out a cackle to the Gods as I watch his puny un-upgraded vikings erupt like a vulgar fireworks display, helplessly prioritized by my stalkers. I eat another spoonful of yogurt as I watch the tattered remains of his puny race flee to the shadows. Just then, as if awoken from a dream, my startled mind finally coalesces with the reality of the events which have unfolded. I smell blood. The game is mine! I put down my yogurt and take up my arms. I grip my mouse like the hilt of Excalibur herself, and in my frenzy cannot help but to bash aside the half empty "Big Gulps" cluttering the corners of my desk. Cherry Pepsi stains my floor like the blood of the Terran race, but I care not, for my strategy is pure and my vision true. As my colossi trample the corpses of the once mighty "bioball" I execute my final coup de grâce with the virtuosity of Motzart himself ... I hold shift. With a lithe index finger I caress the "A" key without hesitation. I glace to the minimap and my beating heart races to it's crescendo as I que up the natural and main base as waypoints for the coming trail of tears. I look on, knowing that this is all but an extended death animation for the Terran. As the inevitable "ggwp" fades into my view I can't help but reflect in awe of my tactical brilliance and strategic finesse.
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As a Terran, here are my initial thoughts.
The new Medivac is hilariously OP, I can't see it staying as it is atm. Otherwise core Terran issues aren't really addressed, although I think these buffs will make Terran Bio OP vZ and vP and we wont even get to see late game TvT thanks to the reaper buff. New Seeker Missile sucks if it got rid of splash and is pretty nice if it didn't, though it overlaps with Yamato a lot, Thor change is basically useless. I'm not really sure how Vehicle and Air upgrades being the same will work out, tbh I feel like this change will make Mech too strong since it really smooths out the transition into air but we'll have to see.
New Oracle looks a lot like a Pheonix with worse air-to-air but better air to ground and an AoE slow. Protoss changes in general are rather uninspiring. Vortex change is confusing, kills a single target instantly but can't hit massive? Seems kinda useless?
Zerg changes all look really good, would have like to see the Hydra supply reduced to 1 though, it still needs a bit of a buff IMO. Muta and Swarm Host changes are excellent however, Ultralisk just got a huge buff vs light ground but we'll have to see if that actually makes any difference.
Edit: New Dark Shrine + 7 Range Pheonix make Pheo / DT viable for PvZ yet?
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Thor new AA ability is the same 24 damage (as in normal, old mode, without +light bonus), it just deals damage every 2, not 3, seconds. But in that mode you lack splash. So actually i don't know is it any worth to switch to it at all.
Yes, with just one non light target Thor will deal more damage, but how often you fight vs just one? With two or more targets clumped it's more worth wise to stay in old, splash mode.
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On December 06 2012 18:35 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:03 Crawdad wrote:On December 06 2012 18:01 Bahamuth wrote:
Does anyone know how long the Void Ray ability lasts? I still really doubt this unit will have much use.
One thing I have noticed is that it massacres Corruptors. Which is good that way. Corruptors were the only anti air unit that could not be countered by another in any way, not even by BCs or by Carriers (ofc these 2 are not "air only" units like Vikings(airmode) or phoenixes), but then again, Vikings getting completely owned by corruptors, especially because of the larva mechanic vs the infrastructure of terran
Kiting Vikings beat Corruptors cost for cost and supply for supply.
Void Rays beat Corruptors supply for supply (1:1.5 ratio)
And sry. "Not even BCs or Carriers" is bullshit. Corruptors/Vikings/Voidrays are meant to counter those. If they wouldn't, mass BCs wouldn't have a counter and thus be broken.
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Medivac speed upgrade seems rediculous, really, the cooldown is so low.. You can like fly over turrets, kill bunch of things and then fly over them back again.. I'm pretty sure turret ring won't stop drops now, you will need widow mines there to not take loses.
Also Reaper went from scouting gimmicky unit to pretty deadly harrasing unit early in the game. The combination of the speed and regen basically makes him invulnerable as long as you can micro enough.
Other than that, air/mech upgrades on their own are going to give Terran really scary late-game.
I think Terran is now absolutely able to play macro long-term game with Z or P.
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Omg this is awesome!! :D I love the infestor changes and most of the terran changes.
Ravenplay will be alot of fun now
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On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:Thor change is basically useless.
Are you high?
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loving the direction, sure some things seem op at first glance and need tweaking, but more active abilities and raising the skillcap in general is good
one thing that bothers me though is that blizzard maybe added one too many stargate units in the expansion, basically every patch has a redesign of a stargate unit, new role for another etc etc, would prefer if they remove one of them
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On December 06 2012 13:24 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 13:16 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On December 06 2012 13:05 GolemMadness wrote:On December 06 2012 10:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 06 2012 09:58 GolemMadness wrote:
The seeker missile change is a bit uncreative as well. It's basically just a more powerful yamato. I don't think spells like that really have a place in the game anymore with smart casting. Basically just a hard counter to brood lords. Would it not be great to have more transitions/phases of the game? Imagine a bio or mech player adding Ravens to deal with BLs (I think it's much more of a soft counter). The energy takes a while to remake -- this makes the nature of your combined army to be slower, more deathballish/turtlish/defensive. This would then give incentive for zerg to react to that by going back to T1/2 units like bling ling muta. Suddenly your Ravens have no energy and can't help out anyways -- SM only works well against high HP single target units. You're right though, it doesn't feel very unique. Maybe it could be something like a missile that splits into 3 and hits the 2 closest units next to the target, does ~100 damage to all? Well anyway they are definitely going to be patching more after this, so I can't wait to see how much better it will get! The thing though is that a brood lord costs 300/250 to make. A raven costs 100/200. Even if you seeker missile the brood lord and your raven gets killed, it's still a win for you. It's a similar situation with an ultralisk. Plus, ravens only cost two supply. Basically, with absolutely no skill requirement, you're at best trading energy for very expensive units, and at worst trading a unit for a more expensive unit. This way of looking at it is way too cut and dry, even neglecting each race's different income potentials. The starports with techlabs required to build ravens are a significant investment, as is the energy upgrade. The dynamics of how each unit functions outside of a large battle is also completely different. I.e., if a raven has built up enough energy for a seeker missile, it probably hasn't done much for the last few minutes and won't be doing much for then next few minutes. On the other hand, an ultralisk is useful all the time. Yeah, this is the best way to explain why just because the Raven can reliably trade itself for a more expensive unit in one engagement doesn't mean it's too strong. spending 200 gas ~2 minutes ago and getting literally no return on it until that 2 minutes is up, isn't equivalent to the guy who made a Corruptor 2 minutes ago, killed some Vikings, and then made a Brood Lord 40 seconds ago, did some damage to some Mech units, and then lost it to a Raven. Basically this spell should allow Terrans to win most maxed engagements if they make enough Ravens, but that's how it was anyways. Now the spell is just more reliable and more anti-late game units. No real role before that though with SM.
That's not how things work though. Zerg doesn't make corruptors and then go around killing vikings with them. A more accurate prediction of what would happen would be a zerg makes some brood lords, sits around and masses up more brood lords, and then very slowly makes his way across the map. The brood lords are not going around doing damage all over the place; they're mostly just sitting around until a big engagement happens, at which point they're all instantly killed by units half their cost.
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JESUS FUCK IMBA
man
the latest WOL patch is super careful, this is just fucking insane.
the double medivac buff is extremely OP
10 range HSM, sure it's easy to split now, but dropping 10 of these will send the entirety of a z army running allowing imba 3-3 vikings and single target rape-thors to just shred everything. you can't dodge or split enough (oh ok single target, i'll take that back. but now it's a different version of yamato = i totally disagree with it
reaper? poor fucking Z
damn this is radical. i'm mostly positive of the direction though
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Wow actually carrier got ninja buff like what Tyler suggested apparently. Good thing...
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On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:
The new Medivac is hilariously OP, I can't see it staying as it is atm. Otherwise core Terran issues aren't really addressed, although I think these buffs will make Terran Bio OP vZ and vP and we wont even get to see late game TvT thanks to the reaper buff. New Seeker Missile sucks if it got rid of splash and is pretty nice if it didn't, though it overlaps with Yamato a lot, Thor change is basically useless. I'm not really sure how Vehicle and Air upgrades being the same will work out, tbh I feel like this change will make Mech too strong since it really smooths out the transition into air but we'll have to see.
You say the patch doesn't address core issues, yet that it makes mech too strong.
What's a bigger core issue than making mech stronger/viable and terran tech switches easier?
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On December 06 2012 18:08 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:01 Bahamuth wrote:
The Medivac upgrade is very clever. Indirect but extremely relevant buff to lategame bio. That speed boost has a lot up up-time O.o
Seeker Missile sounds cool, but it's clearly meant to deal with Brood Lords and it's probably not going to get used against anything else (maybe Tempests? If it would turn out air is viable vs Terran).
Siege tanks. I expect them to really change the TvT mechanics since they will absolutely destroy tank lines.
That's a good point. We'll see if it works out but I'll laugh my ass off if the raven becomes the tank line killer that Blizzard originally envisioned from the warhound.
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On December 06 2012 18:48 Crawdad wrote:Are you high?
As many before me have shown, the single target DPS is only slightly stronger than the AoE version with something like +2 to 9 damage depending on upgrades. In exchange for losing the splash, I think the overall DPS vs most compositions is actually lower. Only vs well split Brood Lords (something most Zergs don't bother to do vT atm anyway) or Battlecruisers is the Thor change a substantial difference.
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On December 06 2012 18:48 Crawdad wrote:Are you high?
Even if you dont like the chages to its attack.. Blizzard removed the energy from the Thor, so mybe it will become viable in TvP now No more Feedback
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Heres my question because I didnt understand the wording, does the upgrade cause the incrase in cost or is that just now a permenent increase?
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On December 06 2012 18:52 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:
The new Medivac is hilariously OP, I can't see it staying as it is atm. Otherwise core Terran issues aren't really addressed, although I think these buffs will make Terran Bio OP vZ and vP and we wont even get to see late game TvT thanks to the reaper buff. New Seeker Missile sucks if it got rid of splash and is pretty nice if it didn't, though it overlaps with Yamato a lot, Thor change is basically useless. I'm not really sure how Vehicle and Air upgrades being the same will work out, tbh I feel like this change will make Mech too strong since it really smooths out the transition into air but we'll have to see.
You say the patch doesn't address core issues, yet that it makes mech too strong. What's a bigger core issue than making mech stronger/viable and terran tech switches easier?
Sorry, should have phrased that better, I was more referring to early game TvP which is ridiculously broken atm in HotS haha.
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EPT
