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On December 06 2012 18:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:35 Rollora wrote:On December 06 2012 18:03 Crawdad wrote:On December 06 2012 18:01 Bahamuth wrote:
Does anyone know how long the Void Ray ability lasts? I still really doubt this unit will have much use.
One thing I have noticed is that it massacres Corruptors. Which is good that way. Corruptors were the only anti air unit that could not be countered by another in any way, not even by BCs or by Carriers (ofc these 2 are not "air only" units like Vikings(airmode) or phoenixes), but then again, Vikings getting completely owned by corruptors, especially because of the larva mechanic vs the infrastructure of terran Kiting Vikings beat Corruptors cost for cost and supply for supply. Void Rays beat Corruptors supply for supply (1:1.5 ratio) And sry. "Not even BCs or Carriers" is bullshit. Corruptors/Vikings/Voidrays are meant to counter those. If they wouldn't, mass BCs wouldn't have a counter and thus be broken.
Hmm last point may be true, i dunno since BCs are non existent at this time: they can be countered by many things (and: if you can go to mass BCs, you must be hugely ahead).
And u cannot be serious about the viking kiting, as if I (or any player) during the match has the time for all this. Especially if you think about fungals, corruption, infested marines on the ground, mass reproduction of corruptors etc etc
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On December 06 2012 19:24 opterown wrote:
ahahaha, vortex
Wow this must be embarrassing for a Mothership 
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On December 06 2012 19:31 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 19:26 Pursuit_ wrote:On December 06 2012 19:23 one-one-one wrote:On December 06 2012 19:11 Pursuit_ wrote:On December 06 2012 18:59 one-one-one wrote:On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:
As a Terran, here are my initial thoughts.
The new Medivac is hilariously OP, I can't see it staying as it is atm. Otherwise core Terran issues aren't really addressed, although I think these buffs will make Terran Bio OP vZ and vP and we wont even get to see late game TvT thanks to the reaper buff. New Seeker Missile sucks if it got rid of splash and is pretty nice if it didn't, though it overlaps with Yamato a lot, Thor change is basically useless. I'm not really sure how Vehicle and Air upgrades being the same will work out, tbh I feel like this change will make Mech too strong since it really smooths out the transition into air but we'll have to see.
New Oracle looks a lot like a Pheonix with worse air-to-air but better air to ground and an AoE slow. Protoss changes in general are rather uninspiring. Vortex change is confusing, kills a single target instantly but can't hit massive? Seems kinda useless?
Zerg changes all look really good, would have like to see the Hydra supply reduced to 1 though, it still needs a bit of a buff IMO. Muta and Swarm Host changes are excellent however, Ultralisk just got a huge buff vs light ground but we'll have to see if that actually makes any difference.
Edit: New Dark Shrine + 7 Range Pheonix make Pheo / DT viable for PvZ yet? As a Terran I have to say you are seriously misguided. You seem stuck in a WoL mindset where mech TvP is a no-no and there are no such thing as blinding cloud time warp and such. I advise you to think things through again. Medivac heal ability might make marauders a bit too good yes, but that is it. It wont come in to play until the lategame because most players will probably still prefer to get reactored medivacs as soon as possible. As speed bonus goes it is a nice way to get away from fungal and templars with feedback. Now you actually have a chance to get out of range by using the speed boost making drops more viable throughout the game which rewards players with good mechanics. A very good thing imo. Thor changes are not useless. You gotta be trolling me. Just the fact that 250mm is gone together with the retarded energy bar makes it viable vs protoss again. Also, its dps/area has increased since the model and collission radius is smaller meaning you can fit more thors into the same area. The new single target anti air mode might be a bit useless in its current state though. I would like it to have a way higher dps given that thors are 6 supply... I agree that seeker missile overlaps with yamatoo, but its 10 range makes it outrange feedback. Ravens will now have a natural role to fill in TvP to snipe Tempests , colossus , immortals, archons and other "OP" units making it hard for a mech player. If I understand it correctly you can employ hit-and-run tacticts from range 10 by queing up a move command in the opposite direction of the target after aiming a seeker missile at it. And it will also be possible to cover the ground with 13 range siege tanks to cover ravens from high templars. A solid change imo. It overlaps with yamatoo too much, I agree. Yamatoo should do splash damage and less single target damage to compensate. This would make it an awesome T3 unit. I actually play Mech in both WoL (~50% of the time) and HotS in TvP, for reference. I don't think you really understand how substantial the medivac change is, this upgrade increases the healing power of each individual medivac to 5/3 what it was in WoL, basically nearly doubling it. It actually becomes cost effective to get the upgrade if you plan on having more than 4 Medivacs (since 3 Medivacs with the upgrade now heal as much as 5 would otherwise). I was more thinking of TvZ with this change, I just cant see Zerg doing damage fast enough to kill units with such a massive healing bonus. I actually wasn't thinking about the energy removal, that is a pretty significant buff in TvP (although I NEVER use Thors in TvP at the moment, I prefer to go hellion / tank / viking into sky terran), but the radius is an INCREASE in radius, not a decrease. As in bigger. Reducing DPS / area. Problem with 10 range seeker missile is if you use it at 10 range they have 3 full seconds to move it out of range where it becomes useless. So you still have to get in closer to guarantee damage. On December 06 2012 19:02 Bagi wrote:On December 06 2012 18:56 Pursuit_ wrote:On December 06 2012 18:48 Crawdad wrote:On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:Thor change is basically useless. Are you high? As many before me have shown, the single target DPS is only slightly stronger than the AoE version with something like +2 to 9 damage depending on upgrades. In exchange for losing the splash, I think the overall DPS vs most compositions is actually lower. Only vs well split Brood Lords (something most Zergs don't bother to do vT atm anyway) or Battlecruisers is the Thor change a substantial difference. Is it confirmed that the new AA attack has the same attack speed as the old one? Good point, if the attack speed is considerably faster then this would be a really strong buff for mech, perhaps too strong vZ  Medivac heal rate matters very little vs banelings. It is an indirect nerf vs fungal which is a good thing. I think it is a promising change since mass splash damage like fungal, colossus and storm is reduced in strength indirectly. All three races can pretty much hard counter bio by getting enough templars, colossus, fungals ,banelings or tanks. This change makes bio armies last slightly longer which might reduce the likelyhood of the opponent going for a no rush 20 minute game. I'd rather see them remove fungal root though, but this is the next best thing. You can very easily split vs banelings though. And bio has been proven to work vZ and vP already in late game (especially vP), so such a huge increase in healing ability feels like it will be OP in my opinion. Also, thanks for not being an arrogant asshole in this post You are welcome  But how does the new heal rate have to do anything with splitting vs banelings? I guess units that are left alive will heal faster, but my point was that if 2 banelings hits a marine it will die regardless of medivac heal rate ... It will matter the most on marauders and hellbats because of their high hp. But effectively it will only have the consequence that you will have to land that fungal a moment earlier, have 1 more colossus firing or a few more tanks to compensate. It also means that medivacs burn their energy faster. Does the upgrade still give +25 starting energy?
If you read the patchnotes carefully, it doesn't affect how fast energy is burned at all (heals 5 per 1 energy as opposed to 3 per 1 energy, scales perfectly with the new healing rate). And the new healing rate doesn't affect the burst damage of banelings much, but the point is that Terrans could already trade against banelings quite cost effectively before the change so that isn't a huge concern. The bigger change is vs Zerglings, Broodlings, Fungal and Ultralisks vZ and Zealots, Storm, Collosi, and Stalkers vP. Again I feel like you're underestimating this change, but ofc it's all theorycraft at this point since neither of us can test it.
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On December 06 2012 19:30 Lightspeaker wrote:
So.....Protoss loses Vortex and ALL of its inherent air-based anti-massive ground capability whilst buffing the hell out of the Ultralisk damage output.
Mass Immortal/Archon, anyone? Or...no just that.
Can't help but feel the Void Ray is going to remain a fairly poor choice.
Lolwut?
You complain that Ultras can't be countered by SG, when the new Void Ray is capable of doing just that, but then you say that the Void Ray is a poor choice? And don't forget about Corruptors.
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1395 Posts
You do realise muta speed was boosted, and oracles will also be fairly good against harrasments, not to mention if you got oracles you also can easily get other air, which means that dropping would be harder without boosts to compensate.
Not saying it wont be required to nerf it a bit later on, especially the cooldown imo, but it isnt that bad.
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On December 06 2012 19:24 opterown wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mAHCf.jpg) ahahaha, vortex
Wait, does this mean that whatever that walks over a vortex is instantly killed? If that's the case it's actually useful.
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Wow, so many changes. Good thing the beta really is used for testing!
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On December 06 2012 19:28 Tsubbi wrote:
6 air units for protoss just seem too much, overlapping in roles
Mothership: useless gimmick unit
Carrier: endgame capital ship
Tempest: Long range late game, forces engagements
Voidray: midgame, huge dps to armored
Oracle: harasser, good vs light
phoenix: harasser, antiair
would rather have them remove mothership and one of the other air units and focus more on protoss ground
blizzard especially seems to have a hard time finding a role for the oracle, every patch basically had a redesign of the unit, it does seem to overlap with the phoenix somehow
maybe it works out in the end, but atm stargate tech seems a little bloated and redundant
True enough...
Carrier, tempest and Phoenix are fine.
Void ray is like too much like a midgame carrier. It should be changed into slow, heavy air to ground attacker, while being more vulnerable vs other air units. Every other toss air already needs to be microed heavily, voids should be more of a split and 1a.
Oracle needs to not be a "harass" unit, instead make it a late game support caster, with recall, slowing field, passive invisibility field and its current attack.
Mothership should be removed.
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On December 06 2012 19:31 Sra wrote:
is this patch live in EU?
If so is 2v2 available and is the clan spam fixed?
Wadaya mean "live in EU"? There's only one HOTS server.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 06 2012 19:44 playnice wrote:Wait, does this mean that whatever that walks over a vortex is instantly killed? If that's the case it's actually useful.
nah, i doubt it
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On December 06 2012 08:28 Rudermensch wrote:Oh wow, some of these changes are really amazing. I like the Thor idea as another way for mech to deal with Brood Lords. Medivac changes are intense. Ultralisk change is nice, but I'm still not sure about it closing space on units. I'm still sad that Carrier wasn't touched though. Edit: really happy they're messing with older units though!
Probably posted, but carrier is changed http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386472
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On December 06 2012 19:24 opterown wrote:ahahaha, vortex
I just... I don't even... I have nothing further to say.
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On December 06 2012 19:44 playnice wrote:Wait, does this mean that whatever that walks over a vortex is instantly killed? If that's the case it's actually useful.
But it doesn't work on massive and the energy has probably been stayed the same, so.. killing 1 unit every 2 minutes or sth isn't really that impressive.
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This is how looks patch without proper testing and thinking. Just some random things and hoping for at least 25% success. They really dont know what to do with this game to balance it.
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On December 06 2012 19:51 EtherealDeath wrote:I just... I don't even... I have nothing further to say.
Yeah, it's kind of anticlimactic. Like watching a bazooka fire out a nerf pellet. Mothership should honestly just be removed so the oracle can take its place.
On December 06 2012 19:54 Frosty4ever wrote:
This is how looks patch without proper testing and thinking. Just some random things and hoping for at least 25% success. They really dont know what to do with this game to balance it.
What were the most glaring flaws in the previous build? A bunch of random things. Some people will complain no matter what, Jesus...
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I don't get why Blizzard doesn't remove the Mothership alltogether. They've indicated that they want to make it useless for competitive play and they're doing that with this Vortex-change, but what's the point in still keeping in a gimmick unit that no serious player will want to make? Just scrap the thing and rename the Mothership Core to something that makes more sense.
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Where did that Infestor nerf come from..?
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On December 06 2012 19:37 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 19:31 one-one-one wrote:On December 06 2012 19:26 Pursuit_ wrote:On December 06 2012 19:23 one-one-one wrote:On December 06 2012 19:11 Pursuit_ wrote:On December 06 2012 18:59 one-one-one wrote:On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:
As a Terran, here are my initial thoughts.
The new Medivac is hilariously OP, I can't see it staying as it is atm. Otherwise core Terran issues aren't really addressed, although I think these buffs will make Terran Bio OP vZ and vP and we wont even get to see late game TvT thanks to the reaper buff. New Seeker Missile sucks if it got rid of splash and is pretty nice if it didn't, though it overlaps with Yamato a lot, Thor change is basically useless. I'm not really sure how Vehicle and Air upgrades being the same will work out, tbh I feel like this change will make Mech too strong since it really smooths out the transition into air but we'll have to see.
New Oracle looks a lot like a Pheonix with worse air-to-air but better air to ground and an AoE slow. Protoss changes in general are rather uninspiring. Vortex change is confusing, kills a single target instantly but can't hit massive? Seems kinda useless?
Zerg changes all look really good, would have like to see the Hydra supply reduced to 1 though, it still needs a bit of a buff IMO. Muta and Swarm Host changes are excellent however, Ultralisk just got a huge buff vs light ground but we'll have to see if that actually makes any difference.
Edit: New Dark Shrine + 7 Range Pheonix make Pheo / DT viable for PvZ yet? As a Terran I have to say you are seriously misguided. You seem stuck in a WoL mindset where mech TvP is a no-no and there are no such thing as blinding cloud time warp and such. I advise you to think things through again. Medivac heal ability might make marauders a bit too good yes, but that is it. It wont come in to play until the lategame because most players will probably still prefer to get reactored medivacs as soon as possible. As speed bonus goes it is a nice way to get away from fungal and templars with feedback. Now you actually have a chance to get out of range by using the speed boost making drops more viable throughout the game which rewards players with good mechanics. A very good thing imo. Thor changes are not useless. You gotta be trolling me. Just the fact that 250mm is gone together with the retarded energy bar makes it viable vs protoss again. Also, its dps/area has increased since the model and collission radius is smaller meaning you can fit more thors into the same area. The new single target anti air mode might be a bit useless in its current state though. I would like it to have a way higher dps given that thors are 6 supply... I agree that seeker missile overlaps with yamatoo, but its 10 range makes it outrange feedback. Ravens will now have a natural role to fill in TvP to snipe Tempests , colossus , immortals, archons and other "OP" units making it hard for a mech player. If I understand it correctly you can employ hit-and-run tacticts from range 10 by queing up a move command in the opposite direction of the target after aiming a seeker missile at it. And it will also be possible to cover the ground with 13 range siege tanks to cover ravens from high templars. A solid change imo. It overlaps with yamatoo too much, I agree. Yamatoo should do splash damage and less single target damage to compensate. This would make it an awesome T3 unit. I actually play Mech in both WoL (~50% of the time) and HotS in TvP, for reference. I don't think you really understand how substantial the medivac change is, this upgrade increases the healing power of each individual medivac to 5/3 what it was in WoL, basically nearly doubling it. It actually becomes cost effective to get the upgrade if you plan on having more than 4 Medivacs (since 3 Medivacs with the upgrade now heal as much as 5 would otherwise). I was more thinking of TvZ with this change, I just cant see Zerg doing damage fast enough to kill units with such a massive healing bonus. I actually wasn't thinking about the energy removal, that is a pretty significant buff in TvP (although I NEVER use Thors in TvP at the moment, I prefer to go hellion / tank / viking into sky terran), but the radius is an INCREASE in radius, not a decrease. As in bigger. Reducing DPS / area. Problem with 10 range seeker missile is if you use it at 10 range they have 3 full seconds to move it out of range where it becomes useless. So you still have to get in closer to guarantee damage. On December 06 2012 19:02 Bagi wrote:On December 06 2012 18:56 Pursuit_ wrote:On December 06 2012 18:48 Crawdad wrote:On December 06 2012 18:43 Pursuit_ wrote:Thor change is basically useless. Are you high? As many before me have shown, the single target DPS is only slightly stronger than the AoE version with something like +2 to 9 damage depending on upgrades. In exchange for losing the splash, I think the overall DPS vs most compositions is actually lower. Only vs well split Brood Lords (something most Zergs don't bother to do vT atm anyway) or Battlecruisers is the Thor change a substantial difference. Is it confirmed that the new AA attack has the same attack speed as the old one? Good point, if the attack speed is considerably faster then this would be a really strong buff for mech, perhaps too strong vZ Medivac heal rate matters very little vs banelings. It is an indirect nerf vs fungal which is a good thing. I think it is a promising change since mass splash damage like fungal, colossus and storm is reduced in strength indirectly. All three races can pretty much hard counter bio by getting enough templars, colossus, fungals ,banelings or tanks. This change makes bio armies last slightly longer which might reduce the likelyhood of the opponent going for a no rush 20 minute game. I'd rather see them remove fungal root though, but this is the next best thing. You can very easily split vs banelings though. And bio has been proven to work vZ and vP already in late game (especially vP), so such a huge increase in healing ability feels like it will be OP in my opinion. Also, thanks for not being an arrogant asshole in this post You are welcome But how does the new heal rate have to do anything with splitting vs banelings? I guess units that are left alive will heal faster, but my point was that if 2 banelings hits a marine it will die regardless of medivac heal rate ... It will matter the most on marauders and hellbats because of their high hp. But effectively it will only have the consequence that you will have to land that fungal a moment earlier, have 1 more colossus firing or a few more tanks to compensate. It also means that medivacs burn their energy faster. Does the upgrade still give +25 starting energy? If you read the patchnotes carefully, it doesn't affect how fast energy is burned at all (heals 5 per 1 energy as opposed to 3 per 1 energy, scales perfectly with the new healing rate). And the new healing rate doesn't affect the burst damage of banelings much, but the point is that Terrans could already trade against banelings quite cost effectively before the change so that isn't a huge concern. The bigger change is vs Zerglings, Broodlings, Fungal and Ultralisks vZ and Zealots, Storm, Collosi, and Stalkers vP. Again I feel like you're underestimating this change, but ofc it's all theorycraft at this point since neither of us can test it.
Yeah you are right. Silly me.
But all that is in WoL.
The full effects of time warp, blinding cloud and higher ultra dmg vs marines has yet to be seen.
I don't think the higher heal rate will affect much in the lategame.
I am already thinking of an opener like 1-rax expand into hellion banshee with a caduceus reactor upgrade to fake cloak
I also wanna try upgraded medivacs in TvP mech.
The idea is to open with banshee harass while upgrading cloak and caduceus reactor.
Then you pump out 2-4 medivacs from a reactored starport and drop hellions/hellbats like crazy.
You can then extend the purpose of the medivacs by making sure you dont suicide them.
Medivacs healing hellbats at the front might make TvP mech engagements trade a lot better
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EPT
