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On October 28 2012 00:22 AbideWithMe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 00:18 Crawdad wrote:On October 28 2012 00:06 AbideWithMe wrote:
I called it before and it is true now. These changes are arbitrary and ridiculous. Time Warp is a beyond insane ability. On the contrary, players were asking for this, and it was obvious that Blizzard was going to replace Void Siphon with an army support spell that did something like this. I didn't expect Entomb to be removed, but hey, that's even better. Sorry dude, but I don't see them reversing this decision. XD I would literally bet about 300 dollars that Time Warp will be gone within the next two patches. Anybody willing to take this bet?
I'll take that bet. Though not for money 
I think it will stay in the game because blizzard finally realized that they have to make the game more interesting.
The spider mines and the blinding cloud and the timewarp all have the same idea.
A superstrong ability that is hard to counter and can totally change the outcomes of battles and yet is not all powerful.
I think if they go with this philosophy the game will take longer to balance but the end result will be much more interesting to play.
Oh and I can tell you the oracle pulsar beam is so fucking kick-ass.
Advantages over the void ray:
- Speed - Nothing can catch the oracle, get in destroy a few buildings, get out before anyone can react
- no charge up delay - isntant high damage
- cheaper
- faster to build
- has reveal and time warp
going void ray was risky thing before, going oracle is already a much easier decision to make, since you don't only get harrass ability but also defensive boosts for your gateway army (time warp) AND nice scouting with reveal.
At the same time it dies SO FAST that only good player will really be able to use it.
It's the perfect protoss unit IMHO.
Timewarp will probably change a lot until release but I think this time they'll keep it.
It's a perfect alternative to sentries.
Also I just want to mention again that using an army with more than 2 caster types is really almost impossible.
especially casting time warp and ff at the same time is so hard that people will rarely do it. Plus the gas costs for too many different casters will be too high.
On a side note: anyone in EU beta Hots up for some team games?
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Time warp is essentially is a sick spell!! I love it! Makes gateway units much more powerful, especially zealots.
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Still not in the beta to experience this T___T
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@Freeborn:
Please tell me how this makes the game anymore interesting for Terrans. Interesting in the sense of frustrating and "Fuck why toss so op" and for zerg it will be more interesting in the sense of building mutas or fast infestor every single game because otherwise you die to oracles either through harass or this crazy time warp crap.
So yeah PvP is definitely going to be more interesting. and it will be really interesting to see if we ever see a terran in the ladder again.
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On October 27 2012 05:38 Lithian wrote:
Problem with the pulsar beam is that it only causes real harassment damage to Terran and even then few well placed missile turrets can nullify the threat. Even thought Oracle is fast enough to probably dodge those turrets, it'd require too much attention and control to cause meaningful damage.
Then again, no ones tried this new ability yet, and that's just theory crafting. I'm sure someone will find some really cool use for it. So give some time eh?
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thank god they removed entomb. what were they smoking when they came up with that ability?! the only way economy should be interrupted/disrupted is by killing/endangering workers
also, i think time warp will be good support for carriers vs mass marines
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On October 28 2012 02:10 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 00:22 AbideWithMe wrote:On October 28 2012 00:18 Crawdad wrote:On October 28 2012 00:06 AbideWithMe wrote:
I called it before and it is true now. These changes are arbitrary and ridiculous. Time Warp is a beyond insane ability. On the contrary, players were asking for this, and it was obvious that Blizzard was going to replace Void Siphon with an army support spell that did something like this. I didn't expect Entomb to be removed, but hey, that's even better. Sorry dude, but I don't see them reversing this decision. XD I would literally bet about 300 dollars that Time Warp will be gone within the next two patches. Anybody willing to take this bet? Me. 100%. Lets paypal this shit. I could use 300 bucks. Blizzard likes Timewarp. The community response to TW has been overwhelmingly positive. It may be too strong currently, but knowing Blizzard they will definitely spend multiple patches trying to get the balance right before doing any fundamental redesign. TW is likely here to stay in some form, but if it isn't it is definitely not going to be gone within 2 patches--fucking entomb lasted 6 patches. C'mon lets do this. I could really use your money.
Hahaha. Time warp will most likely stay this time, I think they got it right :D. But it is too powerful of a spell that makes a difference in engagements.
Against Zerg, Time Warp works well because it is effective enough to make a difference in battle. Against of the overall unit composition of mass zerglings/infestor etc., Zerg is kind of meant to mass and can move quickly out of range, but good storms and blink can still do a lot of damage. But microing bio units / moving mech that are under the spell are just bound to die to storm or colossus. Overall it is a useful and good spell that should exist, but not with the effectiveness of radius/delay of movement speed it has. This is a spellcaster unit that adds to the Protoss ball of death, so it should be used wisely-- not click and cover the terran mass to give Protoss the mindset of: "Alright it's landed so I can attack now with good confidence". If Protoss were to achieve a situation with oracle, templar and colossus, it would be a uphill battle to engage. Not sure how it works PvP o.o.
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On October 28 2012 03:10 esprsjsalvz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 05:38 Lithian wrote:
Problem with the pulsar beam is that it only causes real harassment damage to Terran and even then few well placed missile turrets can nullify the threat. Even thought Oracle is fast enough to probably dodge those turrets, it'd require too much attention and control to cause meaningful damage. Then again, no ones tried this new ability yet, and that's just theory crafting. I'm sure someone will find some really cool use for it. So give some time eh?
Since it has 5 range and the Oracle can't attack every single Marine/Queen/Stalker should be able to deny it from doing much. Of course the numbers can change, but at the state it is now it seems pretty obsolete.
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can we get some videos of an oracle harassing an enemy base and also of time warp being cast during a big battle?
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Pulsar Beam is better than I thought, I reckoned it would be all about Time Warp, but nah.
Now the neglected spell is Revelation. I think it should cost 50 energy, or it will always take away from the more powerful abilities. Or it should be more useful somehow. Also, I think that the names of Envision and Revelation should be switched.
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On October 28 2012 04:40 Crawdad wrote:
Pulsar Beam is better than I thought, I reckoned it would be all about Time Warp, but nah.
Now the neglected spell is Revelation. I think it should cost 50 energy, or it will always take away from the more powerful abilities. Or it should be more useful somehow. Also, I think that the names of Envision and Revelation should be switched.
they said revelation is a late game minded spell to track army movements
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Gotta say I like the way blizzard seem to be converging on a set of units everyone's going to want to use. Blinding cloud should be the spell that makes it possible to nerf infestors without ending zerg's game at the 14 minute mark, the oracle is going to make Protoss fucking annoying, just as they should be, and Terrans finally have a better version of the baneling, just like they have a better version of everything else
Seriously though, it feels like hots finally has some direction and purpose. I think swarm hosts.might need a tweak, and it would be awesome if hydra got more love, but it's looking good for the first time in a while.
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On October 28 2012 04:54 Umpteen wrote:Gotta say I like the way blizzard seem to be converging on a set of units everyone's going to want to use. Blinding cloud should be the spell that makes it possible to nerf infestors without ending zerg's game at the 14 minute mark, the oracle is going to make Protoss fucking annoying, just as they should be, and Terrans finally have a better version of the baneling, just like they have a better version of everything else Seriously though, it feels like hots finally has some direction and purpose. I think swarm hosts.might need a tweak, and it would be awesome if hydra got more love, but it's looking good for the first time in a while.
It's certainly making everything more exciting. Terran really needs some good mech AA other than Vikings, though. That's the last thing that really stands out to me so far about HotS. Everything else has been pretty good or at least interesting for the last couple patches, now. I'm excited :D
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I must say, chargelot openings in PvT and PvP are BRUTAL now with timewarp. I really think it might get changed, but I honestly think they should keep it in, and in the same state and allow players to adjust to it's presence, unlike how they got rid of warhound. It is such an awesome spell that has basic uses at low levels (casting it over MMM and a-moving chargelots) and a lot of potential in high level play, especially combining it with other casters.
Even after one or two games with the new patch I was having to totally re-work my hotkey setup, especially for late-game. Trying to tab through sentries, templar, oracles, phoenixes, colossus, tempests, blink stalkers, warp prisms, observers in a battle is just laughable, but the multi-hotkey use is something that is definitely putting a high skill cap on getting the most out of the Protoss army. I LOVE IT. Even if I can't execute it perfectly, when I DO get off that TW->Storm->FF combo it is SO satisfying. Can't wait to see some games of Whitera, Grubby and other beta-ing Pro's to start wrecking shop with this stuff.
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On October 28 2012 04:37 mishimaBeef wrote:
can we get some videos of an oracle harassing an enemy base and also of time warp being cast during a big battle?
yea i would like to see a casted replay or something like this as well. i honestly just dont see pulsar beam being very effective against a good opponent. maybe im wrong and it is pretty good but i think it would be better if the oracle could attack units as well(with lower dps of course).
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Wow, i think it's (one of) the first times the patch has unanimously been accepted via polls.
Great job by blizzard imo. I agree with most of it, if not all of it.
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I would be excited about these changes if they weren't ignoring all the other fundamental problems with the game. They're focusing way too much on new units and abilities when they should be focusing on the core mechanics being so inferior to brood war's.
More micro-ability for units is what we need. The game will practically balance itself if that is done.
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On October 27 2012 17:35 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 10:28 -Kyo- wrote:On October 27 2012 10:25 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote:
What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it:
Change Mine supply to 1
Build time cut by 1/4
Mine is destroyed when activated
Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now. Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game. What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol. He's playing the beta, you obviously aren't. He's correct in his assessment that the mines are what allow mech TvP to get running, and as the game goes into lategame you do not want more than 10 supply worth of mines on the map. Mines in HOTS allow Terran to pour vespene gas into factory and armory infrastructure without flat out dying to: DTS, void rays, blink stalkers so easily like in wings of liberty. You'll notice wings of liberty mech requires you to do crazy shit, like always make a starport, always need a raven, always need siege mode/tanks meaning you can never move out on the map, etc. When you're pouring 100 gas into a starport, 200 gas into a raven to protect vs DTS, 100 gas into an armory, 75 gas into vikings as the only realistic AA option...that's over 400-500 vespene gas dedicated to simply not dying to random all-ins and various things. What the widow mine does in HOTS is give Terran users a reliable way to pour all of that wings of liberty vespene gas into factories, allowing more possibilities for mech play in the match-up. As the game goes into the later stages, the mines become progressively weaker to the point where you want basically want no more than 4-5 mines on the map because they take away from your army value. Mines cannot fight against a lategame Protoss deathball of tempests + anything effectively. The problem now is the same problem that exists in wings of liberty for Terran - there is no mech anti-air option. Right now the only real option is "make a lot of vikings," which is a catch-22 because zerg and protoss ground units absolutely kill grounded vikings meaning in the scenario you kill the opponent's air, you're left with a bad army that dies to the ground remax, or the situation where your vikings die to their air + storms/fungals...you simply die. Sorry for the long post, just had to debunk your sensationalist bullshit about the mine being good lategame and OP with a logical post. I never thought it would happen, but i think i agree with you here.
While i do think vikings are reasonable (but very hard) anti air for mech, i'd really love to see another anti-air option for mech. Maybe not much stronger, but one that fits the composition better. Maybe a viking change could be an answer for that as well.
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What Terran needs is a mobile missle turret, probably carried by 4 scv minions holding it up as they move over the battlefield.
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On October 28 2012 05:37 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 17:35 avilo wrote:On October 27 2012 10:28 -Kyo- wrote:On October 27 2012 10:25 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote:
What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it:
Change Mine supply to 1
Build time cut by 1/4
Mine is destroyed when activated
Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now. Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game. What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol. He's playing the beta, you obviously aren't. He's correct in his assessment that the mines are what allow mech TvP to get running, and as the game goes into lategame you do not want more than 10 supply worth of mines on the map. Mines in HOTS allow Terran to pour vespene gas into factory and armory infrastructure without flat out dying to: DTS, void rays, blink stalkers so easily like in wings of liberty. You'll notice wings of liberty mech requires you to do crazy shit, like always make a starport, always need a raven, always need siege mode/tanks meaning you can never move out on the map, etc. When you're pouring 100 gas into a starport, 200 gas into a raven to protect vs DTS, 100 gas into an armory, 75 gas into vikings as the only realistic AA option...that's over 400-500 vespene gas dedicated to simply not dying to random all-ins and various things. What the widow mine does in HOTS is give Terran users a reliable way to pour all of that wings of liberty vespene gas into factories, allowing more possibilities for mech play in the match-up. As the game goes into the later stages, the mines become progressively weaker to the point where you want basically want no more than 4-5 mines on the map because they take away from your army value. Mines cannot fight against a lategame Protoss deathball of tempests + anything effectively. The problem now is the same problem that exists in wings of liberty for Terran - there is no mech anti-air option. Right now the only real option is "make a lot of vikings," which is a catch-22 because zerg and protoss ground units absolutely kill grounded vikings meaning in the scenario you kill the opponent's air, you're left with a bad army that dies to the ground remax, or the situation where your vikings die to their air + storms/fungals...you simply die. Sorry for the long post, just had to debunk your sensationalist bullshit about the mine being good lategame and OP with a logical post. I never thought it would happen, but i think i agree with you here. While i do think vikings are reasonable (but very hard) anti air for mech, i'd really love to see another anti-air option for mech. Maybe not much stronger, but one that fits the composition better. Maybe a viking change could be an answer for that as well.
Wouldn't a +armor/massive tag for Thor anti-air be enough? I know Tempests have stupid long range, but with whatever unit you theorycraft, i'm certain it wouldn't have 16 range to hit the Tempest. Thor would then be good vs Broodlords as well.
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EPT
