Oracle The Void Siphon and Entomb abilities have been removed. This unit has a new ability called Pulsar Beam. The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 25 damage every second. 2 mana is drained per second from the Oracle while this ability is channeled. This ability has a range of 5. This unit has a new ability called Time Warp. The Oracle creates a temporal field that slows all ground units’ movement speed within a 3.5 radius by 50%. This ability costs 75 energy to cast This ability can be cast from 9 range. Oracle build time has decreased from 60 to 35 seconds.
Tempest Damage has been increased from 25 to 30. The +massive damage bonus no longer requires an upgrade at the Fleet Beacon. +Massive damage has been decreased from 35 to 30.
Mothership Core This unit has a new ability called Envision. This ability grants the Mothership Core detection for 30 seconds. This ability costs 50 energy to cast. This ability grants detection within the Mothership Core’s sight range (14). The Purify ability no longer grants detection to the Nexus. The Purify ability has been renamed to “Photon Overcharge”.
Terran
Hellion Transformation to Hellbat no longer requires an upgrade and is enabled once an Armory is built.
Zerg
Ultralisk The speed of Burrow Charge has been increased from 2.25 to 3.75.
Viper The duration of Blinding Cloud has been increased from 10 to 14 seconds.
Spine Crawler This unit now completely blocks pathing when placed next to other structures, including other Spine Crawlers. Zerglings and other small units can no longer squeeze in between Spine Crawlers. The scale of this unit has been increased from 0.85 to 0.95.
We’ve received a lot of community and pro-player feedback on the Oracle, some of which we totally agree with. In particular, we felt that the following feedback was spot on:
1. The Oracle was a unit that didn’t allow players to show much differentiation in skill. Entomb was its main spell, and it made little difference whether it was a Silver or Master level player casting this ability. 2. Entomb wasn’t a fun spectator spell because there were no varying degrees of success; it was either cast or not cast. 3. The Oracle didn’t add much to the army when it was done harassing the enemy’s base.
In response, we’re taking a different direction with the Oracle. We’ve tried many different abilities for this unit and have come up with two that we think are a step in the right direction – Pulsar Beam and Time Warp.
Oracle This unit has a new ability called Pulsar Beam. The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 25 damage every second. 2 mana is drained per second from the Oracle while this ability is channeled. This ability has a range of 5. This unit has a new ability called Time Warp. The Oracle creates a temporal field that slows all ground units’ movement speed within a 3.5 radius by 50%. This ability costs 75 energy to cast This ability can be cast from 9 range.
We believe that Pulsar Beam solves issues 1 and 2. Even in internal testing, we’re seeing a crystal clear difference when a Master level player uses it versus when a platinum player uses it, and there are always different degrees of success depending on how well the player uses it and how well the opponent counters it. For the last ability, we want a spell that does two main things: allows the Oracle to join the army and affect the battle, and help improve Pulsar Beam harassment. We feel Time Warp does both of these things.
We’re very excited to test the new Oracle in the live beta environment, and encourage you to share your constructive feedback once you’ve played with the new spells.
Mothership Core’s new detection spell
We heard a lot of your feedback regarding the way the Mothership Core grants detection following the changes brought about in the last beta patch. We felt that because detection was tied to the Nexus after the last patch, we lost the original intent for the spell which was to give Protoss players the option to not have to build a Robotics Bay when there are only 1-2 cloaked units in play. After further discussion, we decided that what we want with the temporary detection spell is something that can be used as a soft detection mechanism versus a very small number of cloaked threats, but still requires Protoss players to build Observers if their opponent is building a larger number of cloaked Banshees or Dark Templars.
Spine Crawlers
The changes to Spine Crawlers were made to help Zerg defense in early game ZvZ. We found that Zerg tier 2 and 3 battles have changed a lot in Heart of the Swarm, and we wanted to make it slightly easier for Zerg players to get to tier 2 in the matchup. Not only that, newer players found it confusing that Spine Crawlers appear to block pathing in a 2x2 radius when built, but small units such as Zerglings were able to squeeze by. Therefore, we made the decision to prevent pathing around this unit when placed next to other structures, and we increased its size slightly to reflect this.
You may also notice that we’ve tweaked a few other numbers this week, so please take some time to read over the patch notes to see exactly what’s changed. As always, we will continue adjusting the numbers throughout the beta and keeping a close on your feedback, so please continue to share your constructive feedback.
Problem with the pulsar beam is that it only causes real harassment damage to Terran and even then few well placed missile turrets can nullify the threat. Even thought Oracle is fast enough to probably dodge those turrets, it'd require too much attention and control to cause meaningful damage.
Those are quite substantial buffs for burrow charge and blinding cloud. And I still think that oracle will turn into an outright battle-caster. I guess we will see how it works out. Other then that Mothership core detection spell is boring and the hellbat change should never have required an upgrade in the first place.
MSC detection is fantastic. Good balance between soft detection but not completely inhibiting cloaked harassment. Really excited to have stargate as a solid option for opening in all match ups.
On October 27 2012 06:03 Noocta wrote: I'm a little bit worried than Time Warp + any kind of aoe damage will make it impossible to play Boi against protoss. :/
How do you dodge storm if your whole deathball is slowed from 9 range away ? Vikings can't even prevent that :O
Can you snipe it from a distance or emp it with a ghost??
Nice cast range, effect radius and energy cost on time warp. Also a damage buff for pulsar beam from the number we heard mid-week. They're finally getting serious about making the oracle worth building.
On October 27 2012 06:03 Noocta wrote: I'm a little bit worried than Time Warp + any kind of aoe damage will make it impossible to play Boi against protoss. :/
How do you dodge storm if your whole deathball is slowed from 9 range away ? Vikings can't even prevent that :O
Keep in mind that if they are investing gas into a stargate and Oracles any AOE is going to come out much slower
I still feel pulsar beam is not as cool as it could have been. It'd be great if it could target and drain energy for harassing macro structures and queens.
Oracle/Phoenix openings are going to be brutal. First thing I'm trying when the patch hits. 2-3 Oracles doing damage to a hatchery with 2-3 phoenixes lifting/killing queens, possibly with MS core for support. That's some brutal harassment potential.
On October 27 2012 06:03 Noocta wrote: I'm a little bit worried than Time Warp + any kind of aoe damage will make it impossible to play Boi against protoss. :/
How do you dodge storm if your whole deathball is slowed from 9 range away ? Vikings can't even prevent that :O
That's my main worry too. I feel like it empowers the protoss deathball too much. We'll see i guess, all in all it's still a great patch, which changes a lot of things in the right direction imho.
On October 27 2012 06:03 Noocta wrote: I'm a little bit worried than Time Warp + any kind of aoe damage will make it impossible to play Boi against protoss. :/
How do you dodge storm if your whole deathball is slowed from 9 range away ? Vikings can't even prevent that :O
Vikings have 9 range, I believe and a small number of them will be able to insta murder any oracle that comes into that range. As long as you don’t keep them clumped, in a ball over your army, I think they can zone out the oracle.
Anyways, I would rather have the ability be to powerful in beta, than weak and useless.
On October 27 2012 06:03 Noocta wrote: I'm a little bit worried than Time Warp + any kind of aoe damage will make it impossible to play Boi against protoss. :/
How do you dodge storm if your whole deathball is slowed from 9 range away ? Vikings can't even prevent that :O
Well, it makes things more about positioning. I like it in theory. Not sure how it'll actually pan out though. I guess we'll have to see.
...so time warp sounds like another ridiculous positioning spell if used with ff, storm, colossus...A few time warps in the middle of the fight or end means if toss is winning the fight, other side can't run away....
The changes to Spine Crawlers were made to help Zerg defense in early game ZvZ. We found that Zerg tier 2 and 3 battles have changed a lot in Heart of the Swarm, and we wanted to make it slightly easier for Zerg players to get to tier 2 in the matchup. Not only that, newer players found it confusing that Spine Crawlers appear to block pathing in a 2x2 radius when built, but small units such as Zerglings were able to squeeze by. Therefore, we made the decision to prevent pathing around this unit when placed next to other structures, and we increased its size slightly to reflect this.
For a sec I thought this was to help Protoss break down Spine/Infestor walls and thought they did a great change, then I read this.
Oracle+Templar, hell yeah. If Terran was still be a force to be reckoned with I'd think this would be sweet. But now (Bio) Terran will have an even harder time in the (late) lategame.
holy crap, look at those polls. people are saying blizzard made good changes...... wtf happened? Did people finally realise that its a beta and things are not as they will be when released, that the whole purpose of a beta is to actually find out what works and what doesn't? It seems so!
On October 27 2012 06:03 Noocta wrote: I'm a little bit worried than Time Warp + any kind of aoe damage will make it impossible to play Boi against protoss. :/
How do you dodge storm if your whole deathball is slowed from 9 range away ? Vikings can't even prevent that :O
Vikings have 9 range, I believe and a small number of them will be able to insta murder any oracle that comes into that range. As long as you don’t keep them clumped, in a ball over your army, I think they can zone out the oracle.
Anyways, I would rather have the ability be to powerful in beta, than weak and useless.
Yeah, viking have 9 range. Meaning the Oracle run on you, and cast the spell before the viking's missile destroy it.
I know iit's costly but that doesn't mean it's impossible to make. And I know it's a positioning spell. But it's one like Forcefield or Fungal : once you're catch in it, you're dead if any army is near.
Good this is much better. The battle helion form, should just be an upgrade from tech lab, i think. Overall good job. Now all i need is a FU*KING BETA KEY
On October 27 2012 06:03 Noocta wrote: I'm a little bit worried than Time Warp + any kind of aoe damage will make it impossible to play Boi against protoss. :/
How do you dodge storm if your whole deathball is slowed from 9 range away ? Vikings can't even prevent that :O
Vikings have 9 range, I believe and a small number of them will be able to insta murder any oracle that comes into that range. As long as you don’t keep them clumped, in a ball over your army, I think they can zone out the oracle.
Anyways, I would rather have the ability be to powerful in beta, than weak and useless.
Yeah, viking have 9 range. Meaning the Oracle run on you, and cast the spell before the viking's missile destroy it.
I know iit's costly but that doesn't mean it's impossible to make. And I know it's a positioning spell. But it's one like Forcefield or Fungal : once you're catch in it, you're dead if any army is near.
Lucky for us all that its beta and things can change. The ability is powerful and useful in a lot of ways. It may be powerful end game as well. But it is also a reason for protoss to try Stargate openings. Unless you like us going robo to colossi every game.
Haha, the poll is positive across the board. Is this really TL? ;-)
The Oracle is very weak and also gas expensive. If anything they can tweak the number on the radius of Time Warp and the energy cost. Much more to the point, let it play out. In my eyes, it does not seem to be something that will "break" the game.
Balance really should not be a primary concern in the Beta.
Too bad the new slow effect for the Oracle wasn't just a change to Fungal I don't see how it fits for the protoss to have a slow as Terran and Zerg rely on their speed to engage and surround or dodge away from the army to survive.
On October 27 2012 06:03 Noocta wrote: I'm a little bit worried than Time Warp + any kind of aoe damage will make it impossible to play Boi against protoss. :/
How do you dodge storm if your whole deathball is slowed from 9 range away ? Vikings can't even prevent that :O
Vikings have 9 range, I believe and a small number of them will be able to insta murder any oracle that comes into that range. As long as you don’t keep them clumped, in a ball over your army, I think they can zone out the oracle.
Anyways, I would rather have the ability be to powerful in beta, than weak and useless.
Yeah, viking have 9 range. Meaning the Oracle run on you, and cast the spell before the viking's missile destroy it.
I know iit's costly but that doesn't mean it's impossible to make. And I know it's a positioning spell. But it's one like Forcefield or Fungal : once you're catch in it, you're dead if any army is near.
Nah, it is no fungal. Most damage from fungal comes from the actual ..well damage. It was root only before - not to many people cared. Furthermore: Time Warp is not rooting you. Your stimmed bio will still be about as fast as a HT while in the zone. That means: It can move out before the HT has moved in range. (They tend to stay in the back, so they don't prematurely die to snipes).
Really like the changes, only criticism is the lack of giving energize back to the mothership core, with entomb gone feel like they should be able to give it back, but dunno. Otherwise definitely like it. I hope you can cast the time spell on workers.
Tempest seems still too strong for me even better now ...I mean no fleet beacon and the upgrade does not need fleet beacon aswell + damage increased. Mhhhm
On October 27 2012 06:18 GungraveHero2 wrote: guess they realy want all terran to stop this game ?
ho you removed a upgrade who was kinda fast to get anyway ? amazing , if you wanted a real buff you remove the armory requirement .
they dont even buff the race.... im a 1500 master terran and honestly -50 % speed reduction = will be realy huge
guess that time im stoping this game , blizzard clearly dont care about terran , and hots start to look a even harder game for terran .... lol .
Gotta love comments like these. Do you really think they are sitting around at Blizzard HQ going: "*snikkers* Lets fuck over the Terran race, mmyees will be fun watching them suffer muhahahahah".
Stuff is getting a bit better but the oracle is still a crappy design.
Huge range makes it benefit deathball play a bit actually. It's also yet one more deterrant to attacking protoss. Against any tech protoss goes you simply can't poke and harass safely: - sentries FF you whenever you move up a ramp => you can't run - stargate units slow/lift you up => you can't run - blink stalkers chase you => you can't run This plus giving protoss free detection (even if it's soft it still nullifies banshee/dt openings against toss) and a defensive ability like purify makes it really difficult to attack toss early on. Any matchup including toss seems to look more and more like a 10 minute no rush game. The epitome of cool pro play imo is a lot of action, multitasking, back and forth battles etc. i;'m afraid the protoss set up punishes attacking them too much.
For now hellbat without transform upgrade seems a bit strong too. I think a lot of hellbat/tank +1 pushes will roll over zergs, off some sort of hellion/widow mine opening you can do it quite quickly and it can come at such a timing that it's really hard to stop imo.
It's time for Blizzard to work on Terran. It's nice to see Protoss / Zerg changed, but Terran needs something... At the moment, Photon overcharge secures toss against all early push, Ms Core now denies early mines rush, and late game is the same for Terran (MMM / Viking / Ghost) except that... Protoss has so many new options to play. And against Zerg, Terran doesn't have any new compo, but has to deal with swarm host, viper, ultra burrow charge...
I love to play on this beta, but atm, terran compositions are exactly the same (+ mines) than on WoL, so... it's time for Blizzard to work on mid / late game terran !
woah, if you add oracle+msc in with an immortal bust... its gg. lol. you wont have stim, bunkers will be ripped to shreds vs that pulsar beam+ immortals... I truly dont see that staying in the game like that for long. Either the damage will be nerfed, the amount of mana will be raised, or it will just be taken out of the game.
On October 27 2012 06:03 Noocta wrote: I'm a little bit worried than Time Warp + any kind of aoe damage will make it impossible to play Boi against protoss. :/
How do you dodge storm if your whole deathball is slowed from 9 range away ? Vikings can't even prevent that :O
Vikings have 9 range, I believe and a small number of them will be able to insta murder any oracle that comes into that range. As long as you don’t keep them clumped, in a ball over your army, I think they can zone out the oracle.
Anyways, I would rather have the ability be to powerful in beta, than weak and useless.
Yeah, viking have 9 range. Meaning the Oracle run on you, and cast the spell before the viking's missile destroy it.
I know iit's costly but that doesn't mean it's impossible to make. And I know it's a positioning spell. But it's one like Forcefield or Fungal : once you're catch in it, you're dead if any army is near.
I disagree, I think it will be more difficult to spread after being hit by it. But not impossible and not instant death. This is very much so the kind of spell Fungal should be. Units slowed by 50% just means it's harder to micro. Will be interesting to see what pro players can do to dodge within a time warp. Vikings should be able to counter them, just lead with them by 1 or 2 range, missiles snipe oracle(really fragile unit will pretty much insta die against a good number of vikings)and deny the time warp from hitting your army.
It's a beta, at least them them try it out before condemning it as op or useless etc.
With these new changes I am really.... Really excited for not only this patch but t osee if blizzard can keep moving in this direction!
First thoughts: What's the point of the structure damage ability? so that people don't build their structures on the edges of their base, lol? the slow spell with protoss' already hilarious aoe will just demolish terran even harder, but might be cool vs zerg
Spines making a full wall removes the only possibility terran has of winning tvz (early hellion bust), but will most likely improve zvz a lot. Hope they buffed viper and ultra so people test them more in beta, not because they think zerg is having any trouble.
Note that I understand this is beta and they should be trying out a lot of different new stuff, it's just frightening to see what's getting all the attention and buffs and what's being ignored.
When I read the changes I assumed the idea behind Time Warp was to slow down workers from mining. A replacement for the Entomb harassment. Guess I was wrong. Doesn't stop it being used that way.
How is a spell that makes it even harder to fight a protoss deathball (by slowing the opposing deathball and making it more vulnerable to the protoss deathball's AOE damage) supposed to encourage less deathball play? If anything Protoss will have even more incentive to use a deathball since the other side will have even less ability to fight it straight up.
i would be fine with the tempest change if the hitpoints on the tempest was reduced. the amooount of hitpoints you get in the air for the cost is just insane and i feel it is to strong considering you need to have flying units to deal with them effectively.
On October 27 2012 06:26 LgNKami wrote: woah, if you add oracle+msc in with an immortal bust... its gg. lol. you wont have stim, bunkers will be ripped to shreds vs that pulsar beam+ immortals... I truly dont see that staying in the game like that for long. Either the damage will be nerfed, the amount of mana will be raised, or it will just be taken out of the game.
If you have invested in enough oracles+ Immortals to bust before stim hits, you are going to have like 0 gateway support units and sure you might kill the bunker... but then what?
I'll say it again... It's a BETA, at least test it before crying op or this needs nerfing. They haven't even released the patch yet, you cannot possibly if that will work.
I like the changes. However, I would also like it if any unit caught in the Time Warp field, if given the /dance command, proceeds to jump the left, then step to the right, prior to bringing its knees in tight and then doing a pelvic thrust.
On October 27 2012 06:29 Melliflue wrote: When I read the changes I assumed the idea behind Time Warp was to slow down workers from mining. A replacement for the Entomb harassment. Guess I was wrong. Doesn't stop it being used that way.
I was thinking more of using it to help with killing of buildings. 2-3 oracles, you time warp the army so it can't get back in time while the other oracles snipe key tech structures etc,
On October 27 2012 06:26 LgNKami wrote: woah, if you add oracle+msc in with an immortal bust... its gg. lol. you wont have stim, bunkers will be ripped to shreds vs that pulsar beam+ immortals... I truly dont see that staying in the game like that for long. Either the damage will be nerfed, the amount of mana will be raised, or it will just be taken out of the game.
If you have invested in enough oracles+ Immortals to bust before stim hits, you are going to have like 0 gateway support units and sure you might kill the bunker... but then what?
I'll say it again... It's a BETA, at least test it before crying op or this needs nerfing. They haven't even released the patch yet, you cannot possibly if that will work.
Besides a 5 range spell on a unit with same hp as a stalker is going head first to kill a bunker sure :/
On October 27 2012 06:31 felisconcolori wrote: I like the changes. However, I would also like it if any unit caught in the Time Warp field, if given the /dance command, proceeds to jump the left, then step to the right, prior to bringing its knees in tight and then doing a pelvic thrust.
Just played my first HotS game, trying the MSC oracle and tempest at the same time then dying to spidermines at my expansions because I did not build a robotics bay lol.
On October 27 2012 06:26 LgNKami wrote: woah, if you add oracle+msc in with an immortal bust... its gg. lol. you wont have stim, bunkers will be ripped to shreds vs that pulsar beam+ immortals... I truly dont see that staying in the game like that for long. Either the damage will be nerfed, the amount of mana will be raised, or it will just be taken out of the game.
If you have invested in enough oracles+ Immortals to bust before stim hits, you are going to have like 0 gateway support units and sure you might kill the bunker... but then what?
I'll say it again... It's a BETA, at least test it before crying op or this needs nerfing. They haven't even released the patch yet, you cannot possibly if that will work.
Besides a 5 range spell on a unit with same hp as a stalker is going head first to kill a bunker sure :/
???????? I didn't say anything about its spell or hp etc.?????? Merely pointing out to the guy complaining about immortal OC busts that toss would have nothing to support them if they want to hit before stim finishes??????
On October 27 2012 06:26 LgNKami wrote: woah, if you add oracle+msc in with an immortal bust... its gg. lol. you wont have stim, bunkers will be ripped to shreds vs that pulsar beam+ immortals... I truly dont see that staying in the game like that for long. Either the damage will be nerfed, the amount of mana will be raised, or it will just be taken out of the game.
Where would a protoss get all that gas before a terrans get stim? You can get both Stargate and a Robo on the cheap on HotS?
Anything's better than entomb, but I fear time warp is going to ruin the game even more, who the hell wants to get agressive versus a protoss now (guess I'll have to wait and see wether time warp will be as strong as I'm imagining now)
On October 27 2012 06:26 LgNKami wrote: woah, if you add oracle+msc in with an immortal bust... its gg. lol. you wont have stim, bunkers will be ripped to shreds vs that pulsar beam+ immortals... I truly dont see that staying in the game like that for long. Either the damage will be nerfed, the amount of mana will be raised, or it will just be taken out of the game.
If you have invested in enough oracles+ Immortals to bust before stim hits, you are going to have like 0 gateway support units and sure you might kill the bunker... but then what?
I'll say it again... It's a BETA, at least test it before crying op or this needs nerfing. They haven't even released the patch yet, you cannot possibly if that will work.
Besides a 5 range spell on a unit with same hp as a stalker is going head first to kill a bunker sure :/
???????? I didn't say anything about its spell or hp etc.?????? Merely pointing out to the guy complaining about immortal OC busts that toss would have nothing to support them if they want to hit before stim finishes??????
The hell is your problem? I was agreeing with you and pointing another fact why busting a bunker with oracle might not be the best idea, geez.
On October 27 2012 06:34 Freeborn wrote: Just played my first HotS game, trying the MSC oracle and tempest at the same time then dying to spidermines at my expansions because I did not build a robotics bay lol.
Then the servers went down )
I probably could have purified my nexi...
Well done sir, that sounds like a great beta game. Continue your efforts and attempting fun, dumb builds for those of us that can't.
On October 27 2012 06:31 DurandaL917 wrote: The patch notes give the impression that Protoss remains the most unsettled while the other races are simply being tweaked.
Not even gonna try and discuss balance but I am sad to see entombed cut as it was a truly original idea
Agreed with protoss being the most up in the air/weak race. Disagree with entombed even being emotely an original idea. If you played protoss in bw, then you have messed around with using statis on another person's workers. Guess what the oracle also had before being scraped? Cloak, something the arbiter also had. These guys need to give some of their wages to the people that actually came up with the ideas in BW. The only problem is, the arbiter was an amazing unit that could do a lot... the oracle simply could stasis workers. Face palm doesn't do it justice.
On October 27 2012 06:33 a176 wrote: im a bit worried about having a mobile 14 range detector. did blizzard forget about swarm hosts?
Need 14 range detector to even deal with swarm hosts really. Any half decent zerg I've played against so far as used corrupters/spores/overseers to snipe any observer well before I can get close enough to even detect swarm hosts. We need some way of being able to detect them(Aside from the horribly inefficient way I've been doing it, dropping extra 2 robos and spamming the fuck out of observers 24/7).
On October 27 2012 06:26 LgNKami wrote: woah, if you add oracle+msc in with an immortal bust... its gg. lol. you wont have stim, bunkers will be ripped to shreds vs that pulsar beam+ immortals... I truly dont see that staying in the game like that for long. Either the damage will be nerfed, the amount of mana will be raised, or it will just be taken out of the game.
If you have invested in enough oracles+ Immortals to bust before stim hits, you are going to have like 0 gateway support units and sure you might kill the bunker... but then what?
I'll say it again... It's a BETA, at least test it before crying op or this needs nerfing. They haven't even released the patch yet, you cannot possibly if that will work.
Besides a 5 range spell on a unit with same hp as a stalker is going head first to kill a bunker sure :/
???????? I didn't say anything about its spell or hp etc.?????? Merely pointing out to the guy complaining about immortal OC busts that toss would have nothing to support them if they want to hit before stim finishes??????
The hell is your problem? I was agreeing with you and pointing another fact why busting a bunker with oracle might not be the best idea, geez.
I wasn't trying to be an ass.. I was just genuinely confused at what you were trying to say... I apologize...
Worst changes imo: Tempests buffed? More? Really? I know people are not used to seeing these much yet, but in lategame both Zerg and Terran really do not have a counter to this + deathball (Terran mech that is). Buffing it even further seems like a terrible idea to me.
Blinding cloud even more powerful? It was insane already. Guess they want to test an even more extreme version.
Best change: Spine crawler change. Holy shit, I may consider taking the time to learn Zerg now haha. ZvZ all-in and coin flip builds will hopefully go away with this change, well not go away completely but be less easy to do and provide some semblance of defender's advantage. I'd think Zerg players would be ridiculously happy with this change.
Well, maybe not the Zergs that love to do coin flippy ling/bane all-ins ZvZ will hate the change :D
Overall opinions: Protoss: Get stuff to make their deathball even stronger, as well as stronger air units. Zerg: Blinding cloud even more powerful now @_@ why exactly? I suppose they want to test it on the extreme? Terran: GL, Have fun building vikings as your only realistic AA option and then losing the game because you were forced to build those vikings and land them all -> in which they all die ez -_-
On October 27 2012 06:33 a176 wrote: im a bit worried about having a mobile 14 range detector. did blizzard forget about swarm hosts?
Need 14 range detector to even deal with swarm hosts really. Any half decent zerg I've played against so far as used corrupters/spores/overseers to snipe any observer well before I can get close enough to even detect swarm hosts. We need some way of being able to detect them(Aside from the horribly inefficient way I've been doing it, dropping extra 2 robos and spamming the fuck out of observers 24/7).
More detection for everyone, including terran. Only then can cloaked units be powerful and awesome, rather than lame and used for all-ins. We must be liberated from our chains of limited detection and go back to the days of BW, when all overlords had detection. ALL OF THEM.
On October 27 2012 06:38 avilo wrote: Welcome to protossville. Haha @_@
Worst changes imo: Tempests buffed? More? Really? I know people are not used to seeing these much yet, but in lategame both Zerg and Terran really do not have a counter to this + deathball (Terran mech that is). Buffing it even further seems like a terrible idea to me.
Blinding cloud even more powerful? It was insane already. Guess they want to test an even more extreme version.
Best change: Spine crawler change. Holy shit, I may consider taking the time to learn Zerg now haha. ZvZ all-in and coin flip builds will hopefully go away with this change, well not go away completely but be less easy to do and provide some semblance of defender's advantage. I'd think Zerg players would be ridiculously happy with this change.
Well, maybe not the Zergs that love to do coin flippy ling/bane all-ins ZvZ will hate the change :D
Overall opinions: Protoss: Get stuff to make their deathball even stronger, as well as stronger air units. Zerg: Blinding cloud even more powerful now @_@ why exactly? I suppose they want to test it on the extreme? Terran: GL, Have fun building vikings as your only realistic AA option and then losing the game because you were forced to build those vikings and land them all -> in which they all die ez -_-
You wanted them to buff other units and not neft the terran ones. This is what happens. They give everyone awesome stuff and then ton it down to just slightly above reasonable levels.
Time warp sounds really cool. Mostly its good for stopping enemies from escaping though. And to keep them stuck below a psistorm or in collossi range. Lets see how it works with chargelots vs bio units
On October 27 2012 06:33 a176 wrote: im a bit worried about having a mobile 14 range detector. did blizzard forget about swarm hosts?
I'm worried too, because with this change I don't know how it will be possible to open up mech anymore vs Protoss. You previously could make a few mines and there was a nice balance of protoss needing an observer and microing, the Terran drawback being you had to stay defensive.
Detection on mothership core probably just killed mech all by itself now that i think about it
Wasn't time warp supposed to be a way to slow down enemy units so that Zealots could deal with them?
But the implemented spell will slow down your zealots too, since it affects all ground units... seems like it makes it less useful for early game defense
On October 27 2012 06:26 LgNKami wrote: woah, if you add oracle+msc in with an immortal bust... its gg. lol. you wont have stim, bunkers will be ripped to shreds vs that pulsar beam+ immortals... I truly dont see that staying in the game like that for long. Either the damage will be nerfed, the amount of mana will be raised, or it will just be taken out of the game.
oracle+msc is 400 gas, don't really see that being added with an immortal bust without giving terran a lot more time to prepare.
On October 27 2012 06:38 avilo wrote: Welcome to protossville. Haha @_@
Worst changes imo: Tempests buffed? More? Really? I know people are not used to seeing these much yet, but in lategame both Zerg and Terran really do not have a counter to this + deathball (Terran mech that is). Buffing it even further seems like a terrible idea to me.
Blinding cloud even more powerful? It was insane already. Guess they want to test an even more extreme version.
Best change: Spine crawler change. Holy shit, I may consider taking the time to learn Zerg now haha. ZvZ all-in and coin flip builds will hopefully go away with this change, well not go away completely but be less easy to do and provide some semblance of defender's advantage. I'd think Zerg players would be ridiculously happy with this change.
Well, maybe not the Zergs that love to do coin flippy ling/bane all-ins ZvZ will hate the change :D
Overall opinions: Protoss: Get stuff to make their deathball even stronger, as well as stronger air units. Zerg: Blinding cloud even more powerful now @_@ why exactly? I suppose they want to test it on the extreme? Terran: GL, Have fun building vikings as your only realistic AA option and then losing the game because you were forced to build those vikings and land them all -> in which they all die ez -_-
You wanted them to buff other units and not neft the terran ones. This is what happens. They give everyone awesome stuff and then ton it down to just slightly above reasonable levels.
Oh no, I still think it's awesome they are taking that route with units and making them powerful. They buffed the mine. They buffed the tempest previous patch as well, and they also buffed the blinding cloud previous patch.
Now they've double buffed blinding cloud, and double/triple buffed the tempest, and reverted previous nerfs to the battle hellion (it still has the bio flag on it which is a nerf). Guess they are taking it to the EXTREME yo
At first I thought that Time Warp is going to be useless, but then I realized that it can be really useful in PvT. Usually it was pointless to chase fleeing bio because it was very hard to catch stimmed units. Even if you managed to catch them, you still couldn't kill them because stalkers are just awful vs bio. I have question about Tempest: Do people use it in late game pvp or the match up is still suffering from the war of the worlds syndrome?
On October 27 2012 06:38 avilo wrote: Welcome to protossville. Haha @_@
Worst changes imo: Tempests buffed? More? Really? I know people are not used to seeing these much yet, but in lategame both Zerg and Terran really do not have a counter to this + deathball (Terran mech that is). Buffing it even further seems like a terrible idea to me.
Blinding cloud even more powerful? It was insane already. Guess they want to test an even more extreme version.
Best change: Spine crawler change. Holy shit, I may consider taking the time to learn Zerg now haha. ZvZ all-in and coin flip builds will hopefully go away with this change, well not go away completely but be less easy to do and provide some semblance of defender's advantage. I'd think Zerg players would be ridiculously happy with this change.
Well, maybe not the Zergs that love to do coin flippy ling/bane all-ins ZvZ will hate the change :D
Overall opinions: Protoss: Get stuff to make their deathball even stronger, as well as stronger air units. Zerg: Blinding cloud even more powerful now @_@ why exactly? I suppose they want to test it on the extreme? Terran: GL, Have fun building vikings as your only realistic AA option and then losing the game because you were forced to build those vikings and land them all -> in which they all die ez -_-
You wanted them to buff other units and not neft the terran ones. This is what happens. They give everyone awesome stuff and then ton it down to just slightly above reasonable levels.
Oh no, I still think it's awesome they are taking that route with units and making them powerful. They buffed the mine. They buffed the tempest previous patch as well, and they also buffed the blinding cloud previous patch.
Now they've double buffed blinding cloud, and double/triple buffed the tempest, and reverted previous nerfs to the battle hellion (it still has the bio flag on it which is a nerf). Guess they are taking it to the EXTREME yo
I'm not a terran player so I obviously don't understand the units aswell... but how is the hellion having the bio tag a nerf? If you drop them with a medivac then they can be healed etc. I guess you take more dmg from archons... but it's not like you'd be using hellions to fight archons before either....
On October 27 2012 06:38 avilo wrote: Welcome to protossville. Haha @_@
Worst changes imo: Tempests buffed? More? Really? I know people are not used to seeing these much yet, but in lategame both Zerg and Terran really do not have a counter to this + deathball (Terran mech that is). Buffing it even further seems like a terrible idea to me.
Blinding cloud even more powerful? It was insane already. Guess they want to test an even more extreme version.
Best change: Spine crawler change. Holy shit, I may consider taking the time to learn Zerg now haha. ZvZ all-in and coin flip builds will hopefully go away with this change, well not go away completely but be less easy to do and provide some semblance of defender's advantage. I'd think Zerg players would be ridiculously happy with this change.
Well, maybe not the Zergs that love to do coin flippy ling/bane all-ins ZvZ will hate the change :D
Overall opinions: Protoss: Get stuff to make their deathball even stronger, as well as stronger air units. Zerg: Blinding cloud even more powerful now @_@ why exactly? I suppose they want to test it on the extreme? Terran: GL, Have fun building vikings as your only realistic AA option and then losing the game because you were forced to build those vikings and land them all -> in which they all die ez -_-
You wanted them to buff other units and not neft the terran ones. This is what happens. They give everyone awesome stuff and then ton it down to just slightly above reasonable levels.
Oh no, I still think it's awesome they are taking that route with units and making them powerful. They buffed the mine. They buffed the tempest previous patch as well, and they also buffed the blinding cloud previous patch.
Now they've double buffed blinding cloud, and double/triple buffed the tempest, and reverted previous nerfs to the battle hellion (it still has the bio flag on it which is a nerf). Guess they are taking it to the EXTREME yo
They keep buffing because people keep not using the units/abilities. Until people actually start using the new stuff regularly, they won't have any good data to work with. So, bring on the EXTREME!!!
On October 27 2012 06:03 Noocta wrote: I'm a little bit worried than Time Warp + any kind of aoe damage will make it impossible to play Boi against protoss. :/
How do you dodge storm if your whole deathball is slowed from 9 range away ? Vikings can't even prevent that :O
Vikings have 9 range, I believe and a small number of them will be able to insta murder any oracle that comes into that range. As long as you don’t keep them clumped, in a ball over your army, I think they can zone out the oracle.
Anyways, I would rather have the ability be to powerful in beta, than weak and useless.
Yeah, viking have 9 range. Meaning the Oracle run on you, and cast the spell before the viking's missile destroy it.
I know iit's costly but that doesn't mean it's impossible to make. And I know it's a positioning spell. But it's one like Forcefield or Fungal : once you're catch in it, you're dead if any army is near.
I disagree, I think it will be more difficult to spread after being hit by it. But not impossible and not instant death. This is very much so the kind of spell Fungal should be. Units slowed by 50% just means it's harder to micro. Will be interesting to see what pro players can do to dodge within a time warp. Vikings should be able to counter them, just lead with them by 1 or 2 range, missiles snipe oracle(really fragile unit will pretty much insta die against a good number of vikings)and deny the time warp from hitting your army.
It's a beta, at least them them try it out before condemning it as op or useless etc.
With these new changes I am really.... Really excited for not only this patch but t osee if blizzard can keep moving in this direction!
I mean okay it's more micro, which is good. But is TvP really eh match up which need to be more micro heavy ? :/
On October 27 2012 06:48 Sent. wrote: At first I thought that Time Warp is going to be useless, but then I realized that it can be really useful in PvT. Usually it was pointless to chase fleeing bio because it was very hard to catch stimmed units. Even if you managed to catch them, you still couldn't kill them because stalkers are just awful vs bio. I have question about Tempest: Do people use it in late game pvp or the match up is still suffering from the war of the worlds syndrome?
From PvP's I've played into lategame...lategame is similar but there's a certain point where after the mass archon/collosus stage you start accumulating tempests as well with psi storm. I don't know if early/mid-game PvP is more stable with the mothership core, but the mothership core seems to let you get an expansion more often than wings of liberty at least.
Collosus you'll still make a hell of a lot of but now there's an element of "when should i get some tempests." Theoretically it might also be possible to go pure stargate + gateway units PvP because tempests counter collosus pretty hard. If your opponent has like 10 collosus and you started to mass up tempests it's pretty funny :D
I don't really get it. You can buff the oracle all you want but you still have to go robo to not die in pvz.. And eventually pvp. It's not a valid tech path when roach maxes and colossi happen.
I really like this change. Time warp kinda forces bio terrans to multitask and do loads of drops since the army is to dangerous to fight head on. Since it only slows units down, the dps of a stimmed medivac is still the same. It just requires more time pick up and leave safely. When you commit to a drop (2.3 ships), the difference isn't really that big since your usually snipping bieldings etc... It also doesn't effect mech play at all, which encourages it as well.
vikings in late game will help against head on engagements, but I do see the problem with storms and time warp. You gotta remember though that its a gas expensive unit and the spell cost can easily ajust it to balance it out, as well as many other parameters. It could be a huge cd you blew wasting all your mana, having it take a long time to recharge. There are many things they can change about this, but i really like the main idea around it.
On October 27 2012 06:33 a176 wrote: im a bit worried about having a mobile 14 range detector. did blizzard forget about swarm hosts?
I'm worried too, because with this change I don't know how it will be possible to open up mech anymore vs Protoss. You previously could make a few mines and there was a nice balance of protoss needing an observer and microing, the Terran drawback being you had to stay defensive.
Detection on mothership core probably just killed mech all by itself now that i think about it
there is an end to the detection though, considering it requires energy but it definitely makes the banshee a useless unit (just like the dark templar) in the early game
I like all the changes really, but overall I am a bit worried about Terran. Not because it will be up or anything like that, but because it feels like there will be very little difference between WOL and HOTS Terran compared to the other races.
I think Blizzard is forgetting that there is a 3rd race in this game. It's getting more and more difficult to even want to play the beta if Terran is going to continue to get the shaft at almost every turn.
On October 27 2012 06:38 avilo wrote: Welcome to protossville. Haha @_@
Worst changes imo: Tempests buffed? More? Really? I know people are not used to seeing these much yet, but in lategame both Zerg and Terran really do not have a counter to this + deathball (Terran mech that is). Buffing it even further seems like a terrible idea to me.
Blinding cloud even more powerful? It was insane already. Guess they want to test an even more extreme version.
Best change: Spine crawler change. Holy shit, I may consider taking the time to learn Zerg now haha. ZvZ all-in and coin flip builds will hopefully go away with this change, well not go away completely but be less easy to do and provide some semblance of defender's advantage. I'd think Zerg players would be ridiculously happy with this change.
Well, maybe not the Zergs that love to do coin flippy ling/bane all-ins ZvZ will hate the change :D
Overall opinions: Protoss: Get stuff to make their deathball even stronger, as well as stronger air units. Zerg: Blinding cloud even more powerful now @_@ why exactly? I suppose they want to test it on the extreme? Terran: GL, Have fun building vikings as your only realistic AA option and then losing the game because you were forced to build those vikings and land them all -> in which they all die ez -_-
You wanted them to buff other units and not neft the terran ones. This is what happens. They give everyone awesome stuff and then ton it down to just slightly above reasonable levels.
Oh no, I still think it's awesome they are taking that route with units and making them powerful. They buffed the mine. They buffed the tempest previous patch as well, and they also buffed the blinding cloud previous patch.
Now they've double buffed blinding cloud, and double/triple buffed the tempest, and reverted previous nerfs to the battle hellion (it still has the bio flag on it which is a nerf). Guess they are taking it to the EXTREME yo
I'm not a terran player so I obviously don't understand the units aswell... but how is the hellion having the bio tag a nerf? If you drop them with a medivac then they can be healed etc. I guess you take more dmg from archons... but it's not like you'd be using hellions to fight archons before either....
Helions were used as buffer before which with Bio Helions doesn't work against Archons. After that change they'rve basically become useless with Mech in TvP because nobody builds more then at best a 1-2 Medivacs for drop since it doesn't support your main army. If I Mech I build mines as buffer and not a single Helion. They just don't have a purpose in TvP in your army anymore.
On October 27 2012 06:18 GungraveHero2 wrote: guess they realy want all terran to stop this game ?
ho you removed a upgrade who was kinda fast to get anyway ? amazing , if you wanted a real buff you remove the armory requirement .
they dont even buff the race.... im a 1500 master terran and honestly -50 % speed reduction = will be realy huge
guess that time im stoping this game , blizzard clearly dont care about terran , and hots start to look a even harder game for terran .... lol .
Gotta love comments like these. Do you really think they are sitting around at Blizzard HQ going: "*snikkers* Lets fuck over the Terran race, mmyees will be fun watching them suffer muhahahahah".
+ It´s beta, and a long one at that.
im sure all the beta team internal tester they got are like gold silver level , so they think terran are fine , or they clearly do what you say , and enjoy it . but honestly im thinking blizzard clearly dont know how to balance a game , at my level .
because at my level , terran are broken
they need something in t v p vs protoss deathball badly , a unit , something , or make mech work good
they need something in t v z vs the curently ultra broken broodlord infestor coruptor combo , they are curently not even one unit in the game for counter that , good zerg now dodge the seeker misile ( with the range of 4 , when this work ) and they just laught , again why ? they nerfed ghost to much , how about you buff ghost ? why they dont do that ?
they give protoss a spell who reduce the speed of bioball of 50 % ( with a huge radium ) with force field , that , storm , zealot leg , collosus , this sure will help terran better , because curently most of the time the protoss win when the game go over 15 min unless the terran got 2x the skill of the protoss .
terran race curently = gimmick race for try to win under 12 min , then that game over
they added free halucination a couple of patch ago , do you know how that hard to hold 5 gateway stalker blink in t v p curently outside hots ? before they needed a obs for do it , now not anymore
i can go on , how terran are broken , but will stop here and honestly i dont realy care anymore and im sure blizzard clearly dont care anymore if terran are balanced until diamond , mid master , but broken after , they got some CRAZY good korean terran for make the race look just fine , ( btw they are curently no good foreigner terran who win anything since forever )
im realy thinking about stoping this game for good and just reading all these patch note when they buff zerg and protoss even more confirm that im right .
On October 27 2012 06:38 avilo wrote: Welcome to protossville. Haha @_@
Worst changes imo: Tempests buffed? More? Really? I know people are not used to seeing these much yet, but in lategame both Zerg and Terran really do not have a counter to this + deathball (Terran mech that is). Buffing it even further seems like a terrible idea to me.
Blinding cloud even more powerful? It was insane already. Guess they want to test an even more extreme version.
Best change: Spine crawler change. Holy shit, I may consider taking the time to learn Zerg now haha. ZvZ all-in and coin flip builds will hopefully go away with this change, well not go away completely but be less easy to do and provide some semblance of defender's advantage. I'd think Zerg players would be ridiculously happy with this change.
Well, maybe not the Zergs that love to do coin flippy ling/bane all-ins ZvZ will hate the change :D
Overall opinions: Protoss: Get stuff to make their deathball even stronger, as well as stronger air units. Zerg: Blinding cloud even more powerful now @_@ why exactly? I suppose they want to test it on the extreme? Terran: GL, Have fun building vikings as your only realistic AA option and then losing the game because you were forced to build those vikings and land them all -> in which they all die ez -_-
You wanted them to buff other units and not neft the terran ones. This is what happens. They give everyone awesome stuff and then ton it down to just slightly above reasonable levels.
Oh no, I still think it's awesome they are taking that route with units and making them powerful. They buffed the mine. They buffed the tempest previous patch as well, and they also buffed the blinding cloud previous patch.
Now they've double buffed blinding cloud, and double/triple buffed the tempest, and reverted previous nerfs to the battle hellion (it still has the bio flag on it which is a nerf). Guess they are taking it to the EXTREME yo
I'm not a terran player so I obviously don't understand the units aswell... but how is the hellion having the bio tag a nerf? If you drop them with a medivac then they can be healed etc. I guess you take more dmg from archons... but it's not like you'd be using hellions to fight archons before either....
It's a nerf for exactly that reason, it hurts mech tvp because the way Protoss plays vs mech on the ground is mass chargelot/immortal/archons, and when you have 7-10 archons the archons do extra damage almost equivalent to having an imaginary zealot involved in the battle.
So every time an archon attacks a battle hellion, it's two fold - it's like there's another zealot worth of damage there, but also there is no surface area taken up by that "imaginary zealot." So it's like 7-10 archons vs battle hellions are adding another 7-10 zealots worth of DPS onto battle hellions without any extra surface area required.
It's a huge nerf to tvp mech, which is insane.
On top of that, it adds nothing to TvP bio play, because you can't upgrade mech/air at the same time so if you do some wonky and inefficient bio + battle hellion strat you have no air upgrades because you have to upgrade your battle hellions with bio, or you have 0/0 battle hellions with bio vs 3/3/3 protoss ground...yeaaaaahh...
TvZ bio flag adds nothing to the battle hellion because if you're going mech you don't build medivacs for the purpose of healing units. So it does nothing here. And once again, if you're going bio TvZ...at best you'd have 3/0 or 0/3 battle hellions that you can't micro vs banelings with your bio because they're slow.
So...TvZ bio flag adds nothing. TvP it nerfs mech. TvT is the same as TvZ/TvP mech - you don't build medivacs with mech, you build vikings/ravens, so it adds nothing to TvT mech either.
Bio flag battle hellions are bad for a long list of reasons, the core one being it nerfs TvP mech and adds nothing else to any other match-up. This is obvious yet it's still in the game for some reason.
Damn the Spine Forrest is going to be even more difficult to deal with, Liking the other changes so far Not sure how cool the oracle ability is yet, I don't think will be able to snipe buildings maybe with 2-4 but it might be a little to strong vs zerg just rush in with 4 oracles burn down infestation pit/spawning pool whatever cause that is 100 damage every second.
maybe we will be seeing more hell bats they are really damn good vs zealots scary good.
The spinecrawler change is kind of lame, but come to think of it, that was the way things were in BW right? Minus the fact that colonies also spread creep, which could be the difference here. All I'm saying is in general I don't want to see zerg walls, they don't really make sense given the flavor of the race. Yay... less hellion harassment I guess... Suppose it encourages reaper use more.
I pretty sure they are just doing whatever random shit they can think of with the Oracle right now. No surprise, Zerg seems like the most promising race in HoTS.
On October 27 2012 07:06 GARcher wrote: I pretty sure they are just doing whatever random shit they can think of with the Oracle right now. No surprise, Zerg seems like the most promising race in HoTS.
Well it is their expansion...
I find the Terran changes to the Widow Mine promising but possibly overpowered.
On October 27 2012 06:38 avilo wrote: Welcome to protossville. Haha @_@
Worst changes imo: Tempests buffed? More? Really? I know people are not used to seeing these much yet, but in lategame both Zerg and Terran really do not have a counter to this + deathball (Terran mech that is). Buffing it even further seems like a terrible idea to me.
Blinding cloud even more powerful? It was insane already. Guess they want to test an even more extreme version.
Best change: Spine crawler change. Holy shit, I may consider taking the time to learn Zerg now haha. ZvZ all-in and coin flip builds will hopefully go away with this change, well not go away completely but be less easy to do and provide some semblance of defender's advantage. I'd think Zerg players would be ridiculously happy with this change.
Well, maybe not the Zergs that love to do coin flippy ling/bane all-ins ZvZ will hate the change :D
Overall opinions: Protoss: Get stuff to make their deathball even stronger, as well as stronger air units. Zerg: Blinding cloud even more powerful now @_@ why exactly? I suppose they want to test it on the extreme? Terran: GL, Have fun building vikings as your only realistic AA option and then losing the game because you were forced to build those vikings and land them all -> in which they all die ez -_-
You wanted them to buff other units and not neft the terran ones. This is what happens. They give everyone awesome stuff and then ton it down to just slightly above reasonable levels.
Oh no, I still think it's awesome they are taking that route with units and making them powerful. They buffed the mine. They buffed the tempest previous patch as well, and they also buffed the blinding cloud previous patch.
Now they've double buffed blinding cloud, and double/triple buffed the tempest, and reverted previous nerfs to the battle hellion (it still has the bio flag on it which is a nerf). Guess they are taking it to the EXTREME yo
I'm not a terran player so I obviously don't understand the units aswell... but how is the hellion having the bio tag a nerf? If you drop them with a medivac then they can be healed etc. I guess you take more dmg from archons... but it's not like you'd be using hellions to fight archons before either....
It's a nerf for exactly that reason, it hurts mech tvp because the way Protoss plays vs mech on the ground is mass chargelot/immortal/archons, and when you have 7-10 archons the archons do extra damage almost equivalent to having an imaginary zealot involved in the battle.
So every time an archon attacks a battle hellion, it's two fold - it's like there's another zealot worth of damage there, but also there is no surface area taken up by that "imaginary zealot." So it's like 7-10 archons vs battle hellions are adding another 7-10 zealots worth of DPS onto battle hellions without any extra surface area required.
It's a huge nerf to tvp mech, which is insane.
On top of that, it adds nothing to TvP bio play, because you can't upgrade mech/air at the same time so if you do some wonky and inefficient bio + battle hellion strat you have no air upgrades because you have to upgrade your battle hellions with bio, or you have 0/0 battle hellions with bio vs 3/3/3 protoss ground...yeaaaaahh...
TvZ bio flag adds nothing to the battle hellion because if you're going mech you don't build medivacs for the purpose of healing units. So it does nothing here. And once again, if you're going bio TvZ...at best you'd have 3/0 or 0/3 battle hellions that you can't micro vs banelings with your bio because they're slow.
So...TvZ bio flag adds nothing. TvP it nerfs mech. TvT is the same as TvZ/TvP mech - you don't build medivacs with mech, you build vikings/ravens, so it adds nothing to TvT mech either.
Bio flag battle hellions are bad for a long list of reasons, the core one being it nerfs TvP mech and adds nothing else to any other match-up. This is obvious yet it's still in the game for some reason.
Okay that makes a lot of sense then. I really wan't sure why it was considered a nerf. My brain just instantly though, "Drop harras with hellions seems like it could be very, very strong now" But I guess having 1 or two drops be better doesn't really help when your army gets roflstomped xD
The time warp spell (along with a lot more changes that would be necessary) sounds like a great starting point for creating the possibility to remove force field and replace it with other less frustrating things.
This unit has a new ability called Time Warp. The Oracle creates a temporal field that slows all ground units’ movement speed within a 3.5 radius by 50%. This ability costs 75 energy to cast This ability can be cast from 9 range.
So hm.. remember back when they announced HoTS, they said the oracle was made to not be integrated in the deathball.. well now they made it even stronger.
Not a bad patch at all, as in its better than before. Nice new UI and level system for the casuals but hmm.. The more we lose time every week with these patches, the less time we have to re-design the game to make it into a dynamic game that doesn't rely on maxed armies fighting each others.
I really hope that when they start balancing WoL units that they buff the tank. This patch is pretty good though, just sad to see Terran seeming more and more frustrating to play.
I like the range of the Oracle slow ability, however, the movement speed reduction need to be reduced, 50% in sc2 is way too much, half of that would already be really strong tbh
Time warp radius is way too big, but that will come down in some later patch and should be fine... but still scared of the potential of combination with collossi against zerg... fast hydras? maybe not.
Not sure I like the harass method they are going for with the oracle building dmg beam. Seems like it will be an all or nothing result for whether the harass does anything. Also way stronger vs zerg since regening is so much slower then shields or even just 1 scv of repair.
Everything else looks really good. Things appear to be heading in the right direction.
I cant follow HOTS beta anymore... its so much habilities that I dont know that have been removed and added... Im lost! Need someone to make a video of those
On October 27 2012 07:05 TheDougler wrote: The spinecrawler change is kind of lame, but come to think of it, that was the way things were in BW right? Minus the fact that colonies also spread creep, which could be the difference here. All I'm saying is in general I don't want to see zerg walls, they don't really make sense given the flavor of the race. Yay... less hellion harassment I guess... Suppose it encourages reaper use more.
After reading Avilo's post, I'm actually totally okay with the Spine change now. That's a huge change in early game ZvZ, and the metagame in other matchups can adjust to it, especially with the awesomeness that is HoTS reapers.
Pulsar Beam is a green heated Void Ray now. Two oracles can cast Pulsar Beam on one building at same time! For 50 energy of both Oracles I've killed 90% HP of Hatchery. Well, with that Pulsar Beam void ray can be removed now, because Oracle kills pylon faster, than Void Ray, and Oracle itself is faster and can slow down half of enemy units for just 150 vespene gas and 35 seconds build time!
With this tempest buff, blizzard seems have given up on making Mech viable in T v P. Oh well, HOTS TvP will be pretty much identical to WOL + timewarp.
On October 27 2012 07:22 link0 wrote: With this tempest buff, blizzard seems have given up on making Mech viable in T v P. Oh well, HOTS TvP will be pretty much identical to WOL + timewarp.
Yep. Timewarp + Storm = GG.
On October 27 2012 07:22 link0 wrote: With this tempest buff, blizzard seems have given up on making Mech viable in T v P. Oh well, HOTS TvP will be pretty much identical to WOL + timewarp.
Actually even right now for Terran it's pretty much the same as every match up. Bio in TvP is still better than pure mech and TvZ still doesn't have something that makes bio more appealing than mech.
Pulsar Beam seems like a great inclusion to the game. The removal of entomb is great too. However, time warp seems like another of those dreaded anti-micro abilities.
On October 27 2012 07:20 Existor wrote: Oracle is super-OP unit right now.
Pulsar Beam is a green heated Void Ray now. Two oracles can cast Pulsar Beam on one building at same time! For 50 energy of both Oracles I've killed 90% HP of Hatchery. Well, with that Pulsar Beam void ray can be removed now, because Oracle kills pylon faster, than Void Ray, and Oracle itself is faster and can slow down half of enemy units for just 150 vespene gas and 35 seconds build time!
Good point about the Void Ray...really curious what's going to become of it when they do eventually take a look at WoL units in the beta.
On October 27 2012 07:27 BrokenMirage wrote: Pulsar Beam seems like a great inclusion to the game. The removal of entomb is great too. However, time warp seems like another of those dreaded anti-micro abilities.
Pulsar Beam = heated Void Ray at double speed, that can atack only buildings
On October 27 2012 07:20 Existor wrote: Oracle is super-OP unit right now.
Pulsar Beam is a green heated Void Ray now. Two oracles can cast Pulsar Beam on one building at same time! For 50 energy of both Oracles I've killed 90% HP of Hatchery. Well, with that Pulsar Beam void ray can be removed now, because Oracle kills pylon faster, than Void Ray, and Oracle itself is faster and can slow down half of enemy units for just 150 vespene gas and 35 seconds build time!
Good point about the Void Ray...really curious what's going to become of it when they do eventually take a look at WoL units in the beta.
I'd like it to target 3 enemies at once and charge up.
On October 27 2012 07:27 BrokenMirage wrote: Pulsar Beam seems like a great inclusion to the game. The removal of entomb is great too. However, time warp seems like another of those dreaded anti-micro abilities.
Pulsar Beam = heated Void Ray at double speed, that can atack only buildings
That's all you need to snipe pylons and hatcheries.
Zergs are particularly screwed because all their shit comes out of the hatchery and they have single tech structures.
On October 27 2012 07:14 Naphal wrote: so hellions do lose their transform ability when the armory gets sniped? if so it is stupid imo <.<
Hmm, that's a good point. What happens when they're transformed and the armory is destroyed? I can't imagine that it would be the enemy's first priority to snipe an armory for that reason though, so it probably won't be a problem.
IMO it should just be a cheap 50/50 upgrade from the tech lab
On October 27 2012 07:31 HolydaKing wrote: oh god 50% movement and storm.
they could very well remove forcefield with this... slowing will make forcefields very strong as well >_>
i like the idea of a slow, but 50% and a that big radius?
It's probably OP for now, but IMO that's the way all changes should be at the beginning of the beta
On October 27 2012 07:22 link0 wrote: With this tempest buff, blizzard seems have given up on making Mech viable in T v P. Oh well, HOTS TvP will be pretty much identical to WOL + timewarp.
Oracle in a death ball means thats 200 gas on a unit that CANT attack units directly. Thats one less collosus.
AND they have yet to balance units. Old units could get significant buffs. we dont know. Saying tvp in HOTS will be the same as WOL is ignorant
Overall, like the changes, but am worried about the direction the oracle is going.
The original concept was for a more 'pacifist' unit that wouldn't create economies of scale/deathballs. Nor would it lead to cheesy rush attacks. It seemed Blizzard was toying with the idea of making it more of a thief unit but never really followed through in a serious manner, which is unfortunate as this would have been fun and the 'thief' is a staple of RPG's and would fit well into the SC2 universe.
Clearly...the time warp is an economy of scale ability, which means it will be a deathball addition. Hopefully this works out, but I suspect it won't
On October 27 2012 07:22 link0 wrote: With this tempest buff, blizzard seems have given up on making Mech viable in T v P. Oh well, HOTS TvP will be pretty much identical to WOL + timewarp.
Oracle in a death ball means thats 200 gas on a unit that CANT attack units directly. Thats one less collosus.
AND they have yet to balance units. Old units could get significant buffs. we dont know. Saying tvp in HOTS will be the same as WOL is ignorant
Don't need colossi when you are eventually going to have to go templar tech for Archons and upgrades. Storm + Timewarp combo is way better than colossi.
On October 27 2012 07:05 TheDougler wrote: The spinecrawler change is kind of lame, but come to think of it, that was the way things were in BW right? Minus the fact that colonies also spread creep, which could be the difference here. All I'm saying is in general I don't want to see zerg walls, they don't really make sense given the flavor of the race. Yay... less hellion harassment I guess... Suppose it encourages reaper use more.
In brood war various buildings left various amount of space free here and there and this information wasn't present "in game". Check this out: List of Unit and Building Sizes. There were many tricks around this thing like i.e. Vespene Geyser is bigger than Assimilator so that probe stuck behind buldings and geyser could warp assimilator, move and then cancel it.
I don't like the change. I liked the tricky bulding sizes in BW
On October 27 2012 07:27 BrokenMirage wrote: Pulsar Beam seems like a great inclusion to the game. The removal of entomb is great too. However, time warp seems like another of those dreaded anti-micro abilities.
Pulsar Beam = heated Void Ray at double speed, that can atack only buildings
That's all you need to snipe pylons and hatcheries.
Zergs are particularly screwed because all their shit comes out of the hatchery and they have single tech structures.
I don't get why its an issue for zergs? They'll always have queens around their hatcheries.. pulsar beam is only 5 range, and queen's AA is 9 range, with oracles low health its not like they can just sit there and tank damage.
On October 27 2012 07:34 eviltomahawk wrote: Just went in-game and found out that the Time Warp has a whopping 30 second duration in addition to it's relatively wide radius.
Two Time Warp bubbles covers a very large area of a mineral field.
And 6 Oracles with Pulsar Beam kills buildings REALLY fast.
Awesome! They really needed the duration to be long in order for it to be multipurpose.
I am upset that they nerfed the originally incarnation of the ability to affect your own units now though. Before you could cast it and it would only affect enemy ground units. Now it affects all ground units, which means that toss units still can't catch up to the enemy very well.
On October 27 2012 07:27 BrokenMirage wrote: Pulsar Beam seems like a great inclusion to the game. The removal of entomb is great too. However, time warp seems like another of those dreaded anti-micro abilities.
Pulsar Beam = heated Void Ray at double speed, that can atack only buildings
That's all you need to snipe pylons and hatcheries.
Zergs are particularly screwed because all their shit comes out of the hatchery and they have single tech structures.
I don't get why its an issue for zergs? They'll always have queens around their hatcheries.. pulsar beam is only 5 range, and queen's AA is 9 range, with oracles low health its not like they can just sit there and tank damage.
Oracle comes out before zergs can spread creep to thirds or get a queen there.
Wow...multiple oracles is pretty insane (servers back up) -- 3/4 in your base even for a few seconds can cause some hefty damage, though obviously they're very fragile. Also, time warp is a much bigger radius than I guess I expected, and lasts a LONG time. Did Protoss really need more AOE zoning / etc.? time warp + forcefields mean no protoss should ever engage in a bad exchange again.
If they don't remove forcefields I honestly don't see how bio remains viable. Throwing down a stargate and getting even 1-2 oracles for a couple time warps will mean completely demolishing with a normal colossus / storm ball. Even if the slight dip into stargate tech at a certain points equates to a somewhat all-in situation, with extremely simple micro you're basically guaranteed to win the engagement.
On October 27 2012 07:42 SarcasmMonster wrote: If they nerf Oracle's new beam, they should increase the energy cost rather than decreasing DPS. Keep it exciting.
I agree, the DPS is potentially fine if counterweighted by enough of an EPS cost. I'm also not sure a 30-second build time is a good idea.
I expect most new stuff to be slightly imba right now. I wouldn't worry about that, but whether or not it's a good idea. The new Oracle seems potentially good, but it's hard to tell. What do you guys with the beta think?
Just played a quick game. Hide my stargate and got up to 4 oracles really quickly... Sniped zergs third base but cost me 3 oracle of the 4 oracles(4th one in deep red.) If you time warp the ramp or path leading to the third it takes queens off creep hilariously long to get there to help support xD XD XD
It's a huge investment though(Cost me wayy more to build oracles then the cost of one hatch.) If it's scouted before the oracles are their and the zerg can put up a spore pretty much fucked....
On October 27 2012 07:55 Necro)Phagist( wrote: Just played a quick game. Hide my stargate and got up to 4 oracles really quickly... Sniped zergs third base but cost me 3 oracle of the 4 oracles(4th one in deep red.) If you time warp the ramp or path leading to the third it takes queens off creep hilariously long to get there to help support xD XD XD
Just forcefield. Then you have more energy on oracle. You're going to need sentries anyways.
On October 27 2012 07:55 Necro)Phagist( wrote: Just played a quick game. Hide my stargate and got up to 4 oracles really quickly... Sniped zergs third base but cost me 3 oracle of the 4 oracles(4th one in deep red.) If you time warp the ramp or path leading to the third it takes queens off creep hilariously long to get there to help support xD XD XD
Just forcefield. Then you have more energy on oracle. You're going to need sentries anyways.
Getting sentries all the way across the map without a warp in pylon takes entirely too long + potential for losing more +shit ton more gas. It could work though, but with 4 oracles plenty of energy to snipe the hatch(His third was actually his lair so it had more hp too) and time warp the path leading to the third. So I think it might be better to keep sentries at home ot stop zergling runbys etc.
On October 27 2012 07:59 Laurens wrote: Well as a terran this is just fucking depressing. I have to continue doing the exact same builds as in WoL except they are way less effective.
When will they finally do something for terran ???
WoL is the supposed "expansion" for Terran so I'm sorry, I think it's time to switch to Zerg.
If Blizzard doesn't like to add new Units to Terran at least change the bad/mediocre Terran units to be at least viable / don't take ages to be useful.
On October 27 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote: If Blizzard doesn't like to add new Units to Terran at least change the bad/mediocre Terran units to be at least viable / don't take ages to be useful.
ok, yeah oracles that's cool and all...what about widow mines?
i still have no fucking clue how to deal with them as zerg. it's to the point where i 100% stopped playing beta after being top 25 GM and loving it. i really really do not enjoy not being able to kill meching terrans. i must be really bad because i see nobody else complaining about this. maybe hots just isn't for me. -_-
On October 27 2012 08:06 gh0stsquall wrote: ok, yeah oracles that's cool and all...what about widow mines?
i still have no fucking clue how to deal with them as zerg. it's to the point where i 100% stopped playing beta after being top 25 GM and loving it. i really really do not enjoy not being able to kill meching terrans. i must be really bad because i see nobody else complaining about this. maybe hots just isn't for me. -_-
yeah it's just you, roach/swarm host/viper shits all over mech
On October 27 2012 08:02 Audemed wrote: Changed "Purify" to "Photon Overcharge"? Worst MSCore change thus far.
You get mobile detection before robo now. 2 port banshee pretty much gets shut down.
Any cloak openers is pretty much dead with Spore/M-Core/Widow Mine.
Please... in BW players opened with DT's against zerg when every damn overlord gave detection.... you just have to find ways around it(In BW it was corsair to chase down ovies etc.)
Just because they didn't make any changes to Terran in this patch doesn't mean that they will never make any changes. They've obviously been focusing on major Protoss changes this time around, which is fine considering how much of an overhaul to the Oracle we're getting.
Be patient. They'll get around to Terran changes eventually.
On October 27 2012 08:02 Audemed wrote: Changed "Purify" to "Photon Overcharge"? Worst MSCore change thus far.
You get mobile detection before robo now. 2 port banshee pretty much gets shut down.
Any cloak openers is pretty much dead with Spore/M-Core/Widow Mine.
Please... in BW players opened with DT's against zerg when every damn overlord gave detection.... you just have to find ways around it(In BW it was corsair to chase down ovies etc.)
There isn't any unit in SC2 that's as good as the Corsair at taking down/scaring away detection
The new oracle ability is just silly, at what point do you ever get the chance to park an extremely low hp unit near a structure for long enough to kill it with 25 dps? Entomb was an interesting and useful harassment method, "pulsar beam" is not.
"1. The Oracle was a unit that didn’t allow players to show much differentiation in skill. Entomb was its main spell, and it made little difference whether it was a Silver or Master level player casting this ability." Does anybody legitimately agree with this line of thinking? There's plenty of non-challenging abilities in the game, and any spell that is going to be used to harass workers will not require skill. There's no way you can make a spell that will be used against almost stationary targets "skillful" it just doesn't make sense. Also, in what way is pulsar beam more skillful than entomb? Yes, you have to pull back your oracle, however now all your opponent has to do is leave two marines in their base and it makes this unit useless for harassment, which defeats the notion that the oracle will stop players from wanting to deathball.
2. Entomb wasn’t a fun spectator spell because there were no varying degrees of success; it was either cast or not cast. Any spell that blocks economy without damage isn't "fun" to watch. Yes it doesn't kill things, maybe the less cerebral of the audience can get over it and enjoy the mass storms and forcefields protosses will use to win games afterward. Not every element of starcraft is supposed to be exciting to uneducated watchers.
3. The Oracle didn’t add much to the army when it was done harassing the enemy’s base. I just... This was the entire idea of the unit, as blizzard preached it before. Literally their purpose in creating this unit was to counter-act death balls, by pulling food away from the main army. If you want non-deathball style play, you have to make units that aren't good in mass numbers, which is a lot harder in the starcraft 2 engine than it was in broodwar.
It is extremely obvious that when you take away a units harassment ability, and give it something that is stronger against large groups (ie AoE CC/Zoning abilities) then it will contribute to the deathball syndrome.
I would rather have a nerfed version of the warhound in the game, and have entomb than "pulsar beam".
As a protoss I can also say that timewarp will end up being a bad thing as well in all likelyhood. The game was balanced around force-fields which has made protoss gimmicky enough already imo, We don't need another zoning ability, we need zoning units (collossus =/= reaver).
We need harassment and meaty units other than zealots. /rant
On October 27 2012 07:34 eviltomahawk wrote: Just went in-game and found out that the Time Warp has a whopping 30 second duration in addition to it's relatively wide radius.
Two Time Warp bubbles covers a very large area of a mineral field.
And 6 Oracles with Pulsar Beam kills buildings REALLY fast.
Ugh.. So an Oracle can just Time warp your mineral line and you're mining at 50% the speed for 30s and you have NO counter play ?
Well it literally took me one game to see how broken Protoss is now.
The M-Core early harass was just perfect, just enough to be annoying and do a little damage to a player playing stupidly but not broken.
Now you scout a 1-basing Protoss as Terran, and if you prepare for a typical 4-gate, you'll die when he attacks your main with 2-3 oracles while still pressuring the front with a handful of stalkers. You can ward off one of the attacks but not both. I'm not a pro but I just had a silver protoss do this and I don't really see how you defend it.
On October 27 2012 08:12 neversleeping wrote: Well it literally took me one game to see how broken Protoss is now.
The M-Core early harass was just perfect, just enough to be annoying and do a little damage to a player playing stupidly but not broken.
Now you scout a 1-basing Protoss as Terran, and if you prepare for a typical 4-gate, you'll die when he attacks your main with 2-3 oracles while still pressuring the front with a handful of stalkers. You can ward off one of the attacks but not both. I'm not a pro but I just had a silver protoss do this and I don't really see how you defend it.
Oh noez an attack at the front AND in your base? How could a player handle such a thing? Seriously, my heart goes out to you man.
But actually, scan and split your army. Maybe build a bunker? 2 marines can shoo oracles away. Next time there are marines at my front and widow mines in my mineral line, I'll think of you and chuckle.
White-Ra is really using the new time-warp like a entomb...has anybody done the math to know how much of an effect half speed workers at 60 seconds has on mineral production?
On October 27 2012 07:34 eviltomahawk wrote: Just went in-game and found out that the Time Warp has a whopping 30 second duration in addition to it's relatively wide radius.
Two Time Warp bubbles covers a very large area of a mineral field.
And 6 Oracles with Pulsar Beam kills buildings REALLY fast.
Ugh.. So an Oracle can just Time warp your mineral line and you're mining at 50% the speed for 30s and you have NO counter play ?
That's even worse than Entomb TT
Assuming that a decently saturated base mines 800 minerals per minute, I think a couple of Time Warps covering an entire mineral line should deny 200 minerals over 30 seconds, since I'm assuming that the 50% slow effect puts a 50% reduction in mineral income on what I assume is normally 400 minerals per 30 seconds. I could be wrong. Testing needs to be done.
On October 27 2012 08:21 Fungal Growth wrote: White-Ra is really using the new time-warp like a entomb...has anybody done the math to know how much of an effect half speed workers at 60 seconds has on mineral production?
A worker mines at 40 minerals per second assuming saturation. So probably half of that.
On October 27 2012 08:21 Fungal Growth wrote: White-Ra is really using the new time-warp like a entomb...has anybody done the math to know how much of an effect half speed workers at 60 seconds has on mineral production?
Not sure. One difference I'm noticing is that the Oracle needs to be really close to cast it. I think static defense is much better at scaring away the Oracle now.
Edit: I think my observation might wrong... now that I've seen Whitera just cast it again.
On October 27 2012 08:21 Fungal Growth wrote: White-Ra is really using the new time-warp like a entomb...has anybody done the math to know how much of an effect half speed workers at 60 seconds has on mineral production?
Not sure. One difference I'm noticing is that the Oracle needs to be really close to cast it. I think static defense is much better at scaring away the Oracle now.
But.. the range is 9 oO
And half your income on one base for 30s is pretty brutal imo
Between FF and Timewarp that should effectively remove the one thing that helps Terran against the typical Protoss deathball and that is splitting marines to help dodge all the AoE. In the right hands FF and TW with Colossus and HT's should pretty much eliminate bio play against a protoss deathball. And well, mech is still sort of a joke against Protoss.
So all in all, I think the patch is just glorious.
I hate to be sarcastic, because I know Blizzard has a very specific process they follow and they will fix it in the end, but geezzusss... *rolling eyes*
On October 27 2012 07:34 eviltomahawk wrote: Just went in-game and found out that the Time Warp has a whopping 30 second duration in addition to it's relatively wide radius.
Two Time Warp bubbles covers a very large area of a mineral field.
And 6 Oracles with Pulsar Beam kills buildings REALLY fast.
Ugh.. So an Oracle can just Time warp your mineral line and you're mining at 50% the speed for 30s and you have NO counter play ?
That's even worse than Entomb TT
Assuming that a decently saturated base mines 800 minerals per minute, I think a couple of Time Warps covering an entire mineral line should deny 200 minerals over 30 seconds, since I'm assuming that the 50% slow effect puts a 50% reduction in mineral income on what I assume is normally 400 minerals per 30 seconds. I could be wrong. Testing needs to be done.
Well it doesn't really put a direct 50% lose on mining time, becuase the worker does spend some time actually mining the minerals which timewarp doesn't slow down(Only slows it walking to and from the mineral patch)
Still it's obviously going to need some little tweaks here and there.
On October 27 2012 08:21 Fungal Growth wrote: White-Ra is really using the new time-warp like a entomb...has anybody done the math to know how much of an effect half speed workers at 60 seconds has on mineral production?
Not sure. One difference I'm noticing is that the Oracle needs to be really close to cast it. I think static defense is much better at scaring away the Oracle now.
But.. the range is 9 oO
Sorry, I just saw Whitera cast it and he ended up getting shot down by Marines guarding the minerals O_O
On October 27 2012 06:31 felisconcolori wrote: I like the changes. However, I would also like it if any unit caught in the Time Warp field, if given the /dance command, proceeds to jump the left, then step to the right, prior to bringing its knees in tight and then doing a pelvic thrust.
+5 points if you understand why.
Why not have the units bring their hands to their hips? Seems like you missed something there...
On October 27 2012 07:34 eviltomahawk wrote: Just went in-game and found out that the Time Warp has a whopping 30 second duration in addition to it's relatively wide radius.
Two Time Warp bubbles covers a very large area of a mineral field.
And 6 Oracles with Pulsar Beam kills buildings REALLY fast.
Ugh.. So an Oracle can just Time warp your mineral line and you're mining at 50% the speed for 30s and you have NO counter play ?
That's even worse than Entomb TT
Assuming that a decently saturated base mines 800 minerals per minute, I think a couple of Time Warps covering an entire mineral line should deny 200 minerals over 30 seconds, since I'm assuming that the 50% slow effect puts a 50% reduction in mineral income on what I assume is normally 400 minerals per 30 seconds. I could be wrong. Testing needs to be done.
Well it doesn't really put a direct 50% lose on mining time, becuase the worker does spend some time actually mining the minerals which timewarp doesn't slow down(Only slows it walking to and from the mineral patch)
Still it's obviously going to need some little tweaks here and there.
That's true. I forgot to factor that into the equation.
I like the 30 second duration, though I'm wary of the large area of effect. I like how it can be used to annoy mineral lines, yet it can also be used in a multitude of other purposes, which already makes it better than Entomb.
Spine Crawler This unit now completely blocks pathing when placed next to other structures, including other Spine Crawlers. Zerglings and other small units can no longer squeeze in between Spine Crawlers. The scale of this unit has been increased from 0.85 to 0.95.
My favourite patch so far. No more zergling runbys
Spine Crawler This unit now completely blocks pathing when placed next to other structures, including other Spine Crawlers. Zerglings and other small units can no longer squeeze in between Spine Crawlers. The scale of this unit has been increased from 0.85 to 0.95.
My favourite patch so far. No more zergling runbys
Porygon, it defiinitely is, considering the timing. Just goes to show Blizzard is paying VERY close attention to team liquid given the slew of recent patch statements.
I'm liking that they've slowly made the HotS more and more mad, Mines, Vipers and Oracles are all tending towards the nuts side of balance, which is always fun to see.
On October 27 2012 08:10 DodgySmalls wrote: It is extremely obvious that when you take away a units harassment ability, and give it something that is stronger against large groups (ie AoE CC/Zoning abilities) then it will contribute to the deathball syndrome.
I really think that abilities like this will contribute to splitting up deathballs. It may not be the Protoss deathball, but i really don't see a Terran bio-ball being able to do shit against Protoss now. An Oracle and a few HTs will be stop Terrans from being able to run through any choke point.
I am really looking forward to see how the time warp is going to work out. Hopefully Blizzard is going to add something equally powerful to Zerg and Terran instead of just nerfing this to the ground.
As a zerg player I love these changes especially the Ultralisk speed increase.
However, I feel really sorry for Terran players. I don't know how they are going to deal with Protoss now that the threat of a 9 range Time Warp+Storms can absolutely decimate their army. It really gives Terran no room for error when engaging late game with Protoss. Hopefully they'll buff existing WoL units to compensate.
I feel like TvP in HotS at the high level will have a lot of base trading games simply because bio will have no way to engage the Protoss army once they get 2 Oracles, chargelot/Archon/Templar.
On October 27 2012 08:33 People_0f_Color wrote: Porygon, it defiinitely is, considering the timing. Just goes to show Blizzard is paying VERY close attention to team liquid given the slew of recent patch statements.
White-Ra time-warped a big terran bio-ball...and it hardly had any effect...
I suspect the time warp will be like the Viper's blinding cloud...an ability everybody gets excited about but in practice turns out to be near worthless because of it's small area and the ease in which you can micro out of it. Stim marines / 2 are still pretty fast And that's the problem. This ability is really designed to shutdown fast units, yet they will be the ones best able to escape this.
On October 27 2012 08:46 Fungal Growth wrote: White-Ra time-warped a big terran bio-ball...and it hardly had any effect...
I suspect the time warp will be like the Viper's blinding cloud...an ability everybody gets excited about but in practice turns out to be near worthless because of it's small area and the ease in which you can micro out of it. Stim marines / 2 are still pretty fast And that's the problem. This ability is really designed to shutdown fast units, yet they will be the ones best able to escape this.
Well, he only had poorly upgraded gatewya unit to get in the thick of thing. And a lot of zealots which seems affected too.
Not having AoE like storm or colossi against terran Bio at 17min will always mean death, Time warp or not. Still pretty curious to see it's effect on a long macro game where protoss can reach maxed tech.
Creative use of double time-warps by White-ra on the choke to slow down reinforcements to the expo White-ra wanted to attack...still didn't see that effective though. Forcefields would have been much better.
White-Ra looks like he is having fun though, so much fun (raiding a meching Terran). Although it looks like he needs some Zealots or Tempests for this game. Mmmmm, my life for Aiur, indeed. Also, it's good that the Oracle does not appear so OP that Protoss can do without our major AOE. It means that it may not be OP, and that major nerfs may not be required.
No sigh of Colossus though! ;-) Just High Templars. :-)
Of course, it's early days, and it will be difficult to make even an approximately accurate assessment for a while yet.
I hate to be "that guy" but these non-terran changes are making me flaccid . Makes me want to just ladder with zerg...their changes seem much more entertaining than the other two in my opinion...still wish terran mech AA would be fixed ...and no mech vs protoss
White Ra's macro/harass/storms/feeds backs won the game. Plus a well-engineered base race. IMO the time-warps didn't seem that effective in the game except when he used it once to catch up to a retreating mech division.
As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
They've even admitted the 250mm cannon / etc. on thors is terribad, considering the insane changes they're obviously willing to throw out there in HOTS beta, what the hell haven't they done SOMETHING yet for terran mech, thors in particular? Just freaking remove the upgrade and the energy. Find a single terran that would think that was a bad change. What's ridiculous is the energy removal alone wouldn't help -that- much, and they won't even go that far.
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
A small buff to tanks btw is the last thing Terran needs. Tanks are fine . Thors , BC's , Raven and hell even Ghosts ( they're a one-trick anti toss unit now ) are way bigger issues.
Well.. 100 energy Hunter seeker and 10 AtG damage BCs was getting me pretty exited at the beginning of beta. Then it got "fixed" because apparently Dustin Browder announce changes that are effectively bugs.
Oracle beam math: - Both Oracles and Voidrays cost 150 gas, so it is completely fair to compare the two head to head.
- A Voidray has 6 range and hits buildings for 15 DPS uncharged, and 25 DPS charged. An Oracle Beam has 5 range and deals 25 DPS vs buildings all the time.
- A Voidray can attack until destroyed. A freshly built Oracle can channel for 35 seconds, or 875 damage, before running OOM. An Oracle with 100 Energy can channel for 70 seconds, or 1750 damage.
- A Voidray can attack units, an Oracle can't.
- A Voidray has 250 total HP+shields, and moves at 2.25 speed. An Oracle has 160 total HP+Shields, and moves at 3.375 speed.
It's obvious that the Oracle Beam is a very strong building-sniping ability, but Oracles are very fragile, have 1 less range, and cannot attack units. This makes them DRAMATICALLY more vulnerable to basic ranged units like marines, stalkers or queens. While the Oracle can outrun stalkers and queens with ease, all it takes is a tiny handful of units at the edges of a base to "zone out" oracle harass. On the other hand, a base without air defenses can be mauled very quickly by Oracle beam.
addresses a lot of the concerns I raised in a previous post.
the only problem now with Protoss is PvP.. lets see is that still a 1 base all-in. the Purify ability need to be strong enough to deter very early attacks.. can't wait to see.
terran user , just dont buy the hots exp and complain in the main forum , they do read the forum
but i realy noticed that they are far less terran user in teamliquid, same for blizzard main forum or in general playing the game that the other race , just look at the hots forum , almost no topic about terran .
also noticed that terran people usualy whine less , probably because terran are realy strong ( kinda op ) until you hit diamond , master , and you find after less master people who start to understand at this level how terran are broken .
that the reason probably why terran never get buff with the fact that some korean terran are amazing at this game with 300 apm , make blizzard think they are no problem with terran , because terran still win alot , that just 10 player but blizzard think the game balanced for terran because of them .
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
However, I can understand Terran player's pov. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo units, Stargate units, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
On October 27 2012 06:12 emythrel wrote: holy crap, look at those polls. people are saying blizzard made good changes...... wtf happened? Did people finally realise that its a beta and things are not as they will be when released, that the whole purpose of a beta is to actually find out what works and what doesn't? It seems so!
The battle hellion coming from the armory was one of the changes proposed by the community. They listened!
I like the Oracle change but like someone said, Pulsar Beam does seem a bit useless against Zerg and Protoss.
With Protoss, the shields will generally protect most of the structures (I doubt the Oracle can harass long enough to drain out all the shields to damage the HP of the structures). The Oracle might be able to do decent damage but then the shields will regenerate later anyway unless you can stay long enough to damage the HP (which would be really hard to do).
With Zerg, with queens everywhere and safe building placement, I also am not sure if the Oracle can do much.
Though if it works well with Terran, that's good enough IMO.
I mean, like in BW, bio was useless against everything except Zerg (maybe Protoss "occasionally").
Even if a unit works only in one match up, that's a good start.
On October 27 2012 09:40 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: So far, there is no way I'm buying hots for a mine and a half-assed transformer hellion.
Protoss was the race in the most critical state at start of the beta. Now they have a MSC that changes completely the early game, and a Tempest+Oracle that can open viability to Stargate openings in PvT (or at least a less gimmicky one on PVZ). PvP now is much less volatile.
Zerg was always OK, Swarm Hosts and Vipers are really cool and both introduces new ways to play the race. Even they early game mirror is becoming less volatile with the possibility of walling off.
Terran will get his time, what i think we can expect:
- Thor redesign - BC tweaks
What i forsee is Blizzard trying to make AA terran becoming less dumb. Today is "make Vikings and pray". This can be changed improving both Thor and BC.
I'm kinda-sorta digging time warp. I mean, "giant 9-range concussive shell" isn't my favourite thing in the world, but I really like the basic idea of "long-lasting spell that you can walk in and out of". I'd really hoped that they would change fungal to something more like what time warp is now, but... guess not.
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 5+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes. And some of the problems Terran has will not be removed by just small buffs.
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I wish blizzard made Toss and Zerg require 4+ bases + light years of time to reach the ridiculous late game. Don't make Terran boring like the other 2 races...
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I wish blizzard made Toss and Zerg require 4+ bases + light years of time to reach the ridiculous late game. Don't make Terran boring like the other 2 races...
Ever tried teching to BC's or Ravens ? The only things it's compareable is teching to Carriers ... Teching to Colossi , HT's Ultras hell even Brood's is a thousand times faster.
Edit: not sure you agree with me here or not sorry man ^^
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I wish blizzard made Toss and Zerg require 4+ bases + light years of time to reach the ridiculous late game. Don't make Terran boring like the other 2 races...
Ever tried teching to BC's or Ravens ? The only things it's compareable is teching to Carriers ... Teching to Colossi , HT's Ultras hell even Brood's is a thousand times faster.
Yes, make it slightly easier for Terran to tech to BC's and ravens and slightly harder to tech to colossi, HT's, ultras, and broods. Instead of making BC's and ravens a lot easier to tech to,....
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not like the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I wish blizzard made Toss and Zerg require 4+ bases + light years of time to reach the ridiculous late game. Don't make Terran boring like the other 2 races...
Ever tried teching to BC's or Ravens ? The only things it's compareable is teching to Carriers ... Teching to Colossi , HT's Ultras hell even Brood's is a thousand times faster.
Yes, make it slightly easier for Terran to tech to BC's and ravens and slightly harder to tech to colossi, HT's, ultras, and broods. Instead of making BC's and ravens a lot easier to tech to,....
Also the payoffs for the Terran high tech is not where it should be.
On October 27 2012 10:17 6BiT wrote: The fact that the widow mine can still hit cloaked units with detection, and air units in general is a laugh and a half.
Though it's probably the only reason Mech kinda works in TvP on Beta . Widows Mines + Vikings covering your tanks is pretty strong against Air ( and also ground ) . As long as Hellbats are Bio and Thors are useless in TvP they need to keep mines the way they are . ( probably remove the detection though unless something moves directly over it maybe )
On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote: What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it: Change Mine supply to 1 Build time cut by 1/4 Mine is destroyed when activated Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now.
Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game.
On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote: What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it: Change Mine supply to 1 Build time cut by 1/4 Mine is destroyed when activated Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now.
Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game.
What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol.
On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote: What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it: Change Mine supply to 1 Build time cut by 1/4 Mine is destroyed when activated Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now.
Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game.
What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol.
....
Are you playing without detection or something? Mines are not very hard to deal with, you just have to be more careful and not just a-move at a Terran. Which is kind of the whole point of mines in general...
On October 27 2012 10:17 6BiT wrote: The fact that the widow mine can still hit cloaked units with detection, and air units in general is a laugh and a half.
Though it's probably the only reason Mech kinda works in TvP on Beta . Widows Mines + Vikings covering your tanks is pretty strong against Air ( and also ground ) . As long as Hellbats are Bio and Thors are useless in TvP they need to keep mines the way they are . ( probably remove the detection though unless something moves directly over it maybe )
True, I just dislike the unit very much lol.
Its not fun to play against, also from a spectator point of view its boring (which is the bigger concern I have).
On October 27 2012 10:31 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Thor, BC, ghost and Raven deathball Is fu*ked vs. tempest/oracle. The Terran deathball can be kited to death...
Time Warp doesn't affect air so doesn't affect BCs... if you're a BC kinda guy.
On October 27 2012 10:31 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Thor, BC, ghost and Raven deathball Is fu*ked vs. tempest/oracle. The Terran deathball can be kited to death...
I guess we're just gonna have to keep making Vikings.
It's a joke. It's truly a joke. Blizzzard is running this game against a wall. WTF are they doing? They had nearly 2 years to come up with a new multiplayer and now they constantly keep reverting everything and add completely ridiculous, untested abilities with every patch which are not worth testing as they will disappear in the next one.
Pulsar Beam, Time Warp. What the crap is this. I swear the version of Heart of the Swarm they introduced like 8 month ago seemed more sensible and thought-out than this clusterfuck.
On October 27 2012 10:34 rpgalon wrote: 4 Oracles can kill a refinery/extractor in ~3.5 Real Time seconds (5 in-game seconds).
Nice.
It's not outrageous imo. Banshees almost have 20dps without upgrades, and they cost less and more range.
I'm not being sarcastic, I really like it, instead of entomb you can fly in kill an extractor. each extractor killed is a harass of: 75 minerals and more than 120 gas (depends on how long it takes for the opponent to build another and put harvesters into it, so it's 120 gas minimum).
since it kills so fast, you can actually queue a command to kill extractors and retreat like entomb.
On October 27 2012 10:50 AbideWithMe wrote: It's a joke. It's truly a joke. Blizzzard is running this game against a wall. WTF are they doing? They had nearly 2 years to come up with a new multiplayer and now they constantly keep reverting everything and add completely ridiculous, untested abilities with every patch which are not worth testing as they will disappear in the next one.
Pulsar Beam, Time Warp. What the crap is this. I swear the version of Heart of the Swarm they introduced like 8 month ago seemed more sensible and thought-out than this clusterfuck.
The one patch you chose to complain about is the only one that has TL approval of all its changes lol.
On October 27 2012 10:50 AbideWithMe wrote: It's a joke. It's truly a joke. Blizzzard is running this game against a wall. WTF are they doing? They had nearly 2 years to come up with a new multiplayer and now they constantly keep reverting everything and add completely ridiculous, untested abilities with every patch which are not worth testing as they will disappear in the next one.
Pulsar Beam, Time Warp. What the crap is this. I swear the version of Heart of the Swarm they introduced like 8 month ago seemed more sensible and thought-out than this clusterfuck.
On October 27 2012 10:34 rpgalon wrote: 4 Oracles can kill a refinery/extractor in ~3.5 Real Time seconds (5 in-game seconds).
Nice.
It's not outrageous imo. Banshees almost have 20dps without upgrades, and they cost less and more range.
I'm not being sarcastic, I really like it, instead of entomb you can fly in kill an extractor. each extractor killed is a harass of: 75 minerals and more than 120 gas (depends on how long it takes for the opponent to build another and put harvesters into it, so it's 120 gas minimum).
since it kills so fast, you can actually queue a command to kill extractors and retreat like entomb.
Okay, I like too.
If they do nerf it because it's too good, then they should increase the energy cost rather than decreasing damage to keep it exciting.
On October 27 2012 10:50 AbideWithMe wrote: Pulsar Beam, Time Warp. What the crap is this. I swear the version of Heart of the Swarm they introduced like 8 month ago seemed more sensible and thought-out than this clusterfuck.
Really liking the new patch. Oracle seems more useful now and glad that mothership core can detect so it allows different tech paths and not so reliant on robo.
Great Patch.Almost everyone like it.Not so happy to see another Unit added to the Protoss DEathball,but at least with Tempest changes,now players may go StarGate instead of Robo and also no need of observers so much...
The bad side: It seems like Protoss race got lot of issues in HotS,but what about Terran?We still got 1.5 new units and this horrible Hellbatman...
On October 27 2012 11:05 MCDayC wrote: Kinda wish they stuck with the idea of Oracles' revelation spell detecting, MSC detection seems a bit too early.
Widow-Mine, Widow-Mine, Destroys everything if you can't see it. Can it kill a Nexus? No, it can't, that's probably a bug! Look out, for the next patch!
I don't like the new oracle abilities. It doesn't feel right ... its just another 'attack' of sorts. Indeed even time warp is more effective in engagements rather than harassing a mineral line (you need two to cover the entire width, and it doesn't last too long), and anyways, it feels like I'm using FF anyways, like just a flying mobile sentry. Even when you look at MSC, it went from a defensive support tool, to something you use as an attacking tool (attack+recall, msc rush v queen).
I do miss entomb. With the changes many people proposed, like microable casting, so many entomb+storm possibilities ...
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air).
On October 27 2012 11:05 MCDayC wrote: Kinda wish they stuck with the idea of Oracles' revelation spell detecting, MSC detection seems a bit too early.
Widow-Mine, Widow-Mine, Destroys everything if you can't see it. Can it kill a Nexus? No, it can't, that's probably a bug! Look out, for the next patch!
I'm shocked at the amount of people that like the Oracle changes. Is it because of pulsar beam? Time warp is just an aoe concussive shell, and I don't remember too many people praising that ability. It makes engagements slower and less exciting imo ;/
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air).
There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
On October 27 2012 11:52 Tachion wrote: I'm shocked at the amount of people that like the Oracle changes. Is it because of pulsar beam? Time warp is just an aoe concussive shell, and I don't remember too people people praising that ability. It makes engagements slower and less exciting imo ;/
Unlike a concussive shell hit, you can move out of the time warp field, but this requires active micro from the opponent. Also it's very powerful for area control, which people want more of.
On October 27 2012 11:52 Tachion wrote: I'm shocked at the amount of people that like the Oracle changes. Is it because of pulsar beam? Time warp is just an aoe concussive shell, and I don't remember too people people praising that ability. It makes engagements slower and less exciting imo ;/
Unlike a concussive shell hit, you can move out of the time warp field, but this requires active micro from the opponent. Also it's very powerful for area control, which people want more of.
Oh, so it's like that secret mission ability in single player. I thought it was more of a fungal type debuff that stuck on the units after it hit. Not as bad as I thought.
The changes are huge :D I mean I played only one game before the changes but the oracle was super lame.
Now it's awesome, you can actually play 3 gate,1 stargate now and MAY be able to face stimmed bio without collossi psistorm. And the pulsar beam is murderous. With 5 oracles you can keep the map free of expansions. But they die so fast that even a few air units will massacre them unless you care for them at all times.
The timewarp can finally help stopping harrassment from zerglings, and stimmed bio. Sadly it cannot slow down medivacs still It's so nice to finally have a protoss unit that can dart in quickly and cause some pain )
The mothership core still seems strange to me, but I never liked the mothership and the whole unique unit idea anyway...
Widow mines are a real killer as well - terrans have no reason to be pissed. You simply had too many units and abilities anyways. Widow mines are so mean - they kill your observers if you are not extremely careful. It may be hard to balance all this stuff but it certainly makes for fun and more diverse gameplay.
On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote: What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it: Change Mine supply to 1 Build time cut by 1/4 Mine is destroyed when activated Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now.
Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game.
What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol.
If you are active on the map with cheap units you can clean them up easly, or use you know, a stalker and a obs. a roach and a overseer..
On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote: What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it: Change Mine supply to 1 Build time cut by 1/4 Mine is destroyed when activated Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now.
Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game.
What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol.
If you are active on the map with cheap units you can clean them up easly, or use you know, a stalker and a obs. a roach and a overseer..
You can't clear mines with 1 roach and 1 overseer FYI
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air).
There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
While I do think inject larvaes actually do injects too many larvaes as opposed to regular macro hatches, and that warpgate is simply the biggest game breaker in terms of mechanics, I think terran macro is in good shape. Besides, Terran has the best tier 1 of the game by very far, and with reactors, marines/helions/vikings are built pretty fast.
On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote: What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it: Change Mine supply to 1 Build time cut by 1/4 Mine is destroyed when activated Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now.
Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game.
What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol.
....
Are you playing without detection or something? Mines are not very hard to deal with, you just have to be more careful and not just a-move at a Terran. Which is kind of the whole point of mines in general...
Okay, here I'll help you. First off you're under the assumption people are making mines every bit. The truth of the matter is, the most effective way to play T atm is just mass mines with small other unit harass/support until mid game and economy is established as for protoss there is no way to put pressure back on terrans without detection. Mid game - How did you deal with mech/tanks in BW? you either quick tech change into carriers or you had very good micro to break lines with things like zealots and drops on top of tanks, of course this is all assuming you could get positioning and have taken your 3rd at the correct time to stop their timing. In SC2 If you have mines and then hellions/tanks/thor behind that you cannot get near it and trade effectively if they have mass mines. Take for example you attack into it with immortals and zealots or the basic unit composition at this timing. Zealots and immortals MELT to new mech lines due to mines going through hardened shield and BHel destroying zealots. Even if you're slowing losing observers over time, 1, 2, 3, 4 to scans and vikings so you cannot detect mines (which good terrans will do) you fall behind in gas incredibly fast. Moreover, this lets terran dictate when you can or cannot engage. You literally have no control over it since you have no detection. You cannot early tech into tempests to deal with this either as vikings pretty much own them since they're produced faster and are, again, more cost effective in high number. Late game, mixing tempests in is a good idea though, and I'd admit air toss support/large tech switch late game is quite potent vs this mech army 200/200 if done at the right time. Tempests in good number with storm/archons allow you to deal with vikings quite well so then it becomes a debate of T3. But that's not what I'm focusing on.
The truth of what I'm saying though isn't that mines in themselves are imbalanced. What I'm stating is that early to mid game mines dictate the game too much, and any trade you do with them, unless you're just straight out killing them with 0 damage taken is an incredibly awful exchange. Especially observers since you'd rather be making immortals or collosus/putting gas somewhere else. If what you're really suggesting is that you should inch your observer across the map incredibly slowly, or baby sit the minimap .. I have no idea if you're planning to multi task somewhere else or just sit in your base @_@;;..
On October 27 2012 12:16 Tsuki.eu wrote:
If you are active on the map with cheap units you can clean them up easly, or use you know, a stalker and a obs. a roach and a overseer..
Yeah, sure in an ideal situation where they just leave the mines there and let u kill them with a few stalkers. Seriously? A good terran isn't going to just "let" you kill their mines. They're going to put them in very good strategic locations, either near their army, or in an obscure spot to take army off guard. Just like with off set high templars. It feels like either none of you guys have played against high level terrans and are just theory crafting or are just assuming these things are balanced.
And I want to reiterate, I have ZERO problem with the mine concept, if done correctly(i.e I think BW mines were 100% fine). But what the problem is right now is how cost effective these things are trading, and what they allow the terran to do in the mean time. Keep in mind, these mines can be set off and then continue to be used. If you kill a cloaked banshee TvT with a mine you've denied the research they put into cloak, the banshee, and the potential harass time they could have done. All with a singular mine that can be reused. If that does not seem farfetched either you are blind sighted, or are blatantly ignoring the obvious.
On October 27 2012 12:14 Dvriel wrote: Still dont see a Role for the Void Ray in SC2.And people still dont use CArriers..
I've been experimenting with Carriers quite a bit this week. They are good vs Swarm Host contains and late game mech, but you have to try to hide the tech. Carriers have always been quite powerful, but easily prepared for if you know they are coming. The unit still needs some love, but with Mothership Core and increased usefulness of Oracle, Stargate play is definitely starting to become something of a viable alternative to Robo play, or at least very solid support.
I wouldn't shed a tear over losing Void Rays, though. Oracle and Tempest basically do what the Void Ray does, but in different and more useful ways.
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air).
There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
While I do think inject larvaes actually do injects too many larvaes as opposed to regular macro hatches, and that warpgate is simply the biggest game breaker in terms of mechanics, I think terran macro is in good shape. Besides, Terran has the best tier 1 of the game by very far, and with reactors, marines/helions/vikings are built pretty fast.
Inject Larvae dont cost 300 mins.Only 25 Energy of a Queendralisk.Terran macro is in good shape,but Z and Ps is in much better.They just produce more quickly and the warp doing it anywhere you wish is just insane.
The best tier 1 doesnt win games for you alone.You must make a combo with tier 2.5 Medivacs.Terrans lack of Splash damge in Late Game.
Mech has no solution to airtoss especially tempests. Viking is the only anti-air unit that works in TvP mech. BC is dead because of Tempest's massive bonus and void ray's massive bonus. And Thor is also not useful in anti-air due to Tempest's massive bonus.
If you go bio, then the time warp + storm is a insanely good. You can use 4 oracle to cover almost the entire screen with time warp. Even with stim, bio moves very very slow within time warp. And we all know that terran bio can only survive when you micro them very well.
I mean, Terran is in pretty bad shape in WOL and there is less and less light for Terran in HOTS.
On October 27 2012 12:14 Dvriel wrote: Still dont see a Role for the Void Ray in SC2.And people still dont use CArriers..
I've been experimenting with Carriers quite a bit this week. They are good vs Swarm Host contains and late game mech, but you have to try to hide the tech. Carriers have always been quite powerful, but easily prepared for if you know they are coming. The unit still needs some love, but with Mothership Core and increased usefulness of Oracle, Stargate play is definitely starting to become something of a viable alternative to Robo play, or at least very solid support.
I wouldn't shed a tear over losing Void Rays, though. Oracle and Tempest basically do what the Void Ray does, but in different and more useful ways.
But, but, they are basically Vorlon Battlecruisers!
Seriously though, I'll miss Void Rays even though they have become niche units. I hope a role is found for them.
Perhaps straight up combat? Although in what way and form, I don't know.
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air).
There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
While I do think inject larvaes actually do injects too many larvaes as opposed to regular macro hatches, and that warpgate is simply the biggest game breaker in terms of mechanics, I think terran macro is in good shape. Besides, Terran has the best tier 1 of the game by very far, and with reactors, marines/helions/vikings are built pretty fast.
Production becomes a problem if you can't rely on core units coming from reactors . Which only works with Marines anyway. Helions/Vikings aren't core units anyway for like niche units.
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air).
There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
While I do think inject larvaes actually do injects too many larvaes as opposed to regular macro hatches, and that warpgate is simply the biggest game breaker in terms of mechanics, I think terran macro is in good shape. Besides, Terran has the best tier 1 of the game by very far, and with reactors, marines/helions/vikings are built pretty fast.
Production becomes a problem if you can't rely on core units coming from reactors . Which only works with Marines anyway. Helions/Vikings aren't core units anyway for like niche units.
I kind of disagree with this. Hellions/Vikings are a lot more important now if you're going mech. I feel like they should make up the bulk of your army comp with only a handful of tanks/thors to add in the real power. With mines and battle hellions mech should play out very differently in straight up battles than current WoL mech.
all looks pretty good to me, or at least nothing got worse as far as i can tell. tempest continues to be the way blizzard is choosing to patch the tech hole between gateway units and viable air builds, kind of a boring unit but it's been doing its job fairly well from what i've seen. time warp seems cool. pulsar beam is kinda "what", only being able to attack buildings is kinda contrived, but not nearly as contrived as entomb was so whatever.
i really think widow mine needs to be nerfed. either make it cost a lot more, or make it require an upgrade to get detection at a higher tech level, or remove detection entirely. it's completely insane that terran can spend 75/25 (or something like that? i know they're cheap as hell) each on a pair of cloaked units that completely shuts down all threat of DT's, and probably cripple other cloaked strategies like burrow-walking infestors, cloaked banshees, etc...
anyway, i like that the mcore, oracle and viper are becoming more useful, but will just die for no return if you a-move them with your army (i wince everytime a protoss loses their mcore because they didn't keep it at a safe distance, and watching vipers melt is so so sad.)
On October 27 2012 12:38 larse wrote: Just saw some streams with the new patch.
Terran is pretty dead.
Mech has no solution to airtoss especially tempests. Viking is the only anti-air unit that works in TvP mech. BC is dead because of Tempest's massive bonus and void ray's massive bonus. And Thor is also not useful in anti-air due to Tempest's massive bonus.
If you go bio, then the time warp + storm is a insanely good. You can use 4 oracle to cover almost the entire screen with time warp. Even with stim, bio moves very very slow within time warp. And we all know that terran bio can only survive when you micro them very well.
I mean, Terran is in pretty bad shape in WOL and there is less and less light for Terran in HOTS.
The Protoss Fungal will make BIO impossible in HotS.In WoL there was ONLY BIO in TvP,so I suppose Blizzard want to change this and we now must go back to BW and play Mech again.In the streams P go HT+Tempest+harras with blink stalkers,chargelots and Warp Prism.Mech cant cover all of this.Even Vikings can deal pretty well with Tempest,the storms kill them. And Widow Mines are a joke in TvP.They just do nothing.Maybe hit some bad controlled Zealot,Staleker or Observer,but thats all in Early and Mid.Late game Mines do nothing.Observer outrange them and Tempest kill it,thats why T goes now lot of Ravens.Anyways Tempest outrange Tank,Viking and Mines,so Protoss send Obs,kill some mines and spot vikings to shoot them with Tempest.Vikings approach and then HT storm them:GG.
How can people say that Terrans dictate the TvP in HotS with Widow Mines???
On October 27 2012 12:38 larse wrote: Just saw some streams with the new patch.
Terran is pretty dead.
Mech has no solution to airtoss especially tempests. Viking is the only anti-air unit that works in TvP mech. BC is dead because of Tempest's massive bonus and void ray's massive bonus. And Thor is also not useful in anti-air due to Tempest's massive bonus.
If you go bio, then the time warp + storm is a insanely good. You can use 4 oracle to cover almost the entire screen with time warp. Even with stim, bio moves very very slow within time warp. And we all know that terran bio can only survive when you micro them very well.
I mean, Terran is in pretty bad shape in WOL and there is less and less light for Terran in HOTS.
it was looking like that even before today's patch. the tempest has really changed things. i'm guessing that once this goes on long enough they'll reintroduce their "new and improved" war hound, and it'll probably (i hope) be geared towards dealing with this problem, or at least have some crossover in dealing with it. hopefully something that synergizes well with thors without replacing them.
On October 27 2012 12:38 larse wrote: Just saw some streams with the new patch.
Terran is pretty dead.
Mech has no solution to airtoss especially tempests. Viking is the only anti-air unit that works in TvP mech. BC is dead because of Tempest's massive bonus and void ray's massive bonus. And Thor is also not useful in anti-air due to Tempest's massive bonus.
If you go bio, then the time warp + storm is a insanely good. You can use 4 oracle to cover almost the entire screen with time warp. Even with stim, bio moves very very slow within time warp. And we all know that terran bio can only survive when you micro them very well.
I mean, Terran is in pretty bad shape in WOL and there is less and less light for Terran in HOTS.
The Protoss Fungal will make BIO impossible in HotS.In WoL there was ONLY BIO in TvP,so I suppose Blizzard want to change this and we now must go back to BW and play Mech again.In the streams P go HT+Tempest+harras with blink stalkers,chargelots and Warp Prism.Mech cant cover all of this.Even Vikings can deal pretty well with Tempest,the storms kill them. And Widow Mines are a joke in TvP.They just do nothing.Maybe hit some bad controlled Zealot,Staleker or Observer,but thats all in Early and Mid.Late game Mines do nothing.Observer outrange them and Tempest kill it,thats why T goes now lot of Ravens.Anyways Tempest outrange Tank,Viking and Mines,so Protoss send Obs,kill some mines and spot vikings to shoot them with Tempest.Vikings approach and then HT storm them:GG.
How can people say that Terrans dictate the TvP in HotS with Widow Mines???
People who can't see right through it. And they are saying things like "we need more time to see whether is true", "metagame will always change", or "you don't know whether it's OP or not now". Well, a wise theorycrafting just provides as much insight as how the actual game turns out. It's obvious now that Terran is lacking something in TvP.
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air).
There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
While I do think inject larvaes actually do injects too many larvaes as opposed to regular macro hatches, and that warpgate is simply the biggest game breaker in terms of mechanics, I think terran macro is in good shape. Besides, Terran has the best tier 1 of the game by very far, and with reactors, marines/helions/vikings are built pretty fast.
Production becomes a problem if you can't rely on core units coming from reactors . Which only works with Marines anyway. Helions/Vikings aren't core units anyway for like niche units.
a cool idea i had was to make the fusion core have an upgrade to turn all add ons into those special addons you see in the campaign, You know the ones that allow double production of any unit?
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air).
There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
While I do think inject larvaes actually do injects too many larvaes as opposed to regular macro hatches, and that warpgate is simply the biggest game breaker in terms of mechanics, I think terran macro is in good shape. Besides, Terran has the best tier 1 of the game by very far, and with reactors, marines/helions/vikings are built pretty fast.
Production becomes a problem if you can't rely on core units coming from reactors . Which only works with Marines anyway. Helions/Vikings aren't core units anyway for like niche units.
I kind of disagree with this. Hellions/Vikings are a lot more important now if you're going mech. I feel like they should make up the bulk of your army comp with only a handful of tanks/thors to add in the real power. With mines and battle hellions mech should play out very differently in straight up battles than current WoL mech.
Then you create a very weak army . Vikings are pure AA and Helions are still not great combat units and are also for whatever reason Bio now. The bulk of your army will allways be tanks if you Mech . Helions don't nearly have enough firepower to be anything but buffer . There's also no reason to get more than at best a few Vikings unless your opponent goes air bigtime. They're bad unless you need anti-air why should that units be a core unit if your opponent doesn't use that ?
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air).
There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
Huh? What are you on about? Marines, probably the best all-around unit in the game, are built 2 at a time from Reactors. Same with Hellions, Medivacs, Vikings etc. All races have production boosts in their own respective ways. The only issue, from a Terran perspective, is Protoss warpgate when 200/200 and Zerg production capacity with Larvae Inject. Even then, Protoss WG only affects GW units and the Zealot remax from WOL is being countered with the addition of the Hellbat so that you hardly see Zealot heavy armies in HotS PvT anymore. (Unlike Zerg we don't get to warp our Robo and SG units.)
Secondly, Protoss upgrades have always been that way from SC1 onwards. Remember that Protoss defensive upgrades are shared between armour and shields. Shield upgrades are expensive (as they affect buildings too) and are rarely used in active PvX play due to their heavy costs. You usually only see them in the very late game, and when Protoss can afford them. This is why the basic Protoss ground army shares upgrades. It is also because Protoss armies are always synergistic and usually involve a mix of Robo and GW units. We can't go just GW or just Robo. Two upgrade paths on top of expensive units, expensive structures, and with the armour/shield divergence would be unaffordable and ineffective for any Protoss player.
I can get why you are peeved off. But your opinion here is just wrong.
Damn you Blizzard, you guys are so incompetent. How can you give so much great stuff to zerg, terran and protoss without buffing random? Poor random players have no incentive to buy HOTS. As a long-time random player I'm voicing my great displeasure with this debacle.
Holy cow...so I just looked at the changes from Husky's VoDs...I could totally see the slowing field with storm obliterate everything, and mass oracles sniping buildings in 4v4s! Looks like protoss got a pretty nice change
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air).
There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
Huh? What are you on about? Marines, probably the best all-around unit in the game, are built 2 at a time from Reactors. Same with Hellions, Medivacs, Vikings etc. All races have production boosts in their own respective ways. The only issue, from a Terran perspective, is Protoss warpgate when 200/200 and Zerg production capacity with Larvae Inject. Even then, Protoss WG only affects GW units and the Zealot remax from WOL is being countered with the addition of the Hellbat so that you hardly see Zealot heavy armies in HotS PvT anymore. (Unlike Zerg we don't get to warp our Robo and SG units.)
Secondly, Protoss upgrades have always been that way from SC1 onwards. Remember that Protoss defensive upgrades are shared between armour and shields. Shield upgrades are expensive (as they affect buildings too) and are rarely used in active PvX play due to their heavy costs. You usually only see them in the very late game, and when Protoss can afford them. This is why the basic Protoss ground army shares upgrades. It is also because Protoss armies are always synergistic and usually involve a mix of Robo and GW units. We can't go just GW or just Robo. Two upgrade paths on top of expensive units, expensive structures, and with the armour/shield divergence would be unaffordable and ineffective for any Protoss player.
I can get why you are peeved off. But your opinion here is just wrong.
Well,I was only thinking in Late Game.If you lose your army the best race on remaxing is the Zerg,then Protoss and then Terran.Marines use reactor,but it doesnt send them exactly where you wish on the opposit corner of the map,no?Its not only a issue,is a BIG ISSUE when the final battle is on.No matter if you got 4000mins and P 1000,he just remax so quick that you lose.
You are right.Protoss cant separate upgrades,but you still can go only GW units.Zealot,Sentry,Stalker into HT/Archons is totally possible and win lot of games.There is no strong need of Colossi or Immortals in every PvT.But let me ask you: How do T play vs Z?Bio upgrades+Tank or Viking Attack upgrades.Tanks for banelings and Vikings for BLs.Why cant Protoss do the same?If you wanna go Colossi in TvP go and research Attack upgrades in the Roboforge,because is almost the only Robo unit you will use in this MU.I wish to see TvP in WoL with Colossus without upgrades supporting the GW units.It will be the same as the tank for Terran,dont you think?
Terran can go Mech in TvZ,but only BIO is pretty hard because of infestors.
On October 27 2012 13:03 fireforce7 wrote: Holy cow...so I just looked at the changes from Husky's VoDs...I could totally see the slowing field with storm obliterate everything, and mass oracles sniping buildings in 4v4s! Looks like protoss got a pretty nice change
Can you post the link please?Cant find the vods...
On October 27 2012 13:00 ElMeanYo wrote: Damn you Blizzard, you guys are so incompetent. How can you give so much great stuff to zerg, terran and protoss without buffing random? Poor random players have no incentive to buy HOTS. As a long-time random player I'm voicing my great displeasure with this debacle.
On October 27 2012 10:17 aZealot wrote: Question regarding Time Warp, does it affect Blink Stalkers? For example, slow down Blink cooldown by 50%?
Don't think anyone nabbed this, so on the off chance you see this...
No. Movement speed only. Blizzard is considering giving it other effects, like speeding up the timer on infested terrans and broodlings.
Oh shit speeding up the decay rate of summoned units would be such a cool effect, have such awesome impacts on PvZ (Lol autoturrets) without effecting any other matchups and just in general be all round awesome
On October 27 2012 12:38 larse wrote: Just saw some streams with the new patch.
Terran is pretty dead.
Mech has no solution to airtoss especially tempests. Viking is the only anti-air unit that works in TvP mech. BC is dead because of Tempest's massive bonus and void ray's massive bonus. And Thor is also not useful in anti-air due to Tempest's massive bonus.
If you go bio, then the time warp + storm is a insanely good. You can use 4 oracle to cover almost the entire screen with time warp. Even with stim, bio moves very very slow within time warp. And we all know that terran bio can only survive when you micro them very well.
I mean, Terran is in pretty bad shape in WOL and there is less and less light for Terran in HOTS.
Going to have to agree with this sentiment. Hopefully Blizzard will do something before the beta ends.
On October 27 2012 12:38 larse wrote: Just saw some streams with the new patch.
Terran is pretty dead.
Mech has no solution to airtoss especially tempests. Viking is the only anti-air unit that works in TvP mech. BC is dead because of Tempest's massive bonus and void ray's massive bonus. And Thor is also not useful in anti-air due to Tempest's massive bonus.
If you go bio, then the time warp + storm is a insanely good. You can use 4 oracle to cover almost the entire screen with time warp. Even with stim, bio moves very very slow within time warp. And we all know that terran bio can only survive when you micro them very well.
I mean, Terran is in pretty bad shape in WOL and there is less and less light for Terran in HOTS.
Going to have to agree with this sentiment. Hopefully Blizzard will do something before the beta ends.
hey man its ok... after all which race was top dog in the beginning of WOL?... look at it now
On October 27 2012 13:03 awesomoecalypse wrote: Pulsar Beam is the same dps vs buildings as charged Void Rays...except coming from a unit that is faster, cheaper, and requires no charging up.
Also far more fragile, has slightly less range, relies on energy to attack, and can't defend itself.
On October 27 2012 06:38 avilo wrote: Welcome to protossville. Haha @_@
Worst changes imo: Tempests buffed? More? Really? I know people are not used to seeing these much yet, but in lategame both Zerg and Terran really do not have a counter to this + deathball (Terran mech that is). Buffing it even further seems like a terrible idea to me.
Blinding cloud even more powerful? It was insane already. Guess they want to test an even more extreme version.
Best change: Spine crawler change. Holy shit, I may consider taking the time to learn Zerg now haha. ZvZ all-in and coin flip builds will hopefully go away with this change, well not go away completely but be less easy to do and provide some semblance of defender's advantage. I'd think Zerg players would be ridiculously happy with this change.
Well, maybe not the Zergs that love to do coin flippy ling/bane all-ins ZvZ will hate the change :D
Overall opinions: Protoss: Get stuff to make their deathball even stronger, as well as stronger air units. Zerg: Blinding cloud even more powerful now @_@ why exactly? I suppose they want to test it on the extreme? Terran: GL, Have fun building vikings as your only realistic AA option and then losing the game because you were forced to build those vikings and land them all -> in which they all die ez -_-
You wanted them to buff other units and not neft the terran ones. This is what happens. They give everyone awesome stuff and then ton it down to just slightly above reasonable levels.
Oh no, I still think it's awesome they are taking that route with units and making them powerful. They buffed the mine. They buffed the tempest previous patch as well, and they also buffed the blinding cloud previous patch.
Now they've double buffed blinding cloud, and double/triple buffed the tempest, and reverted previous nerfs to the battle hellion (it still has the bio flag on it which is a nerf). Guess they are taking it to the EXTREME yo
I'm not a terran player so I obviously don't understand the units aswell... but how is the hellion having the bio tag a nerf? If you drop them with a medivac then they can be healed etc. I guess you take more dmg from archons... but it's not like you'd be using hellions to fight archons before either....
Helions were used as buffer before which with Bio Helions doesn't work against Archons. After that change they'rve basically become useless with Mech in TvP because nobody builds more then at best a 1-2 Medivacs for drop since it doesn't support your main army. If I Mech I build mines as buffer and not a single Helion. They just don't have a purpose in TvP in your army anymore.
I say make medivacs initially just a dropship. A player can choose to upgrade it to heal either bio or mech. This will nerf early drop harrass, which is powerful enough without healing. It'll also give medivacs a role in the mech army.
-edit- Give ghosts 35(+15 psionic) snipe. Vs psionic it will remain the same, but they will be a little more useful vs other units.
On October 27 2012 13:03 awesomoecalypse wrote: Pulsar Beam is the same dps vs buildings as charged Void Rays...except coming from a unit that is faster, cheaper, and requires no charging up.
Also less durable, unable to hit enemy units, energy dependant and doesn't get benefits from air weapons upgrades.
Just an additional info after some testing: -time warp is 30 seconds and is pretty big although not really huge and does not affect your own units. That's pretty sick, you can timewarp bio units so that your zealots can catch up. it's also much more forgiving than FF
-oracle tempest is a really nice combo with some mixed in phoenix and void.
-The void seems a bit pointless now, it should lose the +massive bonus and get some other useful attribute.
-Vikings still massacre basically all protoss air though and timewarp only works vs ground.
-ghosts still counter all protoss units and will invalidate oracles, but due to the oracle's speed and timewarp's range it's much harder to prevent
-spidermines counter everything (because they kill observers) - aside from psi storm maybe
-ultralisk burrow charge is powerful but does not allow autocast
-it's almost impossible to properly micro a toss army which uses sentry, oracle and MSC at the same time
-with all the cool stuff for zerg and protoss, terran might indeed deserve some form of endgame buff, mid and early game they seem powerful but late game there is nothing new. Maybe a BC upgrade like a short time speed boost or temporary energy shields coupled with faster build time - as there is still nothing to fight off brood infestor corrupter, and with th oracle and tempest late game protoss air may be tough to handle as well
-this game is now already much more sexy than WOL ever was
On October 27 2012 06:38 avilo wrote: Welcome to protossville. Haha @_@
Worst changes imo: Tempests buffed? More? Really? I know people are not used to seeing these much yet, but in lategame both Zerg and Terran really do not have a counter to this + deathball (Terran mech that is). Buffing it even further seems like a terrible idea to me.
Blinding cloud even more powerful? It was insane already. Guess they want to test an even more extreme version.
Best change: Spine crawler change. Holy shit, I may consider taking the time to learn Zerg now haha. ZvZ all-in and coin flip builds will hopefully go away with this change, well not go away completely but be less easy to do and provide some semblance of defender's advantage. I'd think Zerg players would be ridiculously happy with this change.
Well, maybe not the Zergs that love to do coin flippy ling/bane all-ins ZvZ will hate the change :D
Overall opinions: Protoss: Get stuff to make their deathball even stronger, as well as stronger air units. Zerg: Blinding cloud even more powerful now @_@ why exactly? I suppose they want to test it on the extreme? Terran: GL, Have fun building vikings as your only realistic AA option and then losing the game because you were forced to build those vikings and land them all -> in which they all die ez -_-
You wanted them to buff other units and not neft the terran ones. This is what happens. They give everyone awesome stuff and then ton it down to just slightly above reasonable levels.
Oh no, I still think it's awesome they are taking that route with units and making them powerful. They buffed the mine. They buffed the tempest previous patch as well, and they also buffed the blinding cloud previous patch.
Now they've double buffed blinding cloud, and double/triple buffed the tempest, and reverted previous nerfs to the battle hellion (it still has the bio flag on it which is a nerf). Guess they are taking it to the EXTREME yo
I'm not a terran player so I obviously don't understand the units aswell... but how is the hellion having the bio tag a nerf? If you drop them with a medivac then they can be healed etc. I guess you take more dmg from archons... but it's not like you'd be using hellions to fight archons before either....
Helions were used as buffer before which with Bio Helions doesn't work against Archons. After that change they'rve basically become useless with Mech in TvP because nobody builds more then at best a 1-2 Medivacs for drop since it doesn't support your main army. If I Mech I build mines as buffer and not a single Helion. They just don't have a purpose in TvP in your army anymore.
I say make medivacs initially just a dropship. A player can choose to upgrade it to heal either bio or mech. This will nerf early drop harrass, which is powerful enough without healing. It'll also give medivacs a role in the mech army.
-edit- Give ghosts 35(+15 psionic) snipe. Vs psionic it will remain the same, but they will be a little more useful vs other units.
On October 27 2012 13:03 awesomoecalypse wrote: Pulsar Beam is the same dps vs buildings as charged Void Rays...except coming from a unit that is faster, cheaper, and requires no charging up.
Also far more fragile, has slightly less range, relies on energy to attack, and can't defend itself.
I'm not totally sold on it. But I don't hate it.
my first thought was 'move VR to fleet beacon tech, make it stronger', but that might be disastrously powerful and/or interfere with the carrier establishing a role for itself. plus it would be a shame to lose the threat of a void ray cheese... i know no one uses that anymore, but just the fact that it existed keeps players from cutting some corners. honestly dunno what to do about this. maybe give it another, super powerful charge (i think it only has two now despite the animation, right?) that takes a long time to charge, but then that only makes it a threat to buildings, no way a skirmish or large battle lasts long enough for that to matter, and we're back to the oracle doing the same job.
hmm, i see why this is frustrating. perhaps an upgrade of some sort at the fleet beacon or dark shrine, that chains more charges? just brainstorming. probably shouldn't increase range at least. honestly it seems like the tempest is a better alternative now or at least more flexible.
as for pulsar beam, whatever, it's better than the dinky spell it replaced, for what that's worth. mostly i'm just glad entomb is gone.
honestly it's almost like the oracle and tempest together flat out replace the void ray. crossing fingers for a LotV redesign i guess.
On October 27 2012 14:19 ZeromuS wrote: Ok guys let me blow your mind:
The pulsar beam can be channeled at a range of 6 (maybe 6.5 need more testing) if you micro it correctly.
It casts at 5 range but can be channeled at 6 range. This should not be changed. It is fantastic.
Also, if you micro it incorrectly the oracle Channels at 3 range if you cast from full speed (I.E. Shift Queue)
The oracle has some serious serious micro potential for the pulsar beam. It is FANTASTIC
Is there any screen cap stuff someone would like to recommend so I can make a video? Until then Off I go to collect screen shots.
You will be blown away with how awesome this unit truly is.
Shouldn't have said anything. Now Blizzard will "fix" it.
It took me 30 tries to get it to do the following:
BUT If you do it wrong then the oracle starts to channel but decelerates and "shuffles" out of range and the ability stops being cast. The ability also can NOT be on auto cast or must be manually casted to achieve this effect. AND you need to move in a small 45 degree angle in a kind of circle to force the oracle to face the building you want to hit BEFORE you cast it otherwise it just accelerates towards the building (at full speed -_-) and then channels and decel shuffles towards the building you are attacking into 4 or 5 range.
Note that the Marauder and marine were attack moved small bit by bit to get them to their outer ranges. I put the marine at 6 range to show it is indeed not 5 range.
I have no idea how people consider these changes good. Time warp + any aoe will be the end of anything, but especially terran bio. Time warp + FF to always land guaranteed and perfect FFs, also reduce the damage trapped units do to your army. Time warp + storm to basically not even allow bio to split or bait. Time warp + colossus and zealots to nullify bio ability to kite and guarantee huge splash.
I have no idea how they consider TW to be a good idea of a spell, bio already was having a hard time being cost effective against toss armies, now it will just flat out die. Mech will still be useless vs toss because tanks don't give proper zone control and are too easily countered by toss units and in addition mech now has to worry about tempests sniping from a distance. BCs are now equally useless, they already had enough counters via feedbacks from HT, void-ray threats and potential archon toilet, now they also have to face a relatively fast unit that can kite them and kill them with ease.
Problem with TW, also, it can't be fixed in any way, if you reduce the radius too much it becomes nearly useless, if you reduce duration too much it just encouraged making more oracles and spamming the spell, and reducing the speed reduction too much will also tilt the balance of the spell too much. Also a slow like this is ridiculous and stupid for a race that already has so much aoe, there is just no way TW can fit into this context, it just needs to go.
Pulsar beam seems kind of useless, any competent player should still have units in place to deny the harass. In all honesty entombed would have been a more interesting choice if it needed to target individual mineral patches and cost 25 energy per mineral patch, at least it would have taken more skill to use like that.
Viper worries me, I like the unit concept, its good and interesting, it does things no other unit does. However the synergy between Vipers and Infestors will be murderous, and I'm still appalled no one has pointed this out to Blizzard. Basically infestors root things in place while also damaging them, and viper reduces said units range to near 0, and with the units rooted in place, they can't escape the cloud.
Overall, I'm very worried with the direction Blizzard is going, it still feels like they have no clue what they are doing, just trowing ideas randomly out there without any thought as to the consequences of what these changes will do.
On October 27 2012 14:50 Destructicon wrote: I have no idea how people consider these changes good. Time warp + any aoe will be the end of anything, but especially terran bio. Time warp + FF to always land guaranteed and perfect FFs, also reduce the damage trapped units do to your army. Time warp + storm to basically not even allow bio to split or bait. Time warp + colossus and zealots to nullify bio ability to kite and guarantee huge splash.
I have no idea how they consider TW to be a good idea of a spell, bio already was having a hard time being cost effective against toss armies, now it will just flat out die. Mech will still be useless vs toss because tanks don't give proper zone control and are too easily countered by toss units and in addition mech now has to worry about tempests sniping from a distance. BCs are now equally useless, they already had enough counters via feedbacks from HT, void-ray threats and potential archon toilet, now they also have to face a relatively fast unit that can kite them and kill them with ease.
Problem with TW, also, it can't be fixed in any way, if you reduce the radius too much it becomes nearly useless, if you reduce duration too much it just encouraged making more oracles and spamming the spell, and reducing the speed reduction too much will also tilt the balance of the spell too much. Also a slow like this is ridiculous and stupid for a race that already has so much aoe, there is just no way TW can fit into this context, it just needs to go.
Pulsar beam seems kind of useless, any competent player should still have units in place to deny the harass. In all honesty entombed would have been a more interesting choice if it needed to target individual mineral patches and cost 25 energy per mineral patch, at least it would have taken more skill to use like that.
Viper worries me, I like the unit concept, its good and interesting, it does things no other unit does. However the synergy between Vipers and Infestors will be murderous, and I'm still appalled no one has pointed this out to Blizzard. Basically infestors root things in place while also damaging them, and viper reduces said units range to near 0, and with the units rooted in place, they can't escape the cloud.
Overall, I'm very worried with the direction Blizzard is going, it still feels like they have no clue what they are doing, just trowing ideas randomly out there without any thought as to the consequences of what these changes will do.
I don't see how it's "random" if all the changes are liked by the community. Maybe you don't like them for your reasons but is "random" the right word?
On October 27 2012 14:50 Destructicon wrote: I have no idea how people consider these changes good. Time warp + any aoe will be the end of anything, but especially terran bio. Time warp + FF to always land guaranteed and perfect FFs, also reduce the damage trapped units do to your army. Time warp + storm to basically not even allow bio to split or bait. Time warp + colossus and zealots to nullify bio ability to kite and guarantee huge splash.
I have no idea how they consider TW to be a good idea of a spell, bio already was having a hard time being cost effective against toss armies, now it will just flat out die. Mech will still be useless vs toss because tanks don't give proper zone control and are too easily countered by toss units and in addition mech now has to worry about tempests sniping from a distance. BCs are now equally useless, they already had enough counters via feedbacks from HT, void-ray threats and potential archon toilet, now they also have to face a relatively fast unit that can kite them and kill them with ease.
Problem with TW, also, it can't be fixed in any way, if you reduce the radius too much it becomes nearly useless, if you reduce duration too much it just encouraged making more oracles and spamming the spell, and reducing the speed reduction too much will also tilt the balance of the spell too much. Also a slow like this is ridiculous and stupid for a race that already has so much aoe, there is just no way TW can fit into this context, it just needs to go.
Pulsar beam seems kind of useless, any competent player should still have units in place to deny the harass. In all honesty entombed would have been a more interesting choice if it needed to target individual mineral patches and cost 25 energy per mineral patch, at least it would have taken more skill to use like that.
Viper worries me, I like the unit concept, its good and interesting, it does things no other unit does. However the synergy between Vipers and Infestors will be murderous, and I'm still appalled no one has pointed this out to Blizzard. Basically infestors root things in place while also damaging them, and viper reduces said units range to near 0, and with the units rooted in place, they can't escape the cloud.
Overall, I'm very worried with the direction Blizzard is going, it still feels like they have no clue what they are doing, just trowing ideas randomly out there without any thought as to the consequences of what these changes will do.
If you havent played with the new oracle I don't think you should be saying this. The unit is so much fun.
Time Warp and forcefield also don't work that well together.
The only problem with time warp IMO might be the fact it doesn't slow your own units down. Thats the problem. I assumed it would have the same effect but it doesn't.
Time warp has also made a BIG difference in how I deal with things like the swarm hosts. Locusts have a lot of dps but if their approach is slowed it lets me kill them more efficiently so I don't lose as much as I other wise would have. Speed roach all ins might also be easier to hold without mass forcefields.
I tried using forcefields to help against swarm hosts but the problem was that the locusts would stop I would kill a wave then another wave is there in full force. By slowing their approach or getting on top of the swarm hosts with the time warp I can close a lot more ground much quicker on the hosts making them easier to deal with. This will change when fungal is used more often with the hosts but as it is now timewarp is very helpful in a lot of scenarios especially vs Zerg.
I don't care if time warp is fun, its a broken spell given the context it is used in. Time warp + the race that has the most aoe and one of the most powerful zone control spells already is broken, and there is no way around it. I also don't see why TW and FF can't work together, you slow units to make sure they can't escape or dance around the edge of FF range and then you FF them, you then aoe them down with either storm or colossus, and even with zealots and stalkers it is effective because TW doesn't slow your own units.
And yes, random is the right word, because it doesn't feel like Blizzard has an overall direction, or an overarching plan on where they want the races, or new units for each race to go. They also don't seem to be able to put two and two together to notice how overall broken some of the spell combinations can be.
My god the changes to the Oracle are so much better than anything else they had done with it in the past. I truly TRULY hated the entomb ability and finally they have done something about it. There is hope yet.
On October 27 2012 15:00 Destructicon wrote: I don't care if time warp is fun, its a broken spell given the context it is used in. Time warp + the race that has the most aoe and one of the most powerful zone control spells already is broken, and there is no way around it. I also don't see why TW and FF can't work together, you slow units to make sure they can't escape or dance around the edge of FF range and then you FF them, you then aoe them down with either storm or colossus, and even with zealots and stalkers it is effective because TW doesn't slow your own units.
And yes, random is the right word, because it doesn't feel like Blizzard has an overall direction, or an overarching plan on where they want the races, or new units for each race to go. They also don't seem to be able to put two and two together to notice how overall broken some of the spell combinations can be.
Because forcefields are next to useless when units have a 50% slow. The forcefield will hold them there under a slow and prevent your units from moving past them. If the units are slowed then the zealots can charge, kill then KEEP charging. Good forcefields are still better at ceratin points in the game but timewarp has much more utility.
Personally, I would be happy if Forcefields were gone or changed or cost more energy so that they become more of a defensive thing than an offensive thing.
On October 27 2012 15:00 Destructicon wrote: I don't care if time warp is fun, its a broken spell given the context it is used in. Time warp + the race that has the most aoe and one of the most powerful zone control spells already is broken, and there is no way around it. I also don't see why TW and FF can't work together, you slow units to make sure they can't escape or dance around the edge of FF range and then you FF them, you then aoe them down with either storm or colossus, and even with zealots and stalkers it is effective because TW doesn't slow your own units.
And yes, random is the right word, because it doesn't feel like Blizzard has an overall direction, or an overarching plan on where they want the races, or new units for each race to go. They also don't seem to be able to put two and two together to notice how overall broken some of the spell combinations can be.
Wait so this wasn't a design QQ but a balance QQ -_-;;
well yeah, of course. that and just protoss in general. blizzard clearly understands that when beta was released the new toss units all sucked badly and a lot of progress has been made on that front. this patch is sort of the culmination of their efforts to make protoss feel 'new' like zerg did when beta launched.
On October 27 2012 15:00 Destructicon wrote: I don't care if time warp is fun, its a broken spell given the context it is used in. Time warp + the race that has the most aoe and one of the most powerful zone control spells already is broken, and there is no way around it. I also don't see why TW and FF can't work together, you slow units to make sure they can't escape or dance around the edge of FF range and then you FF them, you then aoe them down with either storm or colossus, and even with zealots and stalkers it is effective because TW doesn't slow your own units.
And yes, random is the right word, because it doesn't feel like Blizzard has an overall direction, or an overarching plan on where they want the races, or new units for each race to go. They also don't seem to be able to put two and two together to notice how overall broken some of the spell combinations can be.
Wait so this wasn't a design QQ but a balance QQ -_-;;
It is a design issue, you can't give the race with the most aoe and a zone control spell another slow, it just won't work out well, again remember, bio barely trades well with protoss come the late game, with the slow from TW, bio won't be able to kite or split away from storms/zealots and will just die, simple clean and cut.
The oracle now is a lot of fun, though it does leave the Void Ray at a really akward place. Perhaps it should get a cloak upgrade at the dark shrine which makes the void ray a cloaked unit like a dark templar.
On October 27 2012 15:00 Destructicon wrote: I don't care if time warp is fun, its a broken spell given the context it is used in. Time warp + the race that has the most aoe and one of the most powerful zone control spells already is broken, and there is no way around it. I also don't see why TW and FF can't work together, you slow units to make sure they can't escape or dance around the edge of FF range and then you FF them, you then aoe them down with either storm or colossus, and even with zealots and stalkers it is effective because TW doesn't slow your own units.
And yes, random is the right word, because it doesn't feel like Blizzard has an overall direction, or an overarching plan on where they want the races, or new units for each race to go. They also don't seem to be able to put two and two together to notice how overall broken some of the spell combinations can be.
Wait so this wasn't a design QQ but a balance QQ -_-;;
It is a design issue, you can't give the race with the most aoe and a zone control spell another slow, it just won't work out well, again remember, bio barely trades well with protoss come the late game, with the slow from TW, bio won't be able to kite or split away from storms/zealots and will just die, simple clean and cut.
But they havent even gotten to balancing the WoL units.
On October 27 2012 15:18 Seiniyta wrote: The oracle now is a lot of fun, though it does leave the Void Ray at a really akward place. Perhaps it should get a cloak upgrade at the dark shrine which makes the void ray a cloaked unit like a dark templar.
Cloaked void rays...apparently this unit needs to be cheesier in the bronze leagues...
On October 27 2012 15:18 Seiniyta wrote: The oracle now is a lot of fun, though it does leave the Void Ray at a really akward place. Perhaps it should get a cloak upgrade at the dark shrine which makes the void ray a cloaked unit like a dark templar.
Cloaked void rays...apparently this unit needs to be cheesier in the bronze leagues...
Getting a stargate and teching to Dark shrine isn't something you do really early game. At least, if you want to survive any basic attack.
Sorry, to burst your bubble, but that's not how it works. If it breaks the game by synergizing too good with other spells/units then its bad. You probably have no idea in regards to the magnitude of changes that need to be done to compensate for this, basically it just nullifies bio 100%, it kills the only play style viable for TvP and there is nothing to fall back on.
For bio to trade cost effectively it needs its mobility, it needs to be able to kite, it needs to be able to bait forcefields, it needs to be able to split and dodge storms, it needs to be able to quickly form concaves and arches, you remove the mobility you kill bio.
Far reaching changes would actually have to be made to re-balance that just for the sake of the spell staying in the game, either bio units are made stronger so they can survive the extra punishment they get, or they have to, you know buff tanks back to 60 damage, so that terrans actually have a proper zone control unit in the MU and a unit to properly rely on to fight against the protoss.
Either that or the spell itself will need to be nerfed or all associated spells. Time warp radius will probably need to be a radius of 2 and maybe a 25% slow, if that is not enough then maybe they need to nerf the damage of storm or colossus given that units can no longer escape their aoe. And if you nerf FF, Storm and TW, then you just make them useless without one another.
I really can't see TW staying the way it is, and I definitely can't see it staying with the protoss race, it just adds way too much to the race that already had the strongest aoe.
On October 27 2012 15:29 Destructicon wrote: Sorry, to burst your bubble, but that's not how it works. If it breaks the game by synergizing too good with other spells/units then its bad. You probably have no idea in regards to the magnitude of changes that need to be done to compensate for this, basically it just nullifies bio 100%, it kills the only play style viable for TvP and there is nothing to fall back on.
For bio to trade cost effectively it needs its mobility, it needs to be able to kite, it needs to be able to bait forcefields, it needs to be able to split and dodge storms, it needs to be able to quickly form concaves and arches, you remove the mobility you kill bio.
Far reaching changes would actually have to be made to re-balance that just for the sake of the spell staying in the game, either bio units are made stronger so they can survive the extra punishment they get, or they have to, you know buff tanks back to 60 damage, so that terrans actually have a proper zone control unit in the MU and a unit to properly rely on to fight against the protoss.
Either that or the spell itself will need to be nerfed or all associated spells. Time warp radius will probably need to be a radius of 2 and maybe a 25% slow, if that is not enough then maybe they need to nerf the damage of storm or colossus given that units can no longer escape their aoe. And if you nerf FF, Storm and TW, then you just make them useless without one another.
I really can't see TW staying the way it is, and I definitely can't see it staying with the protoss race, it just adds way too much to the race that already had the strongest aoe.
I think you are just assuming things without using it. I know its going to be changed. But you act as though its broken the game of Starcraft 2. I've used it some and it has yet to completely break anything. Its powerful and useful. But its cast range is not very big and later game in PvT you are going to have vikings that have range 9.
Sure it makes bio harder to pull off I can see that in my mind but bio doesn't need to be viable against EVERY SINGLE thing in the game at all times of the game. At some point a transition to higher tech should happen and Blizzard should work on making this higher tech more viable.
What race should get the spell? Zerg? They already have a full root. If anything fungal should have been time warp right from the beginning.
Terran? Are you really going to give terran time warp just because Protoss has it? I think this spell is 1000x better than entomb. The specifics can be worker on as time goes on as well. But to say terran has Zero response is completely disingenuous. EMP might become a decision to make between oracle vs HTs? If you don't open with oracles when do you get them? What timings exist if the protoss does open oracle? Controlling them isn't easy with their speed. If we remember the infestor its speed was Nerfed and this was considered a BUFF because it kept getting into terrible positions when Zergs were engaging.
One day is not enough time to say its broken. I for one love it in mineral lines, its way more fun than entomb and it can even block GAS if you see a GAS all in. Banelings? Ok, I know my gas is invested in oracles, I know I have a weak wall I can SLOW gas mining to give myself more TIME. Or I can Slow the banelings so they take FOREVER to get here.
On October 27 2012 15:40 Doc Daneeka wrote: what about all the economy pumped into stargates that isn't going into archons, templar or colossi? or sentries for that matter.
maybe the simplest widest reaching fix is for time warp to require a research? would make the unupgraded oracle kind of a retarded unit though.
I think the gas cost will end up being played with before anything else.
On October 27 2012 15:29 Destructicon wrote: Sorry, to burst your bubble, but that's not how it works. If it breaks the game by synergizing too good with other spells/units then its bad. You probably have no idea in regards to the magnitude of changes that need to be done to compensate for this, basically it just nullifies bio 100%, it kills the only play style viable for TvP and there is nothing to fall back on.
9 range is the range of a viking. I respect that you think this breaks the entire game, but I think testing it and waiting and watching might be a better way to see if in fact this is the case. In actual fact neither of us knows.
I love these changes, this is the most interesting balance patch since the beta started imo.
You have no idea how terran works if you say something like that. As long as you have 3 different weapons and armor upgrades, and as long as you have so many supporting upgrades for bio, then bio should be viable, same with mech. And even so pure bio isn't viable it requires a lot of support units via Medivacs, Vikings and Ghosts for it to work. And given how terran production works, once you commit to a certain unit composition, either bio or mech, it better damn work, because you can't salvage those raxes, or convert them to factories.
And its not a problem of bio not being viable in all stages of the game, its a problem of bio just being viable in general, and TW is threatening its very viability. If you didn't read the description correctly it has a cast range of 9, that means that even with Vikings, the speed of the oracle alone guarantees that it will get close to cast its spell before it dies, but it doesn't need to, it can just skirt the sides of the terran army and cast the spell coming from an angle where the least vikings are, and then get out. And actually I probably wouldn't even mind losing 1 or 2 oracles if it means I have a guaranteed shot at destroying the terran army, the cost of the oracle is pitiful in comparison to the cost of an entire army obliterated by colossus and storm.
Really, the only reason you probably aren't finding this to be an issues is because you don't have the mechanics to make it work, pro gamers will just abuse this to destroy terran bio.
Preferably I'd have the spell removed, I don't like micro limiting spells, at least you can react and move out of storm and blinding cloud instantly, you can't with this. If it had to be kept, I'd remove fungal and give it to zerg, or I'd remove FF and let toss keep it. But in no way I'd leave the spell for toss when they already have storm, colossus and FF. Its just too broken.
time warp is going to buff the toss death ball way to much... its going to promote A moving greatly...
why does blizz keep making these click and forget spells? like seriously that doesnt promote micro. cast it once, enemies are slowed, A move with ur colo, archon, and chargelots.
On October 27 2012 14:50 Destructicon wrote: Overall, I'm very worried with the direction Blizzard is going, it still feels like they have no clue what they are doing, just trowing ideas randomly out there without any thought as to the consequences of what these changes will do.
just have to respond to this
first, "without any thought as to the consequences" is a pretty brazen statement to make about a huge professional game developer like blizzard that puts loads of money on the line to make these games. same with "no clue what they are doing", balance may not be moving fast enough to make the hardcore fans totally happy but the fact that they've been so measured and gradual with balance changes in WoL since release should speak volumes about their intentions.
second, it's pretty clear what direction/overarching plan they have for HotS multiplayer. broadly, it's to fix problems with WoL, which WILL get stale if something isn't added, and to do have any significant impact they'll have to add units and mechanics, because there are just certain characteristics of the engine that have limited WoL's skill ceiling. blizzard couldn't have known that when they designed it. this isn't brood war - there's a relatively large community built in and "E-sports" has been involved since day 1, so they have to take both short term and long term issues into account, and can't be too hasty.
more specifically, HotS is adding units that A: provide space control, and B: need to be babysat to be optimally effective. viper, swarm host, oracle, and widow mines all satisfy goal A to varying degrees, and every new unit except perhaps the tempest satisfy goal B. then there's specific unit goals, like the mcore, which from the start has been intended to increase flexibility of movement and improve map control for toss. or the new zerg units - swarm host has been explicitly stated to give zerg more ability to apply pressure, and it's been doing that job since HotS beta launched, and blinding cloud has been shown to have a similar effect lategame against maxed out, fully teched armies that would otherwise be difficult to approach for zerg by any means besides a brood lord push from which there is no return because brood lords are so damn slow (as a side effect requiring more troop repositioning and micro from the opponent, something this community has been clamoring for since WoL was released.) the goal of making air more viable for toss is being met to some degree by the tempest, which is currently acting as a stopgap between basic stargate play and fleet beacon, and we're already seeing carriers show up more than they ever did in WoL beta and arguably WoL post-release. the oracle and mcore only strengthen this. then another stated goal has been to make terran mech viable in more situations, and the warhound was so good at this job that it got flat-out removed. widow mine is attempting to do this job by itself and sort of succeeding, but even if it is ultimately not enough, the SC2 team has already said they intend to redesign the warhound and reintroduce it later in the beta.
so basically everything blizzard has said they intend to do with HotS is being done to varying degrees of success. you can argue that the balance is too wacky right now, or that specific spells or mechanics aren't good, but to say they don't have any overarching plan is sheer ridiculousness. and i don't want to sound like a fanboy, i'm just trying to be pragmatic here.
On October 27 2012 06:03 Noocta wrote: I'm a little bit worried than Time Warp + any kind of aoe damage will make it impossible to play Boi against protoss. :/
How do you dodge storm if your whole deathball is slowed from 9 range away ? Vikings can't even prevent that :O
Seems a lot like vortex, where if you hit the money time warp and then blanket storm, it's gg
Would be late game obviously, if extra tech is required for star port etc, but doesn't Terran struggle enough late game?
On October 27 2012 15:29 Destructicon wrote:Far reaching changes would actually have to be made to re-balance that just for the sake of the spell staying in the game, either bio units are made stronger so they can survive the extra punishment they get, or they have to, you know buff tanks back to 60 damage, so that terrans actually have a proper zone control unit in the MU and a unit to properly rely on to fight against the protoss.
I actually think that Siege Tank damage could use an increase back to pre-nerf levels unless they improve the mines substantially somehow.
On October 27 2012 15:29 Destructicon wrote:Far reaching changes would actually have to be made to re-balance that just for the sake of the spell staying in the game, either bio units are made stronger so they can survive the extra punishment they get, or they have to, you know buff tanks back to 60 damage, so that terrans actually have a proper zone control unit in the MU and a unit to properly rely on to fight against the protoss.
I actually think that Siege Tank damage could use an increase back to pre-nerf levels unless they improve the mines substantially somehow.
That would be too strong. They would one shot Zerglings when upgraded. Plus it's not gonna do shit against Immortals.
Time warp is really going to help a lot vs Mutalisks as well. Part of the problem in dealing with mutas PvZ is their speed and mobility and the fact that its very hard to land a really good storm. So time warp - storm or blink under will be spectacular if a protoss can land it well in PvZ.
Mass mutas will still be hard but with good play not AS hard to deal with.
On October 27 2012 09:26 Snowbear wrote: As a terran I am really not looking forward to HOTS. Atm it's insane how hard terran is in WOL for someone that cant practice 6+ hours everyday. You would expect that blizzard would help us in HOTS, but it seems the other way around: it gets even harder
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air).
There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
Huh? What are you on about? Marines, probably the best all-around unit in the game, are built 2 at a time from Reactors. Same with Hellions, Medivacs, Vikings etc. All races have production boosts in their own respective ways. The only issue, from a Terran perspective, is Protoss warpgate when 200/200 and Zerg production capacity with Larvae Inject. Even then, Protoss WG only affects GW units and the Zealot remax from WOL is being countered with the addition of the Hellbat so that you hardly see Zealot heavy armies in HotS PvT anymore. (Unlike Zerg we don't get to warp our Robo and SG units.)
Secondly, Protoss upgrades have always been that way from SC1 onwards. Remember that Protoss defensive upgrades are shared between armour and shields. Shield upgrades are expensive (as they affect buildings too) and are rarely used in active PvX play due to their heavy costs. You usually only see them in the very late game, and when Protoss can afford them. This is why the basic Protoss ground army shares upgrades. It is also because Protoss armies are always synergistic and usually involve a mix of Robo and GW units. We can't go just GW or just Robo. Two upgrade paths on top of expensive units, expensive structures, and with the armour/shield divergence would be unaffordable and ineffective for any Protoss player.
I can get why you are peeved off. But your opinion here is just wrong.
Well,I was only thinking in Late Game.If you lose your army the best race on remaxing is the Zerg,then Protoss and then Terran.Marines use reactor,but it doesnt send them exactly where you wish on the opposit corner of the map,no?Its not only a issue,is a BIG ISSUE when the final battle is on.No matter if you got 4000mins and P 1000,he just remax so quick that you lose.
You are right.Protoss cant separate upgrades,but you still can go only GW units.Zealot,Sentry,Stalker into HT/Archons is totally possible and win lot of games.There is no strong need of Colossi or Immortals in every PvT.But let me ask you: How do T play vs Z?Bio upgrades+Tank or Viking Attack upgrades.Tanks for banelings and Vikings for BLs.Why cant Protoss do the same?If you wanna go Colossi in TvP go and research Attack upgrades in the Roboforge,because is almost the only Robo unit you will use in this MU.I wish to see TvP in WoL with Colossus without upgrades supporting the GW units.It will be the same as the tank for Terran,dont you think?
Terran can go Mech in TvZ,but only BIO is pretty hard because of infestors.
Yes, Protoss can. But every race has unique features that make it what it is in SC2. Tbh, I really don't see this as a major issue. We've had 2 years and more of WOL and it's not broken the match-up by any means. And now in HotS you have a unit that counters Zealots hard. It's difficult to really talk about this in any depth as what we are doing here is trying to analyse HotS beta by way of referring to our experience in WOL. This is hard to do because as the beta runs its course and HotS is released a whole new meta will arise and change as players explore the game (and Blizzard patches).
Gateway into Archon/HT is possible but is not a staple of Protoss play (for one thing, it is hard countered by Ghosts and is ineffective against Roach heavy armies). It is used sometimes depending on the MU but has usually got to be transitioned into the more standard Protoss composition which involves all the Protoss army. As for the Immortal and Colossus, these are needed not just in PvT but also in other P match-ups, no? More to the point, they are almost always needed. In no match up can a Protoss consistently put just a Gateway army onto the field, or just a Robo army into the field (unless I am playing 4v4 and go Robo+Colossus). And that is fine. Every race has strengths. Every race has weaknesses. Every race has constraints.
As to TvZ, I can't say mate. Again, referring to TvZ in WOL, I hope Terran continue to adapt and explore their race and to find solutions to their problems. (If anything, a nerf to Zerg may be required.) I don't believe looking at upgrades is the way to go though. That would be the easy "fix" (maybe) and require little innovation from Terran players. Small buffs to Terran high tech (+ ghost?) may be the nudge required, but anything more takes the satisfaction out of figuring problems in SC2. That's bad.
But, again, it's hard to see what any of this means with respect to HotS as it is too early to tell. This patch, here, is only the first day of, IIRC, the 4th or 5th patch of the Beta? With many months to go before release probably somewhere in the middle of 2013. Then the real discovery process of the game will begin again for all races. (And unlike last time, I hope Blizzard aren't trigger happy with the balance patches and let the players sort shit out themselves.)
Yeah, it would suck. But DB did say, long ago, that because Terran was the most complete race in SC2, they were hesitant to add too much to Terran. That said, it would be nice to see a small buff to mech - maybe by a small buff to Tanks? If so, I hope it's balanced vs Stalkers as the Hellbat has gone a long way to nullifying Zealot heavy armies in PvT. Of course, if they do buff the Tanks substantively, it may be grounds to tweak the Immortal and return it to being a Gateway unit.
WhiteRa does look like he is having a lot of fun, though. His games, so far, have all been active with plenty of action.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air).
There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
Huh? What are you on about? Marines, probably the best all-around unit in the game, are built 2 at a time from Reactors. Same with Hellions, Medivacs, Vikings etc. All races have production boosts in their own respective ways. The only issue, from a Terran perspective, is Protoss warpgate when 200/200 and Zerg production capacity with Larvae Inject. Even then, Protoss WG only affects GW units and the Zealot remax from WOL is being countered with the addition of the Hellbat so that you hardly see Zealot heavy armies in HotS PvT anymore. (Unlike Zerg we don't get to warp our Robo and SG units.)
Secondly, Protoss upgrades have always been that way from SC1 onwards. Remember that Protoss defensive upgrades are shared between armour and shields. Shield upgrades are expensive (as they affect buildings too) and are rarely used in active PvX play due to their heavy costs. You usually only see them in the very late game, and when Protoss can afford them. This is why the basic Protoss ground army shares upgrades. It is also because Protoss armies are always synergistic and usually involve a mix of Robo and GW units. We can't go just GW or just Robo. Two upgrade paths on top of expensive units, expensive structures, and with the armour/shield divergence would be unaffordable and ineffective for any Protoss player.
I can get why you are peeved off. But your opinion here is just wrong.
Well,I was only thinking in Late Game.If you lose your army the best race on remaxing is the Zerg,then Protoss and then Terran.Marines use reactor,but it doesnt send them exactly where you wish on the opposit corner of the map,no?Its not only a issue,is a BIG ISSUE when the final battle is on.No matter if you got 4000mins and P 1000,he just remax so quick that you lose.
You are right.Protoss cant separate upgrades,but you still can go only GW units.Zealot,Sentry,Stalker into HT/Archons is totally possible and win lot of games.There is no strong need of Colossi or Immortals in every PvT.But let me ask you: How do T play vs Z?Bio upgrades+Tank or Viking Attack upgrades.Tanks for banelings and Vikings for BLs.Why cant Protoss do the same?If you wanna go Colossi in TvP go and research Attack upgrades in the Roboforge,because is almost the only Robo unit you will use in this MU.I wish to see TvP in WoL with Colossus without upgrades supporting the GW units.It will be the same as the tank for Terran,dont you think?
Terran can go Mech in TvZ,but only BIO is pretty hard because of infestors.
Yes, Protoss can. But every race has unique features that make it what it is in SC2. Tbh, I really don't see this as a major issue. We've had 2 years and more of WOL and it's not broken the match-up by any means. And now in HotS you have a unit that counters Zealots hard. It's difficult to really talk about this in any depth as what we are doing here is trying to analyse HotS beta by way of referring to our experience in WOL. This is hard to do because as the beta runs its course and HotS is released a whole new meta will arise and change as players explore the game (and Blizzard patches).
Gateway into Archon/HT is possible but is not a staple of Protoss play (for one thing, it is hard countered by Ghosts and is ineffective against Roach heavy armies). It is used sometimes depending on the MU but has usually got to be transitioned into the more standard Protoss composition which involves all the Protoss army. As for the Immortal and Colossus, these are needed not just in PvT but also in other P match-ups, no? More to the point, they are almost always needed. In no match up can a Protoss consistently put just a Gateway army onto the field, or just a Robo army into the field (unless I am playing 4v4 and go Robo+Colossus). And that is fine. Every race has strengths. Every race has weaknesses. Every race has constraints.
As to TvZ, I can't say mate. Again, referring to TvZ in WOL, I hope Terran continue to adapt and explore their race and to find solutions to their problems. (If anything, a nerf to Zerg may be required.) I don't believe looking at upgrades is the way to go though. That would be the easy "fix" (maybe) and require little innovation from Terran players. Small buffs to Terran high tech (+ ghost?) may be the nudge required, but anything more takes the satisfaction out of figuring problems in SC2. That's bad.
But, again, it's hard to see what any of this means with respect to HotS as it is too early to tell. This patch, here, is only the first day of, IIRC, the 4th or 5th patch of the Beta? With many months to go before release probably somewhere in the middle of 2013. Then the real discovery process of the game will begin again for all races. (And unlike last time, I hope Blizzard aren't trigger happy with the balance patches and let the players sort shit out themselves.)
It is hard to not be trigger happy when there are so many Competitive tournaments being played. Take the ghost nerf. Lets assume they did not nerf snipe and EMP. Could you know how long before Z and P to 'sort it out'. Does Blizzard wait 6 months and all the tournaments are won by Terran with ghosts?
On October 27 2012 16:46 ZeromuS wrote: Time warp is really going to help a lot vs Mutalisks as well. Part of the problem in dealing with mutas PvZ is their speed and mobility and the fact that its very hard to land a really good storm. So time warp - storm or blink under will be spectacular if a protoss can land it well in PvZ.
Mass mutas will still be hard but with good play not AS hard to deal with.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't affect air units. Toss versus mass mutas is a joke, though. No idea why the upgrade for phoenixes has to be on the fleet beacon. And, even if it weren't, corrupters have the same range as upgraded phoenixes. What wins that battle? So if they have mutas and corrupters, what does it solve? It's obviously still a problem, but since everyone learned to go infestors, as most people view that as more OP, blizzard gets to forget about what they set out to solve and act like they did jack shit. W/e. So much qq over time warp from terran players. It could be worse, it could be fungal... Even if toss has more aoe, it could just be another templar. GL dodging spam storm, and it's not like you guys would be microing your ghosts anyways.
Its already so damn hard to play TvP lategame, near impossible unless you have Mvp or Taeja micro. I dont see timewarp being added for the right reasons. Not even the most hardcore protoss lobbyist can say that protoss is struggling late game vs T.
I haven't seen timewarp yet, so I will not beforehand say it is a bad idea, although it looks to be problematic, especially because it looks to be another micro remover: just stop moving and die to storms.
However what mainly gets me confused is that apparently it is seen by many people as something positive that oracles now have a strong role with the main army. I thought that was exactly the opposite from what we wanted, another unit to increase the toss deathball power.
Btw it looks to me also like it is even more mandatory to have strong ait to air against toss, since otherwise they could simply move their army around your army and timewarp your army continiously.
Terran needs BIG changes so they can actually use higher tech units . The investment for BC's , Ravens hell even Thors ( in TvP ) is huge . The payoff ? Not so much. And now with so many new options on Zerg on Toss side your still suck with playing lowtech armies against high tech shit because you don't have any lategame options to tech to that don't take years to get to.
I can't pretend to knowing too much about Terran, but big changes? Would not a Tank buff (say damage) and a Thor buff (remove energy and strike cannon) be sufficient? Sure, it's not sexy, but Terran apart from a few minor holes is a complete race. I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that they absolutely need major new units and abilities. No?
I can understand Terran player's pov, though. It does suck seeing candy distributed to P and Z with T at the back of the line.
From a Protoss perspective though, Protoss in WOL has always been limited, IMO. Powerful but limited. If these HoTS developments continue, I think we will see an explosion of creativity from Protoss players which will help all P match-ups. Heck, Gateway units, Robo, Stargate, FF, Timewarp, Warpgates, Templars, Mamaship. What's not to love as P?
Terran is NOT complete in HotS. They have useless high tech . Most of the issues that limited the other races have been well changed in HotS so far. Terran not so much. There still no endgame army to tech to that doesn't need 4+Bases + lightyears of time. BC's are still way too bad for what the cost . Ravens again are very meh and need years of setup time before becoming effective. Ghosts are only a niche unit ( so are Reapers ) . They also still have at least 3 useless upgrades. The units nobody used in WoL will still not be used in HotS without changes.
I did not say there were complete in HoTS. Only that they were the most complete race in WOL and thus requiring the least attention. (DB said as much in an interview a few months ago.) Tbh, I don't see Terran needing major changes other than buffs to some of their higher tech. Ghosts need to be looked at though, I agree. I did not life the Ghost nerf, btw.
Give it time, mate. The beta has been stated to be a months long process. Positive changes to Terran will come.
Maybe you should just be happy for your P and Z brothers until that time comes? We will then rejoice with you.
I would say that terrans is the most complete race up to tier 2. Their late game units are pretty bleh and their production just cannot keep up with the other 2 races in the late game. Having some core units spread into 3 upgrade path also hurts (bio, mech, air).
There is the big issue for Terran in SC2: production.We still use the BW way, while Protoss have evolved to WARP and Zerg to Spawn Larvae.I agree its the most complete race,but only to tier 2.Later it becomes a nightmare.30 mins to make Ravens usefull and no limit to make BCs. Not only this,but as you said Upgrades research is another handicap.One for BIO,one for Ground and another for AIR.Carapace affect both Range and Melee Zergs.But they got Air,same as P and T.Protoss upgrades Gate and Robo units at same time.WHY???The Zerg caparace is understandable for every unit,but why Robo and Gate Units share upgrades?A stalker is a robotic unit,so as Immortal,sentry and Colossus,so it make sense,but then why Zealots share upgrads with them?A Marauder is almost robotic unit.Its a Suit,same as Iron Man,so why cant Tank and Marauder upgrades be the same?
Huh? What are you on about? Marines, probably the best all-around unit in the game, are built 2 at a time from Reactors. Same with Hellions, Medivacs, Vikings etc. All races have production boosts in their own respective ways. The only issue, from a Terran perspective, is Protoss warpgate when 200/200 and Zerg production capacity with Larvae Inject. Even then, Protoss WG only affects GW units and the Zealot remax from WOL is being countered with the addition of the Hellbat so that you hardly see Zealot heavy armies in HotS PvT anymore. (Unlike Zerg we don't get to warp our Robo and SG units.)
Secondly, Protoss upgrades have always been that way from SC1 onwards. Remember that Protoss defensive upgrades are shared between armour and shields. Shield upgrades are expensive (as they affect buildings too) and are rarely used in active PvX play due to their heavy costs. You usually only see them in the very late game, and when Protoss can afford them. This is why the basic Protoss ground army shares upgrades. It is also because Protoss armies are always synergistic and usually involve a mix of Robo and GW units. We can't go just GW or just Robo. Two upgrade paths on top of expensive units, expensive structures, and with the armour/shield divergence would be unaffordable and ineffective for any Protoss player.
I can get why you are peeved off. But your opinion here is just wrong.
Well,I was only thinking in Late Game.If you lose your army the best race on remaxing is the Zerg,then Protoss and then Terran.Marines use reactor,but it doesnt send them exactly where you wish on the opposit corner of the map,no?Its not only a issue,is a BIG ISSUE when the final battle is on.No matter if you got 4000mins and P 1000,he just remax so quick that you lose.
You are right.Protoss cant separate upgrades,but you still can go only GW units.Zealot,Sentry,Stalker into HT/Archons is totally possible and win lot of games.There is no strong need of Colossi or Immortals in every PvT.But let me ask you: How do T play vs Z?Bio upgrades+Tank or Viking Attack upgrades.Tanks for banelings and Vikings for BLs.Why cant Protoss do the same?If you wanna go Colossi in TvP go and research Attack upgrades in the Roboforge,because is almost the only Robo unit you will use in this MU.I wish to see TvP in WoL with Colossus without upgrades supporting the GW units.It will be the same as the tank for Terran,dont you think?
Terran can go Mech in TvZ,but only BIO is pretty hard because of infestors.
Yes, Protoss can. But every race has unique features that make it what it is in SC2. Tbh, I really don't see this as a major issue. We've had 2 years and more of WOL and it's not broken the match-up by any means. And now in HotS you have a unit that counters Zealots hard. It's difficult to really talk about this in any depth as what we are doing here is trying to analyse HotS beta by way of referring to our experience in WOL. This is hard to do because as the beta runs its course and HotS is released a whole new meta will arise and change as players explore the game (and Blizzard patches).
Gateway into Archon/HT is possible but is not a staple of Protoss play (for one thing, it is hard countered by Ghosts and is ineffective against Roach heavy armies). It is used sometimes depending on the MU but has usually got to be transitioned into the more standard Protoss composition which involves all the Protoss army. As for the Immortal and Colossus, these are needed not just in PvT but also in other P match-ups, no? More to the point, they are almost always needed. In no match up can a Protoss consistently put just a Gateway army onto the field, or just a Robo army into the field (unless I am playing 4v4 and go Robo+Colossus). And that is fine. Every race has strengths. Every race has weaknesses. Every race has constraints.
As to TvZ, I can't say mate. Again, referring to TvZ in WOL, I hope Terran continue to adapt and explore their race and to find solutions to their problems. (If anything, a nerf to Zerg may be required.) I don't believe looking at upgrades is the way to go though. That would be the easy "fix" (maybe) and require little innovation from Terran players. Small buffs to Terran high tech (+ ghost?) may be the nudge required, but anything more takes the satisfaction out of figuring problems in SC2. That's bad.
But, again, it's hard to see what any of this means with respect to HotS as it is too early to tell. This patch, here, is only the first day of, IIRC, the 4th or 5th patch of the Beta? With many months to go before release probably somewhere in the middle of 2013. Then the real discovery process of the game will begin again for all races. (And unlike last time, I hope Blizzard aren't trigger happy with the balance patches and let the players sort shit out themselves.)
It is hard to not be trigger happy when there are so many Competitive tournaments being played. Take the ghost nerf. Lets assume they did not nerf snipe and EMP. Could you know how long before Z and P to 'sort it out'. Does Blizzard wait 6 months and all the tournaments are won by Terran with ghosts?
Short answer, yes. I think one reason why we got so many balance patches in the first year of WOL was that, it seems, that the beta process was similar to this one (which is one thing that has me a little worried about the first year of HotS). And also because of the storm of whining from every race for Blizzard to fix various "issues". Now, some of those issues may have been valid, but it's likely that a good many were not. As a result a lot of vitality and dynamism was sucked out of WOL.
I'd hate to see the same for HotS. In the end we all want a good and fun game. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Edit/ Right, time for an early night. I'm running a half marathon at 7am tomorrow morning.
Protoss air lacks definition. Compare void ray pre nerf with the oracle now. A new capital sheep that has gotten more tweaking than another that has been in the game for 2+ years.
It will be nerfed but what impressed me most is its duraation. unlike storm or fungal or emp or anyother spell, it does not last as long as a combat or less. It just stays there! Which is the best part about it I say. it can assist a combat in very inderect ways. it has a lasting, zone manupilating effect (I dont wanna say area denial or control). not instant, not huge, but a cumulative one.
I hope when they nerf it, they nerf its snare amount, or radious not its duration.
also, I think it would be much more fun, and balanced to have it a sphrical shape as a size reduction. with long radia in axis with oracle.
On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote: What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it: Change Mine supply to 1 Build time cut by 1/4 Mine is destroyed when activated Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now.
Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game.
What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol.
He's playing the beta, you obviously aren't. He's correct in his assessment that the mines are what allow mech TvP to get running, and as the game goes into lategame you do not want more than 10 supply worth of mines on the map.
Mines in HOTS allow Terran to pour vespene gas into factory and armory infrastructure without flat out dying to: DTS, void rays, blink stalkers so easily like in wings of liberty.
You'll notice wings of liberty mech requires you to do crazy shit, like always make a starport, always need a raven, always need siege mode/tanks meaning you can never move out on the map, etc. When you're pouring 100 gas into a starport, 200 gas into a raven to protect vs DTS, 100 gas into an armory, 75 gas into vikings as the only realistic AA option...that's over 400-500 vespene gas dedicated to simply not dying to random all-ins and various things.
What the widow mine does in HOTS is give Terran users a reliable way to pour all of that wings of liberty vespene gas into factories, allowing more possibilities for mech play in the match-up.
As the game goes into the later stages, the mines become progressively weaker to the point where you want basically want no more than 4-5 mines on the map because they take away from your army value. Mines cannot fight against a lategame Protoss deathball of tempests + anything effectively.
The problem now is the same problem that exists in wings of liberty for Terran - there is no mech anti-air option. Right now the only real option is "make a lot of vikings," which is a catch-22 because zerg and protoss ground units absolutely kill grounded vikings meaning in the scenario you kill the opponent's air, you're left with a bad army that dies to the ground remax, or the situation where your vikings die to their air + storms/fungals...you simply die.
Sorry for the long post, just had to debunk your sensationalist bullshit about the mine being good lategame and OP with a logical post.
Keep in mind it's going to be really hard if not impossible for P to afford both Colossi and Oracles along with Templar until a ridicolous number of bases (like 4-5), so i'm not particularly concerned about PvT.
Also i wonder if the spine crawler change does anything about pre-hive timings in PvZ, since it should be harder for Z units to move around spines now....
I quite like the time warp spell, but why would you enhance the power of a deathball if you want move away from that? After all, you would only lure a death ball in to hit with time warps if you already have a sizeable deathball of your own... Rather than asking for a removal, I rather want "what do you give to the other two races to lessen the impact (soft counter)"?
Since the radius is as big as a vortex, I might as well ask for EMP to be that big as well (reduce energy/shield hit to 25 so at least 2 shots for zealot) as at that size protoss would be discouraged for the ball, and let Zerg's locust be uneffected (sac them for duration of the spell as a meat wall) so the ball would take longer to hit the zerg allowing them to walk out a bit.
This suggestion is ridiculous but the first point stands - what do you give to the other two to increase dynamics?
Over all, really nice changes. Maybe energize could be reinstated now, with the reason for its removal gone?
On October 27 2012 09:55 Noocta wrote: Well.. 100 energy Hunter seeker and 10 AtG damage BCs was getting me pretty exited at the beginning of beta. Then it got "fixed" because apparently Dustin Browder announce changes that are effectively bugs.
=(
To be honest it feels like those were intentional but blizzard realized that they needed to hold off with the WoL unit changes until they were done with the HotS units. Think of it. No other WoL units have been adressed yet. I think these "bugs", along with other wol unit changes, will be altered again.
On October 27 2012 17:18 wangstra wrote: Protoss air lacks definition. Compare void ray pre nerf with the oracle now. A new capital sheep that has gotten more tweaking than another that has been in the game for 2+ years.
Exactly, now the first spell is similar to voidray (rather fix that) and second one is similar to sentry (create/hold position purposes).
If there has to be a "beam spell", let it do something with energy, like Siphon Mana in WarCraft III: "Transfers mana between the Blood Mage and a target. Drains mana from an enemy, or transfers mana to an ally. Siphon Mana can push the Blood Mage's mana over its maximum value, though excess mana drains off rapidly if not used." This can be balanced just by changing numbers, but i don't know how much it would be imba in StarCraft II. :D
Second and third spells could be something like Sase suggested: - cloak targeted building for a while to prevent nexus sniping by terran and so on (or make armor/shields higher or whatever) - dispell vs summoned units could be cool too (broodlings, infested terrans)
On October 27 2012 18:51 cheative wrote: I quite like the time warp spell, but why would you enhance the power of a deathball if you want move away from that? After all, you would only lure a death ball in to hit with time warps if you already have a sizeable deathball of your own... Rather than asking for a removal, I rather want "what do you give to the other two races to lessen the impact (soft counter)"?
Since the radius is as big as a vortex, I might as well ask for EMP to be that big as well (reduce energy/shield hit to 25 so at least 2 shots for zealot) as at that size protoss would be discouraged for the ball, and let Zerg's locust be uneffected (sac them for duration of the spell as a meat wall) so the ball would take longer to hit the zerg allowing them to walk out a bit.
This suggestion is ridiculous but the first point stands - what do you give to the other two to increase dynamics?
I think Blizzard attempted to use 'harass' units that didn't go well with the deathball, in Protoss' case, not even having combat abilities. The issue with this is that we are required to invest in units that won't really help us survive against e.g. a timing push. All the other races' harass units have some sort of role in their deathball, either in the midgame or the lategame. E.g. medivac marines, are still a staple part of the Terran army, and can be flexible in the way that they can be used in almost all situations. Same applies for zerglings and infestors, and definately mutalisks.
Building 'pure' harass units doesn't only mean that the unit has to make an economical damage that equals the cost (like 150/150 for an oracle), but it also has to make up for the lost dynamics of another unit that could've been build in the same time, like the cost of a colossus (not saying that one oracle would equate to colossi, but it certainly would delay colossus tech by 300/300 resources.).
As for the dynamics question, I think the game already lends itself to decrease the efficiency of oracles in the lategame. Lategame isn't about mobility as much as it is about 'edging' out the opponents casters. You don't need to kite in TvP if you do your engagement correctly (given you have the optimal army). Same applies for PvZ lategame, it doesn't matter if you're slowing him down, unless your opponent does something increadibly stupid, you're not going to run into fungals and broodlings. I'm not as sure how it would work out in the midgame, but I think Time-Warp would just make players opt for more mobility, which would force the protoss to split up his army, hence, decreasing the efficiency of Time-warp and protoss midgame deathball in general. Regardless, I think players will have to adapt to fit the game better. Most likely, you're not going to be able to play in the exact same way as you've done before, when there is new units coming in. Luckily, Bio is so flexible and dynamic on its own, that I think that it'll still be a really efficient playstyle regardless of these new changes.
On October 27 2012 19:26 SirisH wrote: wow buffs for improvements for every race but zerg got a lot Still no Hots acces but are they that weak?
I'd not say zerg is weak in ZvP, but I only have 80 games and I'm still unranked. If anyone has figured out good strategies for protoss in HotS, could you please PM me? Thx
At 30 seconds duration AND a radius of 3,5 Time Warp is probably pretty OP. I havent seen it in action yet, but you probably can cast it preemptively and have enough for the whole battle ... and with that radius you dont need to spam it either like Forcefield. Since the Oracle is a flying unit you can also cast it behind your enemy army and prevent them from getting away ...
In most team games with different classes and units there are always "multiplier" classes/units which increase the efficiency of the other classes/units. The current version of the Oracle and Time Warp is just such a multiplier and it is worse than Fungal Growth and Forcefield IMO.
The Oracle is pretty fine now, I think honestly it's just that Terran needs some love to properly deal with it. Though we also have to see it unfold a bit first.
On October 27 2012 20:23 k1ruaa wrote: WOOOOOOHOOOO !!!
Awesome changes for terran as usual.......... Why they do not simply remove this race from the game?
You do realize they won't change a lot of old stuff until they feel like the new stuff is fine? What do you want them to do nerf mines?
First beta patch where I agree with every single change, looks good. Hopefully more people will try to make mech work now, because I can't see bio winning shit vs protoss with 3.5 radius time warp and storm.
I thought the UI update would come with this patch as well?
On October 27 2012 20:23 k1ruaa wrote: WOOOOOOHOOOO !!!
Awesome changes for terran as usual.......... Why they do not simply remove this race from the game?
Really? Really..? Is sarcasm the only thing you can bring to this forum? Have some constructive critizism instead.. Terran changes will come, don't worry. Like what has been stated before: Hots units first, then WoL units. Have some patience.. Furhermore, these changes are good all around, and if you can't see that, maybe you should crawl out of the fox-hole you're living in.
Oracle should be renamed into Void Sentry or Sentray though this might cause confusion. I want the Oracle to become the Collofestor though. 2 Lasers, a rooting skill and summoning Marines. But if the majority likes the changes it is fine I guess. Just hope they don't make the game to easy micro wise, when they tinker on the WoL units.
On October 27 2012 20:23 k1ruaa wrote: WOOOOOOHOOOO !!!
Awesome changes for terran as usual.......... Why they do not simply remove this race from the game?
Really? Really..? Is sarcasm the only thing you can bring to this forum? Have some constructive critizism instead.. Terran changes will come, don't worry. Like what has been stated before: Hots units first, then WoL units. Have some patience.. Furhermore, these changes are good all around, and if you can't see that, maybe you should crawl out of the fox-hole you're living in.
Constructive criticism is so hard, because the "right things to do" are pretty obvious and yet Blizzard refrains from doing them. So I can understand him in a way.
The game has structural problems even without the expansion units, but Blizzard either has no clue OR is unwilling to tackle them. - Deathballs are too efficient/dominant to allow for other tactics with spread out units to be efficient. - Production speed boosts limited to specific segments of the races make other segments less viable (mech, air for T/P). - Casuals are not really drawn into the game by the unwieldy custom map interface and lack of chat channels and so on ...
These general problems affect the way units can be balanced and this should be blatantly obvious to everyone who just compares BW and SC2. In the old game units were spread out and thus you didnt have tight deathballs with a super high damage output per area. This puts the advantage on the offensive player compared to BW where being defensive was equally viable. Thus balancing in SC2 has only a knife's edge width of room, while BW had a much wider limit to that due to the fact that the battles were much more drawn out and with fewer units.
So as long as Blizzard keeps on focusing on the wrong thing - like their stupid/funky units for the expansion - there can be nothing other than sarcasm applied to it. Looking at the many many many changes they made to the mothership core and other units so far shows that these units are very poorly designed and wont work well in SC2.
On October 27 2012 20:23 k1ruaa wrote: WOOOOOOHOOOO !!!
Awesome changes for terran as usual.......... Why they do not simply remove this race from the game?
You do realize they won't change a lot of old stuff until they feel like the new stuff is fine? What do you want them to do nerf mines?
First beta patch where I agree with every single change, looks good. Hopefully more people will try to make mech work now, because I can't see bio winning shit vs protoss with 3.5 radius time warp and storm.
Honestly why would a Terran even play Hots right now? Mech is even worse in mid/late game TvZ and TvP (protoss air being buffed a lot, no unit to deal with air to ground or ground to air tech switches, zerg and protoss early defense being buffed, roaches getting a powerful support to deal with tanks and terran late game being left untouched).
I don't want to whine too much but to the people saying that Terran doesn't need a lot of changes because it is the most balanced race in WOL that's just not true. There are clear holes: You have no reliable way of scouting Protoss transitions before medivacs which will be a huge problem when Protoss gets even more flexibility in HOTS, Raven transitions take too much time to be reliable, Tanks are too bad in WOL (which kind of gets better with hellbat support but this doesn't help tank marine styles which may just die off in HOTS completely), no way to dump gas against Protoss when playing MMMVG.
Of course there are holes, I do not disagree. But I think, given how it's really obvious right now that this beta will last atleast another 6 months,what they do is really smart. Look at the patch notes of all beta patches thus far, it's really obvious that they have no idea how each new unit is supposed to look like. And what they do is wait until they do, and then fix all the old problems.
Yes Terran needs work, but given how they removed the warhound and aren't brining it back, they can't do much until they actually start reworking all the wol stuff. And honestly I think your question why a terran would play hots is kinda dumb. If the only reason for one to play hots is to try out their own races new units, then yeah it's really meh. But both protoss and zerg do use their new stuff and mines do change 2/3rd of the matchups, so if you wanna play hots, you know because it's the expansion and all, then there are still good reasons for terrans to do so. You don't need to explain why MMMVG is bad, we all know, just be fucking patient they will fix it.
On October 27 2012 22:17 Lorch wrote: Of course there are holes, I do not disagree. But I think, given how it's really obvious right now that this beta will last atleast another 6 months,what they do is really smart. Look at the patch notes of all beta patches thus far, it's really obvious that they have no idea how each new unit is supposed to look like. And what they do is wait until they do, and then fix all the old problems.
Yes Terran needs work, but given how they removed the warhound and aren't brining it back, they can't do much until they actually start reworking all the wol stuff. And honestly I think your question why a terran would play hots is kinda dumb. If the only reason for one to play hots is to try out their own races new units, then yeah it's really meh. But both protoss and zerg do use their new stuff and mines do change 2/3rd of the matchups, so if you wanna play hots, you know because it's the expansion and all, then there are still good reasons for terrans to do so. You don't need to explain why MMMVG is bad, we all know, just be fucking patient they will fix it.
No, this approach isn't smart at all. We know the problems that exist in WOL so their approach should be to make the new units address these problems and make changes to the existing ones to fix those instead of adding in random new stuff while leaving everything else unchanged (which isn't even true since they made numerous adjustments to Zerg and Protoss early game defense and detection). The incentive to play the beta is not limited because there is not enough new stuff for terran to play with but that game play is narrowed down because they neglect to make changes to things that wouldn't interfere with their goal to focus on new units first making obviously needed adjustments like making the raven easier to access.
seriously though, the first thought that came to mind in the 'masters level usage' of positronium beam or whatever is anti-tech timings. Either loose your tech or get busted at the front Terran? Possibilities...
On October 27 2012 22:17 Lorch wrote: Of course there are holes, I do not disagree. But I think, given how it's really obvious right now that this beta will last atleast another 6 months,what they do is really smart. Look at the patch notes of all beta patches thus far, it's really obvious that they have no idea how each new unit is supposed to look like. And what they do is wait until they do, and then fix all the old problems.
Yes Terran needs work, but given how they removed the warhound and aren't brining it back, they can't do much until they actually start reworking all the wol stuff. And honestly I think your question why a terran would play hots is kinda dumb. If the only reason for one to play hots is to try out their own races new units, then yeah it's really meh. But both protoss and zerg do use their new stuff and mines do change 2/3rd of the matchups, so if you wanna play hots, you know because it's the expansion and all, then there are still good reasons for terrans to do so. You don't need to explain why MMMVG is bad, we all know, just be fucking patient they will fix it.
No, this approach isn't smart at all. We know the problems that exist in WOL so their approach should be to make the new units to address these problems and make changes to the existing ones to fix those instead of adding in random new stuff while leaving everything else unchanged (which isn't even true since they made numerous adjustments to Zerg and Protoss early game defense and detection). The incentive to play the beta is not limited because there is not enough new stuff for terran game play is narrowed down because they neglect to make changes to things that wouldn't interfere with their goal to focus on new units first like making obviously needed adjustments like making the raven easier to access.
I'm sorry but I can't even try to make sensee into your train of thoughts. Maybe you don't understand how game development works or maybe you don't understand what I wrote, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
changes are in the right direction, but still not spot on just yet. i feel the pulsar beam is a pointless ability, but the time warp shows great initiative for ground breaking new oppurtunities and strategy, but the pulsar beam makes oracle harass simply a paper voidray that gets shut down in moments by marines, spores, or queens, it doesnt really accomplish anything that a voidray cant do 100x better
With this, I really miss energize.. I've played a couple games as gm toss and I feel that this is just wol pvp all over again except with a couple more macro openings. But then again, we're at that situation where the matchup has become a coin flip..
I like squeezing zerglings and stuff between spines too. Severely nerfing ling-baneling aggression in the early game is imo to try to persuade players to leave the most exciting, micro intensive and volatile part of the zerg race. Lings and banelings inside someones main is fantastic. 1 baneling can kill infinity number of lings, 2 banelings can kill all drones or all banelings and speedlings can never be caught if microed. The excitement...
On October 27 2012 14:50 Destructicon wrote: I have no idea how people consider these changes good. Time warp + any aoe will be the end of anything, but especially terran bio. Time warp + FF to always land guaranteed and perfect FFs, also reduce the damage trapped units do to your army. Time warp + storm to basically not even allow bio to split or bait. Time warp + colossus and zealots to nullify bio ability to kite and guarantee huge splash.
I have no idea how they consider TW to be a good idea of a spell, bio already was having a hard time being cost effective against toss armies, now it will just flat out die. Mech will still be useless vs toss because tanks don't give proper zone control and are too easily countered by toss units and in addition mech now has to worry about tempests sniping from a distance. BCs are now equally useless, they already had enough counters via feedbacks from HT, void-ray threats and potential archon toilet, now they also have to face a relatively fast unit that can kite them and kill them with ease.
Problem with TW, also, it can't be fixed in any way, if you reduce the radius too much it becomes nearly useless, if you reduce duration too much it just encouraged making more oracles and spamming the spell, and reducing the speed reduction too much will also tilt the balance of the spell too much. Also a slow like this is ridiculous and stupid for a race that already has so much aoe, there is just no way TW can fit into this context, it just needs to go.
Pulsar beam seems kind of useless, any competent player should still have units in place to deny the harass. In all honesty entombed would have been a more interesting choice if it needed to target individual mineral patches and cost 25 energy per mineral patch, at least it would have taken more skill to use like that.
Viper worries me, I like the unit concept, its good and interesting, it does things no other unit does. However the synergy between Vipers and Infestors will be murderous, and I'm still appalled no one has pointed this out to Blizzard. Basically infestors root things in place while also damaging them, and viper reduces said units range to near 0, and with the units rooted in place, they can't escape the cloud.
Overall, I'm very worried with the direction Blizzard is going, it still feels like they have no clue what they are doing, just trowing ideas randomly out there without any thought as to the consequences of what these changes will do.
Wow. There seems to be a sensible person left right here.
I called it before and it is true now. These changes are arbitrary and ridiculous. Time Warp is a beyond insane ability.
On October 28 2012 00:06 AbideWithMe wrote: I called it before and it is true now. These changes are arbitrary and ridiculous. Time Warp is a beyond insane ability.
On the contrary, players were asking for this, and it was obvious that Blizzard was going to replace Void Siphon with an army support spell that did something like this. I didn't expect Entomb to be removed, but hey, that's even better. Sorry dude, but I don't see them reversing this decision.
On October 28 2012 00:06 AbideWithMe wrote: I called it before and it is true now. These changes are arbitrary and ridiculous. Time Warp is a beyond insane ability.
On the contrary, players were asking for this, and it was obvious that Blizzard was going to replace Void Siphon with an army support spell that did something like this. I didn't expect Entomb to be removed, but hey, that's even better. Sorry dude, but I don't see them reversing this decision.
XD I would literally bet about 300 dollars that Time Warp will be gone within the next two patches. Anybody willing to take this bet?
On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote: What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it: Change Mine supply to 1 Build time cut by 1/4 Mine is destroyed when activated Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now.
Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game.
What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol.
He's playing the beta, you obviously aren't. He's correct in his assessment that the mines are what allow mech TvP to get running, and as the game goes into lategame you do not want more than 10 supply worth of mines on the map.
Mines in HOTS allow Terran to pour vespene gas into factory and armory infrastructure without flat out dying to: DTS, void rays, blink stalkers so easily like in wings of liberty.
You'll notice wings of liberty mech requires you to do crazy shit, like always make a starport, always need a raven, always need siege mode/tanks meaning you can never move out on the map, etc. When you're pouring 100 gas into a starport, 200 gas into a raven to protect vs DTS, 100 gas into an armory, 75 gas into vikings as the only realistic AA option...that's over 400-500 vespene gas dedicated to simply not dying to random all-ins and various things.
What the widow mine does in HOTS is give Terran users a reliable way to pour all of that wings of liberty vespene gas into factories, allowing more possibilities for mech play in the match-up.
As the game goes into the later stages, the mines become progressively weaker to the point where you want basically want no more than 4-5 mines on the map because they take away from your army value. Mines cannot fight against a lategame Protoss deathball of tempests + anything effectively.
The problem now is the same problem that exists in wings of liberty for Terran - there is no mech anti-air option. Right now the only real option is "make a lot of vikings," which is a catch-22 because zerg and protoss ground units absolutely kill grounded vikings meaning in the scenario you kill the opponent's air, you're left with a bad army that dies to the ground remax, or the situation where your vikings die to their air + storms/fungals...you simply die.
Sorry for the long post, just had to debunk your sensationalist bullshit about the mine being good lategame and OP with a logical post.
Thanks for elaborating on my point a lot better than I ever could as I'm not a Terran player lol. I do hope Terran gets some good mech AA options, though. I would love to have some epic PvT mech wars.
On October 28 2012 00:06 AbideWithMe wrote: I called it before and it is true now. These changes are arbitrary and ridiculous. Time Warp is a beyond insane ability.
On the contrary, players were asking for this, and it was obvious that Blizzard was going to replace Void Siphon with an army support spell that did something like this. I didn't expect Entomb to be removed, but hey, that's even better. Sorry dude, but I don't see them reversing this decision.
XD I would literally bet about 300 dollars that Time Warp will be gone within the next two patches. Anybody willing to take this bet?
Gone? No way, it's a a good spell and fits well. Nerfed? Hell yes
On October 28 2012 00:06 AbideWithMe wrote: I called it before and it is true now. These changes are arbitrary and ridiculous. Time Warp is a beyond insane ability.
On the contrary, players were asking for this, and it was obvious that Blizzard was going to replace Void Siphon with an army support spell that did something like this. I didn't expect Entomb to be removed, but hey, that's even better. Sorry dude, but I don't see them reversing this decision.
XD I would literally bet about 300 dollars that Time Warp will be gone within the next two patches. Anybody willing to take this bet?
This isn't Warhound that is just plain stupid, it is Time Warp, design of the ability is actually quite cool, if it is overpowered, they may nerf it, but design is good, since it can be used for slowing down the mining, and can support your army, it opens up a lot of possibilities for you to play it, and it is really good in a lot of different situations, majority of players like it, so no, they won't remove it. They will probably nerf it, lower the duration, higher energy cost, lower the slow %, etc etc., but no, I can't see it being removed, since community is quite happy with it.
And funny how everybody was saying how Pulsar Beam is useless, and I just watched Husky's video, it does crazy amount of damage in no time. One Oracle can snipe down Pylons pretty fast, and can always retreat when enemy comes for it, and come back later. Two Oracles are destroying Supply Depots, and add-ons.
On October 27 2012 22:17 Lorch wrote: Of course there are holes, I do not disagree. But I think, given how it's really obvious right now that this beta will last atleast another 6 months,what they do is really smart. Look at the patch notes of all beta patches thus far, it's really obvious that they have no idea how each new unit is supposed to look like. And what they do is wait until they do, and then fix all the old problems.
Yes Terran needs work, but given how they removed the warhound and aren't brining it back, they can't do much until they actually start reworking all the wol stuff. And honestly I think your question why a terran would play hots is kinda dumb. If the only reason for one to play hots is to try out their own races new units, then yeah it's really meh. But both protoss and zerg do use their new stuff and mines do change 2/3rd of the matchups, so if you wanna play hots, you know because it's the expansion and all, then there are still good reasons for terrans to do so. You don't need to explain why MMMVG is bad, we all know, just be fucking patient they will fix it.
No, this approach isn't smart at all. We know the problems that exist in WOL so their approach should be to make the new units to address these problems and make changes to the existing ones to fix those instead of adding in random new stuff while leaving everything else unchanged (which isn't even true since they made numerous adjustments to Zerg and Protoss early game defense and detection). The incentive to play the beta is not limited because there is not enough new stuff for terran game play is narrowed down because they neglect to make changes to things that wouldn't interfere with their goal to focus on new units first like making obviously needed adjustments like making the raven easier to access.
I'm sorry but I can't even try to make sensee into your train of thoughts. Maybe you don't understand how game development works or maybe you don't understand what I wrote, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
How does game design work in your opinion? Shouldn't an expansion address the things that were wrong with the original game? Shouldn't there be a connection between the changes and what a race actually needs to make their strategies work rather than adding in stuff that has no direct relation to what is being needed.
On October 28 2012 00:06 AbideWithMe wrote: I called it before and it is true now. These changes are arbitrary and ridiculous. Time Warp is a beyond insane ability.
On the contrary, players were asking for this, and it was obvious that Blizzard was going to replace Void Siphon with an army support spell that did something like this. I didn't expect Entomb to be removed, but hey, that's even better. Sorry dude, but I don't see them reversing this decision.
XD I would literally bet about 300 dollars that Time Warp will be gone within the next two patches. Anybody willing to take this bet?
This isn't Warhound that is just plain stupid, it is Time Warp, design of the ability is actually quite cool, if it is overpowered, they may nerf it, but design is good, since it can be used for slowing down the mining, and can support your army, it opens up a lot of possibilities for you to play it, and it is really good in a lot of different situations, majority of players like it, so no, they won't remove it. They will probably nerf it, lower the duration, higher energy cost, lower the slow %, etc etc., but no, I can't see it being removed, since community is quite happy with it.
And funny how everybody was saying how Pulsar Beam is useless, and I just watched Husky's video, it does crazy amount of damage in no time. One Oracle can snipe down Pylons pretty fast, and can always retreat when enemy comes for it, and come back later. Two Oracles are destroying Supply Depots, and add-ons.
Here lies the problem with patches. There are less Terran players than Protoss/Zerg players, whether this is due to constant nerfs or lategame being impossible or terran simply being bland or w/e that's besides the point for now and not what this post is about, but I think everyone agrees that there is a lack of terrans at the moment. On the ladder, on teamliquid, in every single tournament save GSL code S.
As a result, whenever a Terran buff is announced the community will go apeshit as >70% of the players isn't Terran and doesn't want the buff to happen.
So Terran doesn't get buffs and even more people stop playing Terran, cycle repeats itself.
At some point the Protoss/Zerg players will realise that they have to support Terran buffs to save this game. What Terran gets in HotS at the moment is a complete joke. The reaper changes only affect TvT, which was a good matchup before but has now turned into freaking reaper wars. The mine is a novelty but doesn't help in the lategame at all. Hellbat has some uses, but doesn't make mech any more viable.
The warhound was necessary. Much more so than fucking timewarp. Tweak some values if it's broken but ffs don't take it out of the game -_-
On October 27 2012 10:31 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Thor, BC, ghost and Raven deathball Is fu*ked vs. tempest/oracle. The Terran deathball can be kited to death...
Time Warp doesn't affect air so doesn't affect BCs... if you're a BC kinda guy.
No, but any ground cover for us either marines or thors are now useless as escorts. We'd need to have vikings AND micro them well to avoid the escorts from being hit with TW and/or feedback.
I pretty much just am killing Zerg now with 3 oracles and 1 voidray and the mothership core for recall. Rushing toward that, skipping warpgate completely;
Finally! They told us they were making the new units very strong in order to encourage lots of playtesting. Then they proceeded make the toss units unbelievably bad. Finally they have figured out how to do it with the Oracle and Tempest. Just add Energize back in for the Mothership Core and it'll be great!
Overall a very good patch. I feel like the oracle starts to get interesting. We really have to pay attention to Timewarp. I feel like it is an interesting idea, but maybe the synergys with the deathball might be to strong...
I also don't see why TW and FF can't work together, you slow units to make sure they can't escape or dance around the edge of FF range and then you FF them, you then aoe them down with either storm or colossus, and even with zealots and stalkers it is effective because TW doesn't slow your own units.
Good players don't need TW to land FF. Seriously, how often do you see a pro Protoss with Sentries with energy, and NOT land perfect FFs?
TW to land FFs is a crutch for weak players. If units are FFed and cant move where they want to, TW is utterly wasted. And if they're Timewarped, you don't NEED forcefield.
TW and FF have the worst synergy of pretty much any spells in the game because they overlap so much.
Tell me, if you have Sentries with Energy, why would you ever rather have an Oracle rather than spending that money on units that can actually kill shit? And if you have Oracles, you don't want Sentries, you want Zealots, Stalkers and later HTs and Colossi to take maximum advantage of TW.
The whole "oh noes, Protoss already has FF and now they get TW too!!!111!" crying is just bizarrely wrongheaded. The two spells simply do not work that well together at all. 90% of the time when you have FF, you don't need TW, and with TW you're better off getting units that can't take advantage of it to kill shit effectively.
On October 28 2012 00:06 AbideWithMe wrote: I called it before and it is true now. These changes are arbitrary and ridiculous. Time Warp is a beyond insane ability.
On the contrary, players were asking for this, and it was obvious that Blizzard was going to replace Void Siphon with an army support spell that did something like this. I didn't expect Entomb to be removed, but hey, that's even better. Sorry dude, but I don't see them reversing this decision.
XD I would literally bet about 300 dollars that Time Warp will be gone within the next two patches. Anybody willing to take this bet?
Me. 100%. Lets paypal this shit. I could use 300 bucks.
Blizzard likes Timewarp. The community response to TW has been overwhelmingly positive. It may be too strong currently, but knowing Blizzard they will definitely spend multiple patches trying to get the balance right before doing any fundamental redesign. TW is likely here to stay in some form, but if it isn't it is definitely not going to be gone within 2 patches--fucking entomb lasted 6 patches.
C'mon lets do this. I could really use your money.
The oracle has been really fun to play with. I haven't even bothered playing P in beta until they added the pulsar beam.
And tbh, at this moment I really don't care about balance. Both the silly new widow mine and the new oracle are fun to play with and against. That is what the game needed imo.
On October 28 2012 00:06 AbideWithMe wrote: I called it before and it is true now. These changes are arbitrary and ridiculous. Time Warp is a beyond insane ability.
On the contrary, players were asking for this, and it was obvious that Blizzard was going to replace Void Siphon with an army support spell that did something like this. I didn't expect Entomb to be removed, but hey, that's even better. Sorry dude, but I don't see them reversing this decision.
XD I would literally bet about 300 dollars that Time Warp will be gone within the next two patches. Anybody willing to take this bet?
I'll take that bet. Though not for money
I think it will stay in the game because blizzard finally realized that they have to make the game more interesting. The spider mines and the blinding cloud and the timewarp all have the same idea. A superstrong ability that is hard to counter and can totally change the outcomes of battles and yet is not all powerful.
I think if they go with this philosophy the game will take longer to balance but the end result will be much more interesting to play.
Oh and I can tell you the oracle pulsar beam is so fucking kick-ass. Advantages over the void ray: - Speed - Nothing can catch the oracle, get in destroy a few buildings, get out before anyone can react - no charge up delay - isntant high damage - cheaper - faster to build - has reveal and time warp
going void ray was risky thing before, going oracle is already a much easier decision to make, since you don't only get harrass ability but also defensive boosts for your gateway army (time warp) AND nice scouting with reveal.
At the same time it dies SO FAST that only good player will really be able to use it. It's the perfect protoss unit IMHO.
Timewarp will probably change a lot until release but I think this time they'll keep it. It's a perfect alternative to sentries.
Also I just want to mention again that using an army with more than 2 caster types is really almost impossible. especially casting time warp and ff at the same time is so hard that people will rarely do it. Plus the gas costs for too many different casters will be too high.
On a side note: anyone in EU beta Hots up for some team games?
Please tell me how this makes the game anymore interesting for Terrans. Interesting in the sense of frustrating and "Fuck why toss so op" and for zerg it will be more interesting in the sense of building mutas or fast infestor every single game because otherwise you die to oracles either through harass or this crazy time warp crap. So yeah PvP is definitely going to be more interesting. and it will be really interesting to see if we ever see a terran in the ladder again.
On October 27 2012 05:38 Lithian wrote: Problem with the pulsar beam is that it only causes real harassment damage to Terran and even then few well placed missile turrets can nullify the threat. Even thought Oracle is fast enough to probably dodge those turrets, it'd require too much attention and control to cause meaningful damage.
Then again, no ones tried this new ability yet, and that's just theory crafting. I'm sure someone will find some really cool use for it. So give some time eh?
thank god they removed entomb. what were they smoking when they came up with that ability?! the only way economy should be interrupted/disrupted is by killing/endangering workers
also, i think time warp will be good support for carriers vs mass marines
On October 28 2012 00:06 AbideWithMe wrote: I called it before and it is true now. These changes are arbitrary and ridiculous. Time Warp is a beyond insane ability.
On the contrary, players were asking for this, and it was obvious that Blizzard was going to replace Void Siphon with an army support spell that did something like this. I didn't expect Entomb to be removed, but hey, that's even better. Sorry dude, but I don't see them reversing this decision.
XD I would literally bet about 300 dollars that Time Warp will be gone within the next two patches. Anybody willing to take this bet?
Me. 100%. Lets paypal this shit. I could use 300 bucks.
Blizzard likes Timewarp. The community response to TW has been overwhelmingly positive. It may be too strong currently, but knowing Blizzard they will definitely spend multiple patches trying to get the balance right before doing any fundamental redesign. TW is likely here to stay in some form, but if it isn't it is definitely not going to be gone within 2 patches--fucking entomb lasted 6 patches.
C'mon lets do this. I could really use your money.
Hahaha. Time warp will most likely stay this time, I think they got it right :D. But it is too powerful of a spell that makes a difference in engagements.
Against Zerg, Time Warp works well because it is effective enough to make a difference in battle. Against of the overall unit composition of mass zerglings/infestor etc., Zerg is kind of meant to mass and can move quickly out of range, but good storms and blink can still do a lot of damage. But microing bio units / moving mech that are under the spell are just bound to die to storm or colossus. Overall it is a useful and good spell that should exist, but not with the effectiveness of radius/delay of movement speed it has. This is a spellcaster unit that adds to the Protoss ball of death, so it should be used wisely-- not click and cover the terran mass to give Protoss the mindset of: "Alright it's landed so I can attack now with good confidence". If Protoss were to achieve a situation with oracle, templar and colossus, it would be a uphill battle to engage. Not sure how it works PvP o.o.
On October 27 2012 05:38 Lithian wrote: Problem with the pulsar beam is that it only causes real harassment damage to Terran and even then few well placed missile turrets can nullify the threat. Even thought Oracle is fast enough to probably dodge those turrets, it'd require too much attention and control to cause meaningful damage.
Then again, no ones tried this new ability yet, and that's just theory crafting. I'm sure someone will find some really cool use for it. So give some time eh?
Since it has 5 range and the Oracle can't attack every single Marine/Queen/Stalker should be able to deny it from doing much. Of course the numbers can change, but at the state it is now it seems pretty obsolete.
Pulsar Beam is better than I thought, I reckoned it would be all about Time Warp, but nah.
Now the neglected spell is Revelation. I think it should cost 50 energy, or it will always take away from the more powerful abilities. Or it should be more useful somehow. Also, I think that the names of Envision and Revelation should be switched.
On October 28 2012 04:40 Crawdad wrote: Pulsar Beam is better than I thought, I reckoned it would be all about Time Warp, but nah.
Now the neglected spell is Revelation. I think it should cost 50 energy, or it will always take away from the more powerful abilities. Or it should be more useful somehow. Also, I think that the names of Envision and Revelation should be switched.
they said revelation is a late game minded spell to track army movements
Gotta say I like the way blizzard seem to be converging on a set of units everyone's going to want to use. Blinding cloud should be the spell that makes it possible to nerf infestors without ending zerg's game at the 14 minute mark, the oracle is going to make Protoss fucking annoying, just as they should be, and Terrans finally have a better version of the baneling, just like they have a better version of everything else
Seriously though, it feels like hots finally has some direction and purpose. I think swarm hosts.might need a tweak, and it would be awesome if hydra got more love, but it's looking good for the first time in a while.
On October 28 2012 04:54 Umpteen wrote: Gotta say I like the way blizzard seem to be converging on a set of units everyone's going to want to use. Blinding cloud should be the spell that makes it possible to nerf infestors without ending zerg's game at the 14 minute mark, the oracle is going to make Protoss fucking annoying, just as they should be, and Terrans finally have a better version of the baneling, just like they have a better version of everything else
Seriously though, it feels like hots finally has some direction and purpose. I think swarm hosts.might need a tweak, and it would be awesome if hydra got more love, but it's looking good for the first time in a while.
It's certainly making everything more exciting. Terran really needs some good mech AA other than Vikings, though. That's the last thing that really stands out to me so far about HotS. Everything else has been pretty good or at least interesting for the last couple patches, now. I'm excited :D
I must say, chargelot openings in PvT and PvP are BRUTAL now with timewarp. I really think it might get changed, but I honestly think they should keep it in, and in the same state and allow players to adjust to it's presence, unlike how they got rid of warhound. It is such an awesome spell that has basic uses at low levels (casting it over MMM and a-moving chargelots) and a lot of potential in high level play, especially combining it with other casters.
Even after one or two games with the new patch I was having to totally re-work my hotkey setup, especially for late-game. Trying to tab through sentries, templar, oracles, phoenixes, colossus, tempests, blink stalkers, warp prisms, observers in a battle is just laughable, but the multi-hotkey use is something that is definitely putting a high skill cap on getting the most out of the Protoss army. I LOVE IT. Even if I can't execute it perfectly, when I DO get off that TW->Storm->FF combo it is SO satisfying. Can't wait to see some games of Whitera, Grubby and other beta-ing Pro's to start wrecking shop with this stuff.
On October 28 2012 04:37 mishimaBeef wrote: can we get some videos of an oracle harassing an enemy base and also of time warp being cast during a big battle?
yea i would like to see a casted replay or something like this as well. i honestly just dont see pulsar beam being very effective against a good opponent. maybe im wrong and it is pretty good but i think it would be better if the oracle could attack units as well(with lower dps of course).
Wow, i think it's (one of) the first times the patch has unanimously been accepted via polls. Great job by blizzard imo. I agree with most of it, if not all of it.
I would be excited about these changes if they weren't ignoring all the other fundamental problems with the game. They're focusing way too much on new units and abilities when they should be focusing on the core mechanics being so inferior to brood war's.
More micro-ability for units is what we need. The game will practically balance itself if that is done.
On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote: What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it: Change Mine supply to 1 Build time cut by 1/4 Mine is destroyed when activated Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now.
Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game.
What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol.
He's playing the beta, you obviously aren't. He's correct in his assessment that the mines are what allow mech TvP to get running, and as the game goes into lategame you do not want more than 10 supply worth of mines on the map.
Mines in HOTS allow Terran to pour vespene gas into factory and armory infrastructure without flat out dying to: DTS, void rays, blink stalkers so easily like in wings of liberty.
You'll notice wings of liberty mech requires you to do crazy shit, like always make a starport, always need a raven, always need siege mode/tanks meaning you can never move out on the map, etc. When you're pouring 100 gas into a starport, 200 gas into a raven to protect vs DTS, 100 gas into an armory, 75 gas into vikings as the only realistic AA option...that's over 400-500 vespene gas dedicated to simply not dying to random all-ins and various things.
What the widow mine does in HOTS is give Terran users a reliable way to pour all of that wings of liberty vespene gas into factories, allowing more possibilities for mech play in the match-up.
As the game goes into the later stages, the mines become progressively weaker to the point where you want basically want no more than 4-5 mines on the map because they take away from your army value. Mines cannot fight against a lategame Protoss deathball of tempests + anything effectively.
The problem now is the same problem that exists in wings of liberty for Terran - there is no mech anti-air option. Right now the only real option is "make a lot of vikings," which is a catch-22 because zerg and protoss ground units absolutely kill grounded vikings meaning in the scenario you kill the opponent's air, you're left with a bad army that dies to the ground remax, or the situation where your vikings die to their air + storms/fungals...you simply die.
Sorry for the long post, just had to debunk your sensationalist bullshit about the mine being good lategame and OP with a logical post.
I never thought it would happen, but i think i agree with you here.
While i do think vikings are reasonable (but very hard) anti air for mech, i'd really love to see another anti-air option for mech. Maybe not much stronger, but one that fits the composition better. Maybe a viking change could be an answer for that as well.
On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote: What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it: Change Mine supply to 1 Build time cut by 1/4 Mine is destroyed when activated Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now.
Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game.
What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol.
He's playing the beta, you obviously aren't. He's correct in his assessment that the mines are what allow mech TvP to get running, and as the game goes into lategame you do not want more than 10 supply worth of mines on the map.
Mines in HOTS allow Terran to pour vespene gas into factory and armory infrastructure without flat out dying to: DTS, void rays, blink stalkers so easily like in wings of liberty.
You'll notice wings of liberty mech requires you to do crazy shit, like always make a starport, always need a raven, always need siege mode/tanks meaning you can never move out on the map, etc. When you're pouring 100 gas into a starport, 200 gas into a raven to protect vs DTS, 100 gas into an armory, 75 gas into vikings as the only realistic AA option...that's over 400-500 vespene gas dedicated to simply not dying to random all-ins and various things.
What the widow mine does in HOTS is give Terran users a reliable way to pour all of that wings of liberty vespene gas into factories, allowing more possibilities for mech play in the match-up.
As the game goes into the later stages, the mines become progressively weaker to the point where you want basically want no more than 4-5 mines on the map because they take away from your army value. Mines cannot fight against a lategame Protoss deathball of tempests + anything effectively.
The problem now is the same problem that exists in wings of liberty for Terran - there is no mech anti-air option. Right now the only real option is "make a lot of vikings," which is a catch-22 because zerg and protoss ground units absolutely kill grounded vikings meaning in the scenario you kill the opponent's air, you're left with a bad army that dies to the ground remax, or the situation where your vikings die to their air + storms/fungals...you simply die.
Sorry for the long post, just had to debunk your sensationalist bullshit about the mine being good lategame and OP with a logical post.
I never thought it would happen, but i think i agree with you here.
While i do think vikings are reasonable (but very hard) anti air for mech, i'd really love to see another anti-air option for mech. Maybe not much stronger, but one that fits the composition better. Maybe a viking change could be an answer for that as well.
Wouldn't a +armor/massive tag for Thor anti-air be enough? I know Tempests have stupid long range, but with whatever unit you theorycraft, i'm certain it wouldn't have 16 range to hit the Tempest. Thor would then be good vs Broodlords as well.
On October 28 2012 05:03 Kommatiazo wrote: I must say, chargelot openings in PvT and PvP are BRUTAL now with timewarp. I really think it might get changed, but I honestly think they should keep it in, and in the same state and allow players to adjust to it's presence, unlike how they got rid of warhound. It is such an awesome spell that has basic uses at low levels (casting it over MMM and a-moving chargelots) and a lot of potential in high level play, especially combining it with other casters.
Even after one or two games with the new patch I was having to totally re-work my hotkey setup, especially for late-game. Trying to tab through sentries, templar, oracles, phoenixes, colossus, tempests, blink stalkers, warp prisms, observers in a battle is just laughable, but the multi-hotkey use is something that is definitely putting a high skill cap on getting the most out of the Protoss army. I LOVE IT. Even if I can't execute it perfectly, when I DO get off that TW->Storm->FF combo it is SO satisfying. Can't wait to see some games of Whitera, Grubby and other beta-ing Pro's to start wrecking shop with this stuff.
Man, I agree about the hotkey stuff. Really gonna have to keep Mothership Core off my main army hotkey as it overrides sentry spells/blink for priority. I already use a bunch of extra ones for multiple observers/HT/warp prisms/air units. Time to add one more!!! lol
On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote: What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it: Change Mine supply to 1 Build time cut by 1/4 Mine is destroyed when activated Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now.
Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game.
What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol.
He's playing the beta, you obviously aren't. He's correct in his assessment that the mines are what allow mech TvP to get running, and as the game goes into lategame you do not want more than 10 supply worth of mines on the map.
Mines in HOTS allow Terran to pour vespene gas into factory and armory infrastructure without flat out dying to: DTS, void rays, blink stalkers so easily like in wings of liberty.
You'll notice wings of liberty mech requires you to do crazy shit, like always make a starport, always need a raven, always need siege mode/tanks meaning you can never move out on the map, etc. When you're pouring 100 gas into a starport, 200 gas into a raven to protect vs DTS, 100 gas into an armory, 75 gas into vikings as the only realistic AA option...that's over 400-500 vespene gas dedicated to simply not dying to random all-ins and various things.
What the widow mine does in HOTS is give Terran users a reliable way to pour all of that wings of liberty vespene gas into factories, allowing more possibilities for mech play in the match-up.
As the game goes into the later stages, the mines become progressively weaker to the point where you want basically want no more than 4-5 mines on the map because they take away from your army value. Mines cannot fight against a lategame Protoss deathball of tempests + anything effectively.
The problem now is the same problem that exists in wings of liberty for Terran - there is no mech anti-air option. Right now the only real option is "make a lot of vikings," which is a catch-22 because zerg and protoss ground units absolutely kill grounded vikings meaning in the scenario you kill the opponent's air, you're left with a bad army that dies to the ground remax, or the situation where your vikings die to their air + storms/fungals...you simply die.
Sorry for the long post, just had to debunk your sensationalist bullshit about the mine being good lategame and OP with a logical post.
I never thought it would happen, but i think i agree with you here.
While i do think vikings are reasonable (but very hard) anti air for mech, i'd really love to see another anti-air option for mech. Maybe not much stronger, but one that fits the composition better. Maybe a viking change could be an answer for that as well.
Wouldn't a +armor/massive tag for Thor anti-air be enough? I know Tempests have stupid long range, but with whatever unit you theorycraft, i'm certain it wouldn't have 16 range to hit the Tempest. Thor would then be good vs Broodlords as well.
The problem is that you need a mech AA unit that can also support against ground attacks, and one that you can mass reliably. Thors do decent vs Air in some cases, ok vs ground, but their supply/cost really makes it hard to justify building a lot of them.
Obviously, something like the Goliath would be perfect, here, but I also don't really want Blizzard to just port that unit into HotS.
While i do think vikings are reasonable (but very hard) anti air for mech, i'd really love to see another anti-air option for mech. Maybe not much stronger, but one that fits the composition better. Maybe a viking change could be an answer for that as well.
2 extremely simple changes would make Mech 100% viable in TvP:
1.) Siege Tanks deal +25% damage vs shields. 2.) Ground Viking attack changed from 1 attack at 12 damage, to 2 attacks at 7 damage each. In additional, Landed Vikings benefit from mech upgrades rather than air upgrades (in the air they'd still count as air units, similar to how Hellions shift between bio and mech).
The first change substantially increases overall Tank viability vs. Protoss without altering in any way their performance in TvT and TvZ. Now directly engaging a clump of sieged tanks becomes a very bad idea for Protoss ground, which is how it should be. Also, Tanks are no longer super hard-countered by Archons.
The second change makes Landed Vikings an effective counter to Immortal Hardened shields--since 7 damage is below the hardened shield threshold, both attacks will hit at full value, similar to how Zealots work against Immortals. By partially scaling with mech upgrades, Vikings can be more easily incorporated into mech compositions. And unlike marines, landed vikings have equal range to Immortals.
These two straightforward fixes would solve the biggest issues with TvP mech currently--namely that Terran mech doesn't do enough damage vs Toss in a straight fight to justify the huge mobility tradeoff, and that Toss has easy access to extremely hard counters on the ground in Immortals and Archons. Yet they would have minimal effect on other matchups. Combined with Hellbats to kill Chargelots, Mech would be fully capable of beating a Protoss deathball in a straight-up fight, forcing Protoss to rely more on mobility advantages, which is really how it should be.
With Timewarp now in the game, mass bio is not going to be that great in lategame, because bio dies instantly if you can't kite effectively (on the other hand, Timewarp does literally nothing vs sieged tanks and well-positioned hellbats and mines, since they aren't really moving much during fights anyway). Personally, as someone who fucking hates giant bioballs and would much prefer to see Mech as the go-to lategame comp in TvP, I think this is a good thing. But the flip side is if you're improving Toss vs. bio, you HAVE to make mech viable, or Terran will simply lose constantly in TvP.
I think basically everyone, both Terran and Protoss, would rather Terran play a more mech-oriented style in TvP. Bio is cool in early game and even in the midgame, but immense clumps of units endlessly kiting just does not make for fun gameplay or spectating in lategame. Timewarp partially "fixes" this by nerfing giant bioballs vs Toss pretty hard...but in exchange, Mech needs a substantial buff. If Blizzard wants to jump through hoops making a new unit that fixes Mech in TVP, that isn't total shit like the Warhound was, they're welcome to. But personally I think they have everything they need to fix mech already in the game, they just need to tweak the numbers a bit.
^ Doesn't solve the anti-air issues, and chargelots will still eat through mech because of friendly fire tank splash. Also lol at viking ground mode being the counter to immortals.
While i do think vikings are reasonable (but very hard) anti air for mech, i'd really love to see another anti-air option for mech. Maybe not much stronger, but one that fits the composition better. Maybe a viking change could be an answer for that as well.
2 extremely simple changes would make Mech 100% viable in TvP:
1.) Siege Tanks deal +25% damage vs shields. 2.) Ground Viking attack changed from 1 attack at 12 damage, to 2 attacks at 7 damage each. In additional, Landed Vikings benefit from mech upgrades rather than air upgrades (in the air they'd still count as air units, similar to how Hellions shift between bio and mech).
The first change substantially increases overall Tank viability vs. Protoss without altering in any way their performance in TvT and TvZ. Now directly engaging a clump of sieged tanks becomes a very bad idea for Protoss ground, which is how it should be. Also, Tanks are no longer super hard-countered by Archons.
The second change makes Landed Vikings an effective counter to Immortal Hardened shields--since 7 damage is below the hardened shield threshold, both attacks will hit at full value, similar to how Zealots work against Immortals. By partially scaling with mech upgrades, Vikings can be more easily incorporated into mech compositions. And unlike marines, landed vikings have equal range to Immortals.
These two straightforward fixes would solve the biggest issues with TvP mech currently--namely that Terran mech doesn't do enough damage vs Toss in a straight fight to justify the huge mobility tradeoff, and that Toss has easy access to extremely hard counters on the ground in Immortals and Archons. Yet they would have minimal effect on other matchups. Combined with Hellbats to kill Chargelots, Mech would be fully capable of beating a Protoss deathball in a straight-up fight, forcing Protoss to rely more on mobility advantages, which is really how it should be.
With Timewarp now in the game, mass bio is not going to be that great in lategame, because bio dies instantly if you can't kite effectively (on the other hand, Timewarp does literally nothing vs sieged tanks and well-positioned hellbats and mines, since they aren't really moving much during fights anyway). Personally, as someone who fucking hates giant bioballs and would much prefer to see Mech as the go-to lategame comp in TvP, I think this is a good thing. But the flip side is if you're improving Toss vs. bio, you HAVE to make mech viable, or Terran will simply lose constantly in TvP.
I think basically everyone, both Terran and Protoss, would rather Terran play a more mech-oriented style in TvP. Bio is cool in early game and even in the midgame, but immense clumps of units endlessly kiting just does not make for fun gameplay or spectating in lategame. Timewarp partially "fixes" this by nerfing giant bioballs vs Toss pretty hard...but in exchange, Mech needs a substantial buff. If Blizzard wants to jump through hoops making a new unit that fixes Mech in TVP, that isn't total shit like the Warhound was, they're welcome to. But personally I think they have everything they need to fix mech already in the game, they just need to tweak the numbers a bit.
I wouldn't agree with both changes you mentioned, I would be ok with one or the other, strongly being in favor of the second option. Any way to give reliable AA that doesn't also detract too horribly from the ground army is the way to fix mech, IMO.
I do agree that mech is just a couple tweaks away from being pretty solid, there's no real need for a new unit. Widow Mines and Hellbats added all that Terran needed for the ground portion, it's just the AA that needs a solution.
On October 28 2012 06:08 Laurens wrote: ^ Doesn't solve the anti-air issues, and chargelots will still eat through mech because of friendly fire tank splash. Also lol at viking ground mode being the counter to immortals.
...did you even read the post?
Vikings are amazing AA, it's just that right now they take away way too much from the ground army. What he proposed goes a long way towards fixing that problem. Chargelot effectiveness vs mech is GREATLY reduced with addition of blueflame Hellbats.
And, yes, 2 attacks at 7 damage each would very much counter Immortals, for the exact same reason Zealots do, as he mentioned in his post if you actually bothered to read it....
On October 28 2012 04:40 Crawdad wrote: Pulsar Beam is better than I thought, I reckoned it would be all about Time Warp, but nah.
Now the neglected spell is Revelation. I think it should cost 50 energy, or it will always take away from the more powerful abilities. Or it should be more useful somehow. Also, I think that the names of Envision and Revelation should be switched.
On October 28 2012 04:40 Crawdad wrote: Pulsar Beam is better than I thought, I reckoned it would be all about Time Warp, but nah.
Now the neglected spell is Revelation. I think it should cost 50 energy, or it will always take away from the more powerful abilities. Or it should be more useful somehow. Also, I think that the names of Envision and Revelation should be switched.
Haha, good point. I agree with you
I think it's supposed to take away from the more powerful abilities... hence the tension in spending your energy.
While i do think vikings are reasonable (but very hard) anti air for mech, i'd really love to see another anti-air option for mech. Maybe not much stronger, but one that fits the composition better. Maybe a viking change could be an answer for that as well.
2 extremely simple changes would make Mech 100% viable in TvP:
1.) Siege Tanks deal +25% damage vs shields. 2.) Ground Viking attack changed from 1 attack at 12 damage, to 2 attacks at 7 damage each. In additional, Landed Vikings benefit from mech upgrades rather than air upgrades (in the air they'd still count as air units, similar to how Hellions shift between bio and mech).
The first change substantially increases overall Tank viability vs. Protoss without altering in any way their performance in TvT and TvZ. Now directly engaging a clump of sieged tanks becomes a very bad idea for Protoss ground, which is how it should be. Also, Tanks are no longer super hard-countered by Archons.
The second change makes Landed Vikings an effective counter to Immortal Hardened shields--since 7 damage is below the hardened shield threshold, both attacks will hit at full value, similar to how Zealots work against Immortals. By partially scaling with mech upgrades, Vikings can be more easily incorporated into mech compositions. And unlike marines, landed vikings have equal range to Immortals.
These two straightforward fixes would solve the biggest issues with TvP mech currently--namely that Terran mech doesn't do enough damage vs Toss in a straight fight to justify the huge mobility tradeoff, and that Toss has easy access to extremely hard counters on the ground in Immortals and Archons. Yet they would have minimal effect on other matchups. Combined with Hellbats to kill Chargelots, Mech would be fully capable of beating a Protoss deathball in a straight-up fight, forcing Protoss to rely more on mobility advantages, which is really how it should be.
With Timewarp now in the game, mass bio is not going to be that great in lategame, because bio dies instantly if you can't kite effectively (on the other hand, Timewarp does literally nothing vs sieged tanks and well-positioned hellbats and mines, since they aren't really moving much during fights anyway). Personally, as someone who fucking hates giant bioballs and would much prefer to see Mech as the go-to lategame comp in TvP, I think this is a good thing. But the flip side is if you're improving Toss vs. bio, you HAVE to make mech viable, or Terran will simply lose constantly in TvP.
I think basically everyone, both Terran and Protoss, would rather Terran play a more mech-oriented style in TvP. Bio is cool in early game and even in the midgame, but immense clumps of units endlessly kiting just does not make for fun gameplay or spectating in lategame. Timewarp partially "fixes" this by nerfing giant bioballs vs Toss pretty hard...but in exchange, Mech needs a substantial buff. If Blizzard wants to jump through hoops making a new unit that fixes Mech in TVP, that isn't total shit like the Warhound was, they're welcome to. But personally I think they have everything they need to fix mech already in the game, they just need to tweak the numbers a bit.
I wouldn't agree with both changes you mentioned, I would be ok with one or the other, strongly being in favor of the second option. Any way to give reliable AA that doesn't also detract too horribly from the ground army is the way to fix mech, IMO.
I do agree that mech is just a couple tweaks away from being pretty solid, there's no real need for a new unit. Widow Mines and Hellbats added all that Terran needed for the ground portion, it's just the AA that needs a solution.
On October 28 2012 06:08 Laurens wrote: ^ Doesn't solve the anti-air issues, and chargelots will still eat through mech because of friendly fire tank splash. Also lol at viking ground mode being the counter to immortals.
...did you even read the post?
Vikings are amazing AA, it's just that right now they take away way too much from the ground army. What he proposed goes a long way towards fixing that problem. Chargelot effectiveness vs mech is GREATLY reduced with addition of blueflame Hellbats.
And, yes, 2 attacks at 7 damage each would very much counter Immortals, for the exact same reason Zealots do, as he mentioned in his post if you actually bothered to read it....
Do you even play Starcraft? o_O
Yes, I read his post. Yes, I play starcraft, GM on HotS beta and top 8 master on WoL EU.
Vikings are not amazing AA, they are supply and cost ineffective vs protoss air. Blueflame hellbat does the same damage as a blueflame hellion, except 3 less range hence less splash. The fac that it's in a cone rather than a line might make up for this somewhat, but not much. The biggest difference is hellbats have more HP, but again tank splash. (not to mention archons hit them hard now that they're bio.)
immortals 3-shot vikings, what a counter rofl. Also GL targetting the immortals with your vikings if there's 20 chargelots in the way. Read morrow's thoughts on mech here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6934366347?page=1
On October 28 2012 03:08 AbideWithMe wrote: @Freeborn:
Please tell me how this makes the game anymore interesting for Terrans. Interesting in the sense of frustrating and "Fuck why toss so op" and for zerg it will be more interesting in the sense of building mutas or fast infestor every single game because otherwise you die to oracles either through harass or this crazy time warp crap. So yeah PvP is definitely going to be more interesting. and it will be really interesting to see if we ever see a terran in the ladder again.
This makes the game more fun: -because protoss can actually use more different builds -because stargate tech becomes viable -because good players can do amazing things with oracles while bad players just lose them -because time warp is an amazing thing to watch -because you do not need to go observer every time simply to not die to early terran pushes
Did you actually play HotS? If not don't cry OP just because you feel your race threatened.
Widow mines are ridiculous right now as well - They kill observers. Any terran with widow mines out will force hise opponent to play and move around the map extremely carefully and have detection at any time.
That being said though the balance process is ongoing, but the abilities should definetely stay, because they make sense and are fun.
I think help for terran in the form of some late game upgrade would be sensible.
Also I'm pretty sure the in the current state you could straight out buff the siegetank damage while maybe making the switch to siege mode take a bit longer without breaking the game, since tempests and blinding cloud ar epretty gould at countering them.
1. It would be awesome if Time Warp affected friendly units. Does it?
2. I'm a tiny bit concerned that Zerg is getting left behind in the late-game harassment stakes. We are going to see SO many Protoss wins off the back of Oracle hit squads demolishing tech buildings and expansions, and Terrans have always had really potent drops. Maybe it's time for baneling burrow-move to reappear at hive?
On October 28 2012 06:35 Umpteen wrote: Couple of thoughts:
1. It would be awesome if Time Warp affected friendly units. Does it?
2. I'm a tiny bit concerned that Zerg is getting left behind in the late-game harassment stakes. We are going to see SO many Protoss wins off the back of Oracle hit squads demolishing tech buildings and expansions, and Terrans have always had really potent drops. Maybe it's time for baneling burrow-move to reappear at hive?
1. I feel that time warp would kind of be pointless if it afftected friendly units. It's to help gateway units early game, especially zealots actually hit stuff. If it hit your own zealots I'm not sure why it'd ever be used.
If it were really distorting time, it would slow everything, not just movement speed. It's also dumb that a temporal distortion only hits ground, while fungus hits the air.
Did you actually play HotS? If not don't cry OP just because you feel your race threatened.
Widow mines are ridiculous right now as well - They kill observers. Any terran with widow mines out will force hise opponent to play and move around the map extremely carefully and have detection at any time.
That being said though the balance process is ongoing, but the abilities should definetely stay, because they make sense and are fun.
I play HotS, i am 8 top master on WoL, and Gm (ahah) on HotS, and yes, atm, give huge up to protoss and zerg, without give anything to terran, broke late game.
It was always hard for me to play against chargelot / archon / ht / colossus, it is impossible for me to play against that + oracle. Same against Zerg and cloud blinding which is just too powerful cuz it disable 2 / 4 / 6 tanks (but it is so underused...). I don't whine, because it's a beta, but until next patch, it will be difficult to motivate to play on Hots cuz i know late game PvT and ZvT are totally broken.
I have a little suggestion to make mech viable : Feedback only on Bio unit. It is simple, it always counters Infestor / Ghost / Queen, but Raven / Bc / Thor could be a little more effective (it will need other changes after, it's just a first step).
On October 28 2012 06:35 Umpteen wrote: Couple of thoughts:
1. It would be awesome if Time Warp affected friendly units. Does it?
2. I'm a tiny bit concerned that Zerg is getting left behind in the late-game harassment stakes. We are going to see SO many Protoss wins off the back of Oracle hit squads demolishing tech buildings and expansions, and Terrans have always had really potent drops. Maybe it's time for baneling burrow-move to reappear at hive?
1. I feel that time warp would kind of be pointless if it afftected friendly units. It's to help gateway units early game, especially zealots actually hit stuff. If it hit your own zealots I'm not sure why it'd ever be used.
Hmm. You know what? I think you're correct. I'd envisioned it in the later game, where you would need to decide if you're Timewarping offensively (aiming BEYOND the front line of his troops so it works like a soft force-field) or defensively ( aiming ahead of his troops so you get more shooting time before his damage ramps up or more time to run away). But of course we have to think about stargate openings being viable, and that will be all about how much help Oracles can be to basic zealot/stalker armies in small numbers (where forcefield would be better for preventing enemy retreat anyway).
On October 28 2012 06:35 Umpteen wrote: Couple of thoughts:
1. It would be awesome if Time Warp affected friendly units. Does it?
2. I'm a tiny bit concerned that Zerg is getting left behind in the late-game harassment stakes. We are going to see SO many Protoss wins off the back of Oracle hit squads demolishing tech buildings and expansions, and Terrans have always had really potent drops. Maybe it's time for baneling burrow-move to reappear at hive?
Time Warp does not affect friendly units. It only slows the move speed of enemy ground units.
Zerg is pretty fine with harass. They don't need some new unit to do it.
On October 28 2012 06:42 Crawdad wrote: Time Warp is a misnomer, anyway.
If it were really distorting time, it would slow everything, not just movement speed. It's also dumb that a temporal distortion only hits ground, while fungus hits the air.
Yes, I expected an attack speed decrease as well. Sadly, only enemy move speed is affected.
Did you actually play HotS? If not don't cry OP just because you feel your race threatened.
Widow mines are ridiculous right now as well - They kill observers. Any terran with widow mines out will force hise opponent to play and move around the map extremely carefully and have detection at any time.
That being said though the balance process is ongoing, but the abilities should definetely stay, because they make sense and are fun.
I play HotS, i am 8 top master on WoL, and Gm (ahah) on HotS, and yes, atm, give huge up to protoss and zerg, without give anything to terran, broke late game.
It was always hard for me to play against chargelot / archon / ht / colossus, it is impossible for me to play against that + oracle. Same against Zerg and cloud blinding which is just too powerful cuz it disable 2 / 4 / 6 tanks (but it is so underused...). I don't whine, because it's a beta, but until next patch, it will be difficult to motivate to play on Hots cuz i know late game PvT and ZvT are totally broken.
I have a little suggestion to make mech viable : Feedback only on Bio unit. It is simple, it always counters Infestor / Ghost / Queen, but Raven / Bc / Thor could be a little more effective (it will need other changes after, it's just a first step).
Ha, ok.
Well you are probably right that terran lategame needs some form of buff. I just think they should keep the good stuff they have right now and then add to terran what is missing to fight against the new protoss/zerg options.
I am sure blizzard will add something more to terran later on or make some changes to the existing units (since terrans already have so many specialized units)
On October 28 2012 08:42 Thorrissey wrote: So they turned the oracle into a voidray that can only target buildings? Um...
How can people even post bullshits like this? I mean, really?
I have a feeling that fewer people would be making the comparison if Pulsar Beam wasn't a continuous laser and didn't reuse the Void Ray sound effects.
just read all the topic , and almost all terran are not happy about the game and think terran need a big everywhere buff
but this will never happen because terran are the race the less played , add something good to the race and every zerg and protoss will whine for get that nerfed everywhere , look at the warhound , yes that was op but they could have just nerf the unit. no we have got about 100 topic of whine and they removed the unit from the game . just look at the mine , i have read about over 20 post in of people who want it more nerfed , would not surprise me if blizzard nerf the mine again .
blizzard listen way to much to the whiner and people now , kinda sad
I just played a fair bit and it feels like the spine crawler change is a much bigger buff than bliz probably intended. It pretty much shuts down hellions and mines in a lot of cases, just seems weird. I'm not gonna whine "zerg imba" or nothing but I will say zerg hasnt been particularly struggling lately.
On October 28 2012 09:25 GungraveHero2 wrote: just read all the topic , and almost all terran are not happy about the game and think terran need a big everywhere buff
but this will never happen because terran are the race the less played , add something good to the race and every zerg and protoss will whine for get that nerfed everywhere , look at the warhound , yes that was op but they could have just nerf the unit. no we have got about 100 topic of whine and they removed the unit from the game . just look at the mine , i have read about over 20 post in of people who want it more nerfed , would not surprise me if blizzard nerf the mine again .
blizzard listen way to much to the whiner and people now , kinda sad
what a joke
RIP TERRAN .
almost all terrans are not happy? your wrong. Its that every unhappy terran is a whiner and has to post about it somewhere
Just played a ZvP against a player who utilized Orcales early game. Pulsar beam is retardedly powerful. I was worried about Time Warp but Pulsar Beam is just insane. Even when I put spores as AA near my base, 3-5 Oracles completely negates it and kill it so fast that they don't lose a single unit. Also the speed at which they destroy buildings is just too fast. Even with 3 queens on 2 bases he was still sniping spine crawlers, extractors, and even my Infestation pit before there was any realistic chance for me to react to it.
I expect Blizzard will tone down the damage. I managed to win but I feel it had more to do with the skill difference, since after looking at the replay he had supply blocked himself and was floating a ton of minerals. My fear is that in the late game, when there are 4-5 of these things floating around, they are going to completely wreck expansions unless a queen and an Infestor are camping each expansion because spores get completely nullified once there's 3 or more.
On October 28 2012 10:19 sagefreke wrote: Just played a ZvP against a player who utilized Orcales early game. Pulsar beam is retardedly powerful. I was worried about Time Warp but Pulsar Beam is just insane. Even when I put spores as AA near my base, 3-5 Oracles completely negates it and kill it so fast that they don't lose a single unit. Also the speed at which they destroy buildings is just too fast. Even with 3 queens on 2 bases he was still sniping spine crawlers, extractors, and even my Infestation pit before there was any realistic chance for me to react to it.
I expect Blizzard will tone down the damage. I managed to win but I feel it had more to do with the skill difference, since after looking at the replay he had supply blocked himself and was floating a ton of minerals. My fear is that in the late game, when there are 4-5 of these things floating around, they are going to completely wreck expansions unless a queen and an Infestor are camping each expansion because spores get completely nullified once there's 3 or more.
hi, when there are 4-5 spores at an expansion do the oracles have enough energy to kill the spores and the hatchery? mind you, would the protoss lose 1-2 oracles while killing the spores?
On October 28 2012 10:19 sagefreke wrote: Just played a ZvP against a player who utilized Orcales early game. Pulsar beam is retardedly powerful. I was worried about Time Warp but Pulsar Beam is just insane. Even when I put spores as AA near my base, 3-5 Oracles completely negates it and kill it so fast that they don't lose a single unit. Also the speed at which they destroy buildings is just too fast. Even with 3 queens on 2 bases he was still sniping spine crawlers, extractors, and even my Infestation pit before there was any realistic chance for me to react to it.
I expect Blizzard will tone down the damage. I managed to win but I feel it had more to do with the skill difference, since after looking at the replay he had supply blocked himself and was floating a ton of minerals. My fear is that in the late game, when there are 4-5 of these things floating around, they are going to completely wreck expansions unless a queen and an Infestor are camping each expansion because spores get completely nullified once there's 3 or more.
hi, when there are 4-5 spores at an expansion do the oracles have enough energy to kill the spores and the hatchery? mind you, would the protoss lose 1-2 oracles while killing the spores?
4-5 spores is a bit excessive. That's 500 minerals minimum for AA only. What about spines for zealot runbys? That's another 400-500 minerals I have to invest to secure an expansion in the late game. This of course doesn't factor in the very real possibility that he can run in your base late game and snipe a greater spire in just seconds unless you have a full energy queen nearby just spamming transfuse.
So are you saying the solution to 4-5 oracles running around the map would be to place 4+ spores at each base? That doesn't sound economical at all considering he could just not use pulsar beam at all and instead use all his energy for time warp in battles.
Considering that the oracle only targets buildings, shouldn't it be really good vs buildings? I don't see why oracles shouldn't be able to trade well with spores or other static defenses, since they can be driven off by even one anti-air unit.
Sweet. Now I just want them to make the Void Ray viable without changing its appearance (seriously, why does the coolest looking unit (imo) in the game have to be the most useless?)
On October 28 2012 10:19 sagefreke wrote: Just played a ZvP against a player who utilized Orcales early game. Pulsar beam is retardedly powerful. I was worried about Time Warp but Pulsar Beam is just insane. Even when I put spores as AA near my base, 3-5 Oracles completely negates it and kill it so fast that they don't lose a single unit. Also the speed at which they destroy buildings is just too fast. Even with 3 queens on 2 bases he was still sniping spine crawlers, extractors, and even my Infestation pit before there was any realistic chance for me to react to it.
I expect Blizzard will tone down the damage. I managed to win but I feel it had more to do with the skill difference, since after looking at the replay he had supply blocked himself and was floating a ton of minerals. My fear is that in the late game, when there are 4-5 of these things floating around, they are going to completely wreck expansions unless a queen and an Infestor are camping each expansion because spores get completely nullified once there's 3 or more.
hi, when there are 4-5 spores at an expansion do the oracles have enough energy to kill the spores and the hatchery? mind you, would the protoss lose 1-2 oracles while killing the spores?
4-5 spores is a bit excessive. That's 500 minerals minimum for AA only. What about spines for zealot runbys? That's another 400-500 minerals I have to invest to secure an expansion in the late game. This of course doesn't factor in the very real possibility that he can run in your base late game and snipe a greater spire in just seconds unless you have a full energy queen nearby just spamming transfuse.
So are you saying the solution to 4-5 oracles running around the map would be to place 4+ spores at each base? That doesn't sound economical at all considering he could just not use pulsar beam at all and instead use all his energy for time warp in battles.
On October 28 2012 11:53 LockeTazeline wrote: Sweet. Now I just want them to make the Void Ray viable without changing its appearance (seriously, why does the coolest looking unit (imo) in the game have to be the most useless?)
i think we have our new scout? (brood war reference)
On October 28 2012 10:19 sagefreke wrote: Just played a ZvP against a player who utilized Orcales early game. Pulsar beam is retardedly powerful. I was worried about Time Warp but Pulsar Beam is just insane. Even when I put spores as AA near my base, 3-5 Oracles completely negates it and kill it so fast that they don't lose a single unit. Also the speed at which they destroy buildings is just too fast. Even with 3 queens on 2 bases he was still sniping spine crawlers, extractors, and even my Infestation pit before there was any realistic chance for me to react to it.
I expect Blizzard will tone down the damage. I managed to win but I feel it had more to do with the skill difference, since after looking at the replay he had supply blocked himself and was floating a ton of minerals. My fear is that in the late game, when there are 4-5 of these things floating around, they are going to completely wreck expansions unless a queen and an Infestor are camping each expansion because spores get completely nullified once there's 3 or more.
You don't actually defend against oracles with spores - you build more queens, they can transfuse any attacked building and cannot be attacked by oracles.
Just played a zerg he spread his overlords a bit so he saw me coming, and was able to fend me off with a few queens.
Sure with 4-5 oracles you can always kill something, but 1 oracle is more expensive than most zerg buildings. And infestors of course instantly shut them down.
They are really nice but they die extremely fast and 150 - 150 is not exactly cheap.
On October 28 2012 10:19 sagefreke wrote: Just played a ZvP against a player who utilized Orcales early game. Pulsar beam is retardedly powerful. I was worried about Time Warp but Pulsar Beam is just insane. Even when I put spores as AA near my base, 3-5 Oracles completely negates it and kill it so fast that they don't lose a single unit. Also the speed at which they destroy buildings is just too fast. Even with 3 queens on 2 bases he was still sniping spine crawlers, extractors, and even my Infestation pit before there was any realistic chance for me to react to it.
I expect Blizzard will tone down the damage. I managed to win but I feel it had more to do with the skill difference, since after looking at the replay he had supply blocked himself and was floating a ton of minerals. My fear is that in the late game, when there are 4-5 of these things floating around, they are going to completely wreck expansions unless a queen and an Infestor are camping each expansion because spores get completely nullified once there's 3 or more.
You don't actually defend against oracles with spores - you build more queens, they can transfuse any attacked building and cannot be attacked by oracles.
Just played a zerg he spread his overlords a bit so he saw me coming, and was able to fend me off with a few queens.
Sure with 4-5 oracles you can always kill something, but 1 oracle is more expensive than most zerg buildings. And infestors of course instantly shut them down.
They are really nice but they die extremely fast and 150 - 150 is not exactly cheap.
Yeah they seem to be built to negate static defenses in larger numbers. I personally havent been making more than 3 of them because I feel too weak after I make them to hold any attack.
Gonna have to agree with the people expressing concern over TvP with the new Time Warp spell. It is already very easy to lose an entire army to storm and colossus, and TW is gonna make it worse. Interested to see how they plan to address this.
The oracle would be pretty good if it cost less gas. maybe 150/100 instead of 150/150. Takes too long to get up a small pack to kill buildings, and leaves you with no ground army.
On October 28 2012 12:37 LRObot wrote: More anti micro spells. Unbelievable.
you can still micro, just in slo mo.....and its not even that bad. Its basically taking a stim marine and unstimming him
Unstimming him? Quick, what's 50% of 3.375? It's more like, unstimming him and blowing one of his legs off. There's a huge disparity of movement crowd control abilities between the 3 races. Toss gets another one, Z the best, T has conc, the worst.
There is little mircoing out of %50 movement speed reduction. As a Protoss user, I presume, you should understand this when your stalkers are conc shelled. They more often then not, die, save for the few times T disengages or P fall back to reinforcements or has blink.
The only micro this creates is preemptive on the Terran's part, which again, is already lopsided between the three races.
On October 28 2012 12:37 LRObot wrote: More anti micro spells. Unbelievable.
you can still micro, just in slo mo.....and its not even that bad. Its basically taking a stim marine and unstimming him
Unstimming him? Quick, what's 50% of 3.375? It's more like, unstimming him and blowing one of his legs off. There's a huge disparity of movement crowd control abilities between the 3 races. Toss gets another one, Z the best, T has conc, the worst.
Hmm the fact that you quote conc as terran's crowd control abilities raises an eyebrow... I was thinking more siege tanks/widow mines?
On October 28 2012 12:37 LRObot wrote: More anti micro spells. Unbelievable.
you can still micro, just in slo mo.....and its not even that bad. Its basically taking a stim marine and unstimming him
Unstimming him? Quick, what's 50% of 3.375? It's more like, unstimming him and blowing one of his legs off. There's a huge disparity of movement crowd control abilities between the 3 races. Toss gets another one, Z the best, T has conc, the worst.
There is little mircoing out of %50 movement speed reduction. As a Protoss user, I presume, you should understand this when your stalkers are conc shelled. They more often then not, die, save for the few times T disengages or P fall back to reinforcements or has blink.
The only micro this creates is preemptive on the Terran's part, which again, is already lopsided between the three races.
Timewarp only reduces movement speed not attack speed so the only real advantages in a battle are: - if your troops outrange the enemy you can do more damage while they try to close in - if the enemy flees you can slow him down and catch him - to keep units under the effect of psi storm a bit longer
by itself it's much weaker and less extreme then force field. It's really more of a supportive spell.
Terran has an AoE that counters all spellcasters and basically all protoss units, that's pretty good. And the oracly is countered by vikings as well as by ghosts. So stop whining.
Plus terrans can heal their bio in mid battle and now the battlehellion is mechanical as well as bio - it is actually being healed by medivacs.
Terran may still need some tweaks, but the new abilities add a lot to the game and may help to get rid of the force field dependance for protoss.
On October 28 2012 12:37 LRObot wrote: More anti micro spells. Unbelievable.
you can still micro, just in slo mo.....and its not even that bad. Its basically taking a stim marine and unstimming him
Unstimming him? Quick, what's 50% of 3.375? It's more like, unstimming him and blowing one of his legs off. There's a huge disparity of movement crowd control abilities between the 3 races. Toss gets another one, Z the best, T has conc, the worst.
Hmm the fact that you quote conc as terran's crowd control abilities raises an eyebrow... I was thinking more siege tanks/widow mines?
Tanks and widow mines are AoE damage, not a CC. That would be like saying Colo and HTs are CC.
On October 28 2012 10:19 sagefreke wrote: Just played a ZvP against a player who utilized Orcales early game. Pulsar beam is retardedly powerful. I was worried about Time Warp but Pulsar Beam is just insane. Even when I put spores as AA near my base, 3-5 Oracles completely negates it and kill it so fast that they don't lose a single unit. Also the speed at which they destroy buildings is just too fast. Even with 3 queens on 2 bases he was still sniping spine crawlers, extractors, and even my Infestation pit before there was any realistic chance for me to react to it.
I expect Blizzard will tone down the damage. I managed to win but I feel it had more to do with the skill difference, since after looking at the replay he had supply blocked himself and was floating a ton of minerals. My fear is that in the late game, when there are 4-5 of these things floating around, they are going to completely wreck expansions unless a queen and an Infestor are camping each expansion because spores get completely nullified once there's 3 or more.
hi, when there are 4-5 spores at an expansion do the oracles have enough energy to kill the spores and the hatchery? mind you, would the protoss lose 1-2 oracles while killing the spores?
4-5 spores is a bit excessive. That's 500 minerals minimum for AA only. What about spines for zealot runbys? That's another 400-500 minerals I have to invest to secure an expansion in the late game. This of course doesn't factor in the very real possibility that he can run in your base late game and snipe a greater spire in just seconds unless you have a full energy queen nearby just spamming transfuse.
So are you saying the solution to 4-5 oracles running around the map would be to place 4+ spores at each base? That doesn't sound economical at all considering he could just not use pulsar beam at all and instead use all his energy for time warp in battles.
Fair trade to me considering how retardedly powerful BL/infestor is, even without swarm hosts in the mix.
On October 28 2012 12:37 LRObot wrote: More anti micro spells. Unbelievable.
you can still micro, just in slo mo.....and its not even that bad. Its basically taking a stim marine and unstimming him
Unstimming him? Quick, what's 50% of 3.375? It's more like, unstimming him and blowing one of his legs off. There's a huge disparity of movement crowd control abilities between the 3 races. Toss gets another one, Z the best, T has conc, the worst.
There is little mircoing out of %50 movement speed reduction. As a Protoss user, I presume, you should understand this when your stalkers are conc shelled. They more often then not, die, save for the few times T disengages or P fall back to reinforcements or has blink.
The only micro this creates is preemptive on the Terran's part, which again, is already lopsided between the three races.
Timewarp only reduces movement speed not attack speed so the only real advantages in a battle are: - if your troops outrange the enemy you can do more damage while they try to close in - if the enemy flees you can slow him down and catch him - to keep units under the effect of psi storm a bit longer
by itself it's much weaker and less extreme then force field. It's really more of a supportive spell.
Terran has an AoE that counters all spellcasters and basically all protoss units, that's pretty good. And the oracly is countered by vikings as well as by ghosts. So stop whining.
Plus terrans can heal their bio in mid battle and now the battlehellion is mechanical as well as bio - it is actually being healed by medivacs.
Terran may still need some tweaks, but the new abilities add a lot to the game and may help to get rid of the force field dependance for protoss.
Yeah, but the AoE is 3.5. Do you know how big of an area that is? Pre nerf EMP was 2 and it was deemed overpowered. You can't even pre split to avoid it since your units will have to be so far away from each other that you might as well be 2 separate forces. And we know how well 2 separate force do against one big deathball in SC2. I am all for splitting up the deathball. But if only one side has to do it, then that is an issue. Funny thing is that this doesn't help P against the deathball they fear most. The BL/ infestor....
On October 28 2012 12:37 LRObot wrote: More anti micro spells. Unbelievable.
you can still micro, just in slo mo.....and its not even that bad. Its basically taking a stim marine and unstimming him
Unstimming him? Quick, what's 50% of 3.375? It's more like, unstimming him and blowing one of his legs off. There's a huge disparity of movement crowd control abilities between the 3 races. Toss gets another one, Z the best, T has conc, the worst.
There is little mircoing out of %50 movement speed reduction. As a Protoss user, I presume, you should understand this when your stalkers are conc shelled. They more often then not, die, save for the few times T disengages or P fall back to reinforcements or has blink.
The only micro this creates is preemptive on the Terran's part, which again, is already lopsided between the three races.
Timewarp only reduces movement speed not attack speed so the only real advantages in a battle are: - if your troops outrange the enemy you can do more damage while they try to close in - if the enemy flees you can slow him down and catch him - to keep units under the effect of psi storm a bit longer
by itself it's much weaker and less extreme then force field. It's really more of a supportive spell.
Terran has an AoE that counters all spellcasters and basically all protoss units, that's pretty good. And the oracly is countered by vikings as well as by ghosts. So stop whining.
Plus terrans can heal their bio in mid battle and now the battlehellion is mechanical as well as bio - it is actually being healed by medivacs.
Terran may still need some tweaks, but the new abilities add a lot to the game and may help to get rid of the force field dependance for protoss.
Time warp doesn't lessen the dependence on forcefield one bit. Forcefields are DEPENDED on for early base defense. TW won't change that. Forcefields are DEPENDED on for timing attacks. TW won't change that, either. Everything in between, forcefields are just gravy.
They have a relatively balanced game right now, so they don't want to work overtime to actually redesign the game's flaws.
Imagine taking out warpgate, forcefields (replaced by TW), deathballs, etc... A big job of rebalancing it all. They just don't want to get into that.
They want to make us believe they internally tested the custom army movement patterns, while we do know that if they really wanted to try it, they would have put it on a beta patch. Internally test? by whom? the same clowns who make the ladder maps? yeah ok.
On October 28 2012 12:37 LRObot wrote: More anti micro spells. Unbelievable.
you can still micro, just in slo mo.....and its not even that bad. Its basically taking a stim marine and unstimming him
Unstimming him? Quick, what's 50% of 3.375? It's more like, unstimming him and blowing one of his legs off. There's a huge disparity of movement crowd control abilities between the 3 races. Toss gets another one, Z the best, T has conc, the worst.
There is little mircoing out of %50 movement speed reduction. As a Protoss user, I presume, you should understand this when your stalkers are conc shelled. They more often then not, die, save for the few times T disengages or P fall back to reinforcements or has blink.
The only micro this creates is preemptive on the Terran's part, which again, is already lopsided between the three races.
Timewarp only reduces movement speed not attack speed so the only real advantages in a battle are: - if your troops outrange the enemy you can do more damage while they try to close in - if the enemy flees you can slow him down and catch him - to keep units under the effect of psi storm a bit longer
by itself it's much weaker and less extreme then force field. It's really more of a supportive spell.
Terran has an AoE that counters all spellcasters and basically all protoss units, that's pretty good. And the oracly is countered by vikings as well as by ghosts. So stop whining.
Plus terrans can heal their bio in mid battle and now the battlehellion is mechanical as well as bio - it is actually being healed by medivacs.
Terran may still need some tweaks, but the new abilities add a lot to the game and may help to get rid of the force field dependance for protoss.
Yeah, but the AoE is 3.5. Do you know how big of an area that is? Pre nerf EMP was 2 and it was deemed overpowered. You can't even pre split to avoid it since your units will have to be so far away from each other that you might as well be 2 separate forces. And we know how well 2 separate force do against one big deathball in SC2. I am all for splitting up the deathball. But if only one side has to do it, then that is an issue. Funny thing is that this doesn't help P against the deathball they fear most. The BL/ infestor....
Time Warp does help ... if you use it to zone out the supporting Infestors (cast it on the Broodlord target area and withdraw a bit) and you also are able to run away from the Broodlings a bit easier. Void Rays as anti-Broodlord force could pull the Infestors to one side and then you "trap them" with a Time Warp and blink in with your Stalkers.
The thing is that Time Warp should have helped you A LOT before the Broodlords are out and that is giving you an edge already.
On October 28 2012 15:58 Patate wrote: I'm starting to think Blizzard is just lazy...
They have a relatively balanced game right now, so they don't want to work overtime to actually redesign the game's flaws.
Imagine taking out warpgate, forcefields (replaced by TW), deathballs, etc... A big job of rebalancing it all. They just don't want to get into that.
They want to make us believe they internally tested the custom army movement patterns, while we do know that if they really wanted to try it, they would have put it on a beta patch. Internally test? by whom? the same clowns who make the ladder maps? yeah ok.
The devs not working overtime to redesign their entire game for an expansion is considered lazy now? Do you regularly work extra shifts to change what you don't consider broken, as Blizzard's stated about warp gates and force fields?
On October 28 2012 15:58 Patate wrote: I'm starting to think Blizzard is just lazy...
They have a relatively balanced game right now, so they don't want to work overtime to actually redesign the game's flaws.
Imagine taking out warpgate, forcefields (replaced by TW), deathballs, etc... A big job of rebalancing it all. They just don't want to get into that.
They want to make us believe they internally tested the custom army movement patterns, while we do know that if they really wanted to try it, they would have put it on a beta patch. Internally test? by whom? the same clowns who make the ladder maps? yeah ok.
The devs not working overtime to redesign their entire game for an expansion is considered lazy now? Do you regularly work extra shifts to change what you don't consider broken, as Blizzard's stated about warp gates and force fields?
Well yes sometimes I do work overtime to meet requirements for new standards that we put into place. As for the devs, they just don't feel the situation is urgent, yet it has never been as much.
On October 28 2012 12:37 LRObot wrote: More anti micro spells. Unbelievable.
you can still micro, just in slo mo.....and its not even that bad. Its basically taking a stim marine and unstimming him
It does more. A stimmed marine has 50% more speed, so it has 150% speed. The time warp spell reduces speed by 50%, but now 150% is the new 100% so the speed gets reduced to 75%, which is below the 100% of an unstimmed marine.
On October 28 2012 15:58 Patate wrote: I'm starting to think Blizzard is just lazy...
Just because you don't know how hard the team works does not mean they are lazy. It just means that you are not well informed.
On October 28 2012 15:58 Patate wrote:They have a relatively balanced game right now, so they don't want to work overtime to actually redesign the game's flaws.
Imagine taking out warpgate, forcefields (replaced by TW), deathballs, etc... A big job of rebalancing it all. They just don't want to get into that.
They want to make us believe they internally tested the custom army movement patterns, while we do know that if they really wanted to try it, they would have put it on a beta patch. Internally test? by whom? the same clowns who make the ladder maps? yeah ok.
They did a lot of things, but concepts like the shredder or replicator didn't work out. They don't want to get rid of warpgates because this production method sets Protoss apart from Terran. It's a game design decision, not a balance decision. Deathballs are even wanted to a certain degree. Forcefields seems to continue to be problematic but you cannot have a game which is both exciting and has no problematic mechanics. They already cut a lot of things which didn't work out, they obviously keep the things which are a bit problematic to have not to cut everything in the end.
If you call Blizzard developers "clowns" while you own postings is stuffed with ignorance, I don't know what else to say. Maybe you could apply for a job and show the 'clowns' how it's done right?
On October 28 2012 15:58 Patate wrote: I'm starting to think Blizzard is just lazy...
Just because you don't know how hard the team works does not mean they are lazy. It just means that you are not well informed.
Sorry, but this is kinda blind "Blizzard is great and you dont know how they work" is nonsensical propaganda, because most of the ideas which have come from Blizzard for the expansion so far have been downgrades (Reaper), completely absurd (Warhound, Time Warp, Widow Mine, ...) or simply either OP or useless in the concept of SC2 (Tempest, Swarm Host). In any case they didnt do anything about the suggestions of the community and simply tested some movement adjustment modification for five minutes and declared it useless (or rather unnecessary).
They totally fail to see the problems of the game and this is either from being too lazy to see it/do anything about it OR from being incapable of seeing it. Patate just chose the more polite one here, but the truth is that suggestions and problems have been made for months without them acknowledging the problems or even trying the solutions in earnest. They claim to be trying to make mech viable, but the only thing they came up with is yet another stupid unit which doesnt really work well together with the core unit of that type: the Siege Tank. Keep on defending Dustin and his bunch of bumbling fools, the problems are defined by now and the suggestions are there to get rid of them and the best ones dont involve any new units at all. So either they have too many holy cows OR they are too lazy to do it.
The most important part about it isnt actually DOING IT, but rather THINKING IT THROUGH and it is here where they seem to be lacking and it shows in their very very wildly different iterations of the units for HotS.
I love Time Warp - I've been discussing an ability like that with friends for a while now. Casting that on a mineral/gas line should effectively slow down mining of both resources by 50%, right? I'm not sure about the Pulsar Beam - it seems it will overlap too much with the Void Ray (at least in lower leagues). And I still think the Tempest is a unit without a clear role: it does nothing that the Void Ray or the Carrier wouldn't be able to do if they just fixed those two units. Honestly, Protoss doesn't need three new units: the MSC is really starting to get there (I LOVE the detection ability so Protoss don't HAVE to go Robo just to get mobile detection) and the Oracle is finally showing real promise.
On a different note, I think Blizzard is finally handling things right: Zerg seemed pretty finished a while ago with the Viper and Swarm Host as the new units and they seem to be in tweak mode now. I hope Blizzard will now take the time to develop Protoss until that's close to finished and THEN start working on Terran to see, given the new things P & Z can do, what Terran needs.
On October 28 2012 15:58 Patate wrote: I'm starting to think Blizzard is just lazy...
Just because you don't know how hard the team works does not mean they are lazy. It just means that you are not well informed.
Sorry, but this is kinda blind "Blizzard is great and you dont know how they work" is nonsensical propaganda, because most of the ideas which have come from Blizzard for the expansion so far have been downgrades (Reaper), completely absurd (Warhound, Time Warp, Widow Mine, ...) or simply either OP or useless in the concept of SC2 (Tempest, Swarm Host). In any case they didnt do anything about the suggestions of the community and simply tested some movement adjustment modification for five minutes and declared it useless (or rather unnecessary).
They totally fail to see the problems of the game and this is either from being too lazy to see it/do anything about it OR from being incapable of seeing it. Patate just chose the more polite one here, but the truth is that suggestions and problems have been made for months without them acknowledging the problems or even trying the solutions in earnest. They claim to be trying to make mech viable, but the only thing they came up with is yet another stupid unit which doesnt really work well together with the core unit of that type: the Siege Tank. Keep on defending Dustin and his bunch of bumbling fools, the problems are defined by now and the suggestions are there to get rid of them and the best ones dont involve any new units at all. So either they have too many holy cows OR they are too lazy to do it.
The most important part about it isnt actually DOING IT, but rather THINKING IT THROUGH and it is here where they seem to be lacking and it shows in their very very wildly different iterations of the units for HotS.
The Blizzard design team is the design team and has a design perspective. Players like to have it easy, viewers like to have it exciting.
Timewarp rewards good tactical positional play. Storm is simply a good spell and there are many ways to make use of it, trapping units up against walls/zealot flanks/forcefields etc. Timewarp does not suddenly make protoss unbeatable, it is flexible and and rewards good tactical positional play. Not to mention that it does not affect air and has limited usefuless versus units like tanks/mines. With clever use it can provide an advantage or set you back if you invest to much and lose them, but it will not outright win the game.
It provides good synergy with air units. So I can imagine games where terran goes mech, protoss gets some tempest and oracles, timewarp prevents ground units from getting to them which forces terran to get air units which leads to late game mass pvt air battles, I look forward to seeing them.
Also I would recomend watching some hots streams, I have seen some highly entertaining games, watching white-ra's stream. Blink stalker/templar versus mech. Or more recently there was a game where he almost killed a command centre with some oracles before losing them all to widow mines. His reaction was something along the lines of "wow, thats cool"
I dont have access to beta, so I am limited to speculating based on stats and watching streams but I see lots of fun and interesting potential, and this is beta more changes will be coming.
The speed of Burrow Charge has been increased from 2.25 to 3.75.
Holy shit, that's FAST.
It can be TWarped too.
I haven't tested it, since I don't have the beta, but as far as I know the ultralisk still has its frenzy ability. This makes them immune to stun, snare and mind-control effects. I figure that TW goes under either stun or snare, since concussive shells does.
The speed of Burrow Charge has been increased from 2.25 to 3.75.
Holy shit, that's FAST.
It can be TWarped too.
I haven't tested it, since I don't have the beta, but as far as I know the ultralisk still has its frenzy ability. This makes them immune to stun, snare and mind-control effects. I figure that TW goes under either stun or snare, since concussive shells does.
being slowed is neither a stun or a snare according to most blizzard titles (eg wow and Diablo).
The speed of Burrow Charge has been increased from 2.25 to 3.75.
Holy shit, that's FAST.
It can be TWarped too.
I haven't tested it, since I don't have the beta, but as far as I know the ultralisk still has its frenzy ability. This makes them immune to stun, snare and mind-control effects. I figure that TW goes under either stun or snare, since concussive shells does.
being slowed is neither a stun or a snare according to most blizzard titles (eg wow and Diablo).
How do you explain thst ultralisks are immune to the marauders slow then? If concussive doesn't slow ultras, then neither should TW.
I am so damn happy, they got rid of the Entomb ability. Fuck yeah. It seems to me they are finally getting into the right direction. At least with zerg and protoss. Terran I am not sure.
On October 28 2012 22:03 Millet wrote: How do you explain thst ultralisks are immune to the marauders slow then? If concussive doesn't slow ultras, then neither should TW.
On October 28 2012 22:03 Millet wrote: How do you explain thst ultralisks are immune to the marauders slow then? If concussive doesn't slow ultras, then neither should TW.
Lings have become completely useless. Their speed seems useless when you can lose over 20 from one mine and you have to wait for your slow overseer. Mech was already getting really strong in WoL cause people have learned how to play it.
Same goes for mutas - they have become a complete waste.
They just slow down the game and removes what was fun. Terran can also now easily contain me on 2 bases which leaves me going 2 base roach drop vs mech which just doesn't work anymore if people play properly.
I face alot less toss players now cause they apparantly also struggle ridiculously vs this silly unit but I don't know about that MU.
Mech was kinda cool in BW when there were a billion other things to challenge you mechanically but one of the highest skill demands in SC2 comes from the high speed games (which I personally prefer) but I kinda think this unit takes away from that.
I didn't like the new oracle spells before I started playing, but having tested it abit now it is indeed cooler and seems to have given toss some of what they needed to balance them.
I face alot less toss players now cause they apparantly also struggle ridiculously vs this silly unit but I don't know about that MU.
I was trying 1gate expand - star or 1gate star - expand play vs terran, if he is not gasless it's almost a build order loss to mine drops. If he gets them behind your mineral lines in split positions the mothership core or a cannon per base are insufficient for detection - and if you are not super careful with the mothership core and mine recharge time (sacking units to them), it is going to instantly die when it spawns, 'cause you have mines next to the nexus. For 300/100 and the opportunity cost of taking gas and doing pretty much a reactor hellion expand but mines instead with a singular medivac, if you dont have a robo at like the 4:30 mark, you wont be able to mine from either mineral line and if you didnt go robo by like 6 minutes and he hits you with something like that, its at build order loss status. Its very difficult to play on beta, because there are so many things that you MUST or CANT do and you cant really figure them out without losing 20 or more games to people of far lower skill levels because they learned a gimmick like widow mine drop and played 200 games with it while you are on your first game of the beta.
For higher level players its frustrating, but i cant imagine trying to explain to a friend or two in bronze-gold league such a complex set of rules that they have to follow in order to avoid dieing horribly. If blizzard wants the game to appeal to casuals, the same people who refused to play because proxy reapers pissed them off and they didnt know what to do or how to win, then this unit design isnt it, because it feels a LOT more scary than proxy reapers ever were, even pre-nerf, no amount of micro will save your ass if you get mines in both of your mineral lines and dont have a robo started, the game is completely over.
I dont neccesarily disagree with it, but it's frustrating to have people freewin against you until you figure timings out, and i cant imagine even trying to explain all of the variables to somebody in the bottom half of the skill pyramid who is trying to play but dies every game to mine drops or blobs.
Also being forced to test this at 150 ping is extremely painful.
Sounds like how Terran would complain about 6-pool and 4gate rushes. Heh. Like I've been saying HotS is a "new" game, new experiences and new dynamics.
At least 60% of WOL builds AND timings IMHO, should not work otherwise, it will be an expansion not a sequel. HotS has to as dramatic as SC1 vs. SC:BW in game play experience if not MORE drastic to give the feeling of a different game with the same characters. An example would be Final Fantasy series by Square Enix, every sequel was a new game, new dynamics, but always the same character archetypes and the same names.
I face alot less toss players now cause they apparantly also struggle ridiculously vs this silly unit but I don't know about that MU.
I was trying 1gate expand - star or 1gate star - expand play vs terran, if he is not gasless it's almost a build order loss to mine drops. If he gets them behind your mineral lines in split positions the mothership core or a cannon per base are insufficient for detection - and if you are not super careful with the mothership core and mine recharge time (sacking units to them), it is going to instantly die when it spawns, 'cause you have mines next to the nexus. For 300/100 and the opportunity cost of taking gas and doing pretty much a reactor hellion expand but mines instead with a singular medivac, if you dont have a robo at like the 4:30 mark, you wont be able to mine from either mineral line and if you didnt go robo by like 6 minutes and he hits you with something like that, its at build order loss status. Its very difficult to play on beta, because there are so many things that you MUST or CANT do and you cant really figure them out without losing 20 or more games to people of far lower skill levels because they learned a gimmick like widow mine drop and played 200 games with it while you are on your first game of the beta.
For higher level players its frustrating, but i cant imagine trying to explain to a friend or two in bronze-gold league such a complex set of rules that they have to follow in order to avoid dieing horribly. If blizzard wants the game to appeal to casuals, the same people who refused to play because proxy reapers pissed them off and they didnt know what to do or how to win, then this unit design isnt it, because it feels a LOT more scary than proxy reapers ever were, even pre-nerf, no amount of micro will save your ass if you get mines in both of your mineral lines and dont have a robo started, the game is completely over.
I dont neccesarily disagree with it, but it's frustrating to have people freewin against you until you figure timings out, and i cant imagine even trying to explain all of the variables to somebody in the bottom half of the skill pyramid who is trying to play but dies every game to mine drops or blobs.
Also being forced to test this at 150 ping is extremely painful.
On October 28 2012 15:58 Patate wrote: I'm starting to think Blizzard is just lazy...
Just because you don't know how hard the team works does not mean they are lazy. It just means that you are not well informed.
Sorry, but this is kinda blind "Blizzard is great and you dont know how they work" is nonsensical propaganda, because most of the ideas which have come from Blizzard for the expansion so far have been downgrades (Reaper), completely absurd (Warhound, Time Warp, Widow Mine, ...) or simply either OP or useless in the concept of SC2 (Tempest, Swarm Host). In any case they didnt do anything about the suggestions of the community and simply tested some movement adjustment modification for five minutes and declared it useless (or rather unnecessary).
They totally fail to see the problems of the game and this is either from being too lazy to see it/do anything about it OR from being incapable of seeing it. Patate just chose the more polite one here, but the truth is that suggestions and problems have been made for months without them acknowledging the problems or even trying the solutions in earnest. They claim to be trying to make mech viable, but the only thing they came up with is yet another stupid unit which doesnt really work well together with the core unit of that type: the Siege Tank. Keep on defending Dustin and his bunch of bumbling fools, the problems are defined by now and the suggestions are there to get rid of them and the best ones dont involve any new units at all. So either they have too many holy cows OR they are too lazy to do it.
The most important part about it isnt actually DOING IT, but rather THINKING IT THROUGH and it is here where they seem to be lacking and it shows in their very very wildly different iterations of the units for HotS.
The Blizzard design team is the design team and has a design perspective. Players like to have it easy, viewers like to have it exciting.
And because they get paid for it they can never ever make a mistake or misjudgement? That would be awesome, but there are tons of games which flop and to work as an esport you also have an audience and for that you need people playing the game and interested in watching it.
The thing is that BW was a very successful game as an eSport which was limited only by the available streaming technology and the limited graphics from becoming successful worldwide. The current SC2 has several "improvements" and these dont work well to make the game flexible (keeping your army in a tight formation will always triumph over a spread out army), something that wasnt there in BW. So whatever Dustin says in that GDC is irrelevant, because you still have to do it right. Talk is cheap and it's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that defines you. [Batman Begins]
Currently they are trying to release a few half-baked units [Why else are the iterations of the units so wildly different if not because they didnt think/test them through thoroughly?] while the basic game has some major flaws and limitations which need to be fixed to have a greater longevity and flexibility for the game and gameplay. Dont misunderstand me, I like Starcraft and have waited for SC2 for years, but the current state is unplayable and has made the pro games rather boring after a while. I cant watch a game from start to end anymore, because they are all the same old "full army vs full army battles". This is very very critical and yet Blizzard fails to act. If they cant work on these changes because some managers are breathing down their necks with a "finish the expansion chop chop" it would be time for them to decide what is more important ... their job or the quality of their work. If they value quality as much as I do then they might even get help from the community to push some drastic changes through which would delay the expansion. Currently it looks like they value their jobs more, because the Warhound got scrapped without a replacement and they kinda frantically try to fix the rest of the bunch of new units. The new Oracle looks pretty untested (3 of them can easily tear down gas extractors and Time Warp is even more powerful). So why do you keep defending their work when it is obvious that it isnt good?
On October 28 2012 15:58 Patate wrote: I'm starting to think Blizzard is just lazy...
Just because you don't know how hard the team works does not mean they are lazy. It just means that you are not well informed.
Sorry, but this is kinda blind "Blizzard is great and you dont know how they work" is nonsensical propaganda, because most of the ideas which have come from Blizzard for the expansion so far have been downgrades (Reaper), completely absurd (Warhound, Time Warp, Widow Mine, ...) or simply either OP or useless in the concept of SC2 (Tempest, Swarm Host). In any case they didnt do anything about the suggestions of the community and simply tested some movement adjustment modification for five minutes and declared it useless (or rather unnecessary).
They totally fail to see the problems of the game and this is either from being too lazy to see it/do anything about it OR from being incapable of seeing it. Patate just chose the more polite one here, but the truth is that suggestions and problems have been made for months without them acknowledging the problems or even trying the solutions in earnest. They claim to be trying to make mech viable, but the only thing they came up with is yet another stupid unit which doesnt really work well together with the core unit of that type: the Siege Tank. Keep on defending Dustin and his bunch of bumbling fools, the problems are defined by now and the suggestions are there to get rid of them and the best ones dont involve any new units at all. So either they have too many holy cows OR they are too lazy to do it.
The most important part about it isnt actually DOING IT, but rather THINKING IT THROUGH and it is here where they seem to be lacking and it shows in their very very wildly different iterations of the units for HotS.
The Blizzard design team is the design team and has a design perspective. Players like to have it easy, viewers like to have it exciting.
And because they get paid for it they can never ever make a mistake or misjudgement? That would be awesome, but there are tons of games which flop and to work as an esport you also have an audience and for that you need people playing the game and interested in watching it.
The thing is that BW was a very successful game as an eSport which was limited only by the available streaming technology and the limited graphics from becoming successful worldwide. The current SC2 has several "improvements" and these dont work well to make the game flexible (keeping your army in a tight formation will always triumph over a spread out army), something that wasnt there in BW. So whatever Dustin says in that GDC is irrelevant, because you still have to do it right. Talk is cheap and it's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that defines you. [Batman Begins]
Currently they are trying to release a few half-baked units [Why else are the iterations of the units so wildly different if not because they didnt think/test them through thoroughly?] while the basic game has some major flaws and limitations which need to be fixed to have a greater longevity and flexibility for the game and gameplay. Dont misunderstand me, I like Starcraft and have waited for SC2 for years, but the current state is unplayable and has made the pro games rather boring after a while. I cant watch a game from start to end anymore, because they are all the same old "full army vs full army battles". This is very very critical and yet Blizzard fails to act. If they cant work on these changes because some managers are breathing down their necks with a "finish the expansion chop chop" it would be time for them to decide what is more important ... their job or the quality of their work. If they value quality as much as I do then they might even get help from the community to push some drastic changes through which would delay the expansion. Currently it looks like they value their jobs more, because the Warhound got scrapped without a replacement and they kinda frantically try to fix the rest of the bunch of new units. The new Oracle looks pretty untested (3 of them can easily tear down gas extractors and Time Warp is even more powerful). So why do you keep defending their work when it is obvious that it isnt good?
disagree. fungal, storm, emp, vortex, baneling, colossus, all encourages you to spread the army out. For example, TvP viking MMM against stalker colossus ball, Terran tries to split his army to take less from the splash of colossus. It's just hard to see and appreciate.
full army vs full army battle has some interesting dynamics, it does look boring but you can always appreciate how each players try to gain a better position or start from the engagement.
how to get the full army, how to win the full army battle ARE interesting. The problem I mainly see is a strong win by one deathball usually means GG even if you have better economy but cannot mass up fast enough to kill off the remaining units.
the level of balance does not matter so much right now. what we should help blizzard is to provide whether the idea of the unit is FUN or not. The unit itself doesn't even need to be FUN, it just needs to make the game FUN such as opening up to interesting timing push.
On October 28 2012 15:58 Patate wrote: I'm starting to think Blizzard is just lazy...
Just because you don't know how hard the team works does not mean they are lazy. It just means that you are not well informed.
Sorry, but this is kinda blind "Blizzard is great and you dont know how they work" is nonsensical propaganda, because most of the ideas which have come from Blizzard for the expansion so far have been downgrades (Reaper), completely absurd (Warhound, Time Warp, Widow Mine, ...) or simply either OP or useless in the concept of SC2 (Tempest, Swarm Host). In any case they didnt do anything about the suggestions of the community and simply tested some movement adjustment modification for five minutes and declared it useless (or rather unnecessary).
They totally fail to see the problems of the game and this is either from being too lazy to see it/do anything about it OR from being incapable of seeing it. Patate just chose the more polite one here, but the truth is that suggestions and problems have been made for months without them acknowledging the problems or even trying the solutions in earnest. They claim to be trying to make mech viable, but the only thing they came up with is yet another stupid unit which doesnt really work well together with the core unit of that type: the Siege Tank. Keep on defending Dustin and his bunch of bumbling fools, the problems are defined by now and the suggestions are there to get rid of them and the best ones dont involve any new units at all. So either they have too many holy cows OR they are too lazy to do it.
The most important part about it isnt actually DOING IT, but rather THINKING IT THROUGH and it is here where they seem to be lacking and it shows in their very very wildly different iterations of the units for HotS.
The Blizzard design team is the design team and has a design perspective. Players like to have it easy, viewers like to have it exciting.
Yeah, that's a really interesting lecture. I watched that a year or so ago and it helped me a lot in understanding SC2, especially with regard to the way counters are set up in the game, and the fact that the hard counters in the game are, perhaps, too hard. I'm hesitant, these days, about shouting "fix this, because it will solve the game!" as I really don't know, and I think there is enough difference in community opinion (or whining) for Blizzard to be wary of taking on board too much feedback. However, if there was one thing I would like in SC2, it is that counters should be softer so that more units are viable in a MU.
I'm happy, or can live with most other features of SC2 that "seem" (I am not sure they are) problematic like production boosts, pathing/movement, deathballs etc. This is also because I don't believe that SC2 is inherently broken or flawed in any critical way. It's a good game, perhaps even a very good one, and may yet become a great game depending on how HoTS goes and LoTV - if we get there. And if it does not get there? No worries. If crying about an internet game on the forums is the biggest of people's troubles, people might want to look up from their monitors and get some real problems to complain about.
On October 29 2012 08:49 Xanbatou wrote: Does anyone think that widow mines should have a tech lab requirement?
I was expecting this a few patches ago when you could toggle the missile fire and choose targets. I am happy with the direction they took instead to make counter micro so effective in exploiting their weaknesses.
Personally the only nerf I think needs to be considered at this stage is to prevent medivacs from picking them up.
Ah interesting. Never seen that before. So even back in 2005 when Blizzard started to develop Starcraft II they already did so with ESPORTS (back then largely a thing in Korea only) in mind. That's surprising, considering the shortcomings the game was shipped with in 2010. But I guess they got the core principles down, which gives hope for the future.
Ah interesting. Never seen that before. So even back in 2005 when Blizzard started to develop Starcraft II they already did so with ESPORTS (back then largely a thing in Korea only) in mind. That's surprising, considering the shortcomings the game was shipped with in 2010. But I guess they got the core principles down, which gives hope for the future.
You know I think the main difference between SC1 and SC2 may be just that. With SC1 they just wanted to make a cool fun game with three distinctly different races and playstyles. Only after they did that they started balancing shit out and did not really succeed until brood war and maybe not even then. But it was fun.
With SC2 they started out with worrying about making units or abilities too strong and while trying to make SC2 different from SC2 also somehow lost the eye for the distinctness of the races.
But I feel like they want to go back to the Fun First directive now. The oracle certainly seems like fun even though the 100 million zerg in HotS keep massacring me while I experiment with it -_- Seriously does anybody play something else than zerg in HotS...?
Anyway I am excited for the next patch and balance changes.
On October 29 2012 08:49 Xanbatou wrote: Does anyone think that widow mines should have a tech lab requirement?
I was expecting this a few patches ago when you could toggle the missile fire and choose targets. I am happy with the direction they took instead to make counter micro so effective in exploiting their weaknesses.
Personally the only nerf I think needs to be considered at this stage is to prevent medivacs from picking them up.
I dunno, I'm still very wary of how early they come out considering they are a cloaked unit. Having a tech lab requirement would at least delay them for a while. On second thought, what about an upgrade that cloaks them? Without the uprade they are visible but with the upgrade they are invisible?
You might argue that it basically makes them useless without the upgrade, but tanks are basically useless without the upgrade, but this sort of dynamic is present with many other units in all races.
I played with the new patch last night. In a PvZ, I went double stargate and got 4 oracles right away. Them plus a few phoenixes for lifts I sniped down the 3rd hatch before the zerg could do anything about it. Now granted, it's beta and everyone is more concerned with playing with the new toys than viable strategies, so I don't expect to be able to get out so many oracles so quickly and still be safe. That being said, I think getting 4-5 for late game PvZ could be pretty sick. Have them circumvent the zerg army and snipe down important tech structures. Could be cool
On October 30 2012 00:22 arcHoniC wrote: Changed PvT All in
proxy stargate into void ray and oracle
oracle for bunkers and VR stalker for marine IM PUMPED
Er, let's stay in perspective; the Oracle has not suddenly become a building-slayer. It would take 14 seconds to kill a bunker assuming no repairs, and only 4 seconds for the oracle itself to get torn apart by focus fire. You'd still be better off with 2 VRs for the purpose of an all-in as at least they can kill the marines. Proxy gate wins once 2+ fully-charged VRs are put into play against a terran build without a lot of early marines.
On October 29 2012 05:07 AmericanPsycho wrote: bring back oracle detection / mommacore energise, please blizzard!
I think detection on the mothership core is 1000x better. It means I can fully direct all my oracle energy to more important spells. And while energize wasn't the best idea. I liked one part about it, and that was how it created a new, much more thoughtful way to use chronoboost. As such I'd really like a change in the Protoss macro mechanic, even if it's not energize back. To me chronoboost isn't very significant or thoughtful on where the energy goes. Unlike the other races whose macro mechanics are essential for them to win games. Protoss can win games without using any chronoboost after their first couple on probes. When you could energize the nexus it allowed for some real chronoboost strategies and real thoughts about chronoboost allocation, which I liked a lot.
On October 30 2012 00:22 arcHoniC wrote: Changed PvT All in
proxy stargate into void ray and oracle
oracle for bunkers and VR stalker for marine IM PUMPED
Er, let's stay in perspective; the Oracle has not suddenly become a building-slayer. It would take 14 seconds to kill a bunker assuming no repairs, and only 4 seconds for the oracle itself to get torn apart by focus fire. You'd still be better off with 2 VRs for the purpose of an all-in as at least they can kill the marines. Proxy gate wins once 2+ fully-charged VRs are put into play against a terran build without a lot of early marines.
AHAHAHAHA just played against FFE into 2 stargate oracle. it is beyond OP how fast a hatch dies. 5 oracles just killed everything in 20 sec and with their high hp and speed there is nothing you can do lol. its beyond broken :D
On October 30 2012 00:22 arcHoniC wrote: Changed PvT All in
proxy stargate into void ray and oracle
oracle for bunkers and VR stalker for marine IM PUMPED
Er, let's stay in perspective; the Oracle has not suddenly become a building-slayer. It would take 14 seconds to kill a bunker assuming no repairs, and only 4 seconds for the oracle itself to get torn apart by focus fire. You'd still be better off with 2 VRs for the purpose of an all-in as at least they can kill the marines. Proxy gate wins once 2+ fully-charged VRs are put into play against a terran build without a lot of early marines.
You need to uninstall the game if you are killing bunkers with Oracles.
nice one! The spine crawler thing is soooo huge It completly changes the way (had) to play zerg. Finally, a wall that does not have to be destroyed later on again.
On October 30 2012 20:20 Salteador Neo wrote: I wonder if they will even consider making fungal not hit air. Would make WoL so much better for sure.
Edit: Oh wow that spine crawler change is sweet :o
Hell no it wouldn't. If fungal wouldn't hit air, storm shouldn't either. How would you like storm not being able to hit mutas anymore? Fungals not being able to scare away mutas? Ridiculous.
Fungal should just grant an 80% slow. That's a sort of diminishing return for chain fungals, especially against mutas and phoenixes due to their speed. Even if the first fungal hits everything, 2 or more fungals are needed after that to catch the fleeing units.
"...We believe that Pulsar Beam solves issues 1 and 2. Even in internal testing, we’re seeing a crystal clear difference when a Master level player uses it versus when a platinum player uses it, and there are always different degrees of success depending on how well the player uses it and how well the opponent counters it"
Can someone please explain this to me? Select X Oracles, destroy a building hitting ONE hotkey and get out before defending troops show up. Anyone can do this, barely any mico involved, right? So a masters player is supposed to do better because of what? mhmmm
edit: not suggesting that its supereasy...the ability to multitask is always a factor. but what does this spell offer pros to set them apart from lesser players?
On October 30 2012 22:11 iNviSible.yunO wrote: "...We believe that Pulsar Beam solves issues 1 and 2. Even in internal testing, we’re seeing a crystal clear difference when a Master level player uses it versus when a platinum player uses it, and there are always different degrees of success depending on how well the player uses it and how well the opponent counters it"
Can someone please explain this to me? Select X Oracles, destroy a building hitting ONE hotkey and get out before defending troops show up. Anyone can do this, barely any mico involved, right? So a masters player is supposed to do better because of what? mhmmm
edit: not suggesting that its supereasy...the ability to multitask is always a factor. but what does this spell offer pros to set them apart from lesser players?
Pros can keep it dancing around the base doing damage, retreat at the perfect time to lose only shields etc.
On October 30 2012 22:11 iNviSible.yunO wrote: "...We believe that Pulsar Beam solves issues 1 and 2. Even in internal testing, we’re seeing a crystal clear difference when a Master level player uses it versus when a platinum player uses it, and there are always different degrees of success depending on how well the player uses it and how well the opponent counters it"
Can someone please explain this to me? Select X Oracles, destroy a building hitting ONE hotkey and get out before defending troops show up. Anyone can do this, barely any mico involved, right? So a masters player is supposed to do better because of what? mhmmm
edit: not suggesting that its supereasy...the ability to multitask is always a factor. but what does this spell offer pros to set them apart from lesser players?
You can make anything look like just clicks on the keyboard and some mouse movements, but there is far more things involved in the oracle harass than you seem to know, for example: all players can get luck but only good players are able to make the enemy army move to the place they want, when they want, so the oracle harass can be done effectively. Not only that, oracle are fragile and expensive units that requires a lot of your screen time focus, their survivability depends on it's speed so you need to pay attention.
On October 30 2012 22:11 iNviSible.yunO wrote: "...We believe that Pulsar Beam solves issues 1 and 2. Even in internal testing, we’re seeing a crystal clear difference when a Master level player uses it versus when a platinum player uses it, and there are always different degrees of success depending on how well the player uses it and how well the opponent counters it"
Can someone please explain this to me? Select X Oracles, destroy a building hitting ONE hotkey and get out before defending troops show up. Anyone can do this, barely any mico involved, right? So a masters player is supposed to do better because of what? mhmmm
edit: not suggesting that its supereasy...the ability to multitask is always a factor. but what does this spell offer pros to set them apart from lesser players?
You can make anything look like just clicks on the keyboard and some mouse movements, but there is far more things involved in the oracle harass than you seem to know, for example: all players can get luck but only good players are able to make the enemy army move to the place they want, when they want, so the oracle harass can be done effectively. Not only that, oracle are fragile and expensive units that requires a lot of your screen time focus, their survivability depends on it's speed so you need to pay attention.
Yeah sure youre right. But thats the case with most flyers. I just miss the stuff that makes fancy micro possible. Dodging Lurker/reaver attacks, dragging mines into enemy tanks, abusing clifffs with carriers (leech range etc), ... Having a unit that attacks buildings by using up energy isnt the worst though, true. Maybe the oracle should slowly overheat when using the pulsar beam, leading to an explosion after 10 seconds IF the attack isnt chancelled. Stuff like this would truly give players opportunities to set themselfs apart....and, would make it more fun to watch!
On October 30 2012 22:11 iNviSible.yunO wrote: "...We believe that Pulsar Beam solves issues 1 and 2. Even in internal testing, we’re seeing a crystal clear difference when a Master level player uses it versus when a platinum player uses it, and there are always different degrees of success depending on how well the player uses it and how well the opponent counters it"
Can someone please explain this to me? Select X Oracles, destroy a building hitting ONE hotkey and get out before defending troops show up. Anyone can do this, barely any mico involved, right? So a masters player is supposed to do better because of what? mhmmm
edit: not suggesting that its supereasy...the ability to multitask is always a factor. but what does this spell offer pros to set them apart from lesser players?
Having the same unit also with Time Warp in its arsenal is kinda dumb, because with that spell you can basically defend while killing extractors (and thus stifling the tech of your opponent) early on. Basically this:
On October 30 2012 00:34 ThirdDegree wrote: I played with the new patch last night. In a PvZ, I went double stargate and got 4 oracles right away. Them plus a few phoenixes for lifts I sniped down the 3rd hatch before the zerg could do anything about it. Now granted, it's beta and everyone is more concerned with playing with the new toys than viable strategies, so I don't expect to be able to get out so many oracles so quickly and still be safe. That being said, I think getting 4-5 for late game PvZ could be pretty sick. Have them circumvent the zerg army and snipe down important tech structures. Could be cool
Ah interesting. Never seen that before. So even back in 2005 when Blizzard started to develop Starcraft II they already did so with ESPORTS (back then largely a thing in Korea only) in mind. That's surprising, considering the shortcomings the game was shipped with in 2010. But I guess they got the core principles down, which gives hope for the future.
You know I think the main difference between SC1 and SC2 may be just that. With SC1 they just wanted to make a cool fun game with three distinctly different races and playstyles. Only after they did that they started balancing shit out and did not really succeed until brood war and maybe not even then. But it was fun.
With SC2 they started out with worrying about making units or abilities too strong and while trying to make SC2 different from SC2 also somehow lost the eye for the distinctness of the races.
But I feel like they want to go back to the Fun First directive now. The oracle certainly seems like fun even though the 100 million zerg in HotS keep massacring me while I experiment with it -_- Seriously does anybody play something else than zerg in HotS...?
Anyway I am excited for the next patch and balance changes.
Personally I think they were like movie directors who come up with a sequel to a very good movie. That sequel has been designed to have a higher kill count (not as high as Hot Shots 2 though, which is the bloodiest film ever ) and they overlooked the total change in power which they would get from tighter ground unit formations. Unit dps is one thing, but "troop dps per area" is another and since they wanted to keep the values of the first near those of the units in BW we now have a game which works with lots of crutches like Forcefield ... which is necessary for very early defense for Protoss.
Sadly the "master game developer" Dustin doesnt seem to recognize the problems this caused OR he is too cowardly to do something about them other than trying to fix them with even more crutches (like the Widow Mine and Battle Hellion, which are supposed to make mech viable, but which will create more problems IMO).
"...We believe that Pulsar Beam solves issues 1 and 2. Even in internal testing, we’re seeing a crystal clear difference when a Master level player uses it versus when a platinum player uses it, and there are always different degrees of success depending on how well the player uses it and how well the opponent counters it"
Can someone please explain this to me? Select X Oracles, destroy a building hitting ONE hotkey and get out before defending troops show up. Anyone can do this, barely any mico involved, right? So a masters player is supposed to do better because of what? mhmmm
If you shift-queue Pulsar Beam it will cast at a range of 3, which is total shit and will probably put your fragile ass Oracle in danger. If you cast it normally it channels at a range of 5. If you micro it a bit however, you can get it up to range 6.
This means the difference between using it as a single click, fire and forget ability vs actively microing it is literally a matter of double the range.
Now, obviously any player can do that if its all they're focusing on...but thats true of 99% of the game--I suck but even I can execute a marine spread if I don't have to do anything else--the difficulty lies in multitask. And the Oracle is very well designed to offer different levels of reward for different levels of multitask. For players with sick apm, it has the effective range of a Void Ray, for those without those skills it is considerably less than that.
On October 30 2012 21:59 Big G wrote: Fungal should just grant an 80% slow. That's a sort of diminishing return for chain fungals, especially against mutas and phoenixes due to their speed. Even if the first fungal hits everything, 2 or more fungals are needed after that to catch the fleeing units.
I really hope Blizzard starts to consider this.
They should at least consider changing fungal so it doesn't root AIR units.
Something like 50% slow to air units, root ground units. It's quite logical too.
The Protoss of Auir were based on the Roman legion according to an old developer article on Computer Gaming World in 1996. I still have it in my mom's house.
Not sure about the Protoss of Shakuras. Besides DTs and corsairs, there's not much we know about their technology or methods.
EPT
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List of Unit and Building Sizes
and 
op?
op?![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/er5xJ.jpg)
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