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On October 28 2012 05:03 Kommatiazo wrote:
I must say, chargelot openings in PvT and PvP are BRUTAL now with timewarp. I really think it might get changed, but I honestly think they should keep it in, and in the same state and allow players to adjust to it's presence, unlike how they got rid of warhound. It is such an awesome spell that has basic uses at low levels (casting it over MMM and a-moving chargelots) and a lot of potential in high level play, especially combining it with other casters.
Even after one or two games with the new patch I was having to totally re-work my hotkey setup, especially for late-game. Trying to tab through sentries, templar, oracles, phoenixes, colossus, tempests, blink stalkers, warp prisms, observers in a battle is just laughable, but the multi-hotkey use is something that is definitely putting a high skill cap on getting the most out of the Protoss army. I LOVE IT. Even if I can't execute it perfectly, when I DO get off that TW->Storm->FF combo it is SO satisfying. Can't wait to see some games of Whitera, Grubby and other beta-ing Pro's to start wrecking shop with this stuff.
Man, I agree about the hotkey stuff. Really gonna have to keep Mothership Core off my main army hotkey as it overrides sentry spells/blink for priority. I already use a bunch of extra ones for multiple observers/HT/warp prisms/air units. Time to add one more!!! lol
On October 28 2012 05:53 joeschmo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 05:37 Yorbon wrote:On October 27 2012 17:35 avilo wrote:On October 27 2012 10:28 -Kyo- wrote:On October 27 2012 10:25 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On October 27 2012 09:56 -Kyo- wrote:
What in the F?????? Still no change to the widow mine? Who the hell is balancing this game? Jesus christ lmao.
To be rational about it:
Change Mine supply to 1
Build time cut by 1/4
Mine is destroyed when activated
Mine no longer targets air units
??? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's just WAY too strong right now. I seriously have no idea how it has survived 3 patches now. Mine's are easy to deal with as the game goes on. They can be scary early game if you screw up, but that's part of their power. They buy Terran time to get their infrastructure up and running so they can compete in the later parts of the game. What? lol They get more broken as the game goes on because they trade so cost effectively for gas heavy units. I'm not sure what game you're playing. Lol. He's playing the beta, you obviously aren't. He's correct in his assessment that the mines are what allow mech TvP to get running, and as the game goes into lategame you do not want more than 10 supply worth of mines on the map. Mines in HOTS allow Terran to pour vespene gas into factory and armory infrastructure without flat out dying to: DTS, void rays, blink stalkers so easily like in wings of liberty. You'll notice wings of liberty mech requires you to do crazy shit, like always make a starport, always need a raven, always need siege mode/tanks meaning you can never move out on the map, etc. When you're pouring 100 gas into a starport, 200 gas into a raven to protect vs DTS, 100 gas into an armory, 75 gas into vikings as the only realistic AA option...that's over 400-500 vespene gas dedicated to simply not dying to random all-ins and various things. What the widow mine does in HOTS is give Terran users a reliable way to pour all of that wings of liberty vespene gas into factories, allowing more possibilities for mech play in the match-up. As the game goes into the later stages, the mines become progressively weaker to the point where you want basically want no more than 4-5 mines on the map because they take away from your army value. Mines cannot fight against a lategame Protoss deathball of tempests + anything effectively. The problem now is the same problem that exists in wings of liberty for Terran - there is no mech anti-air option. Right now the only real option is "make a lot of vikings," which is a catch-22 because zerg and protoss ground units absolutely kill grounded vikings meaning in the scenario you kill the opponent's air, you're left with a bad army that dies to the ground remax, or the situation where your vikings die to their air + storms/fungals...you simply die. Sorry for the long post, just had to debunk your sensationalist bullshit about the mine being good lategame and OP with a logical post. I never thought it would happen, but i think i agree with you here. While i do think vikings are reasonable (but very hard) anti air for mech, i'd really love to see another anti-air option for mech. Maybe not much stronger, but one that fits the composition better. Maybe a viking change could be an answer for that as well. Wouldn't a +armor/massive tag for Thor anti-air be enough? I know Tempests have stupid long range, but with whatever unit you theorycraft, i'm certain it wouldn't have 16 range to hit the Tempest. Thor would then be good vs Broodlords as well.
The problem is that you need a mech AA unit that can also support against ground attacks, and one that you can mass reliably. Thors do decent vs Air in some cases, ok vs ground, but their supply/cost really makes it hard to justify building a lot of them.
Obviously, something like the Goliath would be perfect, here, but I also don't really want Blizzard to just port that unit into HotS.
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While i do think vikings are reasonable (but very hard) anti air for mech, i'd really love to see another anti-air option for mech. Maybe not much stronger, but one that fits the composition better. Maybe a viking change could be an answer for that as well.
2 extremely simple changes would make Mech 100% viable in TvP:
1.) Siege Tanks deal +25% damage vs shields.
2.) Ground Viking attack changed from 1 attack at 12 damage, to 2 attacks at 7 damage each. In additional, Landed Vikings benefit from mech upgrades rather than air upgrades (in the air they'd still count as air units, similar to how Hellions shift between bio and mech).
The first change substantially increases overall Tank viability vs. Protoss without altering in any way their performance in TvT and TvZ. Now directly engaging a clump of sieged tanks becomes a very bad idea for Protoss ground, which is how it should be. Also, Tanks are no longer super hard-countered by Archons.
The second change makes Landed Vikings an effective counter to Immortal Hardened shields--since 7 damage is below the hardened shield threshold, both attacks will hit at full value, similar to how Zealots work against Immortals. By partially scaling with mech upgrades, Vikings can be more easily incorporated into mech compositions. And unlike marines, landed vikings have equal range to Immortals.
These two straightforward fixes would solve the biggest issues with TvP mech currently--namely that Terran mech doesn't do enough damage vs Toss in a straight fight to justify the huge mobility tradeoff, and that Toss has easy access to extremely hard counters on the ground in Immortals and Archons. Yet they would have minimal effect on other matchups. Combined with Hellbats to kill Chargelots, Mech would be fully capable of beating a Protoss deathball in a straight-up fight, forcing Protoss to rely more on mobility advantages, which is really how it should be.
With Timewarp now in the game, mass bio is not going to be that great in lategame, because bio dies instantly if you can't kite effectively (on the other hand, Timewarp does literally nothing vs sieged tanks and well-positioned hellbats and mines, since they aren't really moving much during fights anyway). Personally, as someone who fucking hates giant bioballs and would much prefer to see Mech as the go-to lategame comp in TvP, I think this is a good thing. But the flip side is if you're improving Toss vs. bio, you HAVE to make mech viable, or Terran will simply lose constantly in TvP.
I think basically everyone, both Terran and Protoss, would rather Terran play a more mech-oriented style in TvP. Bio is cool in early game and even in the midgame, but immense clumps of units endlessly kiting just does not make for fun gameplay or spectating in lategame. Timewarp partially "fixes" this by nerfing giant bioballs vs Toss pretty hard...but in exchange, Mech needs a substantial buff. If Blizzard wants to jump through hoops making a new unit that fixes Mech in TVP, that isn't total shit like the Warhound was, they're welcome to. But personally I think they have everything they need to fix mech already in the game, they just need to tweak the numbers a bit.
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^ Doesn't solve the anti-air issues, and chargelots will still eat through mech because of friendly fire tank splash.
Also lol at viking ground mode being the counter to immortals.
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On October 28 2012 06:04 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +While i do think vikings are reasonable (but very hard) anti air for mech, i'd really love to see another anti-air option for mech. Maybe not much stronger, but one that fits the composition better. Maybe a viking change could be an answer for that as well. 2 extremely simple changes would make Mech 100% viable in TvP: 1.) Siege Tanks deal +25% damage vs shields. 2.) Ground Viking attack changed from 1 attack at 12 damage, to 2 attacks at 7 damage each. In additional, Landed Vikings benefit from mech upgrades rather than air upgrades (in the air they'd still count as air units, similar to how Hellions shift between bio and mech). The first change substantially increases overall Tank viability vs. Protoss without altering in any way their performance in TvT and TvZ. Now directly engaging a clump of sieged tanks becomes a very bad idea for Protoss ground, which is how it should be. Also, Tanks are no longer super hard-countered by Archons. The second change makes Landed Vikings an effective counter to Immortal Hardened shields--since 7 damage is below the hardened shield threshold, both attacks will hit at full value, similar to how Zealots work against Immortals. By partially scaling with mech upgrades, Vikings can be more easily incorporated into mech compositions. And unlike marines, landed vikings have equal range to Immortals. These two straightforward fixes would solve the biggest issues with TvP mech currently--namely that Terran mech doesn't do enough damage vs Toss in a straight fight to justify the huge mobility tradeoff, and that Toss has easy access to extremely hard counters on the ground in Immortals and Archons. Yet they would have minimal effect on other matchups. Combined with Hellbats to kill Chargelots, Mech would be fully capable of beating a Protoss deathball in a straight-up fight, forcing Protoss to rely more on mobility advantages, which is really how it should be. With Timewarp now in the game, mass bio is not going to be that great in lategame, because bio dies instantly if you can't kite effectively (on the other hand, Timewarp does literally nothing vs sieged tanks and well-positioned hellbats and mines, since they aren't really moving much during fights anyway). Personally, as someone who fucking hates giant bioballs and would much prefer to see Mech as the go-to lategame comp in TvP, I think this is a good thing. But the flip side is if you're improving Toss vs. bio, you HAVE to make mech viable, or Terran will simply lose constantly in TvP. I think basically everyone, both Terran and Protoss, would rather Terran play a more mech-oriented style in TvP. Bio is cool in early game and even in the midgame, but immense clumps of units endlessly kiting just does not make for fun gameplay or spectating in lategame. Timewarp partially "fixes" this by nerfing giant bioballs vs Toss pretty hard...but in exchange, Mech needs a substantial buff. If Blizzard wants to jump through hoops making a new unit that fixes Mech in TVP, that isn't total shit like the Warhound was, they're welcome to. But personally I think they have everything they need to fix mech already in the game, they just need to tweak the numbers a bit.
I wouldn't agree with both changes you mentioned, I would be ok with one or the other, strongly being in favor of the second option. Any way to give reliable AA that doesn't also detract too horribly from the ground army is the way to fix mech, IMO.
I do agree that mech is just a couple tweaks away from being pretty solid, there's no real need for a new unit. Widow Mines and Hellbats added all that Terran needed for the ground portion, it's just the AA that needs a solution.
On October 28 2012 06:08 Laurens wrote:
^ Doesn't solve the anti-air issues, and chargelots will still eat through mech because of friendly fire tank splash.
Also lol at viking ground mode being the counter to immortals.
...did you even read the post?
Vikings are amazing AA, it's just that right now they take away way too much from the ground army. What he proposed goes a long way towards fixing that problem. Chargelot effectiveness vs mech is GREATLY reduced with addition of blueflame Hellbats.
And, yes, 2 attacks at 7 damage each would very much counter Immortals, for the exact same reason Zealots do, as he mentioned in his post if you actually bothered to read it....
Do you even play Starcraft? o_O
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On October 28 2012 04:40 Crawdad wrote:
Pulsar Beam is better than I thought, I reckoned it would be all about Time Warp, but nah.
Now the neglected spell is Revelation. I think it should cost 50 energy, or it will always take away from the more powerful abilities. Or it should be more useful somehow. Also, I think that the names of Envision and Revelation should be switched.
Haha, good point. I agree with you 
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On October 28 2012 06:22 Freeborn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 04:40 Crawdad wrote:
Pulsar Beam is better than I thought, I reckoned it would be all about Time Warp, but nah.
Now the neglected spell is Revelation. I think it should cost 50 energy, or it will always take away from the more powerful abilities. Or it should be more useful somehow. Also, I think that the names of Envision and Revelation should be switched. Haha, good point. I agree with you
I think it's supposed to take away from the more powerful abilities... hence the tension in spending your energy.
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On October 28 2012 06:17 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 06:04 awesomoecalypse wrote:While i do think vikings are reasonable (but very hard) anti air for mech, i'd really love to see another anti-air option for mech. Maybe not much stronger, but one that fits the composition better. Maybe a viking change could be an answer for that as well. 2 extremely simple changes would make Mech 100% viable in TvP: 1.) Siege Tanks deal +25% damage vs shields. 2.) Ground Viking attack changed from 1 attack at 12 damage, to 2 attacks at 7 damage each. In additional, Landed Vikings benefit from mech upgrades rather than air upgrades (in the air they'd still count as air units, similar to how Hellions shift between bio and mech). The first change substantially increases overall Tank viability vs. Protoss without altering in any way their performance in TvT and TvZ. Now directly engaging a clump of sieged tanks becomes a very bad idea for Protoss ground, which is how it should be. Also, Tanks are no longer super hard-countered by Archons. The second change makes Landed Vikings an effective counter to Immortal Hardened shields--since 7 damage is below the hardened shield threshold, both attacks will hit at full value, similar to how Zealots work against Immortals. By partially scaling with mech upgrades, Vikings can be more easily incorporated into mech compositions. And unlike marines, landed vikings have equal range to Immortals. These two straightforward fixes would solve the biggest issues with TvP mech currently--namely that Terran mech doesn't do enough damage vs Toss in a straight fight to justify the huge mobility tradeoff, and that Toss has easy access to extremely hard counters on the ground in Immortals and Archons. Yet they would have minimal effect on other matchups. Combined with Hellbats to kill Chargelots, Mech would be fully capable of beating a Protoss deathball in a straight-up fight, forcing Protoss to rely more on mobility advantages, which is really how it should be. With Timewarp now in the game, mass bio is not going to be that great in lategame, because bio dies instantly if you can't kite effectively (on the other hand, Timewarp does literally nothing vs sieged tanks and well-positioned hellbats and mines, since they aren't really moving much during fights anyway). Personally, as someone who fucking hates giant bioballs and would much prefer to see Mech as the go-to lategame comp in TvP, I think this is a good thing. But the flip side is if you're improving Toss vs. bio, you HAVE to make mech viable, or Terran will simply lose constantly in TvP. I think basically everyone, both Terran and Protoss, would rather Terran play a more mech-oriented style in TvP. Bio is cool in early game and even in the midgame, but immense clumps of units endlessly kiting just does not make for fun gameplay or spectating in lategame. Timewarp partially "fixes" this by nerfing giant bioballs vs Toss pretty hard...but in exchange, Mech needs a substantial buff. If Blizzard wants to jump through hoops making a new unit that fixes Mech in TVP, that isn't total shit like the Warhound was, they're welcome to. But personally I think they have everything they need to fix mech already in the game, they just need to tweak the numbers a bit. I wouldn't agree with both changes you mentioned, I would be ok with one or the other, strongly being in favor of the second option. Any way to give reliable AA that doesn't also detract too horribly from the ground army is the way to fix mech, IMO. I do agree that mech is just a couple tweaks away from being pretty solid, there's no real need for a new unit. Widow Mines and Hellbats added all that Terran needed for the ground portion, it's just the AA that needs a solution. Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 06:08 Laurens wrote:
^ Doesn't solve the anti-air issues, and chargelots will still eat through mech because of friendly fire tank splash.
Also lol at viking ground mode being the counter to immortals.
...did you even read the post? Vikings are amazing AA, it's just that right now they take away way too much from the ground army. What he proposed goes a long way towards fixing that problem. Chargelot effectiveness vs mech is GREATLY reduced with addition of blueflame Hellbats. And, yes, 2 attacks at 7 damage each would very much counter Immortals, for the exact same reason Zealots do, as he mentioned in his post if you actually bothered to read it.... Do you even play Starcraft? o_O
Yes, I read his post.
Yes, I play starcraft, GM on HotS beta and top 8 master on WoL EU.
Vikings are not amazing AA, they are supply and cost ineffective vs protoss air.
Blueflame hellbat does the same damage as a blueflame hellion, except 3 less range hence less splash. The fac that it's in a cone rather than a line might make up for this somewhat, but not much. The biggest difference is hellbats have more HP, but again tank splash. (not to mention archons hit them hard now that they're bio.)
immortals 3-shot vikings, what a counter rofl. Also GL targetting the immortals with your vikings if there's 20 chargelots in the way.
Read morrow's thoughts on mech here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6934366347?page=1
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On October 28 2012 03:08 AbideWithMe wrote:
@Freeborn:
Please tell me how this makes the game anymore interesting for Terrans. Interesting in the sense of frustrating and "Fuck why toss so op" and for zerg it will be more interesting in the sense of building mutas or fast infestor every single game because otherwise you die to oracles either through harass or this crazy time warp crap.
So yeah PvP is definitely going to be more interesting. and it will be really interesting to see if we ever see a terran in the ladder again.
This makes the game more fun:
-because protoss can actually use more different builds
-because stargate tech becomes viable
-because good players can do amazing things with oracles while bad players just lose them
-because time warp is an amazing thing to watch
-because you do not need to go observer every time simply to not die to early terran pushes
Did you actually play HotS? If not don't cry OP just because you feel your race threatened.
Widow mines are ridiculous right now as well - They kill observers. Any terran with widow mines out will force hise opponent to play and move around the map extremely carefully and have detection at any time.
That being said though the balance process is ongoing, but the abilities should definetely stay, because they make sense and are fun.
I think help for terran in the form of some late game upgrade would be sensible.
Also I'm pretty sure the in the current state you could straight out buff the siegetank damage while maybe making the switch to siege mode take a bit longer without breaking the game, since tempests and blinding cloud ar epretty gould at countering them.
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Couple of thoughts:
1. It would be awesome if Time Warp affected friendly units. Does it?
2. I'm a tiny bit concerned that Zerg is getting left behind in the late-game harassment stakes. We are going to see SO many Protoss wins off the back of Oracle hit squads demolishing tech buildings and expansions, and Terrans have always had really potent drops. Maybe it's time for baneling burrow-move to reappear at hive? 
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 28 2012 06:35 Umpteen wrote:Couple of thoughts: 1. It would be awesome if Time Warp affected friendly units. Does it? 2. I'm a tiny bit concerned that Zerg is getting left behind in the late-game harassment stakes. We are going to see SO many Protoss wins off the back of Oracle hit squads demolishing tech buildings and expansions, and Terrans have always had really potent drops. Maybe it's time for baneling burrow-move to reappear at hive?
1. I feel that time warp would kind of be pointless if it afftected friendly units. It's to help gateway units early game, especially zealots actually hit stuff. If it hit your own zealots I'm not sure why it'd ever be used.
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Time Warp is a misnomer, anyway.
If it were really distorting time, it would slow everything, not just movement speed.
It's also dumb that a temporal distortion only hits ground, while fungus hits the air.
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Did you actually play HotS? If not don't cry OP just because you feel your race threatened.
Widow mines are ridiculous right now as well - They kill observers. Any terran with widow mines out will force hise opponent to play and move around the map extremely carefully and have detection at any time.
That being said though the balance process is ongoing, but the abilities should definetely stay, because they make sense and are fun.
I play HotS, i am 8 top master on WoL, and Gm (ahah) on HotS, and yes, atm, give huge up to protoss and zerg, without give anything to terran, broke late game.
It was always hard for me to play against chargelot / archon / ht / colossus, it is impossible for me to play against that + oracle. Same against Zerg and cloud blinding which is just too powerful cuz it disable 2 / 4 / 6 tanks (but it is so underused...). I don't whine, because it's a beta, but until next patch, it will be difficult to motivate to play on Hots cuz i know late game PvT and ZvT are totally broken.
I have a little suggestion to make mech viable : Feedback only on Bio unit. It is simple, it always counters Infestor / Ghost / Queen, but Raven / Bc / Thor could be a little more effective (it will need other changes after, it's just a first step).
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On October 28 2012 06:39 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 06:35 Umpteen wrote:Couple of thoughts: 1. It would be awesome if Time Warp affected friendly units. Does it? 2. I'm a tiny bit concerned that Zerg is getting left behind in the late-game harassment stakes. We are going to see SO many Protoss wins off the back of Oracle hit squads demolishing tech buildings and expansions, and Terrans have always had really potent drops. Maybe it's time for baneling burrow-move to reappear at hive? 1. I feel that time warp would kind of be pointless if it afftected friendly units. It's to help gateway units early game, especially zealots actually hit stuff. If it hit your own zealots I'm not sure why it'd ever be used.
Hmm. You know what? I think you're correct. I'd envisioned it in the later game, where you would need to decide if you're Timewarping offensively (aiming BEYOND the front line of his troops so it works like a soft force-field) or defensively ( aiming ahead of his troops so you get more shooting time before his damage ramps up or more time to run away). But of course we have to think about stargate openings being viable, and that will be all about how much help Oracles can be to basic zealot/stalker armies in small numbers (where forcefield would be better for preventing enemy retreat anyway).
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On October 28 2012 06:35 Umpteen wrote:Couple of thoughts: 1. It would be awesome if Time Warp affected friendly units. Does it? 2. I'm a tiny bit concerned that Zerg is getting left behind in the late-game harassment stakes. We are going to see SO many Protoss wins off the back of Oracle hit squads demolishing tech buildings and expansions, and Terrans have always had really potent drops. Maybe it's time for baneling burrow-move to reappear at hive?
Time Warp does not affect friendly units. It only slows the move speed of enemy ground units.
Zerg is pretty fine with harass. They don't need some new unit to do it.
On October 28 2012 06:42 Crawdad wrote:
Time Warp is a misnomer, anyway.
If it were really distorting time, it would slow everything, not just movement speed.
It's also dumb that a temporal distortion only hits ground, while fungus hits the air.
Yes, I expected an attack speed decrease as well.
Sadly, only enemy move speed is affected.
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On October 28 2012 06:49 yolteotl wrote:Show nested quote +
Did you actually play HotS? If not don't cry OP just because you feel your race threatened.
Widow mines are ridiculous right now as well - They kill observers. Any terran with widow mines out will force hise opponent to play and move around the map extremely carefully and have detection at any time.
That being said though the balance process is ongoing, but the abilities should definetely stay, because they make sense and are fun.
I play HotS, i am 8 top master on WoL, and Gm (ahah) on HotS, and yes, atm, give huge up to protoss and zerg, without give anything to terran, broke late game. It was always hard for me to play against chargelot / archon / ht / colossus, it is impossible for me to play against that + oracle. Same against Zerg and cloud blinding which is just too powerful cuz it disable 2 / 4 / 6 tanks (but it is so underused...). I don't whine, because it's a beta, but until next patch, it will be difficult to motivate to play on Hots cuz i know late game PvT and ZvT are totally broken. I have a little suggestion to make mech viable : Feedback only on Bio unit. It is simple, it always counters Infestor / Ghost / Queen, but Raven / Bc / Thor could be a little more effective (it will need other changes after, it's just a first step).
Ha, ok.
Well you are probably right that terran lategame needs some form of buff. I just think they should keep the good stuff they have right now and then add to terran what is missing to fight against the new protoss/zerg options.
I am sure blizzard will add something more to terran later on or make some changes to the existing units (since terrans already have so many specialized units)
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When you say 'fine' with regards to zerg late-game harassment, what exactly are you referring to?
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On October 28 2012 07:21 Umpteen wrote:
When you say 'fine' with regards to zerg late-game harassment, what exactly are you referring to?
constant ling runbys? mutas? burrowed infestors spawning ITs everywhere?
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So they turned the oracle into a voidray that can only target buildings? Um...
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On October 28 2012 08:42 Thorrissey wrote:
So they turned the oracle into a voidray that can only target buildings? Um...
Void Rays don't have Time Warp.
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On October 28 2012 08:42 Thorrissey wrote:
So they turned the oracle into a voidray that can only target buildings? Um...
How can people even post bullshits like this? I mean, really?
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EPT
