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On October 26 2012 13:28 Rabiator wrote:
I am not saying that Time Warp is a bad design - it certainly is better than the previous two most used "battlefield changing spells" (FF and FG), but there is an issue with these things which makes the whole thing rather "lopsided" and "imbalanced". If we look at the spells which "change the battlefield" you will notice someone is being left out ... and that isnt a good thing, because of the imbalance it creates.
Zerg
Fungal Growth
Protoss
Force Field
Vortex
Time Warp
Terran
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Personally I dont like this and I think Terrans should be able to "build destructible debris" (REAL walls) for a relatively low cost. As a military commander that is one of the first things I would have told my troops to learn when facing hordes of Zerg and psychic aliens. Bunkers are luxury apartments and much too expensive for just a handful of guys and I would like to protect the expensive hardware much better.
EDIT: I would have much preferred for Blizzard to change Fungal Growth into a "movement slow" instead of a "movement lockdown" spell and Forcefield to be destructible instead, but now they give Protoss yet another "battlefield modifier" and on a flying unit ... which makes it immune to Roaches and Zerglings and so on. That is VERY powerful and will probably save A LOT of Colossi over time and might thus be overpowered.
Exactly, any spell that controls the movement of the enemy units is bad from the last 2 years of SC2 experience. It shows that people at Blizzard just doesn't know generalization. It's so obvious that all the movement control spells in WOL are those people hate so much. The Time Warp will be criticized to hell after 1 year into HOTS release, just like the situation of fungal growth and force field now. People blindly love it in TL, BN, and Reddit. I just can't believe people just don't learn lessons. Just like all the financial crises. Sigh.
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On October 26 2012 13:56 HowardRoark wrote:
hopefully this mean blizz will remove ffi
elds completely from the game!
What would be the point of the Sentry without Forcefield?
Forcefield is "necessary" as the early defense for Protoss (as if Cannons and wall-ins wouldnt do the job) and will probably remain. Sadly Blizzard seems to be bent on Starcraft becoming a "real time ACTION" game and thus they wont do anything to help defensive structures.
On October 26 2012 14:00 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 13:28 Rabiator wrote:
I am not saying that Time Warp is a bad design - it certainly is better than the previous two most used "battlefield changing spells" (FF and FG), but there is an issue with these things which makes the whole thing rather "lopsided" and "imbalanced". If we look at the spells which "change the battlefield" you will notice someone is being left out ... and that isnt a good thing, because of the imbalance it creates.
Zerg
Fungal Growth
Protoss
Force Field
Vortex
Time Warp
Terran
-
Personally I dont like this and I think Terrans should be able to "build destructible debris" (REAL walls) for a relatively low cost. As a military commander that is one of the first things I would have told my troops to learn when facing hordes of Zerg and psychic aliens. Bunkers are luxury apartments and much too expensive for just a handful of guys and I would like to protect the expensive hardware much better.
EDIT: I would have much preferred for Blizzard to change Fungal Growth into a "movement slow" instead of a "movement lockdown" spell and Forcefield to be destructible instead, but now they give Protoss yet another "battlefield modifier" and on a flying unit ... which makes it immune to Roaches and Zerglings and so on. That is VERY powerful and will probably save A LOT of Colossi over time and might thus be overpowered. Exactly, any spell that controls the movement of the enemy units is bad from the last 2 years of SC2 experience. It shows that people at Blizzard just doesn't know generalization. It's so obvious that all the movement control spells in WOL are those people hate so much. The Time Warp will be criticized to hell after 1 year into HOTS release, just like the situation of fungal growth and force field now. People blindly love it in TL, BN, and Reddit. I just can't believe people just don't learn lessons. Just like all the financial crises. Sigh.
They "love" that spell because it is less terrible than the other two ...
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United States7483 Posts
On October 26 2012 14:00 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 13:28 Rabiator wrote:
I am not saying that Time Warp is a bad design - it certainly is better than the previous two most used "battlefield changing spells" (FF and FG), but there is an issue with these things which makes the whole thing rather "lopsided" and "imbalanced". If we look at the spells which "change the battlefield" you will notice someone is being left out ... and that isnt a good thing, because of the imbalance it creates.
Zerg
Fungal Growth
Protoss
Force Field
Vortex
Time Warp
Terran
-
Personally I dont like this and I think Terrans should be able to "build destructible debris" (REAL walls) for a relatively low cost. As a military commander that is one of the first things I would have told my troops to learn when facing hordes of Zerg and psychic aliens. Bunkers are luxury apartments and much too expensive for just a handful of guys and I would like to protect the expensive hardware much better.
EDIT: I would have much preferred for Blizzard to change Fungal Growth into a "movement slow" instead of a "movement lockdown" spell and Forcefield to be destructible instead, but now they give Protoss yet another "battlefield modifier" and on a flying unit ... which makes it immune to Roaches and Zerglings and so on. That is VERY powerful and will probably save A LOT of Colossi over time and might thus be overpowered. Exactly, any spell that controls the movement of the enemy units is bad from the last 2 years of SC2 experience. It shows that people at Blizzard just doesn't know generalization. It's so obvious that all the movement control spells in WOL are those people hate so much. The Time Warp will be criticized to hell after 1 year into HOTS release, just like the situation of fungal growth and force field now. People blindly love it in TL, BN, and Reddit. I just can't believe people just don't learn lessons. Just like all the financial crises. Sigh.
I don't recall anyone from Brood War complaining about how overpowered the BW Queen was, and it had a spell very similar to time warp.
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On October 26 2012 14:03 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 14:00 larse wrote:On October 26 2012 13:28 Rabiator wrote:
I am not saying that Time Warp is a bad design - it certainly is better than the previous two most used "battlefield changing spells" (FF and FG), but there is an issue with these things which makes the whole thing rather "lopsided" and "imbalanced". If we look at the spells which "change the battlefield" you will notice someone is being left out ... and that isnt a good thing, because of the imbalance it creates.
Zerg
Fungal Growth
Protoss
Force Field
Vortex
Time Warp
Terran
-
Personally I dont like this and I think Terrans should be able to "build destructible debris" (REAL walls) for a relatively low cost. As a military commander that is one of the first things I would have told my troops to learn when facing hordes of Zerg and psychic aliens. Bunkers are luxury apartments and much too expensive for just a handful of guys and I would like to protect the expensive hardware much better.
EDIT: I would have much preferred for Blizzard to change Fungal Growth into a "movement slow" instead of a "movement lockdown" spell and Forcefield to be destructible instead, but now they give Protoss yet another "battlefield modifier" and on a flying unit ... which makes it immune to Roaches and Zerglings and so on. That is VERY powerful and will probably save A LOT of Colossi over time and might thus be overpowered. Exactly, any spell that controls the movement of the enemy units is bad from the last 2 years of SC2 experience. It shows that people at Blizzard just doesn't know generalization. It's so obvious that all the movement control spells in WOL are those people hate so much. The Time Warp will be criticized to hell after 1 year into HOTS release, just like the situation of fungal growth and force field now. People blindly love it in TL, BN, and Reddit. I just can't believe people just don't learn lessons. Just like all the financial crises. Sigh. I don't recall anyone from Brood War complaining about how overpowered the BW Queen was, and it had a spell very similar to time warp.
Who says those spells are overpowered. What I said it's that those are badly-designed spells. The movement control spells promote those annoying situations for both players and spectators. Force field is widely considered annoying for players. And fungal, force field, and vortex are all not awesome to spectate.
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On October 26 2012 14:03 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 14:00 larse wrote:On October 26 2012 13:28 Rabiator wrote:
I am not saying that Time Warp is a bad design - it certainly is better than the previous two most used "battlefield changing spells" (FF and FG), but there is an issue with these things which makes the whole thing rather "lopsided" and "imbalanced". If we look at the spells which "change the battlefield" you will notice someone is being left out ... and that isnt a good thing, because of the imbalance it creates.
Zerg
Fungal Growth
Protoss
Force Field
Vortex
Time Warp
Terran
-
Personally I dont like this and I think Terrans should be able to "build destructible debris" (REAL walls) for a relatively low cost. As a military commander that is one of the first things I would have told my troops to learn when facing hordes of Zerg and psychic aliens. Bunkers are luxury apartments and much too expensive for just a handful of guys and I would like to protect the expensive hardware much better.
EDIT: I would have much preferred for Blizzard to change Fungal Growth into a "movement slow" instead of a "movement lockdown" spell and Forcefield to be destructible instead, but now they give Protoss yet another "battlefield modifier" and on a flying unit ... which makes it immune to Roaches and Zerglings and so on. That is VERY powerful and will probably save A LOT of Colossi over time and might thus be overpowered. Exactly, any spell that controls the movement of the enemy units is bad from the last 2 years of SC2 experience. It shows that people at Blizzard just doesn't know generalization. It's so obvious that all the movement control spells in WOL are those people hate so much. The Time Warp will be criticized to hell after 1 year into HOTS release, just like the situation of fungal growth and force field now. People blindly love it in TL, BN, and Reddit. I just can't believe people just don't learn lessons. Just like all the financial crises. Sigh. I don't recall anyone from Brood War complaining about how overpowered the BW Queen was, and it had a spell very similar to time warp.
The Queen wasnt really overpowered, because Ensnare cost 75 energy and only slowed the units movement and attack speed down but didnt deal damage or lock them down entirely. There also werent that many Queens used usually and that made it "bearable". With the expensive Colossi and the critical importance of saving them Time Warp will be MUCH stronger and you didnt have 30% of your army clumped up in one spot in BW which was threatened to be overwhelmed by the enemy as you can easily have in SC2. The general mechanics of
- spread out units (for attacker and defender),
- limited number of units per control group and
- lack of "expensive siege units which everything revolves around"
made Ensnare in BW "theoretically overpowered" but practically not. It is the same stupid dilemma which SC2 faces on every corner and apparently you didnt see it.
tl;dr
BW didnt have deathballs and tightly clumped up armies and thus Ensnare was ok ...
ADDENDUM: In BW "overpowered" didnt matter because you didnt hit the whole army with just a few spells; in SC2 "overpowered" is a HUGE problem because you can lose TONS of units with a few of critically placed spells or AoE attacks. This is the real reason why SC2 is terrible and why it makes adding "new and funky units" hard. They are simply terribly hard to balance ... much harder than they should be and thus Blizzard *should be* focusing on making the game more like BW so they can go funky with their units in the expansions. Sadly they are too stubborn to admit the failure of the WoL design.
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Time warp seems like a much more interesting spell than entomb, so I really like this change. Time warp also opens up an opportunity for Blizzard to find alternatives to forcefield and fungal that do not immobilize targets and remove vortex from the game.
Using time warp on broodlords could make catching up to them and vortexing them with a mothership significantly easier (and possibly overpowered), and time warp could represent an alternative to forcefield in the mid to late game which wouldn't deny micro and wouldn't play such a significant role in determining the outcome of battles.
With forcefield replaced by time warp, fungal growth in its current form would not be as important in denying mid-game protoss pushes, and fungal could be changed to a movement slow or something similar.
The reason I think fungal, forcefield, and vortex should be changed/removed is summarized by Gretorp in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376188
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I like it already I think it gives another good factor that protoss needs to use REALLY WELL to get the spell working you can't just go do it somewhere enemy's army retreat path, because you have to take in consider that the retreating army can split to multiple paths, so you have to think ahead what would be the best place to put it to get the biggest part of the army slowed.
Just like force field you have to put them good places, but you can't really catch already fleeting army with them because they can be e.x. stimmed or just have incredible speed like lings and roaches etc. so with combined with Time Warp you can have a slight chance with good placed time warp to make them slower and catch them with force field.
Including storm you have to think where the army is and going to be when the high templar is nearing enemy's army.
Force Field and Storm are the current X factors that play good role in protoss army and now including Time Warp I think it's going to just blossom more like in example make time warp and cast storm or cast time warp and cast force field.
These are my thoughts EU Protoss GM
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-wrong thread-
sorry for posting
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On October 26 2012 07:04 kcdc wrote:
Time warp ain't a harassment spell guys. You're not gonna spend precious energy on slowing workers for a few seconds.
well, you might if it's got a long duration, and/or slows mining rate as well as movement. long duration won't be too useful in an army fight.
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I can already see the mass of terrans complaining that they can no longer micro. Ive seen like 7 threads already of how about fungal should not have its rooting effect. Time warp is basically a light version of fungal in the sense that it will allow slower units to catch faster units (stimmed marine marauder?) and will also prevent retreats.
The potential for time warp and storm is amazing, I wonder how it will all play out...
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On October 26 2012 15:46 theBlues wrote:
I can already see the mass of terrans complaining that they can no longer micro. Ive seen like 7 threads already of how about fungal should not have its rooting effect. Time warp is basically a light version of fungal in the sense that it will allow slower units to catch faster units (stimmed marine marauder?) and will also prevent retreats.
The potential for time warp and storm is amazing, I wonder how it will all play out...
Well can you blame them? Micro is the only thing keeping terran alive. Try and do a 1a against a protoss with collosus and storm and tell me what happens. If you limit how bio can be microed, then terran could be in alot of trouble, espcially seing as mech aint gonna be viable for release, so its bio or die
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This breaks bio lategame, I don't know if that's a good idea, despite me being a toss player. Storm would have to be changed.
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If this is a cool new gameplay mechanic, let it play out without crying imbalance from the get go. We have no idea how this might fit into the new meta, and the responses Terran may come up with over time. Let it be and see how it goes.
This kind of over reaction may be why we cant have nice things despite always shouting that we want nice things.
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On October 26 2012 00:00 rpgalon wrote:
EDIT: also, like the guy after me pointed out, TW+Storm looks stupidly strong. Keep it in perspective, force fields + storm sounds a lot scarier on paper, and it isn't that big of a deal in real games.
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I feel like the last thing Protoss ever needed was another zoning ability
with all that long ranged Units (Carrier,Tempest,Colossus) and already storms and ff in the portfolio - I dont see any need for this kind of Spell.
tbh it feels like an ultra shitty fungal (no full stun/dmg XD
but to judge about it we need some weeks to pass...
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On October 26 2012 14:08 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 14:03 Whitewing wrote:On October 26 2012 14:00 larse wrote:On October 26 2012 13:28 Rabiator wrote:
I am not saying that Time Warp is a bad design - it certainly is better than the previous two most used "battlefield changing spells" (FF and FG), but there is an issue with these things which makes the whole thing rather "lopsided" and "imbalanced". If we look at the spells which "change the battlefield" you will notice someone is being left out ... and that isnt a good thing, because of the imbalance it creates.
Zerg
Fungal Growth
Protoss
Force Field
Vortex
Time Warp
Terran
-
Personally I dont like this and I think Terrans should be able to "build destructible debris" (REAL walls) for a relatively low cost. As a military commander that is one of the first things I would have told my troops to learn when facing hordes of Zerg and psychic aliens. Bunkers are luxury apartments and much too expensive for just a handful of guys and I would like to protect the expensive hardware much better.
EDIT: I would have much preferred for Blizzard to change Fungal Growth into a "movement slow" instead of a "movement lockdown" spell and Forcefield to be destructible instead, but now they give Protoss yet another "battlefield modifier" and on a flying unit ... which makes it immune to Roaches and Zerglings and so on. That is VERY powerful and will probably save A LOT of Colossi over time and might thus be overpowered. Exactly, any spell that controls the movement of the enemy units is bad from the last 2 years of SC2 experience. It shows that people at Blizzard just doesn't know generalization. It's so obvious that all the movement control spells in WOL are those people hate so much. The Time Warp will be criticized to hell after 1 year into HOTS release, just like the situation of fungal growth and force field now. People blindly love it in TL, BN, and Reddit. I just can't believe people just don't learn lessons. Just like all the financial crises. Sigh. I don't recall anyone from Brood War complaining about how overpowered the BW Queen was, and it had a spell very similar to time warp. Who says those spells are overpowered. What I said it's that those are badly-designed spells. The movement control spells promote those annoying situations for both players and spectators. Force field is widely considered annoying for players. And fungal, force field, and vortex are all not awesome to spectate.
That might be a bit more subjective than saying something like "entomb is just not awesome to spectate"
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Zerg
Fungal Growth
Protoss
Force Field
Vortex
Time Warp
Terran
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More or less this. Entomb was terrible, extremely poorly designed, and should be gone. This is agreeable. However Protoss definitely doesn't need anymore utility and another AoE.
On October 26 2012 13:28 MiND.GaMeS wrote:This unit concept is good and actually amazingly raises the skillgap between good players and lucky players. Stuff like this is always good!
Not really. From a skill-cap perspective timewarp + storm spam is an "instawin" combo. Theoretically it takes silver level APM to preform, and master level APM to dodge.
It'll lead to a lot of lesser Protoss players getting wins they don't deserve, however it isn't out exactly yet. We'll have to wait and see.
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I like how the Oracle is forcing Terran to have to use all 3 production air-land-bio to fend off a Protoss.
Challenge accepted.
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It sounds like one big giant premature ejaculation to me... How can you trumpet this without giving it some time
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I can't wait to see the blink stalkers dodging marauder and stalker shots if it ends up slowing projectiles
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EPT
