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On October 30 2012 23:28 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 23:10 NonameAI wrote:On October 29 2012 08:11 Markwerf wrote:On October 29 2012 01:48 Seiniyta wrote:On October 29 2012 00:25 Fungal Growth wrote:
From the streams I've seen timewarp is ridiculously ineffective and doesn't hold a candle to the other 'movement constrainers' (ff and fungal).
Think about it... It does no damage, doesn't affect health, doesn't affect dps, doesn't grant detection...so largely speaking it is somewhat irrelevant. It would only matter in that it can prevent enemy units from reaching a battle as fast or escaping a battle as fast. But movement speed is important over a large distance. For example, who would care if a marine moved 50% slower if ti was just for one space? The counter to time-warp is easy...you just walk out of it...50% movement speed for a 3.5 radius is NOTHING.
All this talk of time-warp being amazing reminds me of the talk that blinding cloud was going to be OP...but in reality it turned out to be a joke because of how easy it was to micro out the cloud and how small it was. If I really don't want my units escaping, I play as zerg, use fungal and get a 100% reduction in movement speed + damage + detection. Or as protoss I use forcefield which can not only block units 100%, but push units around and block access to buildings. It's a rather easy fix though for the Time Warp, just make it slow down abilities and dps by 50% as well. right...... That would just make the oracle another deathball unit with a marginal harass upside. Time warp as it stands is a terrible ability on the oracle which is just a complete failure by blizzard so far. Anything that would actually give it an aoe ability good for combat would just reinforce the current boring protoss gameplay. Unfortunately I don't think blizzard will make anymore drastic changes to the game and only work with the current models and visuals they have programmed already for the WoL or HotS alpha. Time warp needs a buff to be actually cool, it's probably just going to be an area or slow effect increase. Given they can't increase the slow effect too much (it would make it too strong as mineral harassment) i'll think they increase the area next patch. FIX IT? Making it reduce attack speed is insanely OP. Not even fungal does that. Fungal also doesnt reduce damage. Toss already has tons of DPS in a deathball. If time warp became more OP, it would cause 4 collossi to decimate entire armies that clump up in the time warp. As i always say, the oracle is just another deathball unit. It sucks at harrass (like time warping workers is useless and requireds no skill) and is great in armies.The way blizz has done it is encouraging the boring and stupid protoss deathball play, and since zerg ground fails against AoE, time warp will make that worse, encouraging infestor/BL deathballing instead of mid-game play that dies to any sort of Toss AoE. tl;dr:
toss already has too good options for army. Oracle is not good enough at harrass and too good in engagements. Way too good... Please for the love of god stop bolding random out of context words. It makes your post unreadable
I bold for emphasis. Maybe i should italicize instead?
And its not random. If i say "i love time warp" and i then say "i love time warp," do you see it as the same subtext? Or what if i said "I Love Time Warp"?
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I do like timewarp but I think the building attacking spell is boring. I'd like to see that spell upgraded or replaced, or something.
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This is going to be a really tough skill to balance. The oracle is fast and it's flying. With this ability it can shut down drops, harassing the main base, taking out expos, and trapping an army moving out on the map. As far as I can tell, Bio doesn't stand a chance once this ability is learned how to be used effectively.
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Canada13389 Posts
On October 31 2012 00:02 happyness wrote:
This is going to be a really tough skill to balance. The oracle is fast and it's flying. With this ability it can shut down drops, harassing the main base, taking out expos, and trapping an army moving out on the map. As far as I can tell, Bio doesn't stand a chance once this ability is learned how to be used effectively.
It doesnt trap an army mid map and it doesnt do much against drops since the medivacs are flying. Also, being able to timewarp a drop will be a skill in and of itself so I see this as nothing but good.
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On October 31 2012 00:21 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 00:02 happyness wrote:
This is going to be a really tough skill to balance. The oracle is fast and it's flying. With this ability it can shut down drops, harassing the main base, taking out expos, and trapping an army moving out on the map. As far as I can tell, Bio doesn't stand a chance once this ability is learned how to be used effectively. It doesnt trap an army mid map and it doesnt do much against drops since the medivacs are flying. Also, being able to timewarp a drop will be a skill in and of itself so I see this as nothing but good.
It can trap any army that is attempting to move through a choke.
And terrain denial is not even the worst aspect of the spell.
It's usage in battles will be.
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On October 31 2012 00:27 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 00:21 ZeromuS wrote:On October 31 2012 00:02 happyness wrote:
This is going to be a really tough skill to balance. The oracle is fast and it's flying. With this ability it can shut down drops, harassing the main base, taking out expos, and trapping an army moving out on the map. As far as I can tell, Bio doesn't stand a chance once this ability is learned how to be used effectively. It doesnt trap an army mid map and it doesnt do much against drops since the medivacs are flying. Also, being able to timewarp a drop will be a skill in and of itself so I see this as nothing but good. It can trap any army that is attempting to move through a choke. And terrain denial is not even the worst aspect of the spell. It's usage in battles will be.
Yeah. It encourages deathballing, because time warp ensures that trades go in your favor, even if they retreat.
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Entomb is bad because it has one use only. Force field is bad because it is absolute (can't move units, can't destroy the FF).
Time warp is good because its uses are more varied than entomb and less absolute than FF. Time warp should replace FF on the sentry and the Oracle should be removed from the game. QED. 
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On October 31 2012 00:59 deo1 wrote:Entomb is bad because it has one use only. Force field is bad because it is absolute (can't move units, can't destroy the FF). Time warp is good because its uses are more varied than entomb and less absolute than FF. Time warp should replace FF on the sentry and the Oracle should be removed from the game. QED.
4 gates it is! All match ups, 90% of the time (mix it up with 2 gate proxy)
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Timewarp is really not that powerful, some of you guys have some misconception there.
The investment in stargate and oracle is pretty huge.
It will in many cases make you straight up lose a game vs terran if he is out for an early attack build because the time warp effect in a battle is minimal (unless the enemy loses and tries to run away but then he lost anyway).
And I just want to say it again: Pulsar beam is great. It finally gives toss a good harrass option with a fast unit, that stays usefull later in the game to deny expansions.
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On October 31 2012 00:31 NonameAI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 00:27 pmp10 wrote:On October 31 2012 00:21 ZeromuS wrote:On October 31 2012 00:02 happyness wrote:
This is going to be a really tough skill to balance. The oracle is fast and it's flying. With this ability it can shut down drops, harassing the main base, taking out expos, and trapping an army moving out on the map. As far as I can tell, Bio doesn't stand a chance once this ability is learned how to be used effectively. It doesnt trap an army mid map and it doesnt do much against drops since the medivacs are flying. Also, being able to timewarp a drop will be a skill in and of itself so I see this as nothing but good. It can trap any army that is attempting to move through a choke. And terrain denial is not even the worst aspect of the spell. It's usage in battles will be. Yeah. It encourages deathballing, because time warp ensures that trades go in your favor, even if they retreat.
Both of you are forgetting that FF can be used for exactly the same purpose. You can FF a choke. You can FF a retreating army. The Oracle is a pretty poor addition to the deathball, too. It has no attack, and although it's special ability is nice - it does nothing that FFs can't do, and FFs come from gateways and are cheaper to get ( 1 sentry = 50/100 for 4 FFs in a big fight, 1 Oracle = 150/150 for 2 Time Warps in a fight).
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On October 26 2012 00:14 Aveng3r wrote:
I agree with the guy above me, however I do like how it helps to kill a deathball and mindless 1a gameplay because if you get all your units caught in it, your gonna be in trouble..
They can work on fine tuning the balance later, I like how they made a spell that is good in concept rather than just mindlessly changing numbers around to fiddle with the balance
edit: the guy 2 posts above me
Well no, its not really gonna help with deathball. If AOE spells would fix DB, then why are there still big clumps of marine marauder running around even when toss has storm and collossi?
What this ability will do is make you spread your units abit, yes, but not fix deathball. If anything, it just adds to the protoss deathball, and strays further and further from the harassment unit it was supposed to be.
If this ability replaced force field, I would be ok with it, because forcefield is even worse. But keep forcefield AND have this ability? nope, the same problems will pop up.
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On October 31 2012 01:18 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 00:31 NonameAI wrote:On October 31 2012 00:27 pmp10 wrote:On October 31 2012 00:21 ZeromuS wrote:On October 31 2012 00:02 happyness wrote:
This is going to be a really tough skill to balance. The oracle is fast and it's flying. With this ability it can shut down drops, harassing the main base, taking out expos, and trapping an army moving out on the map. As far as I can tell, Bio doesn't stand a chance once this ability is learned how to be used effectively. It doesnt trap an army mid map and it doesnt do much against drops since the medivacs are flying. Also, being able to timewarp a drop will be a skill in and of itself so I see this as nothing but good. It can trap any army that is attempting to move through a choke. And terrain denial is not even the worst aspect of the spell. It's usage in battles will be. Yeah. It encourages deathballing, because time warp ensures that trades go in your favor, even if they retreat. Both of you are forgetting that FF can be used for exactly the same purpose. You can FF a choke. You can FF a retreating army. The Oracle is a pretty poor addition to the deathball, too. It has no attack, and although it's special ability is nice - it does nothing that FFs can't do, and FFs come from gateways and are cheaper to get ( 1 sentry = 50/100 for 4 FFs in a big fight, 1 Oracle = 150/150 for 2 Time Warps in a fight).
Time warp is cast by a flying unit that is faster than a sentry.
Moreover the spell has twice the FF duration greater area and no weakness to massive units.
Even if it would work on it's own the combination of area spells will prove too much for terran bio-style to handle.
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how about giving time warp to sentries... and forcefields to oracles??? Of course toss early game options like perhaps stalkers and cannons might have to be buffed, but this spell distribution would perhaps be more balanced
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My thoughts about time warp.
its a fixed bubble on the ground, and having it be called time warp would suggest all time in the bubble would be slowed, which it is not.
If the name time warp is kept and the fixed bubble graphic remains i would expect all time in the bubble to be slowed.
- movement speed.
- repair time
- build time
- mining time
- perhaps even projectile speeds.
- all units inside this bubble should be affected, your own units and enemy units.
If you want to make sure that your own units are not affected, dont make the animation be a fixed bubble on the ground but rather something more like fungal which sticks to the units its casted on.
If the whole bubble idea is something they insist on running with and they dont want the effects to affect friendly units then i would argue for a different name to the ability. I guess they could say, well the protoss that casted the timewarp communicated the precise shield modulation needed to counteract the effect of said timewarp to all friendly units so thats why they are not affected.. but i think its a far fetch.
other then that, i think it's cool.
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I love the idea, but like Artimo ^ said, this spell would be more interesting if really every aspect of that bubble is slowed. This way, through bad usage you can shaft yourself by slowing yourself, but through good usage the enemy is slowed. This allows for different strats/tactics and means higher skill= better outcome. This can still be used to harrass mineral lines etc.
Also at late game perhaps 50 percent could be too much of a tip in one direction for the 200/200 battle. But the numerical aspect isn't too important, because that will be adjusted. Love the idea.
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If you make it reduce damage then it will just become something you HAVE to use (because it's so good in any situation), and then the whole game needs to be balanced around that. It's exactly what happened with FF.
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On October 31 2012 01:44 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 01:18 Treehead wrote:On October 31 2012 00:31 NonameAI wrote:On October 31 2012 00:27 pmp10 wrote:On October 31 2012 00:21 ZeromuS wrote:On October 31 2012 00:02 happyness wrote:
This is going to be a really tough skill to balance. The oracle is fast and it's flying. With this ability it can shut down drops, harassing the main base, taking out expos, and trapping an army moving out on the map. As far as I can tell, Bio doesn't stand a chance once this ability is learned how to be used effectively. It doesnt trap an army mid map and it doesnt do much against drops since the medivacs are flying. Also, being able to timewarp a drop will be a skill in and of itself so I see this as nothing but good. It can trap any army that is attempting to move through a choke. And terrain denial is not even the worst aspect of the spell. It's usage in battles will be. Yeah. It encourages deathballing, because time warp ensures that trades go in your favor, even if they retreat. Both of you are forgetting that FF can be used for exactly the same purpose. You can FF a choke. You can FF a retreating army. The Oracle is a pretty poor addition to the deathball, too. It has no attack, and although it's special ability is nice - it does nothing that FFs can't do, and FFs come from gateways and are cheaper to get ( 1 sentry = 50/100 for 4 FFs in a big fight, 1 Oracle = 150/150 for 2 Time Warps in a fight). Time warp is cast by a flying unit that is faster than a sentry. Moreover the spell has twice the FF duration greater area and no weakness to massive units. Even if it would work on it's own the combination of area spells will prove too much for terran bio-style to handle.
True, the Oracle is flying and faster than the sentry. True, the area is greater. True, it's more useful against Thors (and in PvP where balance isn't an issue).
For this price, one Oracle costs twice as many resources as one sentry(1.5 times as much gas) has half the number of uses of its control spell at max energy, costs an extra food, doesn't have anything with the combat utility of Guardian Shield, has a lesser scouting ability (revelation) and has no attack.
It's much worse in the early game (where FF on the ramp is king), and only slightly better (mostly due to its speed) when attacking, and in the lategame (where massive units are even possible).
And on top of all that, it's built from the stargate, which (maybe you haven't heard) isn't exactly the most powerful tree protoss has.
I like the Oracle, but for this one thing it suddenly has for it, it has a lot of things still weighing it down.
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EPT
