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On October 26 2012 00:18 hpTheGreat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 00:15 Slago wrote:
I think we're gonna have to try it before passing this kind of judgement, that's the problem with this community always over thinking and jumping waaaaaaaaay ahead of the present, looking towards the future is good, but an essay on how a spell will change a race with no real info on the spell or testing is absurd Really? What if i told you that marines can now fly? Wouldnt you be able to figure out that it woudl be OP?
No it wouldn't be OP.
First off it would be a spell the allows Marines to fly, right? After all, he clearly stated that he is talking about SPELLS.
So you have to factor in how much it costs to get said spell that lets Marines fly.
Then you need to know how much energy it costs to activate the spell.
Finally, how long does the spell last and how many Marines you can use it on, at any given time.
All of these are factors and can significantly impact the timing of when this strat is viable, and thus whether the opposition can reasonably defend against it.
And for Christ's sake a Medivac technically allows marines to fly and I don't think people scream, "MEDIVAC OP, MEDIVAC OP!"
Seriously people, please think before opening your mouth.
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United States7483 Posts
Time Warp should debuff enemy units and buff friendly units in the area of effect.
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So they want to remove terran bio play completely from hots i see. Toss got their own "fungal baneling" (time warp +storm) combo now and also collossi in the back and terran has.,......?
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On October 26 2012 04:40 Sweetness.751 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 00:18 hpTheGreat wrote:On October 26 2012 00:15 Slago wrote:
I think we're gonna have to try it before passing this kind of judgement, that's the problem with this community always over thinking and jumping waaaaaaaaay ahead of the present, looking towards the future is good, but an essay on how a spell will change a race with no real info on the spell or testing is absurd Really? What if i told you that marines can now fly? Wouldnt you be able to figure out that it woudl be OP? No it wouldn't be OP. First off it would be a spell the allows Marines to fly, right? After all, he clearly stated that he is talking about SPELLS. So you have to factor in how much it costs to get said spell that lets Marines fly. Then you need to know how much energy it costs to activate the spell. Finally, how long does the spell last and how many Marines you can use it on, at any given time. All of these are factors and can significantly impact the timing of when this strat is viable, and thus whether the opposition can reasonably defend against it. And for Christ's sake a Medivac technically allows marines to fly and I don't think people scream, "MEDIVAC OP, MEDIVAC OP!" Seriously people, please think before opening your mouth.
Whether a spell would be OP or not is beside the point. People aren't liking Time Warp because it's OP, UP, or neutral - they like it because the actual intended functionality of the spell is something they could see being useful (while still being counterable).
Let's say I wanted to make a spell that destroyed all buildings in a certain area. I could balance that. I could put it on a unit that's ridiculously expensive, make it super lategame, and make the unit move so slowly that most of the time it shouldn't work (and I could also do the opposite - I could make it insanely OP, therefore there is probably some middle ground where it's remotely balanced).
That doesn't make it a good ability. People would still hate it because it's either a ridiculously expensive unit that is very hard to use that ends up doing nothing, or a unit which does something, and therefore costs someone their expansion. It's binary and play off of hidden information, and people hate that.
The reason people like the ability is because it could (with the right characteristics) accomplish the purpose of Forcefield (in that it provides zealots and stalkers the opportunity to shine with a zealots damage and a stalkers range without their downfall which is the zealot's slowness and the stalker's micro-intensiveness) - without the part people hate about forcefield (which is that you can't micro against it). That's why people like the *concept*. It allows for control on the part of both players. Or, it could be awful with the wrong characteristics and they could instantly scrap it without ever getting it to the place people want it to get.
That doesn't change the point of this post, which was that the concept (and not the specifics) has the potential to add good gameplay. If you can't understand why without seeing an example (and are unable to simply "theorycraft") I would suggest that the beta forum may not be the forum for you to watch. Everything in here is theorycrafting and testing with very small sample sizes. That may make it less rigorous in terms of making an argument, but most of the people posting here aren't here for the rigor - they're here for the very theorycrafting some in this thread are decrying.
Why is it that when someone makes a post saying "The warhound is bull*^(&" everyone is behind it, and we all come together as a community to tell Blizzard no, but when someone makes a post saying "hey, this ability could be really good guys" there are so many who say "how do you know? it might be awful!" and "you should think before you open your mouth".
You know, don't you, that this is why we can't have nice things?
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So many game devs in this thread, lol.
Let it play out before you bash it, especially if you are in copper league.
On October 26 2012 05:22 WeRRa wrote:
So they want to remove terran bio play completely from hots i see. Toss got their own "fungal baneling" (time warp +storm) combo now and also collossi in the back and terran has.,......?
Siege Tanks
Widow Mines
Hunter Seeker
You want more AoE?
And no, running around with tier 1 units the entire game is not supposed to be viable; unfortunately WoL just happened to be balanced around it. Terran can counter every combination that you described with STRATEGY (read - not 1 t a click).
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This spell isn't even in the game yet. We don't know how big it's radius is, how long it lasts... nothing. Wait until we know more about it to praise it.
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I must be psychic or something. I suggested something like the time warp in a post right before this was announced.
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Thats weird I have a dream about this kind of ability long time ago and what it will do to help toss ...
wow now I feel like nostradamus !! xD
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On October 26 2012 05:40 scph wrote:
I must be psychic or something. I suggested something like the time warp in a post right before this was announced.
On October 26 2012 05:55 therockmanxx wrote:
Thats weird I have a dream about this kind of ability long time ago and what it will do to help toss ...
wow now I feel like nostradamus !! xD
You guys are on to something. Nice warpmind.
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While I do like this spell and where it's going, I also see a complication. Balancing its harassment affect versus its combat utility. Let's look at what aspects they could change.
-Radius. More powerful in combat.
-Energy cost. More powerful in combat.
-Slow %. Equalish.
-Duration. More powerful in harassment. I wonder if it targets area or units though.
All in all, it seems like it will be difficult to keep balanced while still being a powerful harassment tool at the same time. (although making it slow mining rate will help)
Also, my theorycraft is failing me. How can this new Oracle help Air Protoss play?
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On October 26 2012 06:05 LockeTazeline wrote:
While I do like this spell and where it's going, I also see a complication. Balancing its harassment affect versus its combat utility. Let's look at what aspects they could change.
-Radius. More powerful in combat.
-Energy cost. More powerful in combat.
-Slow %. Equalish.
-Duration. More powerful in harassment. I wonder if it targets area or units though.
All in all, it seems like it will be difficult to keep balanced while still being a powerful harassment tool at the same time. (although making it slow mining rate will help)
Also, my theorycraft is failing me. How can this new Oracle help Air Protoss play?
Actually, Slow % is less effective in combat to a point.
Let me explain what I mean: let's say you have zealots v marines and the marines have to run all the way across the zone (something that takes them about 8 seconds we'll say - about half a walloff with FFs, since they lock the unit in combat for 15 seconds). That makes the marine's speed 1.125. A zealot spends about half his time attacking, so the rest of the time he spends moving anyway (i.e. while his attack is cooling down he can catch up to the unit earlier, but if he can't attack yet, doesn't actually deal more damage). In this way, additional slow against marines (no stim) is redundant - while additional slow against speedlings may still yield additional damage.
On the other hand, additional % slow will always reduce resource output of a mining base.
Also, duration matters insofar as if the duration is lower than the time it takes a unit to run across it, a subtraction in duration may be equivalent (in some situations) to a subtraction in area.
In general, I think you've hit the nail on the head - though it is worth noting that how much it affects the combat situation depends largely on what you're combatting.
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Dammit. I saw time and I thought they meant the ingame clock.
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holy wow this looks so amazingly awesome
TIME WARP THE MINERAL LINES
ALL THE MINERAL LINES
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So basically it's an 'anti-stim' spell to be able to micro better? Seems nice to me. I'm curious to how it will play out. It'd be pretty cool to have a double immortal drop to kill greater spire, and slow the army with this spell, so it can't retreat in time. I can imagine it will be quite strong.
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All in all, it seems like it will be difficult to keep balanced while still being a powerful harassment tool at the same time. (although making it slow mining rate will help)
I don't think this is really true. Balance the spell's stats it for army support so its useful but not imba, then if its too weak at harassment, just have the timeslow also effect harvesting rate to a certain extent so the harass is potent but not gamebreakingly strong. Thats a very easy, straightforward fix that makes perfect intuitive sense from both a gameplay perspective and a "lore"/flavor perspective.
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Time Warp will give the Protoss whole new /dance options though--"let's do the Time Warp again!"
(It's just a jump to the left....)
OK, I'm not taking my post too seriously. I apologize.
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Interesting.
Gonna go try this out now. didnt realise a new patch was out...
the OP makes this sound pretty decent, time to find out whether or not his theory crafting is on the money or not!
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One other thing about this spell--it will introduce some inherent separation into armies.
Think about it. A force is hit by a warp field. They charge forward to get out--as the front row leaves the warp they speed up and pull ahead of the other units which are still slowed, introducing separation between them. When the next ones leave they speed up and pull ahead of the ones behind them, but the gap between them and the ones in front of them remains because they're the same speed.Instead of a simple clump, units become more scattered (akin to the way Chargelots spread out from each other when closing with the enemy, and for roughly the same reason, albeit at a much slower pace), reducing their effective dps until they stop to regoup.
This also introduces an interesting dynamic with aoe. Units inside the time warp are more vulnerable to it, but in leaving there may well be situations where they are less vulnerable to it do to spreading effect. It'll be interesting to see people test that.
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Nice post and the usual boatload of preposterous theory crafting from mediocre players whose results will never ever bear on any issue related to balance in a million years.
A mild tangent:
You cannot determine how good something is in a vacuum. People haven't even seen a single player use this spell yet the death of Terran has already been predicted. Given where we are in the beta and that the top tier pros aren't even playing HOTS regularly it's extremely difficult to determine how good or bad some spell or ability is at this point. It's actually kind of unfortunate that the top pros are too busy with WOL to play HOTS since they won't have an ability to impact game development. What changes should be made should be heavily based on top tier pros (as in top 10 in the world or better in their respective races). These are the players whose input, but mostly play, counts the most.
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Time warp ain't a harassment spell guys. You're not gonna spend precious energy on slowing workers for a few seconds.
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EPT
