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Oracle Changes - Page 11

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killy666
Profile Joined July 2012
France204 Posts
October 25 2012 12:31 GMT
#201
I completely dislike the slow spell. It reduce micro capabilities, and it empowers the Deathball aspect endgame protoss army.
I suppose you could say the same thing with fungal and tier 3 zerg.
My life is sicker than your band
gedatsu
Profile Joined December 2011
1286 Posts
October 25 2012 12:49 GMT
#202
On October 25 2012 21:31 killy666 wrote:
I completely dislike the slow spell. It reduce micro capabilities, and it empowers the Deathball aspect endgame protoss army.
I suppose you could say the same thing with fungal and tier 3 zerg.

It incentivizes the enemy to not keep his units in a deathball. If he does, all of it will get slowed and he'll be in big trouble. This is a good thing.

This "it reduces micro" complaint has never been a good one. Using those spells is micro.
BurningRanger
Profile Joined January 2012
Germany303 Posts
October 25 2012 12:55 GMT
#203
My 2 cents on the Timewarp ability:
Blizzard didn't think a few inches out of the box at all. It may be a funny spell, when you look at the Oracle's harassment possibilities ONLY.
Do you know how it will actually be used? Imagine a standard WoL PvT with the usual Protoss Deathball vs. the Terran Bio+Medivac+Viking (in HotS with some BattleHellions maybe, but that doesn't care). A Protoss player will now not only split the Terran army in half with Forcefields, he will also cast the Orcale's slow spell aka Timewarp at least onto parts of the Terran Bio, (1) making stutterstepping useless and (2) prevent any units from retreating.
On the other side (what I'm argueing over and over again) a Protoss player that overcommits and decides to retreat, has usually his expensive hightech units (mainly the Colossi) surviving, while losing the expendable Warpgate units to slow down the chasing opponent (to compare: Terran's and Zerg's expensive hightech and AoE damage units are slow, so will never survive a retreat). Now you give Protoss another spell (FFs can do the job too) to retreat safely, even with quite much the whole army in case something goes wrong. Just a few Timewarps behind the army and noone is ever going to catch you.

Another thing that bugs me hard. Even before beta I said on a few occasions that Terrans would need a slow field of some kind (like that turret in the campaign for example) for the 200/200 battles that are won by the Protoss warping in 20 Zealots. Usually this results in the Zealots running into the Terrans production line, which has just started to get to work again, and leveling it, while single units pop out here and there. With a slow field, Terrans would have a slightly better chance to gather some units again before the Zealots come charging into the base.
Now, there is the slow field... and it is... wtf? For Protoss?!? Are you kidding?

Honestly, Protoss does not need another Crowd Control ability! Terran needs this one a lot more.

(And for the ones that say Terran's have a slow in Concussive Shells already: Yes, they have, but this is a single target slow, while Timewarp is AoE slow. You'd need 20 Marauders on the field to slow down 20 freshly warped in Zealots.)
My Livestream: http://www.twitch.tv/burningranger | My youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/BurningR4nger
YumYumGranola
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada346 Posts
October 25 2012 12:58 GMT
#204
They should give the Oracle an attack that does very little damage, but massive damage to workers carrying minerals/gas. Like a destabilization beam or something. Make it short range, so if you camp it behind a mineral line you'll only hit workers that are actively drilling i.e. wont do damage. That way it has to be micro'd closer to the base, and can be massively effective in pro hands but lame if the user has little macro ability.
rpgalon
Profile Joined April 2011
Brazil1069 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 13:06:29
October 25 2012 13:03 GMT
#205
On October 25 2012 21:55 BurningRanger wrote:
My 2 cents on the Timewarp ability:
Blizzard didn't think a few inches out of the box at all. It may be a funny spell, when you look at the Oracle's harassment possibilities ONLY.
Do you know how it will actually be used? Imagine a standard WoL PvT with the usual Protoss Deathball vs. the Terran Bio+Medivac+Viking (in HotS with some BattleHellions maybe, but that doesn't care). A Protoss player will now not only split the Terran army in half with Forcefields, he will also cast the Orcale's slow spell aka Timewarp at least onto parts of the Terran Bio, (1) making stutterstepping useless and (2) prevent any units from retreating.
On the other side (what I'm argueing over and over again) a Protoss player that overcommits and decides to retreat, has usually his expensive hightech units (mainly the Colossi) surviving, while losing the expendable Warpgate units to slow down the chasing opponent (to compare: Terran's and Zerg's expensive hightech and AoE damage units are slow, so will never survive a retreat). Now you give Protoss another spell (FFs can do the job too) to retreat safely, even with quite much the whole army in case something goes wrong. Just a few Timewarps behind the army and noone is ever going to catch you.

Another thing that bugs me hard. Even before beta I said on a few occasions that Terrans would need a slow field of some kind (like that turret in the campaign for example) for the 200/200 battles that are won by the Protoss warping in 20 Zealots. Usually this results in the Zealots running into the Terrans production line, which has just started to get to work again, and leveling it, while single units pop out here and there. With a slow field, Terrans would have a slightly better chance to gather some units again before the Zealots come charging into the base.
Now, there is the slow field... and it is... wtf? For Protoss?!? Are you kidding?

Honestly, Protoss does not need another Crowd Control ability! Terran needs this one a lot more.

(And for the ones that say Terran's have a slow in Concussive Shells already: Yes, they have, but this is a single target slow, while Timewarp is AoE slow. You'd need 20 Marauders on the field to slow down 20 freshly warped in Zealots.)

Just give oracle to Terran and raven to Protoss... hehe
badog
SuperYo1000
Profile Joined July 2008
United States880 Posts
October 25 2012 15:45 GMT
#206
so pulsar beam takes energy to attack?

so supply depot will take 40 energy?

its starts off with 50 energy so most you can do is around 500 damage.

if you want to go for a harassment of a hatchery you have to wait till you have 150 energy to be even a threat?

am I reading this right? seems like a really poor ability
Fyrewolf
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1533 Posts
October 25 2012 15:49 GMT
#207
These changes sound quite interesting. Time warp seems like it would be good against stim (kind of like ensnare but without the rof debuff). Pulsar beam sounds like it's alright with the numbers(though it still needs testing), any stronger and it might be op (it's in between uncharged and charged void ray in damage, can be used repeatedly since it's not a huge cost, can micro while using it, and more importantly will likely have multiple oracles in late game). The one thing I'm wondering though, since pulsar is stated to be a passive ability, does that mean it will hit every structure in range? That would be quite good.
"This is not Warcraft in space" "It's much more...... Sophisticated" "I KNOW IT'S NOT 3D!!!"
KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 17:16:46
October 25 2012 17:14 GMT
#208
On October 26 2012 00:45 SuperYo1000 wrote:
so pulsar beam takes energy to attack?

so supply depot will take 40 energy?

its starts off with 50 energy so most you can do is around 500 damage.

if you want to go for a harassment of a hatchery you have to wait till you have 150 energy to be even a threat?

am I reading this right? seems like a really poor ability


The idea, I assume, is to encourage building more than 1 or 2 Oracles now, as together they can cause quite a bit of damage if left unchecked.

Pulsar Beam from a few Oracles, keeping one in reserve to Time Warp seems like it would be a pretty effective tech sniping method.

On October 26 2012 00:49 Fyrewolf wrote:
These changes sound quite interesting. Time warp seems like it would be good against stim (kind of like ensnare but without the rof debuff). Pulsar beam sounds like it's alright with the numbers(though it still needs testing), any stronger and it might be op (it's in between uncharged and charged void ray in damage, can be used repeatedly since it's not a huge cost, can micro while using it, and more importantly will likely have multiple oracles in late game). The one thing I'm wondering though, since pulsar is stated to be a passive ability, does that mean it will hit every structure in range? That would be quite good.


Wow, I didn't even think about that, but I can't imagine that's how it's actually going to work as that would be super OP. Run in with like 4 oracles, turn on Pulsar, wipe out a whole cluster of supply depots super quick and run out. The fact that's called "Beam" makes me think it is going to be single target, though.
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
Fyrewolf
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1533 Posts
October 25 2012 17:33 GMT
#209
On October 26 2012 02:14 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 26 2012 00:45 SuperYo1000 wrote:
so pulsar beam takes energy to attack?

so supply depot will take 40 energy?

its starts off with 50 energy so most you can do is around 500 damage.

if you want to go for a harassment of a hatchery you have to wait till you have 150 energy to be even a threat?

am I reading this right? seems like a really poor ability


The idea, I assume, is to encourage building more than 1 or 2 Oracles now, as together they can cause quite a bit of damage if left unchecked.

Pulsar Beam from a few Oracles, keeping one in reserve to Time Warp seems like it would be a pretty effective tech sniping method.

On October 26 2012 00:49 Fyrewolf wrote:
These changes sound quite interesting. Time warp seems like it would be good against stim (kind of like ensnare but without the rof debuff). Pulsar beam sounds like it's alright with the numbers(though it still needs testing), any stronger and it might be op (it's in between uncharged and charged void ray in damage, can be used repeatedly since it's not a huge cost, can micro while using it, and more importantly will likely have multiple oracles in late game). The one thing I'm wondering though, since pulsar is stated to be a passive ability, does that mean it will hit every structure in range? That would be quite good.


Wow, I didn't even think about that, but I can't imagine that's how it's actually going to work as that would be super OP. Run in with like 4 oracles, turn on Pulsar, wipe out a whole cluster of supply depots super quick and run out. The fact that's called "Beam" makes me think it is going to be single target, though.



It may be called beam, but the description implies that it's still multi-target, not just the passive, but especially the auto-cast part.

"Passive anti structure ability that deals 20 damage per second. Drains 2 energy per second while channeling. Auto-cast on"

It sounds like a toggled channel ability. So if you are aiming for a specific building, you would have to turn auto-cast off and then target a specific building, or it hits everything and you just turn auto-cast off when you don't want to drain more energy. We'll just have to see when the patch actually hits how good the new oracle is, but I'm definitely intrigued.
"This is not Warcraft in space" "It's much more...... Sophisticated" "I KNOW IT'S NOT 3D!!!"
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 17:37:56
October 25 2012 17:36 GMT
#210
On October 25 2012 21:49 gedatsu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 21:31 killy666 wrote:
I completely dislike the slow spell. It reduce micro capabilities, and it empowers the Deathball aspect endgame protoss army.
I suppose you could say the same thing with fungal and tier 3 zerg.

It incentivizes the enemy to not keep his units in a deathball. If he does, all of it will get slowed and he'll be in big trouble. This is a good thing.

This "it reduces micro" complaint has never been a good one. Using those spells is micro.


And where is the Terran AoE which forces the Protoss (besides casters) to have to spread? Maybe widow mine splash damage should be increased so Protoss have to learn to spread as well. Or maybe make seekers missile have more range or travel faster.
rpgalon
Profile Joined April 2011
Brazil1069 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 17:43:57
October 25 2012 17:39 GMT
#211
I believe increasing protoss speed in a really small radius is better than decreasing the enemy speed...

On October 26 2012 02:36 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 21:49 gedatsu wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:31 killy666 wrote:
I completely dislike the slow spell. It reduce micro capabilities, and it empowers the Deathball aspect endgame protoss army.
I suppose you could say the same thing with fungal and tier 3 zerg.

It incentivizes the enemy to not keep his units in a deathball. If he does, all of it will get slowed and he'll be in big trouble. This is a good thing.

This "it reduces micro" complaint has never been a good one. Using those spells is micro.


And where is the Terran AoE which forces the Protoss (besides casters) to have to spread? Maybe widow mine splash damage should be increased so Protoss have to learn to spread as well. Or maybe make seekers missile have more range or travel faster.

Protoss don't really need to split that much because their units are huge so it's like they are naturally spread out.
of course spreading casters helps a lot, but protoss have also other problems to think about like putting their very different range units in the correct position.
badog
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
October 25 2012 17:39 GMT
#212
On October 26 2012 02:36 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 21:49 gedatsu wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:31 killy666 wrote:
I completely dislike the slow spell. It reduce micro capabilities, and it empowers the Deathball aspect endgame protoss army.
I suppose you could say the same thing with fungal and tier 3 zerg.

It incentivizes the enemy to not keep his units in a deathball. If he does, all of it will get slowed and he'll be in big trouble. This is a good thing.

This "it reduces micro" complaint has never been a good one. Using those spells is micro.


And where is the Terran AoE which forces the Protoss (besides casters) to have to spread? Maybe widow mine splash damage should be increased so Protoss have to learn to spread as well. Or maybe make seekers missile have more range or travel faster.

EMP? Just because Protoss players don't spread their units, doesn't mean that they shouldn't.
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
October 25 2012 17:41 GMT
#213
On October 26 2012 02:36 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2012 21:49 gedatsu wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:31 killy666 wrote:
I completely dislike the slow spell. It reduce micro capabilities, and it empowers the Deathball aspect endgame protoss army.
I suppose you could say the same thing with fungal and tier 3 zerg.

It incentivizes the enemy to not keep his units in a deathball. If he does, all of it will get slowed and he'll be in big trouble. This is a good thing.

This "it reduces micro" complaint has never been a good one. Using those spells is micro.


And where is the Terran AoE which forces the Protoss (besides casters) to have to spread? Maybe widow mine splash damage should be increased so Protoss have to learn to spread as well. Or maybe make seekers missile have more range or travel faster.


EMP, siege tanks, HSM
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
October 25 2012 17:44 GMT
#214
On October 26 2012 02:39 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2012 02:36 vthree wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:49 gedatsu wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:31 killy666 wrote:
I completely dislike the slow spell. It reduce micro capabilities, and it empowers the Deathball aspect endgame protoss army.
I suppose you could say the same thing with fungal and tier 3 zerg.

It incentivizes the enemy to not keep his units in a deathball. If he does, all of it will get slowed and he'll be in big trouble. This is a good thing.

This "it reduces micro" complaint has never been a good one. Using those spells is micro.


And where is the Terran AoE which forces the Protoss (besides casters) to have to spread? Maybe widow mine splash damage should be increased so Protoss have to learn to spread as well. Or maybe make seekers missile have more range or travel faster.

EMP? Just because Protoss players don't spread their units, doesn't mean that they shouldn't.


EMP is great but they only remove shields. If you have TvP engagement with EMPs hitting Protoss army and storms hitting Terran army, guess which one wins?
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
October 25 2012 17:45 GMT
#215
On October 26 2012 02:41 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2012 02:36 vthree wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:49 gedatsu wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:31 killy666 wrote:
I completely dislike the slow spell. It reduce micro capabilities, and it empowers the Deathball aspect endgame protoss army.
I suppose you could say the same thing with fungal and tier 3 zerg.

It incentivizes the enemy to not keep his units in a deathball. If he does, all of it will get slowed and he'll be in big trouble. This is a good thing.

This "it reduces micro" complaint has never been a good one. Using those spells is micro.


And where is the Terran AoE which forces the Protoss (besides casters) to have to spread? Maybe widow mine splash damage should be increased so Protoss have to learn to spread as well. Or maybe make seekers missile have more range or travel faster.


EMP, siege tanks, HSM


Fine, if they make time wrap have HSM range and also a slow projectile...
rpgalon
Profile Joined April 2011
Brazil1069 Posts
October 25 2012 17:47 GMT
#216
On October 26 2012 02:44 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2012 02:39 Ramiz1989 wrote:
On October 26 2012 02:36 vthree wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:49 gedatsu wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:31 killy666 wrote:
I completely dislike the slow spell. It reduce micro capabilities, and it empowers the Deathball aspect endgame protoss army.
I suppose you could say the same thing with fungal and tier 3 zerg.

It incentivizes the enemy to not keep his units in a deathball. If he does, all of it will get slowed and he'll be in big trouble. This is a good thing.

This "it reduces micro" complaint has never been a good one. Using those spells is micro.


And where is the Terran AoE which forces the Protoss (besides casters) to have to spread? Maybe widow mine splash damage should be increased so Protoss have to learn to spread as well. Or maybe make seekers missile have more range or travel faster.

EMP? Just because Protoss players don't spread their units, doesn't mean that they shouldn't.


EMP is great but they only remove shields. If you have TvP engagement with EMPs hitting Protoss army and storms hitting Terran army, guess which one wins?

it depends on how much units each skill hit dohh =D
badog
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
October 25 2012 17:51 GMT
#217
On October 26 2012 02:44 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2012 02:39 Ramiz1989 wrote:
On October 26 2012 02:36 vthree wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:49 gedatsu wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:31 killy666 wrote:
I completely dislike the slow spell. It reduce micro capabilities, and it empowers the Deathball aspect endgame protoss army.
I suppose you could say the same thing with fungal and tier 3 zerg.

It incentivizes the enemy to not keep his units in a deathball. If he does, all of it will get slowed and he'll be in big trouble. This is a good thing.

This "it reduces micro" complaint has never been a good one. Using those spells is micro.


And where is the Terran AoE which forces the Protoss (besides casters) to have to spread? Maybe widow mine splash damage should be increased so Protoss have to learn to spread as well. Or maybe make seekers missile have more range or travel faster.

EMP? Just because Protoss players don't spread their units, doesn't mean that they shouldn't.


EMP is great but they only remove shields. If you have TvP engagement with EMPs hitting Protoss army and storms hitting Terran army, guess which one wins?

And EMP is instant, while you can split in the middle of the Storm, and take just a bit of damage. But I don't even know why are you comparing these things? It is obvious that Terran requires more micro than other two races.
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 17:56:01
October 25 2012 17:55 GMT
#218
I wonder if an Oracle Time Warped an enemy mineral line, how much slower the workers would mine.

Or if it would, for example, slow down SCVs repair speed on bunkers/PF
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
October 25 2012 17:57 GMT
#219
On October 26 2012 02:44 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2012 02:39 Ramiz1989 wrote:
On October 26 2012 02:36 vthree wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:49 gedatsu wrote:
On October 25 2012 21:31 killy666 wrote:
I completely dislike the slow spell. It reduce micro capabilities, and it empowers the Deathball aspect endgame protoss army.
I suppose you could say the same thing with fungal and tier 3 zerg.

It incentivizes the enemy to not keep his units in a deathball. If he does, all of it will get slowed and he'll be in big trouble. This is a good thing.

This "it reduces micro" complaint has never been a good one. Using those spells is micro.


And where is the Terran AoE which forces the Protoss (besides casters) to have to spread? Maybe widow mine splash damage should be increased so Protoss have to learn to spread as well. Or maybe make seekers missile have more range or travel faster.

EMP? Just because Protoss players don't spread their units, doesn't mean that they shouldn't.


EMP is great but they only remove shields. If you have TvP engagement with EMPs hitting Protoss army and storms hitting Terran army, guess which one wins?


"only removes shields"??? that's a huge deal vs a protoss army lol. You can run out of Storms because stim makes your bio units faster than speedy gonzalez
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 25 2012 18:19 GMT
#220
Huge fan of the change. The new Pulsar Cannon is great and will add a lot to the gameplay. I am really excited to see how it factors into endgame. For the same supply cost as 5 stalkers, the protoss can have a fast moving building wrecking crew that are also spell casters. It makes for good multi tasking. Off the top of my head I can think of a few things these units could do endgame.

PvZ - destroy the spine crawler wall used to screen the brood lords. Slow brood lords or focus down the greaters spire when the army isn't at home. Remove assimilators from geysers on the 4-5 fifth base, cutting into the zergs gas. Assist with warp prism/zealots attacks by ripping down spine crawlers.

PvT - Remove add-ons like reactors and techlabs. Slow widow mine fields while they are removed by stalkers. Slow SCVs while they are repairing(hopefully it works like that). Slow bio-balls when they stim so the protoss army can do free damage without engaging.

I am really encouraged. I hope that time warp has a number of side effects, such as slowed repair. It will make it a more versatile spell. A raiding unit that does destroys builds at a high speed and also flies really sounds like it could have almost endless use in the end game.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
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