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On November 05 2012 16:46 M.R. McThundercrotch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 15:44 FabledIntegral wrote:
Yes, it limits micro. The main difference is that with a slow, regardless of the amount of the slow, your ability to escape a chain fungal increases at a ridiculous amount, and at the same time zealots become ridic more effective. Even at 80% slow, you can still attempt to split your fungaled marines in those four seconds and cause the second fungal to only kill say 75% of the amount instead of 100%. Say your vikings are super clumped for some retarded reason, because it needs four fungals to die, you'll be able to save a ton (as well as ravens). 3 clumped medivacs being caught can split in 3 ways, causing 3 times more fungals to be used, etc. Phoenix will actually be able to escape most likely. I think the biggest benefit would be particularly to sentry/stalker/immortal armies, where after the first fungal you could realize what's happening, FF all the infestors off, and prevent the third chain fungal from ever hitting via retreat. That's absolutely HUGE.
Right, but you could micro even more if it did not slow at all. Slows and stuns and other types of "crowd control" abilities have one purpose: to bring the skill level of your opponent down to a manageable level. Marines and Blink Stalkers and etc. are too effective when they are controlled by a skilled player; so, Fungal Growth is used to eliminate that skill advantage. A slow would serve the same purpose. Force Field is often used in the same way and that is completely backwards. Abilities should force you to play better, not prevent you from doing so. That is some casual, MMO "leveling the playing field" type nonsense that has no place in a game that is supposed to be played competitively. It honestly boggles my mind that these abilities are still in the game. It just doesn't make sense.
I fully agree with you here, but sadly the crutches of Fungal and Forcefield are "necessary" due to the scariness of a tight ball of Marines. Well it would be, if Zerg didnt have Banelings and Protoss didnt have Combat Shield and Colossi to neutralize that Terran threat.
For an early base defense a Protoss can always wall himself in and Fungal is only available in the mid game anyways, so that doesnt really count as an excuse either. "Uncounterable" spells have no place in an RTS and counterspells dont work there either, so any extreme spell like Fungal seems terribly wrong.
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On November 05 2012 16:54 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 16:40 Hoender wrote:
On the fungal growth subject: How about a "Restore" ability (similar to the medic's ability in BW), but make it an area of effect ability. I wouldn't mind having a couple of Oracles or Sentries late game with that ability with the sole purpose of negating Fungal Growths.
This way (atleast for PvZ) the current Fungal Growth ability can stay as it currently is and will also promote lategame Oracle or Sentry usage. Such a radical ability as Fungal Growth are actually very terrible for a game, because there is no way to counter them. Giving only one race an ability to "get out" is equally terrible. Either the spell gets removed OR it gets changed to pure damage only ... maybe like the Plague of the Defiler, but then why doesnt the game have Defilers in the first place? For the cost of just 75 energy it is simply too powerful and even Infested Terran is an awful spell, because it stacks. This is the real "make or break" of spells. Do they stack or dont they? Plague doesnt stack, but doesnt kill any units on its own either; Fungal Growth doesnt stack in intensity, but it stacks in duration and it kills anything affected, so it is a very terrible spell. You cant really counter it with EMP either, since it got nerfed so hard and because Zerg will build a lot more Infestors than can be EMPed (or Feedbacked). Leenock had an insane amount of 34 Infestors in a game against Bomber yesterday and you cant win with a crapton of Ghosts, but you can win with a crapton of Infestors.
I completely agree with you, but I do think that Blizzard will dislike drastically changing anything that has up to this point been used in WoL as a staple ability / unit  . In such a case, abilities or methods of countering this ability should probably be given some thought.
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If you want to fix Forcefield then simply add a hitpoint value (200+) and a highish (3-4) armour value to the forcefield so that target-firing the forcefield causes it to collapse in the same way massive units can crush it.
Fungal growth needs to form a series of nerfs that need to weaken the infestor, namely:
- Infested Terran reduced to 25 HP and 5 damage.
- Fungal Growth no longer roots, instead snares by 30%.
Vortex? Just call it stasis and do exactly what Blizzard are doing in HoTS.
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As a zerg player i always defended the infestor and its abilities, but even i have to admit it covers way too many roles. In the lower leagues (diamond) its just impossible for my opponents to split correctly, especially with a few burrowed lings and OLs all around for good map vision. and creep ofc.
The root effect has to go i think, but then zerg needs: better AA (spores), a way to counter blink and better corrupters. I honestly cannont imagine how blizz gonna balance this mess.
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maybe change fungal to a region where units can't cast spells and DOT in the field. Infested field or something. I don't know why Zerg keep linking fungals to forcefield. Toss absolutely need it. Zerg dont have to use it all the time. They can still win games without it. I don't know how some Zerg players can use this point to justify the existence of Infestors.
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Forcefields with HP that become removable in the mid-game and worthless in the end-game sound interesting to me, because then Sentries would be an early game timing unit for defense or offense and Blizzard could rebalance the Warpgate mechanic and Gateway units by not allowing Pylons to power up a cliff, giving Warpgates a cooldown based on the individual unit's build time as opposed to a universal cooldown and increasing Stalker and Zealot shields by 20 and 10 respectively.
The Mothership needs to be removed, the Cloaking field needs to be added to the Oracle (researched at Fleet Beacon), Carrier build time needs to be reduced, Templar Archives and Dark Shrine need to be consolidated and then Protoss would be in good shape from a design perspective.
As far as the Infestor is concerned, changing the root into a 50% snare and changing Neural Parasite into a 9 range spell that can't target massive units (the originally proposed nerf) would hopefully better balance the unit.
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On November 05 2012 18:25 Zaurus wrote:
maybe change fungal to a region where units can't cast spells and DOT in the field. Infested field or something. I don't know why Zerg keep linking fungals to forcefield. Toss absolutely need it. Zerg dont have to use it all the time. They can still win games without it. I don't know how some Zerg players can use this point to justify the existence of Infestors.
Protoss dont "absolutely need it", because they could simply use other strategies like walling themselves in more tightly and waiting more for Colossi. In late game hardly any Protoss has Sentries anymore which kinda "proves" that Protoss DONT need that spell to win. They might need it to "win early" or "survive without cannons", but there are alternatives in the game.
Both spells are linked together, because both "change the battlefield" by limiting the micro of their opponent. Terrible idea as a design concept.
On November 05 2012 18:56 MoonCricket wrote:
The Mothership needs to be removed, the Cloaking field needs to be added to the Oracle (researched at Fleet Beacon), Carrier build time needs to be reduced, Templar Archives and Dark Shrine need to be consolidated and then Protoss would be in good shape from a design perspective.
Having multiple sources for a cloaking field is a terrible idea and there are far fewer detectors in SC2 compared to BW. Overlords dont detect anymore and the energy of an Orbital is needed for MULE; only Protoss have remained the same in that regard ...
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On November 05 2012 19:34 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 18:25 Zaurus wrote:
maybe change fungal to a region where units can't cast spells and DOT in the field. Infested field or something. I don't know why Zerg keep linking fungals to forcefield. Toss absolutely need it. Zerg dont have to use it all the time. They can still win games without it. I don't know how some Zerg players can use this point to justify the existence of Infestors. Protoss dont "absolutely need it", because they could simply use other strategies like walling themselves in more tightly and waiting more for Colossi. In late game hardly any Protoss has Sentries anymore which kinda "proves" that Protoss DONT need that spell to win. They might need it to "win early" or "survive without cannons", but there are alternatives in the game. Both spells are linked together, because both "change the battlefield" by limiting the micro of their opponent. Terrible idea as a design concept. Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 18:56 MoonCricket wrote:
The Mothership needs to be removed, the Cloaking field needs to be added to the Oracle (researched at Fleet Beacon), Carrier build time needs to be reduced, Templar Archives and Dark Shrine need to be consolidated and then Protoss would be in good shape from a design perspective. Having multiple sources for a cloaking field is a terrible idea and there are far fewer detectors in SC2 compared to BW. Overlords dont detect anymore and the energy of an Orbital is needed for MULE; only Protoss have remained the same in that regard ...
Protoss need sentries to hold off speed roaches, early terran pressure and some other early aggression. Sentries are needed for defensive purpose. Offensively they can be countered and not unstoppable. Their uses diminish towards the mid-game. Without FUNGALS zerg can do the following in mid game:
1) Roach and Speedlings
2) Hydras, Roach and Corruptors
3) Mutalisk and Lings
4) Ling and Banelings
5) Pure Roach
I feel infestors can afford to have another support spell to help out.
But fungals are too much....
Putting the sentries debate aside if you dont agree with me, but fungals need to go or be modified.
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remove mothership (give cloak to oracle on fleetbeacon and remove timewarp), rename MsC and let it be attached to nexus again, make fungal a slow, remove FF (give sentry timewarp: will be fine combined with core for early game defense), remove concussive, give ravens irridiate instead of HSM.
buff carrier, hydras, ultras, tanks etc. accordingly
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On November 05 2012 20:13 Zaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 19:34 Rabiator wrote:On November 05 2012 18:25 Zaurus wrote:
maybe change fungal to a region where units can't cast spells and DOT in the field. Infested field or something. I don't know why Zerg keep linking fungals to forcefield. Toss absolutely need it. Zerg dont have to use it all the time. They can still win games without it. I don't know how some Zerg players can use this point to justify the existence of Infestors. Protoss dont "absolutely need it", because they could simply use other strategies like walling themselves in more tightly and waiting more for Colossi. In late game hardly any Protoss has Sentries anymore which kinda "proves" that Protoss DONT need that spell to win. They might need it to "win early" or "survive without cannons", but there are alternatives in the game. Both spells are linked together, because both "change the battlefield" by limiting the micro of their opponent. Terrible idea as a design concept. On November 05 2012 18:56 MoonCricket wrote:
The Mothership needs to be removed, the Cloaking field needs to be added to the Oracle (researched at Fleet Beacon), Carrier build time needs to be reduced, Templar Archives and Dark Shrine need to be consolidated and then Protoss would be in good shape from a design perspective. Having multiple sources for a cloaking field is a terrible idea and there are far fewer detectors in SC2 compared to BW. Overlords dont detect anymore and the energy of an Orbital is needed for MULE; only Protoss have remained the same in that regard ... Protoss need sentries to hold off speed roaches, early terran pressure and some other early aggression. Sentries are needed for defensive purpose. Offensively they can be countered and not unstoppable. Their uses diminish towards the mid-game. Without FUNGALS zerg can do the following in mid game: 1) Roach and Speedlings 2) Hydras, Roach and Corruptors 3) Mutalisk and Lings 4) Ling and Banelings 5) Pure Roach I feel infestors can afford to have another support spell to help out. But fungals are too much.... Putting the sentries debate aside if you dont agree with me, but fungals need to go or be modified.
Why are they needed? The only reason I can see is that Protoss are too miserly to build a sufficient number of cannons early on[*]. Sure they arent "offensive" because they cant move, but they have a bigger range than Roaches and Marines and dont require supply or Gateway time to be built. They absolutely do NOT cost any gas like the Sentries, so the only "valid" reason seems to be that you want to be able to WIN with Forcefield by going out of your base.
Oh and when it comes to building static defenses you should always keep in mind that "when you try to make a point, do it in a way so that no one misses it!" Build more than a cannon or two, build 4-5 and some units to block off your wide natural ramp. If those Roaches come and kill a few cannons they dont kill Probes and you win because of the economy and saved gas.
[*] Day[9] has been criticized by me for a long time for his "that is a Spine Crawler which he didnt want to build" mantra, because the thought process behind it is based upon BW numbers. ONE static defense absolutely doesnt cut it in SC2 due to the mass production capability of all the three races and the tight formations and unlimited unit selection, which make mass attacks very much possible early on already. So one stupid Spine or Cannon wont help you survive much.
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On November 05 2012 21:15 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 20:13 Zaurus wrote:On November 05 2012 19:34 Rabiator wrote:On November 05 2012 18:25 Zaurus wrote:
maybe change fungal to a region where units can't cast spells and DOT in the field. Infested field or something. I don't know why Zerg keep linking fungals to forcefield. Toss absolutely need it. Zerg dont have to use it all the time. They can still win games without it. I don't know how some Zerg players can use this point to justify the existence of Infestors. Protoss dont "absolutely need it", because they could simply use other strategies like walling themselves in more tightly and waiting more for Colossi. In late game hardly any Protoss has Sentries anymore which kinda "proves" that Protoss DONT need that spell to win. They might need it to "win early" or "survive without cannons", but there are alternatives in the game. Both spells are linked together, because both "change the battlefield" by limiting the micro of their opponent. Terrible idea as a design concept. On November 05 2012 18:56 MoonCricket wrote:
The Mothership needs to be removed, the Cloaking field needs to be added to the Oracle (researched at Fleet Beacon), Carrier build time needs to be reduced, Templar Archives and Dark Shrine need to be consolidated and then Protoss would be in good shape from a design perspective. Having multiple sources for a cloaking field is a terrible idea and there are far fewer detectors in SC2 compared to BW. Overlords dont detect anymore and the energy of an Orbital is needed for MULE; only Protoss have remained the same in that regard ... Protoss need sentries to hold off speed roaches, early terran pressure and some other early aggression. Sentries are needed for defensive purpose. Offensively they can be countered and not unstoppable. Their uses diminish towards the mid-game. Without FUNGALS zerg can do the following in mid game: 1) Roach and Speedlings 2) Hydras, Roach and Corruptors 3) Mutalisk and Lings 4) Ling and Banelings 5) Pure Roach I feel infestors can afford to have another support spell to help out. But fungals are too much.... Putting the sentries debate aside if you dont agree with me, but fungals need to go or be modified. Why are they needed? The only reason I can see is that Protoss are too miserly to build a sufficient number of cannons early on[*]. Sure they arent "offensive" because they cant move, but they have a bigger range than Roaches and Marines and dont require supply or Gateway time to be built. They absolutely do NOT cost any gas like the Sentries, so the only "valid" reason seems to be that you want to be able to WIN with Forcefield by going out of your base. Oh and when it comes to building static defenses you should always keep in mind that "when you try to make a point, do it in a way so that no one misses it!" Build more than a cannon or two, build 4-5 and some units to block off your wide natural ramp. If those Roaches come and kill a few cannons they dont kill Probes and you win because of the economy and saved gas. [*] Day[9] has been criticized by me for a long time for his "that is a Spine Crawler which he didnt want to build" mantra, because the thought process behind it is based upon BW numbers. ONE static defense absolutely doesnt cut it in SC2 due to the mass production capability of all the three races and the tight formations and unlimited unit selection, which make mass attacks very much possible early on already. So one stupid Spine or Cannon wont help you survive much.
Is hard for Toss to just build cannons blindly hoping an attack will come. Base defense can definitely hold off roaches and unstimmed bio with gateway support. But they are quickly phased out of the game. Cannons is definitely not a viable option. Zergs don't just plant down spine crawlers, it is the same reason. Forcefield is in a nice place now. I really don't find it as devastating.
The focus for me should be on fungals. But nothing gonna change blizzard mind. Just a few of us venting our frustrations here.
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Very good thread. I'm sure most people will agree with the problems, and even if you don't agree with the solutions, they would still make the game better than what it is now.
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I hope Blizzard will at least try to change those spells somehow and see how it works before beta is closed becouse if they don't , it means they see no problem in the way they work right now and that's disturbing.
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fixing pvz : make warp prisms be able to drop units while fungalled. allows suicide warp prisms to kill mass amounts of infestors but requires micro on both parts (corruptors in position, dropping the hts from the right angle etc)
fixing tvz : make medivacs be able to drop units while fungalled (same as above)
fixing tvp : tbh early and mid game seems to be fine, just lots of terrans are saving up too much energy for mules and not scanning for allins. For lategame bio at least they need to do something so that terran doesnt just lose the game when a single engagement goes slightly sour and all of a sudden theres 30 zealots at the natural.
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On November 05 2012 19:34 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 18:25 Zaurus wrote:
maybe change fungal to a region where units can't cast spells and DOT in the field. Infested field or something. I don't know why Zerg keep linking fungals to forcefield. Toss absolutely need it. Zerg dont have to use it all the time. They can still win games without it. I don't know how some Zerg players can use this point to justify the existence of Infestors. Protoss dont "absolutely need it", because they could simply use other strategies like walling themselves in more tightly and waiting more for Colossi. In late game hardly any Protoss has Sentries anymore which kinda "proves" that Protoss DONT need that spell to win. They might need it to "win early" or "survive without cannons", but there are alternatives in the game. Both spells are linked together, because both "change the battlefield" by limiting the micro of their opponent. Terrible idea as a design concept. Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 18:56 MoonCricket wrote:
The Mothership needs to be removed, the Cloaking field needs to be added to the Oracle (researched at Fleet Beacon), Carrier build time needs to be reduced, Templar Archives and Dark Shrine need to be consolidated and then Protoss would be in good shape from a design perspective. Having multiple sources for a cloaking field is a terrible idea and there are far fewer detectors in SC2 compared to BW. Overlords dont detect anymore and the energy of an Orbital is needed for MULE; only Protoss have remained the same in that regard ...
It's debatable, Terrans can't be exptected to MULE uncontested vs Cloaked threats and should have 3 to 4 Orbital Commands by the time a Fleet Beacon is built and Cloak is researched, and Zerg can still upgrade Overlords to Overseers at will or either race can kill the Oracle with Vikings or Corrupters respectively.
Terrans can certainly deal with it, if Zerg can't then a minor change to Spore Crawlers, making them able to detect while uprooted, would probably solve any potential imbalances.
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While fungal has to be changed no doubt, do you think 40% slow is enough to deal with MMA drop style vs zerg? Infestors will be nigh impossible to use vs terran drop play.
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Fixing forcefield = removing forcefield? wtf
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Fungal deals damage, roots and prevents using abilities. This is simply too much for a single spell, one of these effects has to be removed.
I think that if fungal did no damage or its damage output would be nerfed by at least by 50%, then the game would become more interesting. Casters should not act as core, but support units. You won't win a game with an army composed mostly of HT's, Sentries or Ghosts so why should Infestors be an exception?
If fungal did none or greatly reduced damage then we would never see 20+ Infestors in a game at the same time and the spell would be used mainly for crowd control at right times (so you can easily connect your banelings, kill off a part of a retreating army with your actual core attacking units or prevent the enemy from getting into a better position) as opposed to mindless "hit everything that is clumped every time you can" kind of spell.
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SC2 will die out slowly (faster once Dota2 gets released) until blizzard does what they should have done in 2010. Give BW a facelift and fix some of the bugs + pathing instead of miserably failing at an unnecessary sequel. I mean just look at all the problems this game has, everyone is trying to come up with solutions, changes, buffs, nerfs and in the meanwhile nobody's having fun. The metagame is completely turned around with every patch and there's always at least 1 unit/ability that ruins at least 1 matchup. i want sc2 to stabilize and be a fun game, but i don't see that happening any time soon. at least not while the balance section is being run by clowns.
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On November 06 2012 00:48 Kabras wrote:
SC2 will die out slowly (faster once Dota2 gets released) until blizzard does what they should have done in 2010. Give BW a facelift and fix some of the bugs + pathing instead of miserably failing at an unnecessary sequel. I mean just look at all the problems this game has, everyone is trying to come up with solutions, changes, buffs, nerfs and in the meanwhile nobody's having fun. The metagame is completely turned around with every patch and there's always at least 1 unit/ability that ruins at least 1 matchup. i want sc2 to stabilize and be a fun game, but i don't see that happening any time soon. at least not while the balance section is being run by clowns.
Viewership is in fact increasing (I've watched every major tournament, and watched viewer numbers, for a year now) in general. Lots of people are having fun with the game (myself, most pros, lots of casuals, many of my friends). Just because you are jaded does not mean everyone else is. The game can definitely use some love as far as changes go but this level of pessimism is pretty nuts. Just quit playing if it bothers you that much man.
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EPT
