EPTFixing Forcefield, Fungal Growth and Vortex - Page 9
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 04 2012 05:34 kcdc wrote: I won't comment on the lategame micro difficulty levels becasue I don't play the Terran side, but this argument was a little silly. Chronoboost doesn't give Protoss improved mining efficiency in late-game at all. Once you hit your optimal worker count (~72), you don't use chronoboost on workers. An OC is worth about 4 workers in mineral income. If Terran gets 6 orbitals (not at all uncommon in lategame), he can sacrifice 24 workers and have the same average income as Protoss. Yes, the income is in spikes, but that's actually an advantage. It's better to have 1500 minerals over 90 seconds followed by 0 minerals over 30 seconds than to have 1500 minerals spread evenly over 120 seconds because MULE income is front-loaded which gives you the option to spend those minerals sooner. Maybe you want to bank some of the extra minerals to spend them evenly minerals over the 120 seconds, or maybe you want to spend it all up front, but it's always better to have the choice. The main point, however, is that if both players need a 72 worker income and T has 6 OC's, P needs to spend 72 supply on workers and Terran needs to spend only 48 supply on workers. Both sides total supply is 200, but Terran has 152 army supply while Protoss only has 128 army supply. That's a big deal, and it off-sets the reinforcement advantage that Protoss gets. I didn't get your original point on supply, got it now concerning chrono. However, no, he can't sacrifices that many workers. You're assuming a Terran player isn't scanning whatsoever lategame, and I'd heavily argue that scans are used MORE often than mules in most cases, unless Terran has a ridiculous foothold and mapawareness. In retrospect, you're right about the spikes, although I wouldn't see it as too much of an advantage, as your production should be catered to assuming you'd produce evenly over those 120 seconds. Assuming Terran isn't harassed (which affects mules significantly more than SCVs), then I guess it could come out as even. Although 6 orbitals is more so late lategame, where people are generally cashfloating (as at least one of Terrans bases around the time of 5 base is a PF, you've seen even players like Taeja lose specifically to chargelot counters). Although I'd say a flaw in your logic is that army supplies mean that the fight is even on both sides. From experience, I'd sooner argue that a 152 Terran army supply is around equal in battle to a 128 Protoss army supply, and the two should wipe each other out. And that's assuming you got to the point where you could sacrifice SCVs. Very battle dependent, but if two armies are coming out even, and Protoss can have insta-warpins, that's where the discrepancy is. | ||
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anon734912
South Africa19 Posts
On November 04 2012 06:13 Gfire wrote: Does anyone think it would work to make FFs unable to be placed on top of enemy units, and your own units have to move out of the way first? The same mechanic as placing a building, basically. I really like this idea. It would be impossible to use it to split your opponent's army, but a good player will be able to cast FFs in the gaps. It can still be used defensively and to sculpt the battlefield to your desired shape. Ideally, I'd like to see it take up 2x2 build square and require 1 empty square at the target point to be allowed to be cast. | ||
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Sambobly
Australia241 Posts
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
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Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
On November 04 2012 08:06 anon734912 wrote: I really like this idea. It would be impossible to use it to split your opponent's army, but a good player will be able to cast FFs in the gaps. It can still be used defensively and to sculpt the battlefield to your desired shape. Ideally, I'd like to see it take up 2x2 build square and require 1 empty square at the target point to be allowed to be cast. yeah that might have worked when we all first started to play and they could have balanced around that, but at this point FF's are so key to almost every point in the game that it would make protoss obsolete, or like i said take ages to balance just for 1 tiny change. | ||
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DiLiGu
United States185 Posts
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PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
I like Fungal being a slow instead of a root, but I don't feel very good about the damage output being as high as it is. I don't like the ability locking out blink, either, cause mid / late game stalker pokes could be cool to watch. I guess if 8 seconds of attack / movement speed slow, and 38 damage isn't enough, you could try reverting the neural parasite change. You need to think of something else for the force field replacement. I'm thinking it would be wiser to just increase forcefield cost, and then compensate for the change by making it unbreakable by massive units. Maybe buff guardian shield and sentry health? I dunno, really. The whole thing is just a terrible, terrible mess. | ||
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Oogray
Australia6 Posts
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Axxis
United States133 Posts
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Highways
Australia6105 Posts
Forcefields and Fungals are two massive reason for the boring gameplay of SC2 | ||
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targ
Malaysia445 Posts
On November 04 2012 10:26 Ooshmagoosh wrote: Would anybody here want to test out these sort of changes to FF / Fungal / Roaches on an edited map? I could cook something up in a few minutes if you could agree on a set of changes. I like Fungal being a slow instead of a root, but I don't feel very good about the damage output being as high as it is. I don't like the ability locking out blink, either, cause mid / late game stalker pokes could be cool to watch. I guess if 8 seconds of attack / movement speed slow, and 38 damage isn't enough, you could try reverting the neural parasite change. You need to think of something else for the force field replacement. I'm thinking it would be wiser to just increase forcefield cost, and then compensate for the change by making it unbreakable by massive units. Maybe buff guardian shield and sentry health? I dunno, really. The whole thing is just a terrible, terrible mess. I'd like to see these changes too. If Fortify doesn't end up being fun, maybe Forcefield could reduce enemy armor within its area - this would encourage micro on both sides. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On November 04 2012 10:26 Ooshmagoosh wrote: Would anybody here want to test out these sort of changes to FF / Fungal / Roaches on an edited map? I could cook something up in a few minutes if you could agree on a set of changes. I like Fungal being a slow instead of a root, but I don't feel very good about the damage output being as high as it is. I don't like the ability locking out blink, either, cause mid / late game stalker pokes could be cool to watch. I guess if 8 seconds of attack / movement speed slow, and 38 damage isn't enough, you could try reverting the neural parasite change. You need to think of something else for the force field replacement. I'm thinking it would be wiser to just increase forcefield cost, and then compensate for the change by making it unbreakable by massive units. Maybe buff guardian shield and sentry health? I dunno, really. The whole thing is just a terrible, terrible mess. Fungal not preventing blink would make +2 blink allins too strong I feel combined with an increased roach cost. Forcefield being unbreakable by massive units would only really impact PvP for the worse. Increasing sentry health would not be necessary if fungal only slowed since getting fungaled wouldn't lock them in place anymore. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
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MagnuMizer
Denmark384 Posts
I would really like to test them out, i wish there would be someone with map/mod making skills that could make this happen. It would change the game in so many ways, but I guess that's what we are all looking for - the same awesome game that is starcraft 2, though with some minor tweaks to perfect the game balance and also make more interesting and creative ways to play other than just the standard builds and unit compositions we see all the time. Good post. | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
I really like protoss since BW but playing protoss in WoL is really no fun, you HAVE TO place perfect force fields and you HAVE TO tech for collossus. so boring. Some points I would like to add: - In HotS you can no longer warp in to the high ground - if FF is removed gateway units ABSOLUTELY NEED a buff, a skill to help with defending buildings is not enough, the units themselves need to be able to fight bio and roaches without forcefields -An alternative nerf to fungal might be to either do damage OR immobilize and block the use of abilities -again if fungal is nerfed something else would need a buff and this could be the hydra for example, which is still underused So I agree with what your saying but I am not so sure about all of your suggestions. But in principle: -remove FF -nerf fungal -balance the other units again around the new situation (-and remove vortex or even better the whole boring mothership) | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
This feels like a buff to fungal. While this allows your units to somewhat try to escape it at the same time lowers their dps with 30%? When you got fungled your units where at least fighting, now instead of fighting you have to make some attempt to escape with 40% movement speed,(wich wont work against zerg..) fighing with 30% dps reduced does not seem an option. Am specifically thinking about zvz roach infestor engagements here, where people usually dont want to retreat annyway, and the fungal is just extra dps basicly, not sure how this is in other matchups but at first impression this seems like a buff to fungal  . | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
Infact its a straight buff to fungal imagine blink stalkers blink under a bunch of broods... spam fungal all the stalkers, no way in hell they will try to run, and now they have a 30% lower dps? Jeeze ur making broodlord infestor even stronger... | ||
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