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On October 25 2012 16:11 GARcher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 15:49 targ wrote:
Initially I was abit confused by your suggestions. Protoss play is too turtley and you suggest that the sentry get a base defense spell?
However after some thought I think I get your point - nerf marines and roaches slightly so that zealot/stalker can fight Z and T tier 1 evenly, without the all-or-nothing nature of forcefield engagements so that more small skirmishes early will happen. Then sentry is used mainly for guardian shield and base defence. It sounds quite sensible.
There are two things I wonder though. The first is, would this fortify spell lead to alot of proxy pylon/cannon all ins? Since once the spell is casted buildings become invulnerable. Secondly, since marines/roaches are weaker now, would Z and T be able to stand up to the P colossus push with gateway units/storm supporting? T would be completely screwed since they already are disadvantaged in the late game. The proposed changes still causes the same metagame where protoss turtles to deathball and it's up to the Terran to attack and do critical damage before 15 minutes. For Z I don't see much changing other than less allins.
I might be in a minority, but I don't think Terran is disadvantaged at all in lategame TvP. It just depends how the game reaches that point. If T plays a really aggressive midgame and P turtles effectively killing Terran attacks and drops without taking much damage, then yeah, Protoss will often be ahead in lategame. That's what happens when you have an efficient defense.
But if you reach lategame on even terms, I think Terran has all the tools they need to win in lategame. Mass ghost is really strong. Mass orbital into freeing up worker supply and remaxing is really strong. Protoss is relying on storms and colossi to win any engagement. If Terran gets good EMP's, they win. It's not necessarily easy to do, but then it's not easy to control the Protoss side either. We see games go both ways.
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Now that Toss has a Time Warp ability that somehow discriminates between ground and air units, I think it's even more ridiculous that Fungal can root both of them. I mean, how do you root something that's in the air, anyway? Absurd.
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Your new FF doesn't allow you to forcefield ramps. How will this work in PvP? I have a hard time believing 4-gate won't be king.
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Also, your replacement for Vortex is surely "different" than vortex, but it is also a lot more efficient at cutting armies in half (since you can run the rest of your army into the Vortex, but you can't do the same with Stasis Field). Won't this cause problems at max supply?
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On October 25 2012 22:55 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 16:11 GARcher wrote:On October 25 2012 15:49 targ wrote:
Initially I was abit confused by your suggestions. Protoss play is too turtley and you suggest that the sentry get a base defense spell?
However after some thought I think I get your point - nerf marines and roaches slightly so that zealot/stalker can fight Z and T tier 1 evenly, without the all-or-nothing nature of forcefield engagements so that more small skirmishes early will happen. Then sentry is used mainly for guardian shield and base defence. It sounds quite sensible.
There are two things I wonder though. The first is, would this fortify spell lead to alot of proxy pylon/cannon all ins? Since once the spell is casted buildings become invulnerable. Secondly, since marines/roaches are weaker now, would Z and T be able to stand up to the P colossus push with gateway units/storm supporting? T would be completely screwed since they already are disadvantaged in the late game. The proposed changes still causes the same metagame where protoss turtles to deathball and it's up to the Terran to attack and do critical damage before 15 minutes. For Z I don't see much changing other than less allins. I might be in a minority, but I don't think Terran is disadvantaged at all in lategame TvP. It just depends how the game reaches that point. If T plays a really aggressive midgame and P turtles effectively killing Terran attacks and drops without taking much damage, then yeah, Protoss will often be ahead in lategame. That's what happens when you have an efficient defense. But if you reach lategame on even terms, I think Terran has all the tools they need to win in lategame. Mass ghost is really strong. Mass orbital into freeing up worker supply and remaxing is really strong. Protoss is relying on storms and colossi to win any engagement. If Terran gets good EMP's, they win. It's not necessarily easy to do, but then it's not easy to control the Protoss side either. We see games go both ways.
Still an uneventful first 15 minutes, for example with only macroing, will almost always result in the protoss having a decent advantage. Once all upgrades and units are available the protoss side has a slight advantage which is pretty much what you see in many games. T can get a bigger army by massing orbitals but it's not the most easy transition (you need a decent bank to go there and your army becomes harder to manage as it depends much more on MULES). A big part as well imo to P's lategame advantage is the gas buildup terran usually faces. There is absolutely no way for terran to deal with a 1-2k gas buildup because any unit in the MMMVG composition costs at least as much minerals as gas. It also jsut can't be denied that if much multitasking is required P's advantage goes up because neither playing microing well is in favor of the protoss (kiting is more important for T then micro is for P)
Anyway I don't think any of the issues in the OP really affect PvT too much, massive sentry use is very rare in the matchup anyway and map design doesn't play a big role for PvT (it's fine on almost any map imo). The thing that troubles the matchup is just the boring nature of it with P having virtually no harass options and being forced to wait till their lategame combination kicks in. Unfortunately HotS fails to revolutionalize the matchup much, i see less and less mech use in it already (as it's still very hard to use) and it seems to resort to the same matchup with P not using air in it and T doing the same with the arly widow mine sprinkled in. Of course that's just my anecdotal evidence and not quite meaningful.
I wish battlecruisers became a viable option in this matchup so T has the option of not playing the micro intensive MMMVG but can transition to air. I believe the BC is already buffed to it's WOL counterpart (ground damage to 10 instead of 8) which might just make it good enough
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On October 25 2012 23:19 Treehead wrote:
Your new FF doesn't allow you to forcefield ramps. How will this work in PvP? I have a hard time believing 4-gate won't be king.
Think HotS!
-> Purify
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On October 25 2012 23:27 Nocci wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 23:19 Treehead wrote:
Your new FF doesn't allow you to forcefield ramps. How will this work in PvP? I have a hard time believing 4-gate won't be king. Think HotS! -> Purify
I'll be honest. I hadn't noticed the duration on Purify. This probably works just fine.
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So then how does Protoss hold early bio pushes from Terran without forcefield? Any fast bio push before six minutes is practically an auto win button without force field. 1 gate expand no longer is viable because of the risk of early game bio rushes from Terran. You can't remove forcefield without buffing gateway units or breaking PvT.
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So your suggestion is to nerf Forcefield and Fungal, then buff Protoss to compensate for the nerf and then nerf Zerg a little more by increasing Roach costs? LOL...
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On October 25 2012 23:22 Treehead wrote:
Also, your replacement for Vortex is surely "different" than vortex, but it is also a lot more efficient at cutting armies in half (since you can run the rest of your army into the Vortex, but you can't do the same with Stasis Field). Won't this cause problems at max supply?
If the mothership in HoTS plays like it does in WoL, you don't want to put the rest of your army in the vortex. In PvT and PvP, the vortex/stasis can easily be denied by EMP for feedback, and in PvZ, everything you put in the vortex is as good as dead, so you're better off fighting with whatever is outside the vortex.
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On October 25 2012 23:40 sitromit wrote:
So your suggestion is to nerf Forcefield and Fungal, then buff Protoss to compensate for the nerf and then nerf Zerg a little more by increasing Roach costs? LOL...
Removing forcefield is a pretty gigantic roach buff as forcefield is currently the only reason roaches don't a-move to victory every game. It makes sense to increase roach cost accordingly.
And I don't really Toss getting buffed much here. Void rays are never used. Carriers are very rarely used because it takes almost 3 minutes to get a fully stocked carrier to your front line, and they're pretty bad until you have about 4 of them. You can't afford to play with a 176 supply cap for 3 minutes, so people don't build them. Reducing build time makes sense.
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On October 25 2012 23:39 Wingblade wrote:
So then how does Protoss hold early bio pushes from Terran without forcefield? Any fast bio push before six minutes is practically an auto win button without force field. 1 gate expand no longer is viable because of the risk of early game bio rushes from Terran. You can't remove forcefield without buffing gateway units or breaking PvT.
As my post since ignored, i repost it here.
Maybe the sentry could get a time accelerator skill instead of the forcefield. It would increase attack rate and movement speed of protoss units in a fixed area, like where the fight is happening. This way, protoss can hold early pressure from stimmed terrans or zergs units. It wouldnt be gamebreaking as the forcefield is, and accelerating units is a great way to promote micro plays.
Actually, it would be a stim-like spell. But without damaging the units, and only affecting units staying in the fixed area. If they go out of the time accel area, they loose the speed bonus.
Let me know what you think about it...
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On October 26 2012 01:07 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +Maybe the sentry could get a time accelerator skill instead of the forcefield. It would increase attack rate and movement speed of protoss units in a fixed area, like where the fight is happening. This way, protoss can hold early pressure from stimmed terrans or zergs units. It wouldnt be gamebreaking as the forcefield is, and accelerating units is a great way to promote micro plays.
Actually, it would be a stim-like spell. But without damaging the units, and only affecting units staying in the fixed area. If they go out of the time accel area, they loose the speed bonus. Let me know what you think about it...
I think that if it were usable on tech units like the Colossus, it would be an absurd ability, (stimmed Colossi? really?).
I think that if it were not usable on tech units, it'd feel too contrived (an activated ability that only works on stalkers/sentries/zealots - why not just make them that much better and replace the Colossus?).
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On October 26 2012 00:50 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 23:40 sitromit wrote:
So your suggestion is to nerf Forcefield and Fungal, then buff Protoss to compensate for the nerf and then nerf Zerg a little more by increasing Roach costs? LOL... Removing forcefield is a pretty gigantic roach buff as forcefield is currently the only reason roaches don't a-move to victory every game. It makes sense to increase roach cost accordingly.
I was actually thinking you didn't increase the cost enough (since Z with an equivalent economy and adjusted gas timings would still produce 80% of the roaches they did before, but I don't think I'd be able to hold 80% of the current roach timings). Then again, if you nerf it more (or even 100/25), I think there might become unstoppable protoss timings (who knows - maybe there already are - I'd bet blink stalkers would be close).
Balancing SC is much more difficult than people give it credit for.
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On October 26 2012 01:28 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:07 Insoleet wrote:Maybe the sentry could get a time accelerator skill instead of the forcefield. It would increase attack rate and movement speed of protoss units in a fixed area, like where the fight is happening. This way, protoss can hold early pressure from stimmed terrans or zergs units. It wouldnt be gamebreaking as the forcefield is, and accelerating units is a great way to promote micro plays.
Actually, it would be a stim-like spell. But without damaging the units, and only affecting units staying in the fixed area. If they go out of the time accel area, they loose the speed bonus. Let me know what you think about it... I think that if it were usable on tech units like the Colossus, it would be an absurd ability, (stimmed Colossi? really?). I think that if it were not usable on tech units, it'd feel too contrived (an activated ability that only works on stalkers/sentries/zealots - why not just make them that much better and replace the Colossus?).
Obviously it would work only on gateways units.
And the point is that a full stalker ball is already scary lategame. They just need temporary buff during early fights so that they can survive against stimmed units.
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On October 25 2012 23:39 Wingblade wrote:
So then how does Protoss hold early bio pushes from Terran without forcefield? Any fast bio push before six minutes is practically an auto win button without force field. 1 gate expand no longer is viable because of the risk of early game bio rushes from Terran. You can't remove forcefield without buffing gateway units or breaking PvT.
I've answered this before, but they can already be held in WoL without forcefields. Add fortify, purify, and free hallucination to know exactly what they're doing, and you'll be fine as long as you're not too greedy. Cannons are another option.
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So far I've always agreed with your posts but this time it seems that we don't quite share the same opinion about this.
A lot of tweaks to other protoss units would be necessary if you would change the sentry like this. Your suggested sentry would be limited to base defence. How can you push out and threaten your opponent (especially terran bio)? I would hate having to build a 100gas unit with low hp/low speed/low dps just in case I need some base defence but can't be used on the offense. The mothership core is there to help out protoss for this, but this should not be a core unit. Apart from this using sentries correctly is way way more interesting to watch in pro level games as well as using it for yourself compared to many other abilities in the game. I enjoy watching really good ff usage way more than watching stutter step micro, conc shell slow etc.
FF often times does prevent micro on the other side AFTER all ff have been casted, but only if the units of the other player are completely trapped AND he has nothing to crush or circumvent the ff (for instance medivac pickups we see in high level play). Being able to micro all the time would be really nice to have, but on the positive side ff is plainly one of the best abilities to use and their skill ceiling is way higher than the one of many other abilities in the game.
I totally agree with vortex, basically because both sides kinda gear up for the ultimate army (mainly pvz, also seen in pvp) and then one delayed spell is deciding the outcome really quick.
The new fungal growth would be way way stronger (especially with no ff any more but even without) if it still prevents blinking. Being able to keep the zerg at range and dealing good ranged dps is how protoss kills zerg armies. I like the very general idea behind all this which is changing fg into more of a support spell while allowing micro but what do you want to micro when your units are way way slower than any zerg unit and you have no ability to prevent them from attacking you (slowed zealots + stalkers vs lings/roaches with speed ...). This would be nice for marine splits in tvz vs fg + banes though.
You also added suggestions to other units but you didn't explain why you think these changes would be good. The carrier thing is obvious for most, but I'd be especially interested in your thoughts about the void ray 6->8 range upgrade.
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Blizzard should give a try to this recommendations in the beta!
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On October 25 2012 22:55 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 16:11 GARcher wrote:On October 25 2012 15:49 targ wrote:
Initially I was abit confused by your suggestions. Protoss play is too turtley and you suggest that the sentry get a base defense spell?
However after some thought I think I get your point - nerf marines and roaches slightly so that zealot/stalker can fight Z and T tier 1 evenly, without the all-or-nothing nature of forcefield engagements so that more small skirmishes early will happen. Then sentry is used mainly for guardian shield and base defence. It sounds quite sensible.
There are two things I wonder though. The first is, would this fortify spell lead to alot of proxy pylon/cannon all ins? Since once the spell is casted buildings become invulnerable. Secondly, since marines/roaches are weaker now, would Z and T be able to stand up to the P colossus push with gateway units/storm supporting? T would be completely screwed since they already are disadvantaged in the late game. The proposed changes still causes the same metagame where protoss turtles to deathball and it's up to the Terran to attack and do critical damage before 15 minutes. For Z I don't see much changing other than less allins. I might be in a minority, but I don't think Terran is disadvantaged at all in lategame TvP. It just depends how the game reaches that point. If T plays a really aggressive midgame and P turtles effectively killing Terran attacks and drops without taking much damage, then yeah, Protoss will often be ahead in lategame. That's what happens when you have an efficient defense. But if you reach lategame on even terms, I think Terran has all the tools they need to win in lategame. Mass ghost is really strong. Mass orbital into freeing up worker supply and remaxing is really strong. Protoss is relying on storms and colossi to win any engagement. If Terran gets good EMP's, they win. It's not necessarily easy to do, but then it's not easy to control the Protoss side either. We see games go both ways.
No. If you reach the lategame on equal economy, equal supply, equal upgrades, then you are behind because of warpgate mechanics. Protoss can have higher than 200/200 supply army with enough warpgates and economy to back it up. Plus it's very hard to trade evenly with a protoss once templars are out. Protoss just needs to land decent storms to win the game but Terrans need to land perfect emps in order to not instantly get melted.
Massing ghosts will actually make your army weaker because they don't have as much dps per supply as stimmed MMM. Massing orbitals and sacking SCVs will work in theory but in practice it's impossible because Bio+ghosts is so mineral heavy, you won't have the resources to make an orbital farm.
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On October 26 2012 02:36 GARcher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 22:55 kcdc wrote:On October 25 2012 16:11 GARcher wrote:On October 25 2012 15:49 targ wrote:
Initially I was abit confused by your suggestions. Protoss play is too turtley and you suggest that the sentry get a base defense spell?
However after some thought I think I get your point - nerf marines and roaches slightly so that zealot/stalker can fight Z and T tier 1 evenly, without the all-or-nothing nature of forcefield engagements so that more small skirmishes early will happen. Then sentry is used mainly for guardian shield and base defence. It sounds quite sensible.
There are two things I wonder though. The first is, would this fortify spell lead to alot of proxy pylon/cannon all ins? Since once the spell is casted buildings become invulnerable. Secondly, since marines/roaches are weaker now, would Z and T be able to stand up to the P colossus push with gateway units/storm supporting? T would be completely screwed since they already are disadvantaged in the late game. The proposed changes still causes the same metagame where protoss turtles to deathball and it's up to the Terran to attack and do critical damage before 15 minutes. For Z I don't see much changing other than less allins. I might be in a minority, but I don't think Terran is disadvantaged at all in lategame TvP. It just depends how the game reaches that point. If T plays a really aggressive midgame and P turtles effectively killing Terran attacks and drops without taking much damage, then yeah, Protoss will often be ahead in lategame. That's what happens when you have an efficient defense. But if you reach lategame on even terms, I think Terran has all the tools they need to win in lategame. Mass ghost is really strong. Mass orbital into freeing up worker supply and remaxing is really strong. Protoss is relying on storms and colossi to win any engagement. If Terran gets good EMP's, they win. It's not necessarily easy to do, but then it's not easy to control the Protoss side either. We see games go both ways. No. If you reach the lategame on equal economy, equal supply, equal upgrades, then you are behind because of warpgate mechanics. Protoss can have a 300/200 supply army with enough warpgates and economy to back it up. Plus it's very hard to trade evenly with a protoss once templars are out. Protoss just needs to land decent storms to win the game but Terrans need to land perfect emps in order to not instantly get melted.
50 Warpgates (at 2 supply/warpin, the number of warpins to be 300/200)? 50? Really? That must have been one long and passive game. Why didn't you kill him while he was spending 7500 on buildings?
Also, maybe I'm just not having enough empathy here, but I have a hard time believing lategame templar vs. ghosts is as hopeless as you make it sound when pro GSL code S protoss players seem to be unable to get the win (and, via what you wrote, were obviously unable to get "decent storms"). There must be more to the matchup than what you wrote, eh?
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EPT
