On October 23 2012 01:02 kcdc wrote: Colossi can already be microed against, and colossus micro is incredibly important, particularly in low-food situations. The colossus is pretty far down my list of units that need to be changed for HOTS. It counters marines a little too hard, and marines counter gateway units too hard.
Colossi aren't even particularly good in PvZ where they get owned by roaches before Protoss gets near max supply, and then by the time P maxes out, Z is nearly on broodlords against which colossi are just broodling vacuums. In PvZ, colossi have about a 60 second window where they kill spine crawlers and give Z a good scare before their broodlords finish morphing.
Same thoughts, same experiences.
OP: They're not really that strong and appear to be a lot stronger than they really are; positional play and multi-pronged attacks are super effective against them either directly or indirectly.
Collosi are already easily killed by few units. If they just made collosi less mobile so it would be a defensive unit and buffed some gateway units than that would be i feel the best solution
On October 23 2012 03:11 raf3776 wrote: Collosi are already easily killed by few units. If they just made collosi less mobile so it would be a defensive unit and buffed some gateway units than that would be i feel the best solution
The bomb idea is actually well implemented, even in such a rough state. Obviously if Blizzard were to adopt the idea they would put some professional graphical labor into the unit.
Giving the colossus a time delay before impact, and multiple small radial splash damage projectiles is actually quite a clever solution, and is worth trying. The intent is to make the protoss need to micro their colossus, and to provoke counter micro from the other player. Furthermore, multiple radial splash damage blasts is more affected by weapon and armor upgrades. The time delay before impact means multiple colossi working together will be less efficient unless microed effectively. Overall, a clever idea.
In my opinion the right way to change the attack would be an AOE attack like the tank but relative to the colossus damage right now. So it should deliver its damage in a radius rather than doing line damage maybe even with the ability to attack ground.
Right now an attack moved colossus will almost always do its maximum damage against an opposing army because it does line damage and armies want to engage in a concave so they always gonna be in a line. On the other hand this is what makes collosus really bad at harassing worker lines because the line damage is almost always very ineffective.
With the change I proposed above no longer will an a-moved colossus always do maximum damage because he might not use the full potential of his aoe if not aimed correctly. This forces the collosus to be microed to maximize its damage but it also creates the opportunity to increase the effectiveness of this unit in the hands of a good player by forcefielding smartly or using terrain and positioning in his favor. But also the opponent can use this change to his advantage by engaging with a good split he can minimize the initial damage and by drawing colossus fire with single units he can even use this mechanic to his own advantage. This also would make the Colossus a much better unit to harass worker lines because you could aim the attack at clumps of workers.
I have been working on similar changes so I will post what I have found Hope it helps
Colossus 350 minerals 250 gas 8 supply 1.6 movement 2 armor 300 life 200 shields
Weapon R 7 2.8 cooldown damage 30x2
The thermal lance upgrade now provides +2 range and there is a second one for another +2 both at the cost of 300/300
The thermal lance on mine has a delay(Charge) of .3 a larger aoe that travels about a third of the speed and sits at the edges for about .5 this gives time to react minimize damage and forces the colossus away from the main army. Additionally the colossus target area remains unchanged unless the player micros the colossus(The target before the charge remains the target even if the unit dies or moves but the target can be changed with micro).
The changes so far have made many effective counter plays and made working with your colossus as a out of army unit very comfortable(If risky). With the slow colossus it also forces the protoss to have to face a grueling death march across the map baby sitting the colossus. Also by forcing higher supply and costs a single colossus becomes a big deal(More then before for the protoss) and managing positions between stalkers or tempest to support your colossus more important then ever.
(This was kind of a rushed post hopefully it was clear) Feedback is Appreciated! :D
Edit: Before anyone comments numbers can be changed.
My concept is about making the colossus an objective and a invaluable asset. If you increase over all costs it is an in-direct nerf but my premise is increased range provides less need to get the further range upgrades and lessens the cost of tech-switching out. While also providing an excellent ranged aoe that can be mitigated or enhanced through micro. While remaining effective(but not OP without either).
I think a dodgeable Colossus beam would be great design.
I also think I'd have no real way to repel terran bio if they could micro away the damage of the Colossus.
Your changes have some of the same problems forcefields have. I'm still a-moving my colossus. If he dodges well, I've invested 300/200 per Colossus + 200/200 for range for effectively very little damage. If it can deal no damage, we must assume that (at the highest level of skill) it will do no damage.
Perhaps you could have the initial line (the part that signals what should dodge) initially do 20 damage, and have secondary damage (after 1/3 of a second) that deals the additional 20 damage.
Alternatively, giving me the ability to target where my Colossus shoots, (so I can try to "lead him into the shot") would be even better design. Thoughts?
Name Cost HP Damage DPS Range Movement Colossus 300/200/6 150/200 15x2 (AOE) 18.2 6+3 2.25
-Change damage from 15x2 to 20x2 (+5x2 vs Light) -Reduce attack speed to 3 from 1.65 -The Colossus now shows a targeting line where it will fire, charges its attack for 1/3rd of a second, then fires its twin lances. These lances are slower than their current counterparts and, most importantly, able to be dodged.
So you're reducing colossus DPS from 18.2 to 13.33 (16.67 vs light) AND with a delay AND with more overkill.
Originally I was for something like this because it's a more clear visual but now I'm not so sure: the thermal lances are the main focal point of the unit and it would be a shame to take them away.
One suggestion might be an attack like the hunters in Half life 2, who shoot these dart-like things that explode after a few seconds. That might be an interesting mechanic for the colossus, which would be visually clear and allow counter-micro.
Failing that, the thermal lances need to be slower, as the OP suggests. Remember the colossus reveal from WoL alpha?
No, im not suggesting bringing it back, but look how the beams converge on a single target. If the Colossus started to one side and moved both its beams slowly together from right to left or left to right, it might allow for plenty of time for counter micro.
I agree that increasing damage and slowing attack rate would be a good call, but it should also have enough damage to kill an SCV, meaning at least 23x2 (which means that marines and SCVs with +1 armor would survive the attack, as well as combat shields)
One worry that has always remained about the beams though is that they can obscure the battlefield.
On October 23 2012 03:11 raf3776 wrote: Collosi are already easily killed by few units. If they just made collosi less mobile so it would be a defensive unit and buffed some gateway units than that would be i feel the best solution
It already is a less mobile unit
Compared to what? They have the speed of tanks, immortals and sentries. And a lot of other stuff. 2.25 is average speed, it´s "siege unit" slow. If you look around all other siege units are less mobile.
Name Cost HP Damage DPS Range Movement Colossus 300/200/6 150/200 15x2 (AOE) 18.2 6+3 2.25
-Change damage from 15x2 to 20x2 (+5x2 vs Light) -Reduce attack speed to 3 from 1.65 -The Colossus now shows a targeting line where it will fire, charges its attack for 1/3rd of a second, then fires its twin lances. These lances are slower than their current counterparts and, most importantly, able to be dodged.
So you're reducing colossus DPS from 18.2 to 13.33 (16.67 vs light) AND with a delay AND with more overkill.
Fine.
What do you give Protoss in return?
edit: fixed maths
It one-shots marines with AoE from range 9. It would essentially make the colossus an anti-light unit, though, 13.3 dps against roaches and stalkers is a huge nerf.
I would love that attack style for the colossus so much. It looks so much more intimidating than the standard laser beams, and would more importantly be micro friendly.
Changing the Colossus in this way should have been done a long time ago.
The problem in this game is the tier 3 units imo. People rather sit on 3 base and turtle up to a T3 deathball than move out, skirmish, fight for expansions, etc.
EPT
