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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
On October 19 2012 07:30 Fungal Growth wrote: In most RTS games ranged units are NOT mobile...and for good reason. Mobile ranged units = unstoppable deathballs that need equally ridiculous counters. What about Terran Bio? probably the most mobile force in the game? | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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Fungal Growth
United States434 Posts
On October 19 2012 08:04 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: They aren't siege units (what I intended to say).. What about Terran Bio? probably the most mobile force in the game? That's not to say that marine/marauder are problematic though and need fixes on their own right. | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
On October 19 2012 07:40 Zergrusher wrote: Lower the collosi's Shields from 150 down to 100 Siege units are slower and/or have low HP does it make sense now? With lower HP, it does 2 things. 1) it makes protoss pay attention to there collosi now, because they are more fragile. 2) the opponent doesn't have to over commit on collosi killers as much, because the collosi will take less damage to kill. It opens up many strategic options for both sides. Absolutely not. Here's what this would change: bio stims in, vikings shoot colossi, maybe some stalkers focus fire the vikings, and the colossi end up dying slightly faster. That's it. You don't fucking micro your colossi versus vikings because it does jack shit. You lose too much damage in a futile attempt to run away. As for point number two, it's still going to be the same, except you'll just end up wanting slightly less vikings. 50 health nerf to the colossus isn't going to do anything at all. Buffing the damage and making the attack dodgeable is way better, it promotes micro on the part of the opponent and makes attention an abusable resource in fights. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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Fenris420
Sweden213 Posts
I just want to point out that the slower an attack is, the more susceptible it becomes to certain health ranges. Say colossus did 100 damage but fired once per minute, and there was a terran or zerg unit with 101 hp. You get the point. I guess at the same time that reinforces the need for the colossus to have backup, which is probably just a good thing. I have to say that I don't understand where all the hate is coming from with the colossus. There are plenty of ways to position and micro them if you want to keep them alive. Most of the problem is that the need for damage output outweights the need to reposition. Marines can stutter step, colossus can't. So if you want to see more colossus micro, reduce the damage that the opponents army does so that you can actually survive long enough to position properly. The only problem I have with the unit itself is that as long as they dont get hardcountered by air, having more is always better than the alternatives. I feel a part of that is because gateway units are not up to the task, but there are plenty of threads about that already. Truth to be told, I cannot remember which one of the many threads were made by whom. The thing about reavers was that you never wanted 8 of them at one location. There was just never any point in that. Colossus is different, it is all about breaking the critical mass of the opponent asap. For that you want front loaded damage and lots of it. Maybe this will change to some extent since Blizzard is trying to break the balls up. What I like about OPs suggestion is the damage bonus to light. I know people don't like damage bonuses, but Protoss really does not need colossus to counter armored. Immortal/Zealot/VR does that plenty well as is. If the colossus becomes weaker to armor, there is a definite tech path to counter it even without air. Because the problem is that the colossus is too good in some cases. Even if it means protoss as a race gets weaker until other units are buffed appropriately, we have to reduce the importance of colossus in the overall protoss play imo. | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
The collosi has several advatages that all other siege units(Broodlord,siege tank) in sc2 just don't have. 1) high HP(Heath/shields) 2) 100% mobility 3) perfect splash damage 100% of the time( linear splash thats horizontal combined with how concaves work) Reduce the shields from 150 to 100 its always been that simple. | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
But as someone else suggested in this thread (and has been discussed to death as well), the collussus shouldn't be able to be attacked by air. It's an interesting feature but has too many disadvantages even limiting game play and options (opponent counters collussus with anti-air, opponent already has anti-air against any possible stargate transitions etc plus many more problems). | ||
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rollAdice
Germany32 Posts
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
On October 19 2012 09:25 rollAdice wrote: That wouldn't change anything, just tip the favor in engagements towards terrans/zergs, which is not necessary. In fact protoss needs a way to deal with bioballs without relying on the colossus, because once they are gone nothing can stand up against it. The TvP matchup is pretty awful to watch right now, Terrans have to get vikings only to deal with colossus and protoss has to get stalkers to deal with the vikings which however suck against the bio-army and once ghosts arrive there is no alternative to colossi. The matchup is decided by either the vikings killing the colossi before they kill the bio-army or vice versa, a 15-20 minute game that is decided within seconds without chance for recovery. By itself, yes, a more brittle Colossus hurts the game. | ||
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Jaegan
United States11 Posts
On October 19 2012 09:23 wcr.4fun wrote: zergrusher you are clueless. Stop reposting your awful idea (which would have no influence at all besides probably shifting balance into zerg/terran's advantage.) in this great thread. But as someone else suggested in this thread (and has been discussed to death as well), the collussus shouldn't be able to be attacked by air. It's an interesting feature but has too many disadvantages even limiting game play and options (opponent counters collussus with anti-air, opponent already has anti-air against any possible stargate transitions etc plus many more problems). This ^^ Personally I would like to see a colossus that can't be hit by air,but reduce damage and give a bonus vs light (just an idea, would need a fair bit of testing first), then you have colossi vs light and immortals vs armored from robo. That will also free up the possibility of buffing the abysmal toss air. Maybe something like this and changes to FFs and fungal (spells that physically stop your opponent from doing anything ftl), and I would be a happy camper. Changing FFs might necessitate some minor tweaking of gateway depending on how it's done, but buffing gateway units means warpgate timings might be too strong. Toss design really has some problems the more I think about it -.- | ||
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Culioz
Canada10 Posts
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
Answer me these questions. Whats a siege unit? what are the advantages and disadvantages of a siege unit? | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
The disadvantages of a siege unit can be many things. Mobility is the most common weakness. | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On October 19 2012 09:59 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: A siege unit is a unit with range 7+ as dictated by the range of static defenses. The disadvantages of a siege unit can be many things. Mobility is the most common weakness. Mobility and HP are common weaknesses of siege units. Does the collosi have those? | ||
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Alex1Sun
494 Posts
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Jaegan
United States11 Posts
On October 19 2012 09:56 Zergrusher wrote: Actaully I am not clueless. Answer me these questions. Whats a siege unit? what are the advantages and disadvantages of a siege unit? Fine, I'll give you the answer you're obviously looking for. Siege units are generally slow, do a lot of damage, and have a large range. Yes the colossus is faster than your average siege unit but, on the flip side, it is susceptible to both ground and air attacks unlike every other siege unit. So basically, yes the colossus is more mobile, but can be attacked by ANY unit in the game, which is a feature not shared by any other unit in SC2. You want to nerf the shields of the colossus? Fine. HOWEVER, you need to give something in return. Who knows, maybe nerfing colossi a bit and buffing something else may make the game more interesting/balanced as a whole. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On October 19 2012 09:59 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: A siege unit is a unit with range 7+ as dictated by the range of static defenses. The disadvantages of a siege unit can be many things. Mobility is the most common weakness. This leads directly to why the shield reduction idea misses the point. Colossus' main weakness is that it can be hit by AA. Being able to pull micro and recharge shields is a completely minor point in a game determined by production cycles on the 30 second scale (how long it takes to recharge shields). OP, your idea is similar to the one I've always favored which is a charge-up time on a slower but more powerful colossus attack. This builds anticipation and allows a lot more micro. Yay. ^^ You should change your attack rate number though. That's the delay between attacks, so the number should go up, not down. If you haven't implemented your changes yet, I'm not sure what good it does to advertise the map. I would try to talk to people at sc2mapster.com if you are having trouble making it work. The slow sweeping beam is a great idea but anything "dodgeable" in the sc2 engine is a huge pain to implement -- I'm not even sure how you would do that without a ton of special data design from scratch. The other changes would be relatively simple. | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On October 19 2012 10:09 Jaegan wrote: Fine, I'll give you the answer you're obviously looking for. Siege units are generally slow, do a lot of damage, and have a large range. Yes the colossus is faster than your average siege unit but, on the flip side, it is susceptible to both ground and air attacks unlike every other siege unit. So basically, yes the colossus is more mobile, but can be attacked by ANY unit in the game, which is a feature not shared by any other unit in SC2. You want to nerf the shields of the colossus? Fine. HOWEVER, you need to give something in return. Who knows, maybe nerfing colossi a bit and buffing something else may make the game more interesting/balanced as a whole. how much HP did the reaver from BW have again? and shure the collosi can be hit by anything in the game, but if you cocnider it the only weakness of the unit, then theres something wrong. the OP actaully has a good idea, I am just suggestion that the collosi be made more of a siege unit instead of the main DPS/damage of the protoss army. and if you think about it... the collosi leads to broodlords in ZVP and rarely ever carriers in PVT and PVZ | ||
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Jaegan
United States11 Posts
On October 19 2012 10:15 Zergrusher wrote: how much HP did the reaver from BW have again? and shure the collosi can be hit by anything in the game, but if you cocnider it the only weakness of the unit, then theres something wrong. the OP actaully has a good idea, I am just suggestion that the collosi be made more of a siege unit instead of the main DPS/damage of the protoss army. and if you think about it... the collosi leads to broodlords in ZVP and rarely ever carriers in PVT and PVZ Like I said, I'm fine with nerfs/changes to colossi if theres changes elsewhere as well. As for them leading to BL in PvZ, zerg going to make BL regardless because BL/fester/corrupter is their strongest army. Let's not talk about carriers, they're just bad in 99% of situations. | ||
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