EPT+5x2 base damage
and i'm with you
The Colossus: Old Fires Rekindled - Page 4
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InVerno
258 Posts
+5x2 base damage and i'm with you | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Anyway I agree on copying the lurker mechanic more directly, since the Colossus is basically the Sc2 Lurker. So that the aoe doesn't hit the unit but the ground instead, so if you run a marine towards it it wouldn't get hit. Unless the Protoss pays attention and redirects fire. But targetlines and increased delay are pretty bad Imo, thats something that really reduces the skill needed and adds unnecessary effects. Also would reduce the awesome level of the unit, as in when you pull of a giant hit on the opponent people would only think the other side didn't saw the voidzone. Only thing I would say would work, would be the lasers powering up for 0.1 second on their starting position. It would also removes this screen bug when you hit a stalker that is blinking, though it would be funny if the beam AoE would be increased 3 times that way. Well for the damage increase, as funny as it was reading a whole introduction just to see someone mentioning something that got changed asap, because it made the unit to easy. If the Colossus shots wouldn't instant hit and rather deal damage over the beams. (First version of the Colossus hit everything in a line at the same time, I guess they didn't bothered to much with adapting the mechanic to the changed animation) It would decrease the damage output and scale the unit with your opponents skill. The better he is the worse your colossus are unless you micro them. But if you increase the damage and lower the attack speed, you undo everything what the other change did. As the Colossus becomes easier to use. Kiting no issue you won't lose shots. And you just need one money shot instead of 2. At the end you would have reached the opposite of what you wanted. But the instant hit bothers me since WoL release. But for the damage, they decreased it to the maximum possible. Anything above breaks the game unimportant how hard it is to hit something. Just like the reduced the Siege Tank damage to the minimum possible without making it useless. You also have to take into consideration that the Colossus is supposed to hold of early aggression while you tech. If the opponent could ignore it at this stage of the game it would be a problem. Infestors had this problem at first, where gsl terrans said, if they go for fast Infestor I can pretty much win the game. | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On October 19 2012 17:19 FeyFey wrote: roflmao, love the change as it was removed in early WoL beta, because it was so damn easy to micro colossus, you could melt targetfire everything. Anyway I agree on copying the lurker mechanic more directly, since the Colossus is basically the Sc2 Lurker. So that the aoe doesn't hit the unit but the ground instead, so if you run a marine towards it it wouldn't get hit. Unless the Protoss pays attention and redirects fire. But targetlines and increased delay are pretty bad Imo, thats something that really reduces the skill needed and adds unnecessary effects. Also would reduce the awesome level of the unit, as in when you pull of a giant hit on the opponent people would only think the other side didn't saw the voidzone. Only thing I would say would work, would be the lasers powering up for 0.1 second on their starting position. It would also removes this screen bug when you hit a stalker that is blinking, though it would be funny if the beam AoE would be increased 3 times that way. Well for the damage increase, as funny as it was reading a whole introduction just to see someone mentioning something that got changed asap, because it made the unit to easy. If the Colossus shots wouldn't instant hit and rather deal damage over the beams. (First version of the Colossus hit everything in a line at the same time, I guess they didn't bothered to much with adapting the mechanic to the changed animation) It would decrease the damage output and scale the unit with your opponents skill. The better he is the worse your colossus are unless you micro them. But if you increase the damage and lower the attack speed, you undo everything what the other change did. As the Colossus becomes easier to use. Kiting no issue you won't lose shots. And you just need one money shot instead of 2. At the end you would have reached the opposite of what you wanted. But the instant hit bothers me since WoL release. But for the damage, they decreased it to the maximum possible. Anything above breaks the game unimportant how hard it is to hit something. Just like the reduced the Siege Tank damage to the minimum possible without making it useless. You also have to take into consideration that the Colossus is supposed to hold of early aggression while you tech. If the opponent could ignore it at this stage of the game it would be a problem. Infestors had this problem at first, where gsl terrans said, if they go for fast Infestor I can pretty much win the game. I agree with you. Aesthetically, the beams should be 20% bigger, criss-cross and be enough to one shot a worker. Such an engine of destruction should cost big at least 400/300. I think the way to define this mechanic is as a hidden siege mode. i.e. The Colossi has to "siege" to fire, displayed as a glow around its cannons followed by the loud shrill scream of 12,000ºC plasma beams as it cuts across the battle field. Edit: This results in more spectator friendly game play as "war-of-the-worlds spider thingies fuck shit up", and rewards micro from using FF to trap escaping units. | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
On October 19 2012 10:09 EatThePath wrote: This leads directly to why the shield reduction idea misses the point. Colossus' main weakness is that it can be hit by AA. Being able to pull micro and recharge shields is a completely minor point in a game determined by production cycles on the 30 second scale (how long it takes to recharge shields). OP, your idea is similar to the one I've always favored which is a charge-up time on a slower but more powerful colossus attack. This builds anticipation and allows a lot more micro. Yay. ^^ You should change your attack rate number though. That's the delay between attacks, so the number should go up, not down. If you haven't implemented your changes yet, I'm not sure what good it does to advertise the map. I would try to talk to people at sc2mapster.com if you are having trouble making it work. The slow sweeping beam is a great idea but anything "dodgeable" in the sc2 engine is a huge pain to implement -- I'm not even sure how you would do that without a ton of special data design from scratch. The other changes would be relatively simple. attacks being dodgeable is a piece of cake to make in the editor, i never understood why this feature isnt used more by units | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
It is basically a retardedly strong ground unit with few weaknesses except it's dual role as ground and air unit. Because of that the unit is balanced around the fact it can be countered by air and the options for that are balanced around it (viking and corruptor). As a result the viking and corruptor are very strong and push a tremendous amount of cool play / interesting units out of the game. BC's and carriers are useless because vikings/corruptors counter them too easily, simply making them stronger makes them imbalanced (as vikings and corruptors are the only good counters), nerfing vikings/corruptors however makes the colossus too strong. Also the colossus should have been a cool positional unit with it's role as cliff walker, however 1) it's positioning is not that relevant given how it's AoE works and it has no setup time 2) it's counters are flying units anyway. Because colossi are always countered by air anyways P the warp prism is also very unused, any time you have speed prism for example your opponent is already making AA.. To sum it up two things I think restrict a lot of cool gameplay in SC2: - most counters to air are air units themselves - the colossus needs to strong for protoss hence the air counters also need to be really strong These two combined push out almost any interesting air play in matchups involving protoss. Not only carriers / other air fleets are useless, tactical air play like dropping is rarely used as well. The colossus itself is very dull too because it does not have cool positioning (the counters can always reach it as they fly..) and it has no setup time or cool attack (like the reaver had). The impact of the colossus reaches even further as BC's are useless in any matchup for example just because the viking is balanced around the colossus. I would have loved to see some pivotal changes in HoTS regarding airplay and how it is countered. Especially it would be cool if one race would have to rely on ground units to counter air instead of air units itself, ONLY then can something as cool as carriers vs goliaths etc come back. For example give terran a mech unit like the goliath and nerf the viking or nerf the corruptor and let zerg be able to deal with air in other ways (hydra/roach + viper for example). That way capital ships could be used again as their ability to fly would actually matter (abuse terrain against ground based counters) plus colossi would be more interesting to use because their positioning would actually matter. Rebalancing colossus/viking/corruptor would finally allow some more diversity in gameplay based on maps as well, some maps would be good for colossi (lots of cliffs to walk over), some would just be for HT (open grounds) while others would be good for air (open space etc.). Now capital airships are just not viable and HT/colossi are pretty much interchangeable as colossi don't use their cliffwalking ability much anyways... If anything changing the viking/corruptor probably would do more than changing the colossus stats. The colossus can't be changed much by simply stats tweaking I think, it's role needs to be critically changed by either changing itself or the units that counter it.. | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On October 19 2012 07:53 Inquisitor1323 wrote: It should be more fragile... it takes so long to kill them that they are almost guaranteed to pay for themselves in damage dealt. Decreasing the shield seems like the best idea. Colossi die REALLY fast to Vikings and Corruptors past the mid-game. If you made Colossi any weaker you would also have to nerf marauders so that Toss could survive, they barely can now  .Colossi are not even a little bit overpowered (in PvT building too many colossi is pretty much the same as worker rushing in terms of effectiveness, PvZ it's less bad, but you still can't build too many), but the OP is right in that a redesign would be good. What I'd like to see (but probably won't happen): Increased damage but reduced attack rate: YES, this is a fantastic idea. Because there would be more front-loaded damage you would need to reduce overall DPS some (but not too much). This would also make prism+colossi WAY more viable. Reduce the speed of the Colossi, this would encourage prism+colossi play. Reduce range to 8: This would make the Colossi require more attention and also allow the following changes: Remove the Viking and Corruptor. Bring back the Goliath, allowing it to use it's long-range anti-air attack vs the Colossi. For Zerg, make broodlords morph from mutalisks. This would make mutas easier to transition from, making them a better option vs turtling Colossi Toss (although they are already amazing in this role, you pretty much have to just keep going mutas as it's hard to be able to afford Corruptors and then broods). With no corruptors and vikings, prism + colossi play would be much stronger, but Colossi without the prism would be next to useless, offensively (still strong defensively, which is GOOD). This would also indirectly buff carriers, which is nice .Zerg may need another anti-air unit to replace the corruptor, but I'd suggest it should be morphed from the muta (devourer style) and be MUCH less of a hard-counter to Carriers and Colossi. They won't be needed to defend broods from vikings either as Terran will be shooting broods with goliaths, which would be amazing at taking down broodlords .You're welcome DB, I just fucking solved Starcraft for ya (as long as you also remove the mothership and move the mothership core abilities to the nexus). | ||
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
you could actually use it tactically or to zone out the battlefield this would make having more colossi very micro intense, also the aoe should damage friendly units as well, so you have to be careful setting it up especially with zealots of course this would make it very similar to storm but right now its already very similar to that so i dont really see a problem | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On October 19 2012 22:08 summerloud wrote: i already suggested this in another thread, but making the colossus attack a permanent aoe effect that you have to manually set up on a given area like a spell would be cool you could actually use it tactically or to zone out the battlefield this would make having more colossi very micro intense, also the aoe should damage friendly units as well, so you have to be careful setting it up especially with zealots of course this would make it very similar to storm but right now its already very similar to that so i dont really see a problem Sounds complicated. If I could summarize the races into one word it would be: 1. Powerful 2. Adaptable 3. Unspeakable What you describe sounds more Terran than Protoss death rays. | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
On October 19 2012 23:30 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Sounds complicated. If I could summarize the races into one word it would be: 1. Powerful 2. Adaptable 3. Unspeakable What you describe sounds more Terran than Protoss death rays. im not even entirely sure which adjective is supposed to apply to which race all of the BW paradigms flew out of the windows with WoL anyways. protoss are now fragile space elves instead of powerful advanced aliens. terran are a fearsome empire instead of ragtag survivalists, zerg are still zerg i guess, but with less swarmy feel and actually the most powerful units in many cases the big hp/damage/cost differences arent there any more. i really disliked this aspect of WoL at the start but then i grew to like the new race characteristics | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
"There is a universally loved unit from BW that “hardcountered” many of the units that the Colossus does, but its design gave it opponents the ability to fight and kill the unit with good micro, positioning, and map awareness: the Lurker. It had a vertical linear aoe attack that devastated low hp units. This unit was amazing because you could micro your marines to DODGE the attacks. The anticipation of a column of marines approaching a den of lurkers thrilled, the drama that unfolded when a scan was dropped and the marines moved forward. Imagine if this mechanic were reintroduced into SC2, where units are so much more mobile. Imagine it with the Colossus. This could produce a dynamic with Robo based play that we currently only see in TvZ with Banelings vs Marines." It was great that microed marines could deal with lurkers. It was not great that lurkers had no good way to micro back. And technically, you can micro to a degree against colossus line attacks. Obviously it's quite hard in big battles. Maybe in 3 more years time, pros will be microing against it well enough using burrow movement or splitting. Either way, more micro options on both sides is preferred. But colossi are so clunky yet powerful in numbers, Blizz doesn't give them good stutter step or movement speed. And since a single colossus hits very softly, there is little opportunity to reaver shuttle micro them. Hence, not much micro. I think Blizzard figured you'd need to do more with other units... sentries, blink, storm, etc. so they left it alone. I wouldn't mind seeing some tweak to make colossus attacks more damaging when microed and less damaging when a-moved. That's always a good thing in my book. | ||
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Ketch
Netherlands7285 Posts
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RinconH
United States512 Posts
Having Vikings/Corrupters be as strong as they are now really makes air in the game boring. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Colossi aren't even particularly good in PvZ where they get owned by roaches before Protoss gets near max supply, and then by the time P maxes out, Z is nearly on broodlords against which colossi are just broodling vacuums. In PvZ, colossi have about a 60 second window where they kill spine crawlers and give Z a good scare before their broodlords finish morphing. | ||
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neggro
United States591 Posts
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xSTaRFiSHx
Germany176 Posts
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TheLunatic
309 Posts
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
Of course, that would be imba haha. | ||
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