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On October 27 2012 00:18 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 06:31 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
Name Cost HP Damage DPS Range Movement
Colossus 300/200/6 150/200 15x2 (AOE) 18.2 6+3 2.25
-Change damage from 15x2 to 20x2 (+5x2 vs Light)
-Reduce attack speed to 3 from 1.65
-The Colossus now shows a targeting line where it will fire, charges its attack for 1/3rd of a second, then fires its twin lances. These lances are slower than their current counterparts and, most importantly, able to be dodged.
So you're reducing colossus DPS from 18.2 to 13.33 (16.67 vs light) AND with a delay AND with more overkill. Fine. What do you give Protoss in return? edit: fixed maths
An Immortal at Cybercore for starters. Currently Toss as a ton of powerful aoe options, we have been testing a Void Ray remake that targets an area rather than a unit; after the charge up delay, it channels its beam to create a large aoe (2.5) damage over time effect that does extra damage to armored targets. It initially has range 5 which makes it more of a defensive unit, allowing Stargate builds to have some ground presence in the event of counter attacks, provided you positioned your VRs correctly. Fleet Beacon gives the Void Ray a +2 range upgrade on the ability, allowing Protoss very powerful area control at the cost of an army that can either be strong at zoning or mobile, but both at the same time. Carriers currently take 90 seconds to build, repair Interceptors and have a longer leash range, as well as starting withe the benefits of the Gravaton Catapult upgrade. There are many other things that we will get into later, but needless to say, Protoss has received a good deal of attention.
The reason the Colossus has less DPS is because it currently does everything pretty well. It is mobile, it has siege range, it has aoe, it does solid damage. This all contributes to Colossus-based armies to steamroll through enemy defenses, and encourages death ball play. Having less dps makes fights longer, having more damage gives it the ability to kill swaths of units, or pick off that high priority target if you are in position. The charge up time and dodgable attack gives the opponent the opportunity to mitigate some of the damage, and makes for a more exciting viewer experience. (Think reaver scarabs.)
Hope that answers your question!
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1/3rd second isn't much at all.
If I recall correctly, SC2 has a 0.4 second movement delay. This would change almost nothing, except for the fact that it can now miss against fast units - which are basically the units it was designed to counter.
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This is a really great idea if you haven't already please put this on the HoTS beta forum. I am willing to post it there if you have not already.
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why not just change the colossus attack from horizontal to vertical? then it kinda telegraphs the attack and it makes it less powerful in general. it would have the added bonus off making the protoss army better at retreating too, since units chasing the protoss army would kind up for terrible damage.
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I am not 100% sure what you are suggesting for the collusus, but I think a reduction in DPS and the ability to dodge the attack is a bit much IMO.
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You put your idea to an extreme, therefore it is really bad.
Maybe learn to use SC2 editor, design changes + post videos?
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On November 28 2012 08:41 Xanbatou wrote:
why not just change the colossus attack from horizontal to vertical? then it kinda telegraphs the attack and it makes it less powerful in general. it would have the added bonus off making the protoss army better at retreating too, since units chasing the protoss army would kind up for terrible damage.
this would make impossible to hold 10 minute bio-medivac push while going for colossi, as with low number of units this type of attack is kind of useless, hitting 1 or 2 unit if lucky.
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How about changing the Thermal lance from a horizontal line to a crescent (with the 2 ends pointing towards the enemy)? This change should discourage deathballs (as the crescent would fit the curve of the "ball" shape) while the enemy benefits from good positioning (a concave would reduce some of the AoE damage of the collosi).
Also, I think huge burst damage and lower DPS would be good on the collosus.
I would like some constructive criticism on this idea and how it can be improved, and not bullcrap about how OP this is and how this would make the collosus more imba and bla bla bla... Cause I know it might be.
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On November 28 2012 07:30 Monochromatic wrote:
1/3rd second isn't much at all.
If I recall correctly, SC2 has a 0.4 second movement delay. This would change almost nothing, except for the fact that it can now miss against fast units - which are basically the units it was designed to counter.
that is why they are creating a map to test it out. What you are doing is just random thero crafting and you actually dont know if it will have a effect or not. I belive thats one of the main point of the project is to have a lay out to test changes and se how they will work out instead of theory crafting. You might be right you might be wrong but atleast we will now it now since they will offically test it out. If it turns out as u say it will then they just change the delay.
This is for everyone saying that some of there changes might not work. We will know if it works or not when we can try the map out untill then its better to give suggestion on what u want to have in the game.
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How about just finally remove it and add in something decent that creates interesting gameplay?
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How about this: Make the thermal lance upgrade an ability.
Once thermal lance upgrade is done, Colossi will have an ability "Charge Thermal Lance".
1. The colossus will become immobile and unable to attack for 2.5 seconds while charging the thermal lance.
2. After charging, the colossus will have increased range (same as current thermal lance upgrade) and thermal lance damage (+5 damage?) for 3 attacks.
3. After the colossi have used up the 3 attacks, it will revert to normal range and normal damage until the ability is used again.
Of course numbers are tweakable.
For every N attacks, the colossi will have burst range and damage so there would be more strategic/deliberate control. Immobility during charging adds a positional element. Bad control can increase overkill, good control can mitigate it.
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How about:
1. Collosus is unattackable by air
2. Is slower (than the rest of the deathball)
3. Has a delayed damage and vertical attack path (lasers have to charge for a bit but hit original location).
Some nerfs and buffs all in one. Because the collosus is countered by air, it seems terran and zerg have to have stronger air than protoss (longer range vikings/ tougher corruptors). Furthermore this makes it very unsafe for protoss to switch to stargate T_T. And last but not least makes for terribly ugly collossi wars in WOL PvP because protoss air sucks vs collossi based balls. If it is slower and cannot be sniped by air it could be used as the positional unit that protoss needs. It would then hopefully be less useful in the deathball too because they cannot easily move with the rest of the army and defend multiple locations.
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On November 29 2012 13:22 winsonsonho wrote:
How about:
1. Collosus is unattackable by air
2. Is slower (than the rest of the deathball)
3. Has a delayed damage and vertical attack path (lasers have to charge for a bit but hit original location).
Some nerfs and buffs all in one. Because the collosus is countered by air, it seems terran and zerg have to have stronger air than protoss (longer range vikings/ tougher corruptors). Furthermore this makes it very unsafe for protoss to switch to stargate T_T. And last but not least makes for terribly ugly collossi wars in WOL PvP because protoss air sucks vs collossi based balls. If it is slower and cannot be sniped by air it could be used as the positional unit that protoss needs. It would then hopefully be less useful in the deathball too because they cannot easily move with the rest of the army and defend multiple locations.
Sounds like a siege tank...
I like it in its current form, if any tweak, I would prefer army units would prioritize colossi over other targets. Marauders SHOULD NOT be shooting at stalkers or immortals when there's a 12 storey dooms day machine in front of them!
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With all the talk about redesigning old units, I can hardly believe Colossus aren't on the chopping block.
It's been proven and proven again that the way opponents deal with colossus isn't interesting in any way - it is
TvP: Build vikings ZvP: Build corrupters PvP: Build more Colossus
Now for HOTS Colossus will likely be driven out of PvP which was a design goal of Blizzard's, but I have to say...if you're trying to make a unit sort of irrelevant in a match-up, doesn't it mean a redesign is likely needed?
This is a great video that funny enough was conceived at a talk by Riot that explains that any ability or mechanic should be interesting not just for the person using the ability/mechanic, but for the person/opponent playing against it.
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/counter-play
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On November 29 2012 14:02 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 13:22 winsonsonho wrote:
How about:
1. Collosus is unattackable by air
2. Is slower (than the rest of the deathball)
3. Has a delayed damage and vertical attack path (lasers have to charge for a bit but hit original location).
Some nerfs and buffs all in one. Because the collosus is countered by air, it seems terran and zerg have to have stronger air than protoss (longer range vikings/ tougher corruptors). Furthermore this makes it very unsafe for protoss to switch to stargate T_T. And last but not least makes for terribly ugly collossi wars in WOL PvP because protoss air sucks vs collossi based balls. If it is slower and cannot be sniped by air it could be used as the positional unit that protoss needs. It would then hopefully be less useful in the deathball too because they cannot easily move with the rest of the army and defend multiple locations. Sounds like a siege tank... I like it in its current form, if any tweak, I would prefer army units would prioritize colossi over other targets. Marauders SHOULD NOT be shooting at stalkers or immortals when there's a 12 storey dooms day machine in front of them!
Nope, sige tanks are immobile while in AOE damage mode.
This can be charged out of battle and used when in battle.
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All this talk about colossus just makes me miss the Reaver more.
The reaver was a great unit and very anti death ball (warp prism + reaver).
Also reaver wasn't that "random". Scarabs only get stuck if its path gets blocked by something. If you target correctly, you can reduce the likeliness of scarabs getting stuck. Also doing shuttle + reaver micro well really benefited the player (when a player microed reaver and shuttle well, you saw it, it's not like just because there is random factor that it reaver micro was pointless).
Finally, there is inherited randomness in SC2 - blind build order counters, getting caught out of position due to lack of information, etc.
The only true way to get rid of that huge randomness (emphasize huge), is for both players to have vision of each other from the start (like chess).
Otherwise, the game will always have some form of randomness. (Plus again, Scarabs weren't that random.
Adding back old units seem to be out of the question but for the health of the game, I wonder if they should add some sort of unit selection thing (like add lots of units into the game, like +10 to each race, and allow each player to pick 15 out of 30-40 units each game. Both players know which units they picked). This would kind of be like that Dota (each team gets 5 heroes, but you can select from a huge pool). This adds a huge layer into the game. It could be a different game mode to test it out. (Though all the work is really just an excuse to get the reaver into the game >.>.)
Reavers could also have hold fire (ghost ability which prevents auto firing) and weapons free, this allows more reaver micro (you can now target directly without reaver auto attacking, allowing more precise scarabs).
Honestly, from a spectator point of view, nothing beats the reaver in terms of micro potential (especially if they were added back in with hold fire and weapons free abilities, which allows manually attacking).
A charged colossus attacks is okay but IMO, it wouldn't be too different than just dodging storms (and dodging storms isn't that exciting in SC2 since it's relatively easy to move out). Even the idea of colossus attacking the ground isn't that interesting. I mean, it just feels too similar to other things in like many other games. It'd feel too similar to nukes, spells with casting times that do AoE (like in Dota), etc.
The colossus charging idea feels too generic (not that it isn't a bad idea, it's just I don't think colossus can be changed to be as interesting as... the reaver!). The reaver did add a lot of fun to the game. IMO, Blizzard should try readding it unless they're still in the "we don't want to add too many units, it would over complicate the game" or "no old units, this is SC2 not BW; go play BW if you want to play BW" mood (which I disagree with). Unlike the lurker (which IMO, I think the Swarm Host is better... the lurker feels too much like other units), and unlike other old units, I feel the reaver doesn't have its counterpart in SC2.
The reaver was really unique. So yeah, I'm not just a BW elitist or a person with nostalgia glasses on, I like the swarm host over the lurker (at least in SC2's environment) but there isn't anything that is better (or even close to) the reaver in SC2.
Edit - Also, the Reaver added micro potential to both players. You have to target fire the unit you'll likely think the scarab will do the most damage and not miss, while the opponent has to dodge the scarab or split their army to minimize the damage. Plus that and shuttle micro too (and opponents attempting to destroy the shuttle).
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I like the OP's suggestion much better than changing the shields, or any of the other suggestions I've read, though the numbers may need to be adjusted. Making the lances dodgeable and subject to overkill could make it so that extremely well microed lings, marines, reapers or other units that usually have no chance against collossi based armies without viking support could beat unmicroed deathballs. You would still want to get the vikings/corrupters, but you wouldn't be entirely unable to engage.
I don't have a problem with how the collosus is now--I die more to storm these days, but I like this proposed change. I also liked dodging THWOMPS in Mario.
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On November 29 2012 15:06 DrowSwordsman wrote:With all the talk about redesigning old units, I can hardly believe Colossus aren't on the chopping block. It's been proven and proven again that the way opponents deal with colossus isn't interesting in any way - it is TvP: Build vikings ZvP: Build corrupters PvP: Build more Colossus Now for HOTS Colossus will likely be driven out of PvP which was a design goal of Blizzard's, but I have to say...if you're trying to make a unit sort of irrelevant in a match-up, doesn't it mean a redesign is likely needed? This is a great video that funny enough was conceived at a talk by Riot that explains that any ability or mechanic should be interesting not just for the person using the ability/mechanic, but for the person/opponent playing against it. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/counter-play
Great vid and I completely agree with you. There should be more ways to deal with Colossi..
SC2 is full of 1 unit hard-counters:
- immortal >> tank
- hellbat >> zealot/ling
- corrupter >>> colossus
- viking >>> colossus
- high templar >> thor
- thor >> mutas
- infestor >> everything 
- others
I dislike these obvious and boring counters. Make it a little less straight forward please blizzard.. We can play rock, paper, scissors for free with our hands..
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Couple of ideas I had, inspired by this thread:
1. Change the AOE path by 90 degrees. Currently Colossus is auto-awesome against units trying to kill it, because they spread themselves to get optimally hit. If the AOE were towards/away from the colossus then flanking becomes more effective and Colossus positoning more important (they're potentially least effective when munged in with the rest of a deathball)
2. Passive ability: Precharge. The titanic power for the colossus lasers is dispensed from vast internal batteries, trickle-charged by the on-board fusion core. This makes the first laser sweep incredibly powerful, but subsequent attacks weaker until the batteries are allowed to recharge again (like a reverse Void Ray). Baiting attacks is now very worthwhile, as is proper micro of Colossus to bring them into combat at the right moment to maximise their effectiveness.
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On October 19 2012 07:40 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 06:57 Foxxan wrote:
#zergrusher
What? I dont understand why.
#To op, (the one that wrote this post), i dont know what op means.
I like this change, what i would like alot more is if the delayshot is not linear but a circle instead, NOT BIG circle , but not a dot either.
I would love that change, i dont really know why excactly.
What do u think of that? U must have thought about it Lower the collosi's Shields from 150 down to 100 Siege units are slower and/or have low HP does it make sense now? With lower HP, it does 2 things. 1) it makes protoss pay attention to there collosi now, because they are more fragile. 2) the opponent doesn't have to over commit on collosi killers as much, because the collosi will take less damage to kill. It opens up many strategic options for both sides.
No it doesn't all it changes jack all; all it does is make it so that your opponent need to make slightly fewer corruptors. You still have the same boring dynamics as you do now, except terran/zerg are stronger.
What you mean 'makes you pay attention' what are you gonna do, micro them away from 9 range flying units?
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EPT
