In 2503, the Protoss set aside their honor in the pursuit of vengeance. Through the first Great War, the Conclave’s laws forbid methods of war considered cruel or low. Even the mighty Tassadar aimed to bring swift death to the Overmind. The days of compassion have long since passed. Aiur has fallen; the Matriarch lies slain, alliances have broken, and the enemy is legion. With so many crimes there is but one recourse: the activation of the Dread Machines. Justice is long overdue: Death has come to the enemies of Auir, and there is no ground high enough to save them.
Identity and Mechanics
The Colossus is war engine so powerful, so terrible, that the Protoss sealed them away on faraway worlds, never to be used again. Colossus were never tools of peace like the Reaver and Observer, they have been, and always will be tools of genocide. This walker is intended to stride above the ruins of besieged settlements and incinerate the fleeing populous, military and civilian.There is no compassion, no honor, only killing. This grim power is mechanically reflected in its towering size and it’s sweeping thermal lance weapons. Cliffs and barricades are no obstacle for this construct; no place is safe. Its horizontal linear attack communicate that infantry and workers are ideal targets. So long as a Colossus walks upon the map, the enemy should know fear. Thematically, the Colossus is a fantastic face for a new, more vengeful Protoss.
Mechanics and Gameplay
The Colossus is one of the more controversial additions to the Protoss army. Due to the current structure of Protoss and the metagame, it is essential to bring powerful support units with AoE to the field of battle. However, the Colossus’s current iteration creates problems from a gameplay standpoint. Unlike Storm, EMP, or Siege Tank, Widow Mines, or Banelings, the Colossus is a unit with high reward and low risk, and requires less planning than its counterparts to be effective. Furthermore, colossus based armies can create a runaway power effect, snowballing into an overwhelming victory for Protoss. This is a common sight across all matchups. For a ready example of this snowball effect, look at the recent HerO vs Parting match on Cloud Kingdom during the Blizzard World Championship . To understand why this dynamic exists, lets look at the Colossus versus other powerful support units in Starcraft 2.
Name Cost HP Damage DPS Range Movement Colossus 300/200/6 150/200 15x2 (AOE) 18.2 6+3 2.25 Tempest 300/200/4 150/300 25+35 Mass 7.58 19 1.875 High Templar 50/150/2 40/40 80 AOE spell 20 9 1.88 Siege Tank 150/125/3 160 35+15 Armored 16.7+1.7 13 2.25/0 Raven 100/200/2 140 100+diminish AOE-- 6 2.25 Broodlord 300/250/4 225 20 (+20 first strike) 8 9 1.4 Infestor 100/150/2 90 30 +10 A AOE Spell 7.5 9 2.25
The first point to note is that many support units with either great range or AoE are slow. The Siege Tank forgoes all movement to gain its range and aoe damage. The Tempest is slow and must rely upon spotting units to maximize its effectiveness. The High Templar is slow and fragile for its cost and can only use its absurdly powerful AOE spell twice in any given encounter. Broodlords have long range and produce living walls to hold the enemy in place, however, they have no aoe. Meaning that large numbers of mobile units like stalkers or stimmed marines can jump on and destroy Broodlords with relative ease (at least until they reach a critical number.) The Raven has the most damaging spell in the game, however it requires the Raven to close to accurately deliver its payload and only one Missile is allowed per Raven in a fight. All of these things produce tension and allow counterplay (Fungal+Broodlings is the notable and lamentable exception). The Colossus’s issue is that it has so much power without opportunity for counterplay (using AA against a colossus is not real counterplay, that is “fielding counters”). The Colossus can have siege range AoE at a standard movespeed and only slightly less DPS than a High Templar’s Psionic Storm ability as an auto attack. As is, the Colossus provides a false choice between Stargate and Robo Support, you can have an expensive set of units without aoe with good range, or you can have a support unit that scales with standard army upgrades, requires less positioning and management to be effective, and has fewer means of countering it. AA works on both tech paths, but the Colossus smokes Marines and Hydras. In its current implementation, the Colossus actively hinders good stargate play without bringing much gameplay to the table.
Uncertainty, Anticipation and Skill
The big thing to take away from this is not that the Colossus is an inherently bad unit idea. It isn’t. In fact, it has one HUGE thing up on the Reaver which Day9 mentioned: it’s attacks are not random unlike Scarab pathing, which would punish players even when they were making good decisions. Now I know the traditionalist response here. “Randomness makes the game more exciting become the outcome is uncertain.” Yes, this is true, but let me run this strawman through: randomness is a cheap and insubstantial way of producing uncertainty. Uncertainty is a core element of fun, but it needs to be done in a way that rewards skill in an esport. The thing the Reaver DID do so much better is the building sense of anticipation as the Scarab streaked wildly to its target. THAT element is missing from the Colossus, and Protoss in general. The Raven and the Baneling do these things, Widow Mines will eventually do this.
What I find so startling is just how close the Colossus is to being one of the best esport units ever made. It has a readable, predictable attack, that has a unique aoe geometry to it. It has some unique mobility options and a strong racial theme behind it. It is only missing a mechanic to build anticipation and excitement in battle -- excitement that can only be made if opponents have a chance to change the outcome with smart play.
Just like storm. You will never see that with the colossus. Yet.
Counterplay and Lessons Learned
There is a universally loved unit from BW that “hardcountered” many of the units that the Colossus does, but its design gave it opponents the ability to fight and kill the unit with good micro, positioning, and map awareness: the Lurker. It had a vertical linear aoe attack that devastated low hp units. This unit was amazing because you could micro your marines to DODGE the attacks. The anticipation of a column of marines approaching a den of lurkers thrilled, the drama that unfolded when a scan was dropped and the marines moved forward. Imagine if this mechanic were reintroduced into SC2, where units are so much more mobile. Imagine it with the Colossus. This could produce a dynamic with Robo based play that we currently only see in TvZ with Banelings vs Marines.
More Damage, less DPS
The Protoss are not about DPS so much as they are about hitting hard. A zealot has high dps, but it what makes it protoss it how it does 16 damage per attack. Compare that to the 6 damage of the marine, or the 5 damage of the Zergling. The Reaver was the same. It had the worst attack delay of any unit in the game, yet did a whopping 100 (+25) damage a shot. Since the Colossus is the thematic successor to the Reaver, supposed to be even more terrifying, it should act like one. And it just so happens that being the thematic successor gives us a great way to introduce counterplay.
Suggested Changes These changes are intended to make the Colossus provide more counterplay and anticipation when used without damaging its identity as a towering dread machine.
Change Set
-A More Exciting Colossus -Change damage from 15x2 to 20x2 (+5x2 vs Light) -Reduce attack speed to 3 from 1.65 -The Colossus now shows a targeting line where it will fire, charges its attack for 1/3rd of a second, then fires its twin lances. These lances are slower than their current counterparts and, most importantly, able to be dodged.
This also means that Colossus are more likely to overkill, providing a soft cap to the effectiveness of colossus heavy compositions, and in turn reducing the snowballing effect of “whoever has more colossus wins”. It also rewards split attack micro commands to herd units from one lance into another.
Projected Changes: Now the Colossus is still a reasonably mobile and devastating unit, however, its damage can be mitigated by good positioning and micro. Bio armies may be able to engage Colossus based armies directly if they have a good angle or if they can bait out an attack. The more Colossus you have in your army, the less effective your AoE will be given that they will often target the same set of units. This will hopefully reduce the snowball effect large Colossi based armies have in PvP and PvZ. This also allows for a more harras oriented role to the Colossus in the form of Warp Prism drops. A more powerful colossi that can 1 shot workers is pretty scary, however, good splitting can mitigate that damage, or even allow marines to hunt down and kill a lone Colossus. Such gameplay is the stuff of highlight reels. Finally, the firing delay builds a sense of anticipation and dread between the players and audience: the Protoss have set upon their foe with all of their fury and anger. It is a David vs Goliath fight, a literal war of the worlds.
A call to arms: currently we have a map in production that implements these key changes for testing: the OneVoice PTR. This Colossus is a bit tricky getting it to get working properly; any mapsters out there who want to help out, please message me.
@Zergrusher: Lowering the shield punishes poor micro, but having a readable firing delay gives a reaver-like feeling of anticipation and rewards splitting up your target-fires. Nerfing shields by 50 is worth testing though.
@ Fencar You can comment on Reddit if you want to really wade in on the frucus. >.>
#To op, (the one that wrote this post), i dont know what op means. I like this change, what i would like alot more is if the delayshot is not linear but a circle instead, NOT BIG circle , but not a dot either.
I would love that change, i dont really know why excactly. What do u think of that? U must have thought about it
That is an interesting question, I think they both serve similar roles. The difference is one front loads its damage at the cost of being slow and fragile. While the other focuses strictly on ground damage, is more expensive (supply wise).
On October 19 2012 06:57 Foxxan wrote: #zergrusher What? I dont understand why.
#To op, (the one that wrote this post), i dont know what op means. I like this change, what i would like alot more is if the delayshot is not linear but a circle instead, NOT BIG circle , but not a dot either.
I would love that change, i dont really know why excactly. What do u think of that? U must have thought about it
A crescent firing sweep would be interesting! Will put that on the test list!
That is all nice and sweet to be able to dodge colossus attacks but the best counter to colossus are still vikings and corruptors and that hurts the variety of the protoss army
I like your ideas alot.They also would be easy to implement for blizzard and would have an huge impact on gamplay and on the spectator.Your post is also very well written, was a pleasure to read.
I've always thought the colossus is way too mobile for its role, especially since it can ignore terrain with cliffwalk. I do like the idea of tweaking the firing rate cooldown. 1/3 of a second is not a very readable delay though, it's still just an anticipation game at that length. It'll take that long just to see that it's firing and then there is no time to react. Crescent aoe sounds cool, but might be a little too powerful of a shape since that's how an enemy concave will attack.
On October 19 2012 07:27 Fyrewolf wrote: I've always thought the colossus is way too mobile for its role, especially since it can ignore terrain with cliffwalk. I do like the idea of tweaking the firing rate cooldown. 1/3 of a second is not a very readable delay though, it's still just an anticipation game at that length. It'll take that long just to see that it's about to firing and then there is no time to react. Crescent aoe sounds cool, but might be a little too powerful of a shape since that's how an enemy concave will attack.
Charge up time is a very malleable thing, half a second may be too long, ect. It will come down to testing.
The one weakness that the colossi has is that it is vulnerable to air-to-air units...but this is too simplistic. If you don't have vikings/corrupters, then colossi are OP. If you have enough than colossi are too weak.
This rewards boring build order wins and deathballs. The colossi needs to lose it's ridiculous air weakness, while getting nerfed on the ground to make the game more dynamic. In most RTS games siege units are NOT mobile...and for good reason. Mobile siege units = unstoppable deathballs that need equally ridiculous counters. The colossi is too fast. Not only in its base movement speed, but also in its ability to step on units and over cliffs. Nerfing it's mobility should be priority #1. Then, thermal lance needs to be reduced....this way the colossi can still be a great unit again say mass zergling/marine, but not an untouchable unit that requires specialty counter units (vikings/corrupter).
The reaver is an example of what robo units should be. In that it has a huge weakness in it's mobility encourages strategic variation and discourages deathballs.
On October 19 2012 06:57 Foxxan wrote: #zergrusher What? I dont understand why.
#To op, (the one that wrote this post), i dont know what op means. I like this change, what i would like alot more is if the delayshot is not linear but a circle instead, NOT BIG circle , but not a dot either.
I would love that change, i dont really know why excactly. What do u think of that? U must have thought about it
Lower the collosi's Shields from 150 down to 100
Siege units are slower and/or have low HP
does it make sense now?
With lower HP, it does 2 things.
1) it makes protoss pay attention to there collosi now, because they are more fragile.
2) the opponent doesn't have to over commit on collosi killers as much, because the collosi will take less damage to kill.
It opens up many strategic options for both sides.
Surprisingly good OP, but it's pretty hard to find the projected change in the wall of text. Maybe bold it or tl;dr it or something.
People have been suggesting something like this for a while. I'm completely in favour of a high-damage long-(re)charge attack for the colossus, because it would cause the unit to both telegraph its attacks and become more microable.
The biggest problem with it right now is the way that its fast-recycle attack punishes micro; if you so much as touch it in combat, you lose dps, and this fixes that so long as it can dance.
The details need to be worked out, though. I'm not a big fan of a shiny "I'm about to attack here!" laser. It would be possible to roughly predict where it's going to fire anyway, based on its facing. There's also other stuff. What happens if its targeted unit dies before the beam fires? What if everything units moves out of the way of the beam?
It's worth pointing out that higher damage-per-shot - particularly on a delayed attack - is going to greatly increase the unit's propensity to overkill and waste fire, especially if the opponent is actively microing to avoid it. Now, that's not a bad thing at all, in fact I think it's great... but I do think you're underestimating how big a nerf a delayed firing pattern is. Especially in a world where siege tanks smart-fire, I think its damage boost needs to be much, much larger to compensate.
On October 19 2012 07:43 Belisarius wrote: Surprisingly good OP, but it's pretty hard to find the projected change in the wall of text. Maybe bold it or tl;dr it or something.
People have been suggesting something like this for a while. I'm completely in favour of a high-damage long-(re)charge attack for the colossus, because it would cause the unit to both telegraph its attacks and become more microable. The biggest problem with it right now is the way that its fast-recycle attack punishes micro; if you so much as touch it in combat, you lose dps.
The details need to be worked out, though.
I'm not a big fan of a great big "I'm about to attack here!" laser. It would be possible to roughly predict where it's going to fire anyway, based on its facing.
There's also other details. What happens if its targeted unit dies before the beam fires? What if everything units moves out of the way of the beam? It's also worth pointing out that higher damage-per-shot - particularly on a delayed attack - is going to greatly increase the unit's propensity to overkill and waste fire.
It becomes very dodgeable and requires a lot of direction to use well. Now, that's not a bad thing at all. In fact it's a great change, but I do think you're underestimating how much a delayed firing pattern would nerf the unit. Especially in a world where siege tanks smart-fire, I think its damage boost needs to be much, much larger to compensate.
You should read my articles on Protoss Identity, Zerg, and Terran Identity. I talk about all the stuff you are bringing up. This stuff is malleable. Numbers are easy to change. Design is hard. The focus of this article is to promote changes that bring the Colossus in line for a more healthy game.
It should be more fragile... it takes so long to kill them that they are almost guaranteed to pay for themselves in damage dealt. Decreasing the shield seems like the best idea.
On October 19 2012 07:30 Fungal Growth wrote: The one weakness that the colossi has is that it is vulnerable to air-to-air units...but this is too simplistic. If you don't have vikings/corrupters, then colossi are OP. If you have enough than colossi are too weak.
This rewards boring build order wins and deathballs. The colossi needs to lose it's ridiculous air weakness, while getting nerfed on the ground to make the game more dynamic. In most RTS games ranged units are NOT mobile...and for good reason. Mobile ranged units = unstoppable deathballs that need equally ridiculous counters. The colossi is too fast. Not only in its base movement speed, but also in its ability to step on units and over cliffs. Nerfing it's mobility should be priority #1. Then, thermal lance needs to be reduced....this way the colossi can still be a great unit again say mass zergling/marine, but not an untouchable unit that requires specialty counter units (vikings/corrupter).
The reaver is an example of what robo units should be. In that it has a huge weakness in it's mobility encourages strategic variation and discourages deathballs.
They are never really that weak unless you have like 30 vikings, in which case your ground army is going to get raped.
On October 19 2012 07:30 Fungal Growth wrote: In most RTS games ranged units are NOT mobile...and for good reason. Mobile ranged units = unstoppable deathballs that need equally ridiculous counters.
What about Terran Bio? probably the most mobile force in the game?
On October 19 2012 07:30 Fungal Growth wrote: In most RTS games ranged units are NOT mobile...and for good reason. Mobile ranged units = unstoppable deathballs that need equally ridiculous counters.
What about Terran Bio? probably the most mobile force in the game?
They aren't siege units (what I intended to say)..
That's not to say that marine/marauder are problematic though and need fixes on their own right.
On October 19 2012 06:57 Foxxan wrote: #zergrusher What? I dont understand why.
#To op, (the one that wrote this post), i dont know what op means. I like this change, what i would like alot more is if the delayshot is not linear but a circle instead, NOT BIG circle , but not a dot either.
I would love that change, i dont really know why excactly. What do u think of that? U must have thought about it
Lower the collosi's Shields from 150 down to 100
Siege units are slower and/or have low HP
does it make sense now?
With lower HP, it does 2 things.
1) it makes protoss pay attention to there collosi now, because they are more fragile.
2) the opponent doesn't have to over commit on collosi killers as much, because the collosi will take less damage to kill.
It opens up many strategic options for both sides.
Absolutely not. Here's what this would change: bio stims in, vikings shoot colossi, maybe some stalkers focus fire the vikings, and the colossi end up dying slightly faster. That's it. You don't fucking micro your colossi versus vikings because it does jack shit. You lose too much damage in a futile attempt to run away. As for point number two, it's still going to be the same, except you'll just end up wanting slightly less vikings. 50 health nerf to the colossus isn't going to do anything at all. Buffing the damage and making the attack dodgeable is way better, it promotes micro on the part of the opponent and makes attention an abusable resource in fights.
EXCELLENT THREAD. Couldn't have said it better myself. Why is this thread so good? Because it isn't a straight whine thread, nor is it a "remove colossus completely from the game" thread. I really like the idea that was put forth and I hope blizzard listens.
I like this topic and support the changes pretty much across the board.
I just want to point out that the slower an attack is, the more susceptible it becomes to certain health ranges. Say colossus did 100 damage but fired once per minute, and there was a terran or zerg unit with 101 hp. You get the point. I guess at the same time that reinforces the need for the colossus to have backup, which is probably just a good thing.
I have to say that I don't understand where all the hate is coming from with the colossus. There are plenty of ways to position and micro them if you want to keep them alive. Most of the problem is that the need for damage output outweights the need to reposition. Marines can stutter step, colossus can't. So if you want to see more colossus micro, reduce the damage that the opponents army does so that you can actually survive long enough to position properly.
The only problem I have with the unit itself is that as long as they dont get hardcountered by air, having more is always better than the alternatives.
I feel a part of that is because gateway units are not up to the task, but there are plenty of threads about that already. Truth to be told, I cannot remember which one of the many threads were made by whom.
The thing about reavers was that you never wanted 8 of them at one location. There was just never any point in that. Colossus is different, it is all about breaking the critical mass of the opponent asap. For that you want front loaded damage and lots of it. Maybe this will change to some extent since Blizzard is trying to break the balls up.
What I like about OPs suggestion is the damage bonus to light. I know people don't like damage bonuses, but Protoss really does not need colossus to counter armored. Immortal/Zealot/VR does that plenty well as is. If the colossus becomes weaker to armor, there is a definite tech path to counter it even without air. Because the problem is that the colossus is too good in some cases. Even if it means protoss as a race gets weaker until other units are buffed appropriately, we have to reduce the importance of colossus in the overall protoss play imo.
zergrusher you are clueless. Stop reposting your awful idea (which would have no influence at all besides probably shifting balance into zerg/terran's advantage.) in this great thread.
But as someone else suggested in this thread (and has been discussed to death as well), the collussus shouldn't be able to be attacked by air. It's an interesting feature but has too many disadvantages even limiting game play and options (opponent counters collussus with anti-air, opponent already has anti-air against any possible stargate transitions etc plus many more problems).
That wouldn't change anything, just tip the favor in engagements towards terrans/zergs, which is not necessary. In fact protoss needs a way to deal with bioballs without relying on the colossus, because once they are gone nothing can stand up against it. The TvP matchup is pretty awful to watch right now, Terrans have to get vikings only to deal with colossus and protoss has to get stalkers to deal with the vikings which however suck against the bio-army and once ghosts arrive there is no alternative to colossi. The matchup is decided by either the vikings killing the colossi before they kill the bio-army or vice versa, a 15-20 minute game that is decided within seconds without chance for recovery.
On October 19 2012 09:25 rollAdice wrote: That wouldn't change anything, just tip the favor in engagements towards terrans/zergs, which is not necessary. In fact protoss needs a way to deal with bioballs without relying on the colossus, because once they are gone nothing can stand up against it. The TvP matchup is pretty awful to watch right now, Terrans have to get vikings only to deal with colossus and protoss has to get stalkers to deal with the vikings which however suck against the bio-army and once ghosts arrive there is no alternative to colossi. The matchup is decided by either the vikings killing the colossi before they kill the bio-army or vice versa, a 15-20 minute game that is decided within seconds without chance for recovery.
By itself, yes, a more brittle Colossus hurts the game.
On October 19 2012 09:23 wcr.4fun wrote: zergrusher you are clueless. Stop reposting your awful idea (which would have no influence at all besides probably shifting balance into zerg/terran's advantage.) in this great thread.
But as someone else suggested in this thread (and has been discussed to death as well), the collussus shouldn't be able to be attacked by air. It's an interesting feature but has too many disadvantages even limiting game play and options (opponent counters collussus with anti-air, opponent already has anti-air against any possible stargate transitions etc plus many more problems).
This ^^
Personally I would like to see a colossus that can't be hit by air,but reduce damage and give a bonus vs light (just an idea, would need a fair bit of testing first), then you have colossi vs light and immortals vs armored from robo. That will also free up the possibility of buffing the abysmal toss air. Maybe something like this and changes to FFs and fungal (spells that physically stop your opponent from doing anything ftl), and I would be a happy camper. Changing FFs might necessitate some minor tweaking of gateway depending on how it's done, but buffing gateway units means warpgate timings might be too strong. Toss design really has some problems the more I think about it -.-
awesome post! I am glad people are talking about design instead of just talking stats. This would make for a way more interesting game dynamic that offers more back and forth action vs 8 lasers kill a whole army gg
A siege unit is a unit with range 7+ as dictated by the range of static defenses. The disadvantages of a siege unit can be many things. Mobility is the most common weakness.
On October 19 2012 09:59 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: A siege unit is a unit with range 7+ as dictated by the range of static defenses. The disadvantages of a siege unit can be many things. Mobility is the most common weakness.
Mobility and HP are common weaknesses of siege units.
On October 19 2012 09:56 Zergrusher wrote: Actaully I am not clueless.
Answer me these questions.
Whats a siege unit?
what are the advantages and disadvantages of a siege unit?
Fine, I'll give you the answer you're obviously looking for. Siege units are generally slow, do a lot of damage, and have a large range.
Yes the colossus is faster than your average siege unit but, on the flip side, it is susceptible to both ground and air attacks unlike every other siege unit. So basically, yes the colossus is more mobile, but can be attacked by ANY unit in the game, which is a feature not shared by any other unit in SC2. You want to nerf the shields of the colossus? Fine. HOWEVER, you need to give something in return. Who knows, maybe nerfing colossi a bit and buffing something else may make the game more interesting/balanced as a whole.
On October 19 2012 09:59 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: A siege unit is a unit with range 7+ as dictated by the range of static defenses. The disadvantages of a siege unit can be many things. Mobility is the most common weakness.
This leads directly to why the shield reduction idea misses the point. Colossus' main weakness is that it can be hit by AA. Being able to pull micro and recharge shields is a completely minor point in a game determined by production cycles on the 30 second scale (how long it takes to recharge shields).
OP, your idea is similar to the one I've always favored which is a charge-up time on a slower but more powerful colossus attack. This builds anticipation and allows a lot more micro. Yay. ^^
You should change your attack rate number though. That's the delay between attacks, so the number should go up, not down.
If you haven't implemented your changes yet, I'm not sure what good it does to advertise the map. I would try to talk to people at sc2mapster.com if you are having trouble making it work. The slow sweeping beam is a great idea but anything "dodgeable" in the sc2 engine is a huge pain to implement -- I'm not even sure how you would do that without a ton of special data design from scratch. The other changes would be relatively simple.
On October 19 2012 09:56 Zergrusher wrote: Actaully I am not clueless.
Answer me these questions.
Whats a siege unit?
what are the advantages and disadvantages of a siege unit?
Fine, I'll give you the answer you're obviously looking for. Siege units are generally slow, do a lot of damage, and have a large range.
Yes the colossus is faster than your average siege unit but, on the flip side, it is susceptible to both ground and air attacks unlike every other siege unit. So basically, yes the colossus is more mobile, but can be attacked by ANY unit in the game, which is a feature not shared by any other unit in SC2. You want to nerf the shields of the colossus? Fine. HOWEVER, you need to give something in return. Who knows, maybe nerfing colossi a bit and buffing something else may make the game more interesting/balanced as a whole.
how much HP did the reaver from BW have again?
and shure the collosi can be hit by anything in the game, but if you cocnider it the only weakness of the unit, then theres something wrong.
the OP actaully has a good idea, I am just suggestion that the collosi be made more of a siege unit instead of the main DPS/damage of the protoss army.
and if you think about it... the collosi leads to broodlords in ZVP and rarely ever carriers in PVT and PVZ
On October 19 2012 09:56 Zergrusher wrote: Actaully I am not clueless.
Answer me these questions.
Whats a siege unit?
what are the advantages and disadvantages of a siege unit?
Fine, I'll give you the answer you're obviously looking for. Siege units are generally slow, do a lot of damage, and have a large range.
Yes the colossus is faster than your average siege unit but, on the flip side, it is susceptible to both ground and air attacks unlike every other siege unit. So basically, yes the colossus is more mobile, but can be attacked by ANY unit in the game, which is a feature not shared by any other unit in SC2. You want to nerf the shields of the colossus? Fine. HOWEVER, you need to give something in return. Who knows, maybe nerfing colossi a bit and buffing something else may make the game more interesting/balanced as a whole.
how much HP did the reaver from BW have again?
and shure the collosi can be hit by anything in the game, but if you cocnider it the only weakness of the unit, then theres something wrong.
the OP actaully has a good idea, I am just suggestion that the collosi be made more of a siege unit instead of the main DPS/damage of the protoss army.
and if you think about it... the collosi leads to broodlords in ZVP and rarely ever carriers in PVT and PVZ
Like I said, I'm fine with nerfs/changes to colossi if theres changes elsewhere as well. As for them leading to BL in PvZ, zerg going to make BL regardless because BL/fester/corrupter is their strongest army. Let's not talk about carriers, they're just bad in 99% of situations.
Fantastic idea imo, adding more micro / potential skill is always a good thing, and this is a relatively small change that could be hugely beneficial to the game.
I really like the idea of shot cool up times on heavy attacks. it would actually make the collousus have to be immobile for 1 second to fire. i suggested something similar for the thor in your terran thread.
for a 3 second attack frame i would suggest slightly increasing the width of the line AoE. due to it being some what dodge-able (within the 1 second time frame) you attack damage numbers are perfect as a 3 attack upgrade colossus would 1 shot marines no matter what, giving that sense of anticipation from an e sports point of view that you were mentioning.
On October 19 2012 09:56 Zergrusher wrote: Actaully I am not clueless.
Answer me these questions.
Whats a siege unit?
what are the advantages and disadvantages of a siege unit?
Fine, I'll give you the answer you're obviously looking for. Siege units are generally slow, do a lot of damage, and have a large range.
Yes the colossus is faster than your average siege unit but, on the flip side, it is susceptible to both ground and air attacks unlike every other siege unit. So basically, yes the colossus is more mobile, but can be attacked by ANY unit in the game, which is a feature not shared by any other unit in SC2. You want to nerf the shields of the colossus? Fine. HOWEVER, you need to give something in return. Who knows, maybe nerfing colossi a bit and buffing something else may make the game more interesting/balanced as a whole.
how much HP did the reaver from BW have again?
and shure the collosi can be hit by anything in the game, but if you cocnider it the only weakness of the unit, then theres something wrong.
the OP actaully has a good idea, I am just suggestion that the collosi be made more of a siege unit instead of the main DPS/damage of the protoss army.
and if you think about it... the collosi leads to broodlords in ZVP and rarely ever carriers in PVT and PVZ
Like I said, I'm fine with nerfs/changes to colossi if theres changes elsewhere as well. As for them leading to BL in PvZ, zerg going to make BL regardless because BL/fester/corrupter is their strongest army. Let's not talk about carriers, they're just bad in 99% of situations.
Collosi make zerg get corruptors Collosi make terran get vikings
Corruptors can kill carriers and make into broodlords Vikings can easily kill carriers.
Infestor/BL/Corruptor
is only STRONG , because of INFESTORS FUNGUL GROWTHS ROOTING.
In order to fix zerg you must make fungul a slowing spell first.....
but anyways The collosi should be kindof like the lurker so that you can dodge its lasers.
so why not a slower attack animation and a splash that doesn't completely destroy concaves?
On October 19 2012 07:20 rollAdice wrote: That is all nice and sweet to be able to dodge colossus attacks but the best counter to colossus are still vikings and corruptors and that hurts the variety of the protoss army
True, but this will make your ground army actually ABLE to combat colossus with good micro, currently it is next to impossible to even ENGAGE the colossus at all, this should help fix that
On October 19 2012 07:20 rollAdice wrote: That is all nice and sweet to be able to dodge colossus attacks but the best counter to colossus are still vikings and corruptors and that hurts the variety of the protoss army
True, but this will make your ground army actually ABLE to combat colossus with good micro, currently it is next to impossible to even ENGAGE the colossus at all, this should help fix that
Forcefield cast range is 9, that doesn't help the deathball it just makes it scarier....
but I agree, Protoss deathballs are really hard to engage.
I was reading the wall of text and going okkkkk, then I came to the proposed change and it was actually quite good. Perhaps you could bold it so that we can come to the "oh nice" part faster? The lore part is nice to read and all but a tad long.
On October 19 2012 07:20 rollAdice wrote: That is all nice and sweet to be able to dodge colossus attacks but the best counter to colossus are still vikings and corruptors and that hurts the variety of the protoss army
True, but this will make your ground army actually ABLE to combat colossus with good micro, currently it is next to impossible to even ENGAGE the colossus at all, this should help fix that
That doesn't fix it, it just makes colossus weaker so it can't do its job while vikings/corruptors are pounding it. It is a nice idea however additional changes will be needed to fix the colossus and inherent problems of the protoss race. Two being the inability to transition to air-units and the over-reliance on sentries/colossi.
Right now i think a way to fix that would be to make the colossus stationary in order to be able to attack but at the same time not attackable by anti-air units while when mobile it shouldn't be able to attack but is then vulnerable to anti-air units.
I really liked OP's post. As i read it I was essentially imagining what he was saying before I read it. That is the mark of a good post. I like Charge up time SO much. The only thing I would like is a change of the AOE geometry. The horizontal line promotes clustering of colossus. I would like all the suggested changes of the OP but combined with a geometry change of the AOE. I suggest an AOE the shape of a triangle. The unit they are told to attack is the apex of the triangle, closest to the colossus. Opponents unit at base of the \ / \ / ^
O ^Colossus
The proposed geometry would promote colossus spreading. If the protoss has decent colossus spread (IE making a large concave with their colossus) they can concentratedly splash units within shared geometry. If the colossus are touching their geometries only overlap on one unit at the front and concentrate at the back, however In optimal engagements where there is good unit spread for the opposing race, the colossus splash will be minimized, especially if the units are minimized to a one unit thick arc/row. This creates a lack of dependance on high numbers of colossus as their splashes wouldn't compile well unless spread out, which increases their vulnerability. With proper colossus movement and position, their higher damage + delay/chargeup (as proposed by OP), the colossus in the hands of a good player would be the powerful machines of death they were conceptualized as(but not as boring as their current renditions).
On October 19 2012 06:35 Zergrusher wrote: OR.................
Decrease the shields from 150 to 100
that simple change is perfect, balanced, and would allow room for more metagame development, and make the collosi require micro.
no, because colossi now dies too quicky with vikings/tanks/corruptors and almost unkillable without counter. And this is bad, its becomes minigame: do you have enought corruptors to kill colossi before they kill whole your army?
Oh my. Making the colossus laser on a time delay, but way more powerful... This is actually brilliant.
Should definitely add a feature to allow the colossus to attack ground as well. This would allow a player to manually lead the colossus' shots to hit moving targets.
I think a few people haven't read the OP, it is not a balance issue, it's a design issue. Anyway, its a siege unit that has one counter for zerg and terran, making a certain amount of corrupters and vikings. scout for when he makes colossus, and then throw down a spire. it is pretty much that simple. It offers no creativity, no positional play, and hardly any micro opportunities other than A move. does this design really belong in a competitive RTS? the colossus is not well designed and needs to be taken out of the game or redone from top down. I do like the vertical attack design, since this would at least let having a concave matter, but it is still only half the problem.
also, the problem isn't just the colossus. i do not think that the colossus, infester, and brood lord should be in the game with their current design.
On October 19 2012 07:30 Fungal Growth wrote: In most RTS games ranged units are NOT mobile...and for good reason. Mobile ranged units = unstoppable deathballs that need equally ridiculous counters.
What about Terran Bio? probably the most mobile force in the game?
That's why I like the OP, pinning T's Bio with forcefields to roast them with colossi's slow but powerful death rays does make for more exciting play. Same way with stalkers successfully blinking into a siege line.
I have one small suggestion. I like what you propose, but how about this, you make it like aiming actually aims rather than straight-up AoE? It would mark the units it was going to shoot and 1 sec later start shooting a laser to each unit. If you don't move them, the damage is done. If you do, then no damage is done. Kinda like a mini laser-like nuclear missile. And make it like it can target as many units as available in a certain line (like the one currently available). That way, collosus drops on workers would actually be useful.
Another possibility would be like only giving it range 9 if you root it, otherwise it only has range 6. I feel the same way as many, but wouldn't like to see the collo go away (nor think it's at all feasible).
Cheers
Edit: There's only one thing I don't like about the delay though, the fact that if you enter in range of another siege unit you pay the price by receiving damage, in this case there wouldn't be a price since if you see the aiming going on, you just go back. Kinda like poking but without the price in hitpoints.
On October 19 2012 07:20 rollAdice wrote: That is all nice and sweet to be able to dodge colossus attacks but the best counter to colossus are still vikings and corruptors and that hurts the variety of the protoss army
I agree. I think the colossus should be a little slower and have a collision radius too. Along with the attack delay that is somewhat dodge-able, it would be sufficiently nerfed/counter-able by other units. The colossus could then be made immune to anti-air again and we could all be a little happier too.
I really like the idea of having the attack delay. Imagine some dreadful sound coming out of the colossus along with the a some visual queue as it's lasers are about to rain down on the opposing force. This would definitely create more tension and excitement for spectators as well as promote micro. Really great idea!
I really hope they are not afraid of serious redesigns of current WOL units after theyre done tweaking the HOTS units. They seem to have learnt their lesson of what is fun but also spectator friendly. The collosus is probably the highest on the list and is overdue for a massive design change.
Perhaps a slightly less radical change. As it stands, the Colossus has a sweeping beam animation, but deals all its damage in 1 chunk. Why not split the damage across some number of hits during the animation. eg, instead of doing 15 (x2) damage, it deals 5 (x2) damage at the beginning of the animation, 5 (x2) in the middle, and 5 (x2) at the end. This allows dodging the full damage of the attack, much like storm.
I voiced a similar (albeit not as well worked out) idea a few days ago; with the addition of actually giving the colossus mineral costing battery charges for its attack. That way, baiting out bad colossus shots is even more rewarding.
roflmao, love the change as it was removed in early WoL beta, because it was so damn easy to micro colossus, you could melt targetfire everything.
Anyway I agree on copying the lurker mechanic more directly, since the Colossus is basically the Sc2 Lurker. So that the aoe doesn't hit the unit but the ground instead, so if you run a marine towards it it wouldn't get hit. Unless the Protoss pays attention and redirects fire. But targetlines and increased delay are pretty bad Imo, thats something that really reduces the skill needed and adds unnecessary effects. Also would reduce the awesome level of the unit, as in when you pull of a giant hit on the opponent people would only think the other side didn't saw the voidzone. Only thing I would say would work, would be the lasers powering up for 0.1 second on their starting position.
It would also removes this screen bug when you hit a stalker that is blinking, though it would be funny if the beam AoE would be increased 3 times that way.
Well for the damage increase, as funny as it was reading a whole introduction just to see someone mentioning something that got changed asap, because it made the unit to easy. If the Colossus shots wouldn't instant hit and rather deal damage over the beams. (First version of the Colossus hit everything in a line at the same time, I guess they didn't bothered to much with adapting the mechanic to the changed animation) It would decrease the damage output and scale the unit with your opponents skill. The better he is the worse your colossus are unless you micro them. But if you increase the damage and lower the attack speed, you undo everything what the other change did. As the Colossus becomes easier to use. Kiting no issue you won't lose shots. And you just need one money shot instead of 2. At the end you would have reached the opposite of what you wanted.
But the instant hit bothers me since WoL release. But for the damage, they decreased it to the maximum possible. Anything above breaks the game unimportant how hard it is to hit something. Just like the reduced the Siege Tank damage to the minimum possible without making it useless. You also have to take into consideration that the Colossus is supposed to hold of early aggression while you tech. If the opponent could ignore it at this stage of the game it would be a problem. Infestors had this problem at first, where gsl terrans said, if they go for fast Infestor I can pretty much win the game.
The problem with the Colossus isn't its microability or the fact it isn't dodgeable or any of that crap. It's a much more mathematical issue than that. It's got to do with ideal engagements and the Colossus' method of attack.
On October 19 2012 17:19 FeyFey wrote: roflmao, love the change as it was removed in early WoL beta, because it was so damn easy to micro colossus, you could melt targetfire everything.
Anyway I agree on copying the lurker mechanic more directly, since the Colossus is basically the Sc2 Lurker. So that the aoe doesn't hit the unit but the ground instead, so if you run a marine towards it it wouldn't get hit. Unless the Protoss pays attention and redirects fire. But targetlines and increased delay are pretty bad Imo, thats something that really reduces the skill needed and adds unnecessary effects. Also would reduce the awesome level of the unit, as in when you pull of a giant hit on the opponent people would only think the other side didn't saw the voidzone. Only thing I would say would work, would be the lasers powering up for 0.1 second on their starting position.
It would also removes this screen bug when you hit a stalker that is blinking, though it would be funny if the beam AoE would be increased 3 times that way.
Well for the damage increase, as funny as it was reading a whole introduction just to see someone mentioning something that got changed asap, because it made the unit to easy. If the Colossus shots wouldn't instant hit and rather deal damage over the beams. (First version of the Colossus hit everything in a line at the same time, I guess they didn't bothered to much with adapting the mechanic to the changed animation) It would decrease the damage output and scale the unit with your opponents skill. The better he is the worse your colossus are unless you micro them. But if you increase the damage and lower the attack speed, you undo everything what the other change did. As the Colossus becomes easier to use. Kiting no issue you won't lose shots. And you just need one money shot instead of 2. At the end you would have reached the opposite of what you wanted.
But the instant hit bothers me since WoL release. But for the damage, they decreased it to the maximum possible. Anything above breaks the game unimportant how hard it is to hit something. Just like the reduced the Siege Tank damage to the minimum possible without making it useless. You also have to take into consideration that the Colossus is supposed to hold of early aggression while you tech. If the opponent could ignore it at this stage of the game it would be a problem. Infestors had this problem at first, where gsl terrans said, if they go for fast Infestor I can pretty much win the game.
I agree with you.
Aesthetically, the beams should be 20% bigger, criss-cross and be enough to one shot a worker. Such an engine of destruction should cost big at least 400/300.
I think the way to define this mechanic is as a hidden siege mode. i.e. The Colossi has to "siege" to fire, displayed as a glow around its cannons followed by the loud shrill scream of 12,000ºC plasma beams as it cuts across the battle field.
Edit: This results in more spectator friendly game play as "war-of-the-worlds spider thingies fuck shit up", and rewards micro from using FF to trap escaping units.
On October 19 2012 09:59 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: A siege unit is a unit with range 7+ as dictated by the range of static defenses. The disadvantages of a siege unit can be many things. Mobility is the most common weakness.
This leads directly to why the shield reduction idea misses the point. Colossus' main weakness is that it can be hit by AA. Being able to pull micro and recharge shields is a completely minor point in a game determined by production cycles on the 30 second scale (how long it takes to recharge shields).
OP, your idea is similar to the one I've always favored which is a charge-up time on a slower but more powerful colossus attack. This builds anticipation and allows a lot more micro. Yay. ^^
You should change your attack rate number though. That's the delay between attacks, so the number should go up, not down.
If you haven't implemented your changes yet, I'm not sure what good it does to advertise the map. I would try to talk to people at sc2mapster.com if you are having trouble making it work. The slow sweeping beam is a great idea but anything "dodgeable" in the sc2 engine is a huge pain to implement -- I'm not even sure how you would do that without a ton of special data design from scratch. The other changes would be relatively simple.
attacks being dodgeable is a piece of cake to make in the editor, i never understood why this feature isnt used more by units
I agree the colossus is a fundamentally flawed unit which ruins many other units in the game. It is basically a retardedly strong ground unit with few weaknesses except it's dual role as ground and air unit. Because of that the unit is balanced around the fact it can be countered by air and the options for that are balanced around it (viking and corruptor). As a result the viking and corruptor are very strong and push a tremendous amount of cool play / interesting units out of the game. BC's and carriers are useless because vikings/corruptors counter them too easily, simply making them stronger makes them imbalanced (as vikings and corruptors are the only good counters), nerfing vikings/corruptors however makes the colossus too strong. Also the colossus should have been a cool positional unit with it's role as cliff walker, however 1) it's positioning is not that relevant given how it's AoE works and it has no setup time 2) it's counters are flying units anyway. Because colossi are always countered by air anyways P the warp prism is also very unused, any time you have speed prism for example your opponent is already making AA..
To sum it up two things I think restrict a lot of cool gameplay in SC2: - most counters to air are air units themselves - the colossus needs to strong for protoss hence the air counters also need to be really strong
These two combined push out almost any interesting air play in matchups involving protoss. Not only carriers / other air fleets are useless, tactical air play like dropping is rarely used as well. The colossus itself is very dull too because it does not have cool positioning (the counters can always reach it as they fly..) and it has no setup time or cool attack (like the reaver had). The impact of the colossus reaches even further as BC's are useless in any matchup for example just because the viking is balanced around the colossus.
I would have loved to see some pivotal changes in HoTS regarding airplay and how it is countered. Especially it would be cool if one race would have to rely on ground units to counter air instead of air units itself, ONLY then can something as cool as carriers vs goliaths etc come back. For example give terran a mech unit like the goliath and nerf the viking or nerf the corruptor and let zerg be able to deal with air in other ways (hydra/roach + viper for example). That way capital ships could be used again as their ability to fly would actually matter (abuse terrain against ground based counters) plus colossi would be more interesting to use because their positioning would actually matter. Rebalancing colossus/viking/corruptor would finally allow some more diversity in gameplay based on maps as well, some maps would be good for colossi (lots of cliffs to walk over), some would just be for HT (open grounds) while others would be good for air (open space etc.). Now capital airships are just not viable and HT/colossi are pretty much interchangeable as colossi don't use their cliffwalking ability much anyways...
If anything changing the viking/corruptor probably would do more than changing the colossus stats. The colossus can't be changed much by simply stats tweaking I think, it's role needs to be critically changed by either changing itself or the units that counter it..
On October 19 2012 07:53 Inquisitor1323 wrote: It should be more fragile... it takes so long to kill them that they are almost guaranteed to pay for themselves in damage dealt. Decreasing the shield seems like the best idea.
Colossi die REALLY fast to Vikings and Corruptors past the mid-game. If you made Colossi any weaker you would also have to nerf marauders so that Toss could survive, they barely can now .
Colossi are not even a little bit overpowered (in PvT building too many colossi is pretty much the same as worker rushing in terms of effectiveness, PvZ it's less bad, but you still can't build too many), but the OP is right in that a redesign would be good. What I'd like to see (but probably won't happen):
Increased damage but reduced attack rate: YES, this is a fantastic idea. Because there would be more front-loaded damage you would need to reduce overall DPS some (but not too much). This would also make prism+colossi WAY more viable.
Reduce the speed of the Colossi, this would encourage prism+colossi play.
Reduce range to 8: This would make the Colossi require more attention and also allow the following changes:
Remove the Viking and Corruptor. Bring back the Goliath, allowing it to use it's long-range anti-air attack vs the Colossi.
For Zerg, make broodlords morph from mutalisks. This would make mutas easier to transition from, making them a better option vs turtling Colossi Toss (although they are already amazing in this role, you pretty much have to just keep going mutas as it's hard to be able to afford Corruptors and then broods).
With no corruptors and vikings, prism + colossi play would be much stronger, but Colossi without the prism would be next to useless, offensively (still strong defensively, which is GOOD).
This would also indirectly buff carriers, which is nice .
Zerg may need another anti-air unit to replace the corruptor, but I'd suggest it should be morphed from the muta (devourer style) and be MUCH less of a hard-counter to Carriers and Colossi. They won't be needed to defend broods from vikings either as Terran will be shooting broods with goliaths, which would be amazing at taking down broodlords .
You're welcome DB, I just fucking solved Starcraft for ya (as long as you also remove the mothership and move the mothership core abilities to the nexus).
Here's an idea: Why not make it so that the collossus can be toggle crouched to avoid air attacks. When crouched, it deals more splash damage and has a smaller range. When standing, it deals less splash damage but has more range. It takes 1 second to stand up/crouch down.
i already suggested this in another thread, but making the colossus attack a permanent aoe effect that you have to manually set up on a given area like a spell would be cool
you could actually use it tactically or to zone out the battlefield
this would make having more colossi very micro intense, also the aoe should damage friendly units as well, so you have to be careful setting it up especially with zealots
of course this would make it very similar to storm but right now its already very similar to that so i dont really see a problem
On October 19 2012 22:08 summerloud wrote: i already suggested this in another thread, but making the colossus attack a permanent aoe effect that you have to manually set up on a given area like a spell would be cool
you could actually use it tactically or to zone out the battlefield
this would make having more colossi very micro intense, also the aoe should damage friendly units as well, so you have to be careful setting it up especially with zealots
of course this would make it very similar to storm but right now its already very similar to that so i dont really see a problem
Sounds complicated. If I could summarize the races into one word it would be: 1. Powerful 2. Adaptable 3. Unspeakable
What you describe sounds more Terran than Protoss death rays.
On October 19 2012 22:08 summerloud wrote: i already suggested this in another thread, but making the colossus attack a permanent aoe effect that you have to manually set up on a given area like a spell would be cool
you could actually use it tactically or to zone out the battlefield
this would make having more colossi very micro intense, also the aoe should damage friendly units as well, so you have to be careful setting it up especially with zealots
of course this would make it very similar to storm but right now its already very similar to that so i dont really see a problem
Sounds complicated. If I could summarize the races into one word it would be: 1. Powerful 2. Adaptable 3. Unspeakable
What you describe sounds more Terran than Protoss death rays.
im not even entirely sure which adjective is supposed to apply to which race
all of the BW paradigms flew out of the windows with WoL anyways. protoss are now fragile space elves instead of powerful advanced aliens. terran are a fearsome empire instead of ragtag survivalists, zerg are still zerg i guess, but with less swarmy feel and actually the most powerful units in many cases
the big hp/damage/cost differences arent there any more. i really disliked this aspect of WoL at the start but then i grew to like the new race characteristics
"There is a universally loved unit from BW that “hardcountered” many of the units that the Colossus does, but its design gave it opponents the ability to fight and kill the unit with good micro, positioning, and map awareness: the Lurker. It had a vertical linear aoe attack that devastated low hp units. This unit was amazing because you could micro your marines to DODGE the attacks. The anticipation of a column of marines approaching a den of lurkers thrilled, the drama that unfolded when a scan was dropped and the marines moved forward. Imagine if this mechanic were reintroduced into SC2, where units are so much more mobile. Imagine it with the Colossus. This could produce a dynamic with Robo based play that we currently only see in TvZ with Banelings vs Marines."
It was great that microed marines could deal with lurkers. It was not great that lurkers had no good way to micro back.
And technically, you can micro to a degree against colossus line attacks. Obviously it's quite hard in big battles. Maybe in 3 more years time, pros will be microing against it well enough using burrow movement or splitting.
Either way, more micro options on both sides is preferred. But colossi are so clunky yet powerful in numbers, Blizz doesn't give them good stutter step or movement speed. And since a single colossus hits very softly, there is little opportunity to reaver shuttle micro them. Hence, not much micro.
I think Blizzard figured you'd need to do more with other units... sentries, blink, storm, etc. so they left it alone.
I wouldn't mind seeing some tweak to make colossus attacks more damaging when microed and less damaging when a-moved. That's always a good thing in my book.
I would like to see the Collossus divided by 2: Half the height, halft the cost, half the supply, half the damage, half the range... So to reduce their effectiveness in the protoss deathball and to increase their use as a raiding unit, which it looks it was designed to be..
Colossi can already be microed against, and colossus micro is incredibly important, particularly in low-food situations. The colossus is pretty far down my list of units that need to be changed for HOTS. It counters marines a little too hard, and marines counter gateway units too hard.
Colossi aren't even particularly good in PvZ where they get owned by roaches before Protoss gets near max supply, and then by the time P maxes out, Z is nearly on broodlords against which colossi are just broodling vacuums. In PvZ, colossi have about a 60 second window where they kill spine crawlers and give Z a good scare before their broodlords finish morphing.
What I'd like to see is a "realistic" Colossus. It's a weapon that literally incinerates everything such that it had to be locked away. One "realistic" (within the SC universe) Colossus alone would probably melt entire armies and have tons of lasers. Of course, that would be imba haha.
On October 23 2012 01:02 kcdc wrote: Colossi can already be microed against, and colossus micro is incredibly important, particularly in low-food situations. The colossus is pretty far down my list of units that need to be changed for HOTS. It counters marines a little too hard, and marines counter gateway units too hard.
Colossi aren't even particularly good in PvZ where they get owned by roaches before Protoss gets near max supply, and then by the time P maxes out, Z is nearly on broodlords against which colossi are just broodling vacuums. In PvZ, colossi have about a 60 second window where they kill spine crawlers and give Z a good scare before their broodlords finish morphing.
Same thoughts, same experiences.
OP: They're not really that strong and appear to be a lot stronger than they really are; positional play and multi-pronged attacks are super effective against them either directly or indirectly.
Collosi are already easily killed by few units. If they just made collosi less mobile so it would be a defensive unit and buffed some gateway units than that would be i feel the best solution
On October 23 2012 03:11 raf3776 wrote: Collosi are already easily killed by few units. If they just made collosi less mobile so it would be a defensive unit and buffed some gateway units than that would be i feel the best solution
The bomb idea is actually well implemented, even in such a rough state. Obviously if Blizzard were to adopt the idea they would put some professional graphical labor into the unit.
Giving the colossus a time delay before impact, and multiple small radial splash damage projectiles is actually quite a clever solution, and is worth trying. The intent is to make the protoss need to micro their colossus, and to provoke counter micro from the other player. Furthermore, multiple radial splash damage blasts is more affected by weapon and armor upgrades. The time delay before impact means multiple colossi working together will be less efficient unless microed effectively. Overall, a clever idea.
In my opinion the right way to change the attack would be an AOE attack like the tank but relative to the colossus damage right now. So it should deliver its damage in a radius rather than doing line damage maybe even with the ability to attack ground.
Right now an attack moved colossus will almost always do its maximum damage against an opposing army because it does line damage and armies want to engage in a concave so they always gonna be in a line. On the other hand this is what makes collosus really bad at harassing worker lines because the line damage is almost always very ineffective.
With the change I proposed above no longer will an a-moved colossus always do maximum damage because he might not use the full potential of his aoe if not aimed correctly. This forces the collosus to be microed to maximize its damage but it also creates the opportunity to increase the effectiveness of this unit in the hands of a good player by forcefielding smartly or using terrain and positioning in his favor. But also the opponent can use this change to his advantage by engaging with a good split he can minimize the initial damage and by drawing colossus fire with single units he can even use this mechanic to his own advantage. This also would make the Colossus a much better unit to harass worker lines because you could aim the attack at clumps of workers.
I have been working on similar changes so I will post what I have found Hope it helps
Colossus 350 minerals 250 gas 8 supply 1.6 movement 2 armor 300 life 200 shields
Weapon R 7 2.8 cooldown damage 30x2
The thermal lance upgrade now provides +2 range and there is a second one for another +2 both at the cost of 300/300
The thermal lance on mine has a delay(Charge) of .3 a larger aoe that travels about a third of the speed and sits at the edges for about .5 this gives time to react minimize damage and forces the colossus away from the main army. Additionally the colossus target area remains unchanged unless the player micros the colossus(The target before the charge remains the target even if the unit dies or moves but the target can be changed with micro).
The changes so far have made many effective counter plays and made working with your colossus as a out of army unit very comfortable(If risky). With the slow colossus it also forces the protoss to have to face a grueling death march across the map baby sitting the colossus. Also by forcing higher supply and costs a single colossus becomes a big deal(More then before for the protoss) and managing positions between stalkers or tempest to support your colossus more important then ever.
(This was kind of a rushed post hopefully it was clear) Feedback is Appreciated! :D
Edit: Before anyone comments numbers can be changed.
My concept is about making the colossus an objective and a invaluable asset. If you increase over all costs it is an in-direct nerf but my premise is increased range provides less need to get the further range upgrades and lessens the cost of tech-switching out. While also providing an excellent ranged aoe that can be mitigated or enhanced through micro. While remaining effective(but not OP without either).
I think a dodgeable Colossus beam would be great design.
I also think I'd have no real way to repel terran bio if they could micro away the damage of the Colossus.
Your changes have some of the same problems forcefields have. I'm still a-moving my colossus. If he dodges well, I've invested 300/200 per Colossus + 200/200 for range for effectively very little damage. If it can deal no damage, we must assume that (at the highest level of skill) it will do no damage.
Perhaps you could have the initial line (the part that signals what should dodge) initially do 20 damage, and have secondary damage (after 1/3 of a second) that deals the additional 20 damage.
Alternatively, giving me the ability to target where my Colossus shoots, (so I can try to "lead him into the shot") would be even better design. Thoughts?
Name Cost HP Damage DPS Range Movement Colossus 300/200/6 150/200 15x2 (AOE) 18.2 6+3 2.25
-Change damage from 15x2 to 20x2 (+5x2 vs Light) -Reduce attack speed to 3 from 1.65 -The Colossus now shows a targeting line where it will fire, charges its attack for 1/3rd of a second, then fires its twin lances. These lances are slower than their current counterparts and, most importantly, able to be dodged.
So you're reducing colossus DPS from 18.2 to 13.33 (16.67 vs light) AND with a delay AND with more overkill.
Originally I was for something like this because it's a more clear visual but now I'm not so sure: the thermal lances are the main focal point of the unit and it would be a shame to take them away.
One suggestion might be an attack like the hunters in Half life 2, who shoot these dart-like things that explode after a few seconds. That might be an interesting mechanic for the colossus, which would be visually clear and allow counter-micro.
Failing that, the thermal lances need to be slower, as the OP suggests. Remember the colossus reveal from WoL alpha?
No, im not suggesting bringing it back, but look how the beams converge on a single target. If the Colossus started to one side and moved both its beams slowly together from right to left or left to right, it might allow for plenty of time for counter micro.
I agree that increasing damage and slowing attack rate would be a good call, but it should also have enough damage to kill an SCV, meaning at least 23x2 (which means that marines and SCVs with +1 armor would survive the attack, as well as combat shields)
One worry that has always remained about the beams though is that they can obscure the battlefield.
On October 23 2012 03:11 raf3776 wrote: Collosi are already easily killed by few units. If they just made collosi less mobile so it would be a defensive unit and buffed some gateway units than that would be i feel the best solution
It already is a less mobile unit
Compared to what? They have the speed of tanks, immortals and sentries. And a lot of other stuff. 2.25 is average speed, it´s "siege unit" slow. If you look around all other siege units are less mobile.
Name Cost HP Damage DPS Range Movement Colossus 300/200/6 150/200 15x2 (AOE) 18.2 6+3 2.25
-Change damage from 15x2 to 20x2 (+5x2 vs Light) -Reduce attack speed to 3 from 1.65 -The Colossus now shows a targeting line where it will fire, charges its attack for 1/3rd of a second, then fires its twin lances. These lances are slower than their current counterparts and, most importantly, able to be dodged.
So you're reducing colossus DPS from 18.2 to 13.33 (16.67 vs light) AND with a delay AND with more overkill.
Fine.
What do you give Protoss in return?
edit: fixed maths
It one-shots marines with AoE from range 9. It would essentially make the colossus an anti-light unit, though, 13.3 dps against roaches and stalkers is a huge nerf.
I would love that attack style for the colossus so much. It looks so much more intimidating than the standard laser beams, and would more importantly be micro friendly.
Changing the Colossus in this way should have been done a long time ago.
The problem in this game is the tier 3 units imo. People rather sit on 3 base and turtle up to a T3 deathball than move out, skirmish, fight for expansions, etc.
Name Cost HP Damage DPS Range Movement Colossus 300/200/6 150/200 15x2 (AOE) 18.2 6+3 2.25
-Change damage from 15x2 to 20x2 (+5x2 vs Light) -Reduce attack speed to 3 from 1.65 -The Colossus now shows a targeting line where it will fire, charges its attack for 1/3rd of a second, then fires its twin lances. These lances are slower than their current counterparts and, most importantly, able to be dodged.
So you're reducing colossus DPS from 18.2 to 13.33 (16.67 vs light) AND with a delay AND with more overkill.
Fine.
What do you give Protoss in return?
edit: fixed maths
An Immortal at Cybercore for starters. Currently Toss as a ton of powerful aoe options, we have been testing a Void Ray remake that targets an area rather than a unit; after the charge up delay, it channels its beam to create a large aoe (2.5) damage over time effect that does extra damage to armored targets. It initially has range 5 which makes it more of a defensive unit, allowing Stargate builds to have some ground presence in the event of counter attacks, provided you positioned your VRs correctly. Fleet Beacon gives the Void Ray a +2 range upgrade on the ability, allowing Protoss very powerful area control at the cost of an army that can either be strong at zoning or mobile, but both at the same time. Carriers currently take 90 seconds to build, repair Interceptors and have a longer leash range, as well as starting withe the benefits of the Gravaton Catapult upgrade. There are many other things that we will get into later, but needless to say, Protoss has received a good deal of attention.
The reason the Colossus has less DPS is because it currently does everything pretty well. It is mobile, it has siege range, it has aoe, it does solid damage. This all contributes to Colossus-based armies to steamroll through enemy defenses, and encourages death ball play. Having less dps makes fights longer, having more damage gives it the ability to kill swaths of units, or pick off that high priority target if you are in position. The charge up time and dodgable attack gives the opponent the opportunity to mitigate some of the damage, and makes for a more exciting viewer experience. (Think reaver scarabs.)
If I recall correctly, SC2 has a 0.4 second movement delay. This would change almost nothing, except for the fact that it can now miss against fast units - which are basically the units it was designed to counter.
why not just change the colossus attack from horizontal to vertical? then it kinda telegraphs the attack and it makes it less powerful in general. it would have the added bonus off making the protoss army better at retreating too, since units chasing the protoss army would kind up for terrible damage.
On November 28 2012 08:41 Xanbatou wrote: why not just change the colossus attack from horizontal to vertical? then it kinda telegraphs the attack and it makes it less powerful in general. it would have the added bonus off making the protoss army better at retreating too, since units chasing the protoss army would kind up for terrible damage.
this would make impossible to hold 10 minute bio-medivac push while going for colossi, as with low number of units this type of attack is kind of useless, hitting 1 or 2 unit if lucky.
How about changing the Thermal lance from a horizontal line to a crescent (with the 2 ends pointing towards the enemy)? This change should discourage deathballs (as the crescent would fit the curve of the "ball" shape) while the enemy benefits from good positioning (a concave would reduce some of the AoE damage of the collosi).
Also, I think huge burst damage and lower DPS would be good on the collosus.
I would like some constructive criticism on this idea and how it can be improved, and not bullcrap about how OP this is and how this would make the collosus more imba and bla bla bla... Cause I know it might be.
On November 28 2012 07:30 Monochromatic wrote: 1/3rd second isn't much at all.
If I recall correctly, SC2 has a 0.4 second movement delay. This would change almost nothing, except for the fact that it can now miss against fast units - which are basically the units it was designed to counter.
that is why they are creating a map to test it out. What you are doing is just random thero crafting and you actually dont know if it will have a effect or not. I belive thats one of the main point of the project is to have a lay out to test changes and se how they will work out instead of theory crafting. You might be right you might be wrong but atleast we will now it now since they will offically test it out. If it turns out as u say it will then they just change the delay.
This is for everyone saying that some of there changes might not work. We will know if it works or not when we can try the map out untill then its better to give suggestion on what u want to have in the game.
How about this: Make the thermal lance upgrade an ability.
Once thermal lance upgrade is done, Colossi will have an ability "Charge Thermal Lance".
1. The colossus will become immobile and unable to attack for 2.5 seconds while charging the thermal lance. 2. After charging, the colossus will have increased range (same as current thermal lance upgrade) and thermal lance damage (+5 damage?) for 3 attacks. 3. After the colossi have used up the 3 attacks, it will revert to normal range and normal damage until the ability is used again.
Of course numbers are tweakable.
For every N attacks, the colossi will have burst range and damage so there would be more strategic/deliberate control. Immobility during charging adds a positional element. Bad control can increase overkill, good control can mitigate it.
1. Collosus is unattackable by air 2. Is slower (than the rest of the deathball) 3. Has a delayed damage and vertical attack path (lasers have to charge for a bit but hit original location).
Some nerfs and buffs all in one. Because the collosus is countered by air, it seems terran and zerg have to have stronger air than protoss (longer range vikings/ tougher corruptors). Furthermore this makes it very unsafe for protoss to switch to stargate T_T. And last but not least makes for terribly ugly collossi wars in WOL PvP because protoss air sucks vs collossi based balls. If it is slower and cannot be sniped by air it could be used as the positional unit that protoss needs. It would then hopefully be less useful in the deathball too because they cannot easily move with the rest of the army and defend multiple locations.
On November 29 2012 13:22 winsonsonho wrote: How about:
1. Collosus is unattackable by air 2. Is slower (than the rest of the deathball) 3. Has a delayed damage and vertical attack path (lasers have to charge for a bit but hit original location).
Some nerfs and buffs all in one. Because the collosus is countered by air, it seems terran and zerg have to have stronger air than protoss (longer range vikings/ tougher corruptors). Furthermore this makes it very unsafe for protoss to switch to stargate T_T. And last but not least makes for terribly ugly collossi wars in WOL PvP because protoss air sucks vs collossi based balls. If it is slower and cannot be sniped by air it could be used as the positional unit that protoss needs. It would then hopefully be less useful in the deathball too because they cannot easily move with the rest of the army and defend multiple locations.
Sounds like a siege tank... I like it in its current form, if any tweak, I would prefer army units would prioritize colossi over other targets. Marauders SHOULD NOT be shooting at stalkers or immortals when there's a 12 storey dooms day machine in front of them!
With all the talk about redesigning old units, I can hardly believe Colossus aren't on the chopping block.
It's been proven and proven again that the way opponents deal with colossus isn't interesting in any way - it is
TvP: Build vikings ZvP: Build corrupters PvP: Build more Colossus
Now for HOTS Colossus will likely be driven out of PvP which was a design goal of Blizzard's, but I have to say...if you're trying to make a unit sort of irrelevant in a match-up, doesn't it mean a redesign is likely needed?
This is a great video that funny enough was conceived at a talk by Riot that explains that any ability or mechanic should be interesting not just for the person using the ability/mechanic, but for the person/opponent playing against it.
On November 29 2012 13:22 winsonsonho wrote: How about:
1. Collosus is unattackable by air 2. Is slower (than the rest of the deathball) 3. Has a delayed damage and vertical attack path (lasers have to charge for a bit but hit original location).
Some nerfs and buffs all in one. Because the collosus is countered by air, it seems terran and zerg have to have stronger air than protoss (longer range vikings/ tougher corruptors). Furthermore this makes it very unsafe for protoss to switch to stargate T_T. And last but not least makes for terribly ugly collossi wars in WOL PvP because protoss air sucks vs collossi based balls. If it is slower and cannot be sniped by air it could be used as the positional unit that protoss needs. It would then hopefully be less useful in the deathball too because they cannot easily move with the rest of the army and defend multiple locations.
Sounds like a siege tank... I like it in its current form, if any tweak, I would prefer army units would prioritize colossi over other targets. Marauders SHOULD NOT be shooting at stalkers or immortals when there's a 12 storey dooms day machine in front of them!
Nope, sige tanks are immobile while in AOE damage mode.
This can be charged out of battle and used when in battle.
All this talk about colossus just makes me miss the Reaver more.
The reaver was a great unit and very anti death ball (warp prism + reaver).
Also reaver wasn't that "random". Scarabs only get stuck if its path gets blocked by something. If you target correctly, you can reduce the likeliness of scarabs getting stuck. Also doing shuttle + reaver micro well really benefited the player (when a player microed reaver and shuttle well, you saw it, it's not like just because there is random factor that it reaver micro was pointless).
Finally, there is inherited randomness in SC2 - blind build order counters, getting caught out of position due to lack of information, etc.
The only true way to get rid of that huge randomness (emphasize huge), is for both players to have vision of each other from the start (like chess).
Otherwise, the game will always have some form of randomness. (Plus again, Scarabs weren't that random.
Adding back old units seem to be out of the question but for the health of the game, I wonder if they should add some sort of unit selection thing (like add lots of units into the game, like +10 to each race, and allow each player to pick 15 out of 30-40 units each game. Both players know which units they picked). This would kind of be like that Dota (each team gets 5 heroes, but you can select from a huge pool). This adds a huge layer into the game. It could be a different game mode to test it out. (Though all the work is really just an excuse to get the reaver into the game >.>.)
Reavers could also have hold fire (ghost ability which prevents auto firing) and weapons free, this allows more reaver micro (you can now target directly without reaver auto attacking, allowing more precise scarabs).
Honestly, from a spectator point of view, nothing beats the reaver in terms of micro potential (especially if they were added back in with hold fire and weapons free abilities, which allows manually attacking).
A charged colossus attacks is okay but IMO, it wouldn't be too different than just dodging storms (and dodging storms isn't that exciting in SC2 since it's relatively easy to move out). Even the idea of colossus attacking the ground isn't that interesting. I mean, it just feels too similar to other things in like many other games. It'd feel too similar to nukes, spells with casting times that do AoE (like in Dota), etc.
The colossus charging idea feels too generic (not that it isn't a bad idea, it's just I don't think colossus can be changed to be as interesting as... the reaver!). The reaver did add a lot of fun to the game. IMO, Blizzard should try readding it unless they're still in the "we don't want to add too many units, it would over complicate the game" or "no old units, this is SC2 not BW; go play BW if you want to play BW" mood (which I disagree with). Unlike the lurker (which IMO, I think the Swarm Host is better... the lurker feels too much like other units), and unlike other old units, I feel the reaver doesn't have its counterpart in SC2.
The reaver was really unique. So yeah, I'm not just a BW elitist or a person with nostalgia glasses on, I like the swarm host over the lurker (at least in SC2's environment) but there isn't anything that is better (or even close to) the reaver in SC2.
Edit - Also, the Reaver added micro potential to both players. You have to target fire the unit you'll likely think the scarab will do the most damage and not miss, while the opponent has to dodge the scarab or split their army to minimize the damage. Plus that and shuttle micro too (and opponents attempting to destroy the shuttle).
I like the OP's suggestion much better than changing the shields, or any of the other suggestions I've read, though the numbers may need to be adjusted. Making the lances dodgeable and subject to overkill could make it so that extremely well microed lings, marines, reapers or other units that usually have no chance against collossi based armies without viking support could beat unmicroed deathballs. You would still want to get the vikings/corrupters, but you wouldn't be entirely unable to engage.
I don't have a problem with how the collosus is now--I die more to storm these days, but I like this proposed change. I also liked dodging THWOMPS in Mario.
On November 29 2012 15:06 DrowSwordsman wrote: With all the talk about redesigning old units, I can hardly believe Colossus aren't on the chopping block.
It's been proven and proven again that the way opponents deal with colossus isn't interesting in any way - it is
TvP: Build vikings ZvP: Build corrupters PvP: Build more Colossus
Now for HOTS Colossus will likely be driven out of PvP which was a design goal of Blizzard's, but I have to say...if you're trying to make a unit sort of irrelevant in a match-up, doesn't it mean a redesign is likely needed?
This is a great video that funny enough was conceived at a talk by Riot that explains that any ability or mechanic should be interesting not just for the person using the ability/mechanic, but for the person/opponent playing against it.
Great vid and I completely agree with you. There should be more ways to deal with Colossi..
SC2 is full of 1 unit hard-counters: - immortal >> tank - hellbat >> zealot/ling - corrupter >>> colossus - viking >>> colossus - high templar >> thor - thor >> mutas - infestor >> everything - others
I dislike these obvious and boring counters. Make it a little less straight forward please blizzard.. We can play rock, paper, scissors for free with our hands..
1. Change the AOE path by 90 degrees. Currently Colossus is auto-awesome against units trying to kill it, because they spread themselves to get optimally hit. If the AOE were towards/away from the colossus then flanking becomes more effective and Colossus positoning more important (they're potentially least effective when munged in with the rest of a deathball)
2. Passive ability: Precharge. The titanic power for the colossus lasers is dispensed from vast internal batteries, trickle-charged by the on-board fusion core. This makes the first laser sweep incredibly powerful, but subsequent attacks weaker until the batteries are allowed to recharge again (like a reverse Void Ray). Baiting attacks is now very worthwhile, as is proper micro of Colossus to bring them into combat at the right moment to maximise their effectiveness.
On October 19 2012 06:57 Foxxan wrote: #zergrusher What? I dont understand why.
#To op, (the one that wrote this post), i dont know what op means. I like this change, what i would like alot more is if the delayshot is not linear but a circle instead, NOT BIG circle , but not a dot either.
I would love that change, i dont really know why excactly. What do u think of that? U must have thought about it
Lower the collosi's Shields from 150 down to 100
Siege units are slower and/or have low HP
does it make sense now?
With lower HP, it does 2 things.
1) it makes protoss pay attention to there collosi now, because they are more fragile.
2) the opponent doesn't have to over commit on collosi killers as much, because the collosi will take less damage to kill.
It opens up many strategic options for both sides.
No it doesn't all it changes jack all; all it does is make it so that your opponent need to make slightly fewer corruptors. You still have the same boring dynamics as you do now, except terran/zerg are stronger.
What you mean 'makes you pay attention' what are you gonna do, micro them away from 9 range flying units?
People are trying to fix this the wrong way. Current colossus fits well in the deathball scheme of the game, adding some micro clicks for marines to dodge and colossus to aim won't change things much except maybe make the colossus weaker. If you don't like deathball you need to modify all of sc2 units, and maybe its economy a thing that Blizzard should seriously considered. We don't want to make this game warcraft III but at least some changes should be made to shift it from its extreme deathball play.
I like the idea of having the lances be dodgeable like lurker spines were. The parallels between lurks and collosi are pretty solid, they're both among the most powerful aoe attackers in their respective games with continual line based aoe. The only stronger aoe in sc1 was the reaver, and scarabs were also somewhat avoidable due to needing to travel to the enemy. Point is, collosi Are the only aoe unit in this category with no downside or dodge opportunity to their attack.
Not sure if the answer is a "charge" time in the middle of battle or just making the sweep vertical instead of horizontal... Either way, I really like the idea of at least adding some way for opponents to dodge and micro against collosi.
Edit: having said that, blizzard has recently proven unwilling to make core changes to how a unit actually works. So the best we could hope for is some tweak to make collosi less viable as a unit and shift emphasis to other, more interesting units.
On November 30 2012 01:58 i)awn wrote: People are trying to fix this the wrong way. Current colossus fits well in the deathball scheme of the game, adding some micro clicks for marines to dodge and colossus to aim won't change things much except maybe make the colossus weaker. If you don't like deathball you need to modify all of sc2 units, and maybe its economy a thing that Blizzard should seriously considered. We don't want to make this game warcraft III but at least some changes should be made to shift it from its extreme deathball play.
The economy is something so fundamental to the game that we can't propose changes to that just yet, especially when units could be more fun to watch.
The whole unit is an interesting idea but ruins the game. It makes no sense to switch from colossus to carrier because terran will already have made vikings. It makes no sense to split your army and micro because you need to protect your colossus. The colossus has too much range for a non-projectile AOE auto attack on a mobile unit.
The whole unit just isn't compatible with the game's checks and balances. I say get rid of it, give protoss a more supporting themed unit, and buff gateway units slightly, while making non-warp gate produced units (i.e. gateway zealots over WG zealots) faster to build.
The Colossus is one example of the problem of having big units. They are expensive, and there are few of them. There's just fewer things to do, and fewer ways to split your army over the map, or during production. You can't build half a Colossus. And you can't send half a colossus to defend, and the other half to attack, or micro each half separately.
And worse still, it accomplishes nothing to have bigger units. Strength is relative, and cancels out if both sides are using bigger units. Roaches and Marauders could both be 1 supply, and both sides would be able to field twice as many. Why make them cost 2? Why make tanks 3? Why are immortals 4? Why are thors and ultralisks and colossi a whopping SIX? The only result is there are fewer pieces on the board, and less stuff to do with respect to building and using units.
Back on the Colossus specifically, it's a shuttle and reaver in a single package. That requires no micro to drop and fire, and no time, cost, or micro to produce its projectile. Nevertheless it is even more powerful, especially in a big battle. Rather than being harder to use, but with great gains possible like mech or reavers or other BW units, the Colossus simply acts as the designers programmed it to act, and is strong. Big units are predictable, their properties are more definite than a group of smaller units, and the opportunity to micro to improve their performance is much lessened.
As for solutions? Honestly the Colossus is going to be hard to save while keeping it as a 'colossus' size unit. Creative ideas may work, but fundamentally it is going to be a design-determined, A-move type unit almost no matter what. Could try making it blind- that might help as you would need to get vision for it with another unit- especially relevant for cliffs. Reducing its movement speed significantly might help also, but it will simply be a less effective deathball unit.
The colossus is inadvertently one of the most difficult units to redesign, because we can't change the unit's core mechanics without messing with it's identity. Our last resort to fix the game is to remove a unit, evident by the fact that not a single unit has been removed yet. Our largest change has been, by far, the Void Ray, which has undergone a full redesign. There isn't too much we can do with the colossus right now that doesn't really mess with it's identity or making it a reaver that can be hit by air. Of course, we are always open to suggestions, but on principle we're taking care to tweak numbers first, redesign second, and scrap as a last resort.
On November 30 2012 08:16 Honeybadger wrote:...making non-warp gate produced units (i.e. gateway zealots over WG zealots) faster to build.
On November 30 2012 10:06 topsecret221 wrote: The colossus is inadvertently one of the most difficult units to redesign, because we can't change the unit's core mechanics without messing with it's identity. Our last resort to fix the game is to remove a unit, evident by the fact that not a single unit has been removed yet. Our largest change has been, by far, the Void Ray, which has undergone a full redesign. There isn't too much we can do with the colossus right now that doesn't really mess with it's identity or making it a reaver that can be hit by air. Of course, we are always open to suggestions, but on principle we're taking care to tweak numbers first, redesign second, and scrap as a last resort.
On November 30 2012 08:16 Honeybadger wrote:...making non-warp gate produced units (i.e. gateway zealots over WG zealots) faster to build.
Already taken care of
Not to argue too much but casual tweaking of numbers IMO will not fix Colossus. There is still only one way to deal with them and that is as I said before. Vikings, Corrupters, more Colossus. And vikings and corrupters are already really boring units with little micro potential so I don't see how any casual redesign would really make the colossus work a lot better, it really seems like they'd just be nerfs which doesn't seem to be the issue.
I've reread itwhospeak's redesign changes and I have to sit on how they feel with me, not that my opinion matters. I'm all about giving opponents new ways to deal with Colossus (neural parasite was op imo but man those were kind of fun times), but without seeing the unit in game it seems like it'd make Colossus a little too easy to deal with at high levels. Not sure. I don't think I can make a judgement without a test map being made/played.
Changes like this could make the colossus more exciting though you are definately overnerfing it reducing it's attack speed by that much. I think it's a shame they ever gave the colossus an attack of 15x2 instead of the 20x2 it had before because that made it useful for harass.
Besides that I don't agree with you at all and think the colossus is the WORST designed unit of the game. The cliff walker mechanism is the coolest innovation they provided for sc2, in theory it's a really cool mobility in between flying and normal units. The colossus however is a cliffwalker that can also be hit by air which entirely mitigates the point of it being a cliffwalker, you rarely see the colossus being a cliffwalker actually being used because it's countered by units with equal or even greater mobility anyway.. The cliffwalking aspect is only used to make it a bit easier to micro now as it can walk over your own units and terrain but rarely in an interesting way. Even worse the colossus is a super strong unit which is entirely balanced around the fact it has super strong airborne counters. The viking and corruptor are basically tailor fit to be the counter to the colossus, if they were ground to air there would be some cool positioning at least but that was probably not easy to balance as the colossus would be able to hit them back. The result of the colossus is that basically all ways to counter air in this game are by making anti-air flying units yourself.. This is a TERRIBLE design because it takes away any interesting positional play. Air vs Air is the most boring scenario there is because it plays out the same way regardless of map plus it tends to be very chaotic since air units stack anyway. Even worse the super high damage air does against air makes the fight super short.
Basically the colossus neccesitates the power of the viking and corruptor. This means that the cliffwalking ability of the colossus is never used AND capital air except the broodlord is never used.. Colossi also take away almost any action in the game because by making them your opponent will get anti-air which also stops any drop play.. At the same time it leads to deathball play because the colossus needs to be supported by the stalkers as it's actually really fragile on it's own.
This game would have been MUCH better if they had never decided to go with the colossus, viking and corruptor because they are such bland units. Air to air are the most boring design in all of RTS and need to be unique in some way that prevents boring air battles, for example they should have AoE or interesting abilities at least. Even better is to design the game so that many air units need to be countered by ground units instead of air as that provides interesting positional play. The colossus design is responsible for the carrier and BC seeing almost no use and protoss using such deathball play. Yet they again decided to present an air unit to 'fix' the colossus problem in PvP.. Blizzard just doesn't learn from their mistakes..
On November 30 2012 22:22 Markwerf wrote: Changes like this could make the colossus more exciting though you are definately overnerfing it reducing it's attack speed by that much. I think it's a shame they ever gave the colossus an attack of 15x2 instead of the 20x2 it had before because that made it useful for harass.
Besides that I don't agree with you at all and think the colossus is the WORST designed unit of the game. The cliff walker mechanism is the coolest innovation they provided for sc2, in theory it's a really cool mobility in between flying and normal units. The colossus however is a cliffwalker that can also be hit by air which entirely mitigates the point of it being a cliffwalker, you rarely see the colossus being a cliffwalker actually being used because it's countered by units with equal or even greater mobility anyway.. The cliffwalking aspect is only used to make it a bit easier to micro now as it can walk over your own units and terrain but rarely in an interesting way. Even worse the colossus is a super strong unit which is entirely balanced around the fact it has super strong airborne counters. The viking and corruptor are basically tailor fit to be the counter to the colossus, if they were ground to air there would be some cool positioning at least but that was probably not easy to balance as the colossus would be able to hit them back. The result of the colossus is that basically all ways to counter air in this game are by making anti-air flying units yourself.. This is a TERRIBLE design because it takes away any interesting positional play. Air vs Air is the most boring scenario there is because it plays out the same way regardless of map plus it tends to be very chaotic since air units stack anyway. Even worse the super high damage air does against air makes the fight super short.
Basically the colossus neccesitates the power of the viking and corruptor. This means that the cliffwalking ability of the colossus is never used AND capital air except the broodlord is never used.. Colossi also take away almost any action in the game because by making them your opponent will get anti-air which also stops any drop play.. At the same time it leads to deathball play because the colossus needs to be supported by the stalkers as it's actually really fragile on it's own.
This game would have been MUCH better if they had never decided to go with the colossus, viking and corruptor because they are such bland units. Air to air are the most boring design in all of RTS and need to be unique in some way that prevents boring air battles, for example they should have AoE or interesting abilities at least. Even better is to design the game so that many air units need to be countered by ground units instead of air as that provides interesting positional play. The colossus design is responsible for the carrier and BC seeing almost no use and protoss using such deathball play. Yet they again decided to present an air unit to 'fix' the colossus problem in PvP.. Blizzard just doesn't learn from their mistakes..
Well said. This really sums it all up. Someone at Blizzard should get a clue already.
My personal problem with the colossus has always been that it is way too mobile. I think it should be made slower, beefier, and unable to walk over units and cliffs. God knows it has a long enough range that it can afford to sit at the back of an army anyway, and that would at least make it susceptible to flanking. It is one of the only units that can't be killed by being isolated and surrounded, because it can just waltz away into its stalker deathball.
On October 19 2012 07:30 Fungal Growth wrote: The one weakness that the colossi has is that it is vulnerable to air-to-air units...but this is too simplistic. If you don't have vikings/corrupters, then colossi are OP. If you have enough than colossi are too weak.
This rewards boring build order wins and deathballs. The colossi needs to lose it's ridiculous air weakness, while getting nerfed on the ground to make the game more dynamic. In most RTS games ranged units are NOT mobile...and for good reason. Mobile ranged units = unstoppable deathballs that need equally ridiculous counters. The colossi is too fast. Not only in its base movement speed, but also in its ability to step on units and over cliffs. Nerfing it's mobility should be priority #1. Then, thermal lance needs to be reduced....this way the colossi can still be a great unit again say mass zergling/marine, but not an untouchable unit that requires specialty counter units (vikings/corrupter).
The reaver is an example of what robo units should be. In that it has a huge weakness in it's mobility encourages strategic variation and discourages deathballs.
They are never really that weak unless you have like 30 vikings, in which case your ground army is going to get raped.
Not true, in general, unless the protoss player has 4-5 collosi or more, a cloud of 10-15 vikings will make a purely collosus powered army melt. This is why a lot of high level protoss players in WoL prefer templar to collosi, because the collosus being effective is based on unit composition rather than micro (yes, there is stuff like shooting vikings with a small group of stalkers, or positioning vikings over a ledge, but at leagues lower than masters or diamond, micro involved in this is minimal), whereas 15+ vikings will basically make building collosus more or less a waste of money, templar can still be devastating even if there are a lot of ghosts.
On December 03 2012 07:15 PVJ wrote: Sorry, don't know where's the main hub of this project, so I'm gonna post here: Is this already published on EU?
It isn't quite published yet, but we should have a version that is playable and ready for testing in the upcoming weeks. We're just down to the HotS units and the muthaf*ckin' Raven.
Anyone have any good ideas for an autoturret replacement?
The perdition turret from the campaign would make an interesting replacement for the autoturret, but that role probably overlaps with the battle hellion (see how easily they could have fixed this game?).
Otherwise I would just make it cost less energy, or have more health, or make it last longer (i.e. make durable materials not an upgrade). This could allow them to actually force lost mining time, as well as work as temporary wall-offs while out on the field, in order to protect marines/marauders or tanks.
I think you need to lower the barrier for one raven, but you could make each one still cost quite a bit so getting many ravens isn't feasible (make it cost more supply, for example).
On December 03 2012 07:15 PVJ wrote: Sorry, don't know where's the main hub of this project, so I'm gonna post here: Is this already published on EU?
It isn't quite published yet, but we should have a version that is playable and ready for testing in the upcoming weeks. We're just down to the HotS units and the muthaf*ckin' Raven.
Anyone have any good ideas for an autoturret replacement?
On December 03 2012 07:15 PVJ wrote: Sorry, don't know where's the main hub of this project, so I'm gonna post here: Is this already published on EU?
It isn't quite published yet, but we should have a version that is playable and ready for testing in the upcoming weeks. We're just down to the HotS units and the muthaf*ckin' Raven.
Anyone have any good ideas for an autoturret replacement?
Irradiate, seriously. Such a fun spell.
Blizzard will not incorporate older spells. I have an idea, if I may. Give Raven a spell called 'Ingire Terra' (set earth on fire). The raven pours a canister of oil on the ground and lights it with fire. Units standing on top will be affected, and possibly burned to death if they don't escape. The fire diminishes as the oil is fully burned. This is an AoE spell of course, I think an area that affects up to 4 to 6 units could be enough.
This will give terran yet another tactical spell for controlling terrain. If used correctly, the terran can force the opponents army into an uncomfortable position. The damage done should be enough to scare a lesser army of weaker units, but shouldn't be too much of a threat to stronger armoured units. The exact damage for numbers, time, etc. can be decided after proper testing.
Well, that's my idea... I don't know if it adds to the spirit of terran's main theme.
On December 03 2012 07:15 PVJ wrote: Sorry, don't know where's the main hub of this project, so I'm gonna post here: Is this already published on EU?
It isn't quite published yet, but we should have a version that is playable and ready for testing in the upcoming weeks. We're just down to the HotS units and the muthaf*ckin' Raven.
Anyone have any good ideas for an autoturret replacement?
Irradiate, seriously. Such a fun spell.
Yeah, cast it on a unit and watch it how it dies slowly... SO MUCH FUN!
I love this idea. the 1/3 sec means that it will always hit the first few units so amazing micro won't just completely negate collosi play still( like it can pure baneling play nowadays ). But I'm just imagining the rush I would get trying to quickly move the last 4 or 5 units in the projected lance line as the lance slowly arcs across my units. Love the idea, would make fighting collosi similar to splitting against banelings which is challenging and fun every-time.
it seems to me right now meta-game wise that blizzard fixed the worst aspect of the colossus without changing it
the worst part was always pvp and its mindless unmicroable colossi wars, now tempests can snipe them late-game, and archons are easier to obtain and more massable while also massacring most ground units
A snore-fest of waffle which crescendos into one of the most annoying and faux-intellectual suggestions I've met in a long time.
It simply isn't true that the colossus is harming stargate play. Protoss doesn't go stargate in PvT because of the guaranteed presence of marines -- not because of the colossus. Stargate play is limited in PvZ and PvP because of infestors and stalkers respectively -- not the colossus. The unit is already hard-countered in WoL with one of the most absurdly "black-and-white" hard-counters in the game, and will be even more hard-countered in HotS by the viper. The tempest will stop "war of the worlds" from dominating PvP. Terran's bio gets a buff in HotS without any compensating buff to the colossus. Yet the author's suggestion is to nerf this unit which is already hard-countered in WoL and will be less powerful in HotS against vipers, tempests, and faster-healing bio.
Why does it always have to be Protoss that falls victim to this pseudo-intellectual nonsense? Imagine if I suggested lowering the rate of fire of the marine but keeping its DPS the same. NOBODY would countenance that proposal (no matter how fancy I dressed it up), even though it's no less questionable or superfluous than the one in the OP.
On December 17 2012 05:36 Rossie wrote: A snore-fest of waffle which crescendos into one of the most annoying and faux-intellectual suggestions I've met in a long time.
It simply isn't true that the colossus is harming stargate play. Protoss doesn't go stargate in PvT because of the guaranteed presence of marines -- not because of the colossus. Stargate play is limited in PvZ and PvP because of infestors and stalkers respectively -- not the colossus. The unit is already hard-countered in WoL with one of the most absurdly "black-and-white" hard-counters in the game, and will be even more hard-countered in HotS by the viper. The tempest will stop "war of the worlds" from dominating PvP. Terran's bio gets a buff in HotS without any compensating buff to the colossus. Yet the author's suggestion is to nerf this unit which is already hard-countered in WoL and will be less powerful in HotS against vipers, tempests, and faster-healing bio.
Why does it always have to be Protoss that falls victim to this pseudo-intellectual nonsense? Imagine if I suggested lowering the rate of fire of the marine but keeping its DPS the same. NOBODY would countenance that proposal (no matter how fancy I dressed it up), even though it's no less questionable or superfluous than the one in the OP.
Ok, you disagree with me, that is cool; please don't throw mud. It makes you seem like an immature person and doesn't impress anyone. What you say is correct, the threat of Marines AND Vikings makes it difficult to go Stargate. The Void Ray that OneGoal has been testing has helped with that. As for the Colossus, the old changes simply didn't work. The decreased fire speed made the unit unmicroable and ultimately more prone to amoving. We have opted for a different design for how the unit does damage where the Colossus targets a unit, and after a brief delay, the ground beneath the targeted unit explodes, doing a substantial amount of damage. This has made the colossus a great deal more dependent on skill while allowing things like bio and Hydra splits to mean something versus heavy robo play.
Colossus is the only unit I really would like to see removed from the game. Its not a nice unit for an rts game, its the ultimate skilless a-move unit making deathball play way too attractive. I understand why they want it for Protoss, it fits the super tech style of the race buts its a horrible unit lol.
On December 17 2012 07:53 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: This has made the colossus a great deal more dependent on skill while allowing things like bio and Hydra splits to mean something versus heavy robo play.
It is a dumb suggestion to the core, and you simply haven't given a good reason for why Protoss is so imba that the game would be helped by the absolute money-shot of a nerf that you propose.
It's common knowledge that in WoL, the immortal-sentry all-in is the only thing keeping win rates fairly even. In PvT, the balance seems to be swinging in favour of Terran now that they've figured out to kill their workers and get a 200 supply army. Naniwa said on his stream the other evening that he saw no way to beat that strategy. And that's WoL. In HotS, we have the viper and bio is stronger with no corresponding buff to colossi.
And you haven't explained why you're so intent on singling out one unit and one race. Almost every unit in the game can be turned into a more skill-based unit somehow. What about marines? Why not nerf their anti-air capabilities, so Terran doesn't have an easy T1 answer to everything? What about roaches, which are basically A-move units -- possibly the least skill-demanding in the entire game? Why demand yet more micro of a race that ALREADY requires far more micro than Zerg, and is the only race in the game where your army instantly evaporates if you lose a few T3 units?
On December 03 2012 07:15 PVJ wrote: Sorry, don't know where's the main hub of this project, so I'm gonna post here: Is this already published on EU?
It isn't quite published yet, but we should have a version that is playable and ready for testing in the upcoming weeks. We're just down to the HotS units and the muthaf*ckin' Raven.
Anyone have any good ideas for an autoturret replacement?
Irradiate, seriously. Such a fun spell.
Blizzard will not incorporate older spells. I have an idea, if I may. Give Raven a spell called 'Ingire Terra' (set earth on fire). The raven pours a canister of oil on the ground and lights it with fire. Units standing on top will be affected, and possibly burned to death if they don't escape. The fire diminishes as the oil is fully burned. This is an AoE spell of course, I think an area that affects up to 4 to 6 units could be enough.
This will give terran yet another tactical spell for controlling terrain. If used correctly, the terran can force the opponents army into an uncomfortable position. The damage done should be enough to scare a lesser army of weaker units, but shouldn't be too much of a threat to stronger armoured units. The exact damage for numbers, time, etc. can be decided after proper testing.
Well, that's my idea... I don't know if it adds to the spirit of terran's main theme.
Call it Scorched Earth and I'm all for it
Edit: Replace the Seeker missile for the new ability.
On December 25 2012 22:53 bhfberserk wrote: Do we have any official blizzard words on a re-work colossus??? Instead of focusing on the fungal growth, they really need to look at colossus...
OP's idea is a really good start.
You're right. Instead of focusing on a unit that dominates all THREE matchups. Lets look at a unit that's being almost completely overshadowed in hots by better units. I agree the colossus is a terrible unit design, but it's better in almost every matchup at the moment to go skytoss than it is to go groundtoss.
:o but colossus are awesome. I can see what you mean though but their countered and can be dealt with. Having air or even for zerg the viper. But the mobile part about colossus is that there slow and in proper engagements but even that is hard since colo are anti ALL ground
Colossus is so boring to watch now.. A change that promotes more micro from both the attacker and defender is definitely better design. However, I worry that Blizz wasn't the Collosus noob friendly. They are making strong counters to the Colossus to make it less viable but not decreasing its strength and ease of use..
For people arguing against this change, no one is arguing that the colossus is too good and is breaking the game. They are simply arguing that the colossus is leading to a more boring game, specifically in the type of response it requires from the opponent.
On December 25 2012 16:44 acrimoneyius wrote: Just noticed this thread. It boggles my mind why Blizzard continues to ignore great ideas from the community such as this one.
I asked DB about it on twitter (been abusing the fact that i finally have a kinda direct outlet to the devs :D) He responded that they might concider.
its not much but its something. Things like this (simply saying that Blizz conciders) gives me a lot of hope. I think there would be a lot less Balance outrage if Blizzard was giving Information about their thought process more commonly (getting way better since HotS beta though)
Edit: What would you guys think about making the colosus attack in a vertical line from itself instead of horizontal. Like it still has its range but instead of starting at range 9 (or enything under that) and then going right or left it now starts range seven (or enything below) and moves up by 2 range (kinda like a hellion shot that starts after a certain range)
Why i think this is a good and applicable change:
First of all the current colosus attack punishes/ negates. positioning and micro . I cant split vs it and if i surround i give the colosus more surface area to attack. This makes the attack really boring and incredibly strong. Also this makes the colosus require little to no micro because its almost guaranteed to do a lot of damage. Most importantly however is the fact that the current colosus is strongest when its right in the middle of your army I feel like thats the biggest reason (next to FFs) why Protoss is a deathball clump race in the lategame.
My change does some stuff to counteract this: 1. You can now "counter" the new colo by splitting your units and having good positioning/ surrounds 2. The colosus now is most effective when its ouside your army on the flanks of your enemys army. this could potentially solve most of the deathball problems with protoss as it would allow for some rebalancing (obviously the colosus numbers must be adjusted accordingly with this change)
On December 25 2012 16:44 acrimoneyius wrote: Just noticed this thread. It boggles my mind why Blizzard continues to ignore great ideas from the community such as this one.
I asked DB about it on twitter (been abusing the fact that i finally have a kinda direct outlet to the devs :D) He responded that they might concider.
its not much but its something. Things like this (simply saying that Blizz conciders) gives me a lot of hope. I think there would be a lot less Balance outrage if Blizzard was giving Information about their thought process more commonly (getting way better since HotS beta though)
Edit: What would you guys think about making the colosus attack in a vertical line from itself instead of horizontal. Like it still has its range but instead of starting at range 9 (or enything under that) and then going right or left it now starts range seven (or enything below) and moves up by 2 range (kinda like a hellion shot that starts after a certain range)
Why i think this is a good and applicable change:
First of all the current colosus attack punishes/ negates. positioning and micro . I cant split vs it and if i surround i give the colosus more surface area to attack. This makes the attack really boring and incredibly strong. Also this makes the colosus require little to no micro because its almost guaranteed to do a lot of damage. Most importantly however is the fact that the current colosus is strongest when its right in the middle of your army I feel like thats the biggest reason (next to FFs) why Protoss is a deathball clump race in the lategame.
My change does some stuff to counteract this: 1. You can now "counter" the new colo by splitting your units and having good positioning/ surrounds 2. The colosus now is most effective when its ouside your army on the flanks of your enemys army. this could potentially solve most of the deathball problems with protoss as it would allow for some rebalancing (obviously the colosus numbers must be adjusted accordingly with this change)
Would love to hear your feedback,
This idea has been brought up before and without making significant changes to the Colossus is absolutely terrible. The Protoss Deathball exists for a reason, Toss units are strongest when they are grouped together. A Colossus away from the main army is normally going to be a dead Colossus. It can't run away from Vikings/Corruptors since they are flying, necessitating a guard force for them, which means a ball of Stalkers. However, Stalkers really aren't that great AA so you need them bunched up too in order to be effective, so either you leave some Colossi exposed or all Colossi under defended. Now, if you remove the Colossus weakness to air, then maybe this idea could work, but you'd likely need to nerf Colossus health too while you're at it. It just is too many changes.
On December 25 2012 16:44 acrimoneyius wrote: Just noticed this thread. It boggles my mind why Blizzard continues to ignore great ideas from the community such as this one.
I asked DB about it on twitter (been abusing the fact that i finally have a kinda direct outlet to the devs :D) He responded that they might concider.
its not much but its something. Things like this (simply saying that Blizz conciders) gives me a lot of hope. I think there would be a lot less Balance outrage if Blizzard was giving Information about their thought process more commonly (getting way better since HotS beta though)
Edit: What would you guys think about making the colosus attack in a vertical line from itself instead of horizontal. Like it still has its range but instead of starting at range 9 (or enything under that) and then going right or left it now starts range seven (or enything below) and moves up by 2 range (kinda like a hellion shot that starts after a certain range)
Why i think this is a good and applicable change:
First of all the current colosus attack punishes/ negates. positioning and micro . I cant split vs it and if i surround i give the colosus more surface area to attack. This makes the attack really boring and incredibly strong. Also this makes the colosus require little to no micro because its almost guaranteed to do a lot of damage. Most importantly however is the fact that the current colosus is strongest when its right in the middle of your army I feel like thats the biggest reason (next to FFs) why Protoss is a deathball clump race in the lategame.
My change does some stuff to counteract this: 1. You can now "counter" the new colo by splitting your units and having good positioning/ surrounds 2. The colosus now is most effective when its ouside your army on the flanks of your enemys army. this could potentially solve most of the deathball problems with protoss as it would allow for some rebalancing (obviously the colosus numbers must be adjusted accordingly with this change)
Would love to hear your feedback,
This idea has been brought up before and without making significant changes to the Colossus is absolutely terrible. The Protoss Deathball exists for a reason, Toss units are strongest when they are grouped together. A Colossus away from the main army is normally going to be a dead Colossus. It can't run away from Vikings/Corruptors since they are flying, necessitating a guard force for them, which means a ball of Stalkers. However, Stalkers really aren't that great AA so you need them bunched up too in order to be effective, so either you leave some Colossi exposed or all Colossi under defended. Now, if you remove the Colossus weakness to air, then maybe this idea could work, but you'd likely need to nerf Colossus health too while you're at it. It just is too many changes.
Ofcourse you need to make significant changes overall, most importantly make toss less topheavy (make gateway units usefull in mid/lategame) Thing is Blizzard wont redesign units entierly while making slight design adjustments and balance adjustments seems more possible. I feel like the current implementation of the Colosus is terrible for the game, to look and watch. Protoss is heavily dependant (especially PvT) on the Colosus (and Templar) which forces the oponent into one specific hard counter (viking Corrupter) and as soon as the High tech of Protoss is gone, the Army is worth shit. My idea was rather to make the colosus go more to the side which would force the entire protoss army to spread out more to protect the outer colossi (and adjust balance accordingly)
but it what makes it protoss it how it does 16 damage per attack
I think u need to rephrase that I think it's a great idea though to have them do a short chargeup or perhaps make the lasers projectiles instead. Everything that rewards good micro is great imo
EPT
