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On December 14 2012 01:09 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 19:13 Everlong wrote:On December 13 2012 19:02 Dvriel wrote:
P doesnt need Immortals or Tempest to beat Mech Terran.The Ball of Chargelots/blinkstalkers/Colosi/Hts is enough.Storms for vikings,cahrgelots for tanks and thors,stalkers for tanks/thors/hellbats and colosi just kill all.When you go out of storms, just make them archons with bonus damage to hellbats.So nice.And guess what???Colossi and Tempest DONT NEED TO SIEGE to do max damage.They move all arround together and if you dare to move,you die... That is just not true. Why do you make up things? HT's won't storm Vikings if Terran is at least diamond/master level. If there are 4-5+ siege tanks, you will not storm nearly anything. The new Hellbat/Thor basically melts all gateway units (no exception), so with basic upgraded Hellbat/Thor/Tank army you will not lose to standard Zealot/Stalker/Collosus/Ht.. You only need to watch out for 2 things - mass immortals and air.. Otherwise, mech is perfectly playable. The mass immortal "gimmick" you scout and counter by adding few ghosts. The air transition you scout and counter by reactored starports + Thors. BC's are not allowed now. just watched drewbie got his mech army/vikings got stormed trying to engage the tempest ball.
That looked alot like one of my games. Saddest part is you can't even reliably counter the Storm you have to hope for good EMP ( good luck against big range tempest... ) or you just gets obliterated . I mean even without Storms it's hard with them you might as well not even try. Unlike Bio Mech has no chance of not getting hit by Storm and 80 is still substantial and you Mech units don't get healed from a bit behind unlike Bio.
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We suck again !!! ~~ No idea how to play mech TvP again, so 3base 2/2 push anyone ?
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Such a happy Terran, Thors High Impact Paylord now prioritise Collosus over their ground weapons <3 Not sure if this change was made due to my post on EU Bnet or not but either way, happy Terran is happy, now about my warhound replacement...
In short, no more useless vikings in TvP if you mech. Infact, I'd be happy to have Vikings removed all together in trade for another Mech unit. (Ok kinda messes up TvT with Battlecruisers but other than that Thors seem better in everyway, altho Thors kiting battlecrusiers is one of the funniest things.)
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mech is fine after beta patch 8
thors dont have energy anymore. Mass thor is very very good. Once you hit 'critical mass' thor doesn't get as hardcountered as they used to. Less tanks, more thors and hellbats.
The best games ive played since last patch have been 45 min+ tvp mech games. And ive won some and lost some. Its not nearly as bad as people are still making it out to be. Mech users aren't transitioning into skyterran like they are supposed to be.
Either get ghosts lategame, or transition into BC's. Dont give me 'gas is an issue'. I play the most expensive race in the game, gas is an issue for me as much as it is for you.
There will always be better unit comps to counter mech, its still viable though. If you see a complete tempest/vr army, make something else lol. Dont force a build order loss and then claim imbalance.
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On December 14 2012 03:14 ohampatu wrote:
mech is fine after beta patch 8
thors dont have energy anymore. Mass thor is very very good. Once you hit 'critical mass' thor doesn't get as hardcountered as they used to. Less tanks, more thors and hellbats.
The best games ive played since last patch have been 45 min+ tvp mech games. And ive won some and lost some. Its not nearly as bad as people are still making it out to be. Mech users aren't transitioning into skyterran like they are supposed to be.
Either get ghosts lategame, or transition into BC's. Dont give me 'gas is an issue'. I play the most expensive race in the game, gas is an issue for me as much as it is for you.
There will always be better unit comps to counter mech, its still viable though. If you see a complete tempest/vr army, make something else lol. Dont force a build order loss and then claim imbalance.
Sorry, but I'm pretty sure you haven't faced Tempests with Battle Cruisers yet, otherwise you would've never suggested going BCs.
Gas is not the issue. Actually TvP is playable, you only need to catch the air transition and not die to blink/msc allin, then you are fine.
I'm trying to figure out, how to deal with Vipers effectively now that Vikings are 0/3 and Vipers WILL cast their Clouds and you WILL lose your army lol..
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As i said 'dont force yourself into a build order loss'.
If protoss is going skytoss, mech into bc's is not your ideal comp. Your giving yourself a build order loss. Mech works fine against every other unit comp in the game though. If we are going charge/archon/'immortal, then you should be getting bc's and/or banshees to compliment your comp (and ghosts).
If there are no tempests, go ghosts/bc's lategame. If there are tempests, transition into Mass Thor/Hellbats.
Its rock paper scissors. Certain comps beat other comps. You can't expect mech to beat every single comp we have. Viable doesn't mean 'always work'.
I agree widowmine needs some help lategame though, the problem is widow mines are overpowered for the first 6 minutes of the game, then drastically lose effectiveness. New thor though is a step in right direction, and tempest nerf helps even more.
edit: you also need to do economic damage during the game. Every terran I play is not trying to drop hellbats or widowmines or pressure me at all. When you let me go up to 6 bases to your 3/4, your gonna have a bad time. Even if we stop the drop 4/5 times, that 1 time we miss it can easily be 15+ workers in a couple of seconds.
tldr: dont force inferior unit comps, remember mech has multiple unit comps that work in certain situations
2nd edit: and i have a hardtime feeling bad about the terran qq because they aren't doing the above things, especially when they can win the game at the 5 minute mark with widowmines against any opening thats not 2 gate/robo.
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Has anyone had any success with incorporating some kind of semi heavy raven mech play vs immortals in the mid/early late game?
I was thinking of whether one could open lighter on siege tanks /heavier on hellions/mines), and close to like 1 raven for each immortal instead. Has anyone been experimenting with this?
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On December 14 2012 03:14 ohampatu wrote:
mech is fine after beta patch 8
thors dont have energy anymore. Mass thor is very very good. Once you hit 'critical mass' thor doesn't get as hardcountered as they used to. Less tanks, more thors and hellbats.
The best games ive played since last patch have been 45 min+ tvp mech games. And ive won some and lost some. Its not nearly as bad as people are still making it out to be. Mech users aren't transitioning into skyterran like they are supposed to be.
Either get ghosts lategame, or transition into BC's. Dont give me 'gas is an issue'. I play the most expensive race in the game, gas is an issue for me as much as it is for you.
There will always be better unit comps to counter mech, its still viable though. If you see a complete tempest/vr army, make something else lol. Dont force a build order loss and then claim imbalance.
it's been discussed priorly. But "we" don't care about whether mass thors are viable or not. Mass thors are boring. We want the "control-space" element that tanks has to be viable.
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@Hider...
I haven't seen it too often. But i agree thor/hellion is much better than the super tank heavy people are doing. Good idea. We need more time imo to test all the unit comp's mech offers.
edit: what 'we' want doesn't matter. game balance and blizzards pov is what matters.
Sorry you want to mass a single unit and call it mech and win. It's not gonna happen. Ive been trying to give sound advice, dont troll me please if your not even reading what i say
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On December 14 2012 03:35 ohampatu wrote:
@Hider...
I haven't seen it too often. But i agree thor/hellion is much better than the super tank heavy people are doing. Good idea. We need more time imo to test all the unit comp's mech offers.
edit: what 'we' want doesn't matter. game balance and blizzards pov is what matters.
Sorry you want to mass a single unit and call it mech and win. It's not gonna happen. Ive been trying to give sound advice, dont troll me please if your not even reading what i say
The issue is that everyone has ever played SC knows this:Mech play in TvP got TANK as CORE UNIT.This will never change.Massing thors is the same as massing Warhounds and we all know what happened to this unit...Go check some pages before and you will see what is mech about.Blizzard still know mech is not viable and they are supposed to try make it work,but for now is a disaster.
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On December 14 2012 03:42 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 03:35 ohampatu wrote:
@Hider...
I haven't seen it too often. But i agree thor/hellion is much better than the super tank heavy people are doing. Good idea. We need more time imo to test all the unit comp's mech offers.
edit: what 'we' want doesn't matter. game balance and blizzards pov is what matters.
Sorry you want to mass a single unit and call it mech and win. It's not gonna happen. Ive been trying to give sound advice, dont troll me please if your not even reading what i say The issue is that everyone has ever played SC knows this:Mech play in TvP got TANK as CORE UNIT.This will never change.Massing thors is the same as massing Warhounds and we all know what happened to this unit...Go check some pages before and you will see what is mech about.Blizzard still know mech is not viable and they are supposed to try make it work,but for now is a disaster.
Has Blizzard actually stated that they know mech TvP doesn't work after update 8?
I'm thinking Blizzard will be slowly backing out of making it viable.
They were already preparing excuses after warhound removal.
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On December 14 2012 03:35 ohampatu wrote:
@Hider...
I haven't seen it too often. But i agree thor/hellion is much better than the super tank heavy people are doing. Good idea. We need more time imo to test all the unit comp's mech offers.
edit: what 'we' want doesn't matter. game balance and blizzards pov is what matters.
Sorry you want to mass a single unit and call it mech and win. It's not gonna happen. Ive been trying to give sound advice, dont troll me please if your not even reading what i say
Thors are boring. Just a slow "a-moving" unit. They make for noninteresting game. Tanks on the other hand (if they balanced) creates an extremely interesting dynamic. Honestly I dont see any point in testing thor heavy strategies (if you are playing for the "long term". If its OP it gets nerfed. If it is balanced, so what? Why not just play bio. At leats with bio you are mobile and can drop which is kinda funny.
Currently I think we are left with 2 choices:
1) Tank/raven/hellion
2) Tank/raven/ghosts
Maybe mixed with a couple of thors and mines.
The second option works okay'ish but it requires a shitton of turtling (way way too much) and creates uninteresting games (lyyna tvp mech = boring to play against and to watch).
WIth ravens on the other hand I think terrans could possible get a strong army a bit quicker (like having 4-7 ravens along with your mech army). Not sure though and it requires some testing.
And if terran actually can beat the toss at the 15-20 min mark then this will forc toss do harasss and disrupt the terran for getting the strong mech army which creates interesting games.
IF toss on the otehr hand can just 1a roflstomp mech then we will get back to boring turtling games.
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1. Hellbats were indirectly buffed by the medivak buff, this completely nullifies chargelots, the 1 unit terran says beats mech apart from immortals.
2. Blizzard has said they are still thinking of an option to counter the immortal.
3. Thors dont have energy anymore.
4. No terran is using skyterran correctly as a transition.
It can be a core unit. That doesn't mean you need more than 10 or so when your meching. All im saying is that thors/hellbats as the main core work perfectly fine. Maybe you should change your complaints to 'tanks dont work in tvp', because that seems to be your issue.
No terrans are exploring ravens like they should be yet, maybe its the game balance, maybe they still need buffs.
All im saying is some of you are arguing that you should be able to do a 'build order loss' and it be viable. Certain comps will beat mech, blizz isn't gonna make it unbeatable. They are actively trying to make mech work, and its really really close to being perfect, it doesn't fall off untill super super lategame.
Stay calm, explore the other units mech offers apart from just tanks/vikings. Before beta patch there were numerous terrans providing replays and saying it was working for them at a GM level. All im saying is some of you QQ is pointless. You can keep nitpicking a single sentence in every post I make. Kinda funny that TL is now worse than Battle.net Forums, you listen even less than they do. Beta patch hasn't even been out 2 weeks. Nobody should even be bitching untill they have lost 100 games or more in mech tvp, which most of you haven't.
You terrans keep telling toss how to l2p against the new medivak, but wont listen when we say it to you. You really are the spoiled child of blizzard. There are soo many lategame unit comps you guys aren't even attempting to test out. And as I stated, you all stopped harrassing. Just way to many issues from the players before you can claim imbalance. Its just like it took zerg a year to figure out how good the inefestor was. Your stuck in your old ways. You can win the game in the first 5 minutes with widow mines, or the first 10 mins with the dual medivak push, yet you still always want more ways to win without it being 'difficult'. Keep forcing build order losses and not learning how to transition into better unit comps, that'll get ya somewhere.
edit: and the whole 'its boring' complaint is really getting outahand. Half of my units are pretty boring too, doesn't mean the balance isn't there
keep beta testing. its a BETA, and blizz has said their are other options they are exploring so that you can have your way. the race with the best economy, best tech paths, and most unit comps in the game..yet your all stuck on wanting to just mass tanks lol
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On December 14 2012 03:49 ohampatu wrote:
1. Hellbats were indirectly buffed by the medivak buff, this completely nullifies chargelots, the 1 unit terran says beats mech apart from immortals.
2. Blizzard has said they are still thinking of an option to counter the immortal.
3. Thors dont have energy anymore.
4. No terran is using skyterran correctly as a transition.
It can be a core unit. That doesn't mean you need more than 10 or so when your meching. All im saying is that thors/hellbats as the main core work perfectly fine. Maybe you should change your complaints to 'tanks dont work in tvp', because that seems to be your issue.
No terrans are exploring ravens like they should be yet, maybe its the game balance, maybe they still need buffs.
All im saying is some of you are arguing that you should be able to do a 'build order loss' and it be viable. Certain comps will beat mech, blizz isn't gonna make it unbeatable. They are actively trying to make mech work, and its really really close to being perfect, it doesn't fall off untill super super lategame.
Stay calm, explore the other units mech offers apart from just tanks/vikings. Before beta patch there were numerous terrans providing replays and saying it was working for them at a GM level. All im saying is some of you QQ is pointless. You can keep nitpicking a single sentence in every post I make. Kinda funny that TL is now worse than Battle.net Forums, you listen even less than they do. Beta patch hasn't even been out 2 weeks. Nobody should even be bitching untill they have lost 100 games or more in mech tvp, which most of you haven't.
You terrans keep telling toss how to l2p against the new medivak, but wont listen when we say it to you. You really are the spoiled child of blizzard. There are soo many lategame unit comps you guys aren't even attempting to test out. And as I stated, you all stopped harrassing. Just way to many issues from the players before you can claim imbalance. Its just like it took zerg a year to figure out how good the inefestor was. Your stuck in your old ways. You can win the game in the first 5 minutes with widow mines, or the first 10 mins with the dual medivak push, yet you still always want more ways to win without it being 'difficult'. Keep forcing build order losses and not learning how to transition into better unit comps, that'll get ya somewhere.
Link?
Also, the archon is very good against mech.
Regarding the rest of your posts I have explained why it is close to pointless to explore other mech units than tanks (though skyterran can be entertaining as well).
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Im looking for the link. I believe they said they wanted hellions to dps immortals slightly better, but still looking for it.
Maybe ive missed the 'explanations'. Mostly all i see is 'it doesn't work because of x unit'. Which is an infallible argument that can't be beat. But i could do the same.
You terrans complained about chargelots and immortals. Now you hardcounter chargelots, and mech handles immortals just fine with ghosts. Im sorry, but all i see is 'it needs to be easier to mech'. If you land emps good, you can handle almost any unit comp not involving tempests. Idk how mech handles tempests, but it seems blizzard is nerfing them to make up for it. Thor should fight the tempests quite well now if you can get in range. And im sure they will nerf the tempest even more. If i find the link i'll edit/update.
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On December 14 2012 03:29 ohampatu wrote:
As i said 'dont force yourself into a build order loss'.
If protoss is going skytoss, mech into bc's is not your ideal comp. Your giving yourself a build order loss. Mech works fine against every other unit comp in the game though. If we are going charge/archon/'immortal, then you should be getting bc's and/or banshees to compliment your comp (and ghosts).
If there are no tempests, go ghosts/bc's lategame. If there are tempests, transition into Mass Thor/Hellbats.
Its rock paper scissors. Certain comps beat other comps. You can't expect mech to beat every single comp we have. Viable doesn't mean 'always work'.
I agree widowmine needs some help lategame though, the problem is widow mines are overpowered for the first 6 minutes of the game, then drastically lose effectiveness. New thor though is a step in right direction, and tempest nerf helps even more.
edit: you also need to do economic damage during the game. Every terran I play is not trying to drop hellbats or widowmines or pressure me at all. When you let me go up to 6 bases to your 3/4, your gonna have a bad time. Even if we stop the drop 4/5 times, that 1 time we miss it can easily be 15+ workers in a couple of seconds.
tldr: dont force inferior unit comps, remember mech has multiple unit comps that work in certain situations
2nd edit: and i have a hardtime feeling bad about the terran qq because they aren't doing the above things, especially when they can win the game at the 5 minute mark with widowmines against any opening thats not 2 gate/robo.
Now that carriers can be micro'ed properly like they could be in BW they would just start making those if they see Thors. I really am convinced that there is NO way for Terran to beat that super air army from Protoss.
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@ohampatu
Thor is the unit we make to try counter air toss,but with more HP than Viking.Now with Tempest Carrier even this wont work.
What Sky Terran vs Protoss,if Tempest do 80 Damage to BC????Really?
My issue will still "tanks doesnt work" because Mech is all about positional play with siege tanks.Its not my fault that all your siege units can walk or fly!!!
I will keep qq till seeing TvP Mech works in GSL or any other big tournament.If Lyyna or Morrow can do it on ladder,doesnt mean it is viable.A playstyle is viable only if you can win at 50% of your games and it depends of your enemies and skill.Morrow actually quit HotS because of frustration of Mech TvP.In ladder nobody use it.
WE terrans arent telling you how to play vs new medivac.You already got all the tools you need to stop it: Observer,Pylon,free Hallu for scout,cannons,HTs+feedback/storm,blinkstalkers and warp in everyone of your bases.Do you need more?
We Terrans dont want to win the game in the first 5 or 10 mins.We got the 2rax to do this as MVP showed,but is a cheese.I want to be able to win past 15 min.Actually is almost impossible in TvP mech.
Blizz nerfing Tempest???When?As we see now it outranges everything T got and the problem is that if you are able to kill 13 immortals with EMPs+tanks the immediate warpin of 20 chargelots kills all your army and it takes ages to recover.Also Archons and HTs counter pretty well all this Hellbats.
Just provide us replays of Pros winning TvP with mech and we will close this thread.
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Terran is the only race without any kind of reliable longer range AoE damage to air. Which means a big air fleet where you can't really focus fire anymore will just obliterate Terran. Terran has way way way too much single target damage. Which makes Terran great in smaller fights in big battle on the other hand no so much. Instead of makes the Seeker Missile a useful area of effect spell they made it a very into another single target spell which Terran has way too much of already.
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Yea this is my last post. I sit there and talk about tempest prolly needing nerfs and giving other examples, you again just cite that. Not a single person is talking coherently or objectively. You use infallible arguments and ignore what other people say. The 2 units you guys have bitched about for 2 years: Chargelot and Immortal.
Chargelots: countered by hellbats
Immortal: countered by ghosts.
Both of these units are in your aresenal, and are easy to use lategame, and compliment mech. Its not hard to blanket an entire protoss army with emps.
The only unit you guys can currently bitch about is the tempest. And it just got nerfed to not be affective vs ground massive targets. And it will prolly get nerfed again.
You guys are litterally complaining about every facet of protoss that exists. Its funny actually. Not even battle.net is complaining this much. @Dvriel. Why dont you go play protoss since you think every thing about our race beats yours. I dont even understand half of what you just typed, apart from 'i hate everything protoss'.
Widow Mines will be buffed. Tempests will be nerfed. While your waiting for those two things, try to actually use diverse unit comps. QQQQQ isn't going to fix your problems.
@serp..vikings/ravens still beat any other 'air fleet' possible. Nobody has as good AA as the viking. Now once toss adds in storm you have to add in emps. If you dont, then yea, storm+air will decimate you.
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On December 14 2012 04:51 ohampatu wrote:
Yea this is my last post. I sit there and talk about tempest prolly needing nerfs and giving other examples, you again just cite that. Not a single person is talking coherently or objectively. You use infallible arguments and ignore what other people say. The 2 units you guys have bitched about for 2 years: Chargelot and Immortal.
Chargelots: countered by hellbats
Immortal: countered by ghosts.
Both of these units are in your aresenal, and are easy to use lategame, and compliment mech. Its not hard to blanket an entire protoss army with emps.
The only unit you guys can currently bitch about is the tempest. And it just got nerfed to not be affective vs ground massive targets. And it will prolly get nerfed again.
You guys are litterally complaining about every facet of protoss that exists. Its funny actually. Not even battle.net is complaining this much. @Dvriel. Why dont you go play protoss since you think every thing about our race beats yours. I dont even understand half of what you just typed, apart from 'i hate everything protoss'.
Widow Mines will be buffed. Tempests will be nerfed. While your waiting for those two things, try to actually use diverse unit comps. QQQQQ isn't going to fix your problems.
@serp..vikings/ravens still beat any other 'air fleet' possible. Nobody has as good AA as the viking. Now once toss adds in storm you have to add in emps. If you dont, then yea, storm+air will decimate you.
Yes, I agree with you..
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EPT
